China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

[ashi]

As a matter of fact, one of the correct things that China has done is start with coping/reverse engineering, and keep pursuing indigenization.

Yes. This has gone on from the 1950. The same copying. And China still has not caught up with Russia, let alone Sweden, France or USA.

What use is this copying? Talk about China. 60 plus years of Copying and still you have no engine. No non copied aircraft in service without significant foreign help. And a reputation that Indians are laughing at. Chinese just get upset at being laughed at and have to justify failures as successes. So stop bragging about a hole in your old underwear as if China designed it to be so.

Engine development is not up to par but use it as an example to prove all else China has fail is just laughable. Again how many countries can make an engine today? Less than a handful. China has made WS-10 which may not up to the western standard, but it powers J-11B currently. It may not have a good life span, more difficult to maintain, a bit under power, but if things come to all imported engines got cut off, we still have WS-10 to use. What have you got to laugh at us?

[ashi]

As a matter of fact, one of the correct things that China has done is start with coping/reverse engineering, and keep pursuing indigenization.

Some time back I was puttering around the net (with the help form Uncle google) and to my amazement I found out that China has been making engines (for aircrafts) and aircrafts since some 40-50s time frame!!!! Just check wiki. Mostly copies of Russian items, nonetheless making them. For 40-60 YEARS!!!!

Until the Israelis and French decided to pitch in China was in the dark ages.

The point I am trying to make is that China is STILL in the dark ages.

There is no way China, or any country for that matter, can catch up in such a short period of time without copying/reverse engineering.

China has nowhere close to “catch up”. Witness the new funds provided for engines (and rightly so). Witness China’s purchase of brand new Su-35s and plenty of engines for “her” planes!!! IF here J-20/31s, etc were THAT good, why would she buy more Su-35s? Because the PLAAF does not like the Chinese plans I bet.

A few decades ago, Japan/S.Korea were the synonym of cheap products and coping. Look where they are now.

In the commercial world Japan/SK are doing real great.

NOT in the military world. Both are still buying planes for their needs.

Of course they have the priviledge to buy technology from the west. China now in many areas still catching up, in many areas already have her own cutting edge invention. And how far has your technology transfer and local invention brought India to?

Does China really have cutting edge “inventions” or the ability to duplicate complicated stuff that they stole? IF it is the prior, well and good. Else you are stuck until the next hack.

India: ToT did get her technologies, but legal issues prevent her from using them elsewhere – which is where I think India is stuck. So, as an example, India seems to be able to make SCB, but the tech obtained from abroad can be used only for a certain product and not across the board.

I think/feel China is not in a great situation. Better than where she was about 10 years ago, but stuck where she is.

NRAO, it is your opinion that China has not caught up yet, but many respectable military observer would greatly disagree with you. Case in point, please look at Dr Carlo Kopp's analysis on J-20, J-10 and China's air power as a whole. China doesn't have her own technology? Beidou navigation systems which covers Asia Pacific region, its own rockets, space craft, J-20 etc etc . And the rate of churning out warships is just very impressive.

[prashanth]

Engine development is not up to par but use it as an example to prove all else China has fail is just laughable. Again how many countries can make an engine today? Less than a handful. China has made WS-10 which may not up to the western standard, but it powers J-11B currently. It may not have a good life span, more difficult to maintain, a bit under power, but if things come to all imported engines got cut off, we still have WS-10 to use. What have you got to laugh at us?

Kaveri. We choose not to use the engine in an aircraft before validating its performance completely. Moreover, we have access to many engines developed by foreign vendors, thanks to our diplomacy. And our forces will not accept an engine/aircraft unless it performs on par with the best available. This automatically ensures quality of our weapons.
If, as you say, WS10 has poor life span, is difficult to maintain and has bad performance why did China choose to use it in J11 at all? Just for public display on Republic day? Don't expect your enemy to withdraw from battle out of consideration for your under-performing engine. Your boasts about WS10, J-11,20,31 in an Indian forum will come to naught if the US decides to sell F-35s to Japan, South Korea and Taiwan in future.

[ashi]

Engine development is not up to par but use it as an example to prove all else China has fail is just laughable. Again how many countries can make an engine today? Less than a handful. China has made WS-10 which may not up to the western standard, but it powers J-11B currently. It may not have a good life span, more difficult to maintain, a bit under power, but if things come to all imported engines got cut off, we still have WS-10 to use. What have you got to laugh at us?

Kaveri. We choose not to use the engine in an aircraft before validating its performance completely. Moreover, we have access to many engines developed by foreign vendors, thanks to our diplomacy. And our forces will not accept an engine/aircraft unless it performs on par with the best available. This automatically ensures quality of our weapons.
If, as you say, WS10 has poor life span, is difficult to maintain and has bad performance why did China choose to use it in J11 at all? Just for public display on Republic day? Don't expect your enemy to withdraw from battle out of consideration for your under-performing engine. Your boasts about WS10, J-11,20,31 in an Indian forum will come to naught if the US decides to sell F-35s to Japan, South Korea and Taiwan in future.

What I said about WS10 is comparing to western and Russia engines. By your logic, Russian has no engines to use either since it has all those weakness comparing to what US has. WS-10 is usable, but still have a lot of room to improve. According to some estimates, there are around 200 WS-10 in service.

And not all the people have the confidence of F-35 will fare better than J-20/J-31.

[prashanth]

By your logic, Russian has no engines to use either since it has all those weakness comparing to what US has.

On the contrary, you are trying to compare WS10 with Russian engines, which is very unwise. With a T:W ratio of 10.5:1, and producing nearly 150kN thrust, their latest AL-41F1 engine is probably one of the best. That apart, their engines have proven their performance, operated reliably for several decades, and more importantly have been used in wars.

According to some estimates, there are around 200 WS-10 in service.

And how do they perform compared to Al-31?

And not all the people have the confidence of F-35 will fare better than J-20/J-31.

Only time will tell....

[shiv]

things come to all imported engines got cut off, we still have WS-10 to use. What have you got to laugh at us?

Your posts are a laugh because your typing fingers type faster than you think. You must have learned this logic from a Pakistani. "If I lose my arms and legs I will fight with my mouth"

If you have only WS 10 left 90% of your air force will be grounded.

[adityadange]

And not all the people have the confidence of F-35 will fare better than J-20/J-31.

ok but most of them have fair confidence that j-20/j-31 will perform worse than f-35. btw, where can i get performance figures of J-20/ j-31 to compare with f-35?

[NRao]

NRAO, it is your opinion that China has not caught up yet, but many respectable military observer would greatly disagree with you. Case in point, please look at Dr Carlo Kopp's analysis on J-20, J-10 and China's air power as a whole. China doesn't have her own technology? Beidou navigation systems which covers Asia Pacific region, its own rockets, space craft, J-20 etc etc . And the rate of churning out warships is just very impressive.

First of all I do not consider Kopp to be an expert - to me he is more of an alarmist (but he does get hold of great pictures for sure).

The J-series is my problem - as I have said many a times, since it is stolen technologies that China does not have an industrial base to manufacture the next gen. BTW, do you agree that a lot of the techs in China are stolen?

You have not responded to why China is still purchasing the Su-35 and plenty of Russian engines. Why are the Russians suddenly willing to sell China the Su-35? (I have one Russian's comments on it and it is not pretty for China - as I had suspected.)

Beidou, plenty of ships, etc - yes, it is impressive. My point being it is a flash in the pan. It should die out.

Alternative route to get energy - hogwash. China has made equally large number of enemies around the world. Check out the nations around China that could pose a problem for China.

Everything China has done is temporary in nature - everything. Even the relationships with various countries in the 'hood.

Yes, as we type a lot of things glitter. But, my point is that it cannot be sustained. That is all.

[shiv]

Boss. Let's get real. Let me use an analogy. Why would any man marry an ordinary woman and not Katrina Kaif or Deepika Padukone or Vidya Balan? Not because he did not like them, or that they rejected him first. The woman he married was the one who was there at the right time and place, ready to marry him when he was ready to marry.

It is totally pointless to say that J 20 will match F-35 etc.

Let us say a J-20 takes off to attack a ship. Are the Americans going to stand with binoculars and "Obesrver's Book of Aircraft" and say 'Hey that's a J-20, we gotta send an F-35 onlee"? No They will send what's available. So also the Chinese - they are not going to identify the aircraft first. In a conflict it hardly matters whether J-20 outperforms F-35 or vice versa. It is all about tactics, and availability for ops. If F-35 has 99 availability and J-20 has 20% availability then it will not matter one bit whether J-20 is better or worse.

The Americans openly say how reliable or unreliable their aircraft and systems were in a war. The Chinese say nothing. Saying nothing has its uses, but if they are only pretending that their stuff is reliable they they will back down from war. they will not fight it. Or they will get whupped.

[Don]

Russian pilots with J-20 Model note the internal weapons bay.

[Don]

A few J-10's in the background getting ready to be delivered.

[Don]

3 HN-10 cruise missiles and 1 DF-15 B not sure if they nuclear or conventional warheads.

[ashi]

The J-series is my problem - as I have said many a times, since it is stolen technologies that China does not have an industrial base to manufacture the next gen.

So J-20/J-31 is just mirage and all photo shop?

BTW, do you agree that a lot of the techs in China are stolen?

No. Some are from reverse engineering, which is also engineering.

You have not responded to why China is still purchasing the Su-35 and plenty of Russian engines. Why are the Russians suddenly willing to sell China the Su-35? (I have one Russian's comments on it and it is not pretty for China - as I had suspected.)

Easy. Have explained this before. IF china is getting Su-35, it is for taking a look at the engine. There are already published articles speculating this if you go back a few pages in this thread. Besides, China has tons of cash in dollar. Why not put some of them in good use? The alleged order is just a batch of 24 fighters. The number is too insignificant to replace any domestic fighters. China probably just wants to order a few but Russia ain't dumb either. Minimum ticket price: 24 fighters.

Beidou, plenty of ships, etc - yes, it is impressive. My point being it is a flash in the pan. It should die out.

Interesting, so after Beidou and all, China suddenly hits the brake and will sit there twiddling thumbs. Maybe you had thought that same after J-10.

[ashi]

things come to all imported engines got cut off, we still have WS-10 to use. What have you got to laugh at us?

Your posts are a laugh because your typing fingers type faster than you think. You must have learned this logic from a Pakistani. "If I lose my arms and legs I will fight with my mouth"

If you have only WS 10 left 90% of your air force will be grounded.

You are correct. Maybe not 90 but definitely many in the short run. J-10 may need do a bit of modification to fit WS-10. But if no imported engines are allowed in this world, there will be only less than a handful of airforces left flying. China is one, India is not.

[adityadange]

BTW, do you agree that a lot of the techs in China are stolen?

No. Some are from reverse engineering, which is also engineering.

reverse engineering without permission. that means stolen.

also
'lot of' - 'some of' = 'most of' -> are stolen. so you agree that most of your tech are stolen. so why dont you educate us which techs you have stolen?

[jamwal]

In the long term, it doesn't matter whether the tech in stolen from hacking attempts or reverse engineering. Only important question is , Have they improved their technological base or not ? Have they learnt something worthwhile which enables them to make more of such stuff which meets their needs ? If yes, then it is an achievement.

BTW, in Chinese context most of the technology is stolen. Reverse engineering without permission, which actually causes loss to the OEM is theft. If there was a way to implement normal laws applicable to people on nations, China would have been in prison.

[ashi]

reverse engineering without permission. that means stolen.

also
'lot of' - 'some of' = 'most of' -> are stolen. so you agree that most of your tech are stolen. so why dont you educate us which techs you have stolen?

A person is capable of stealing but not necessarily capable of reverse engineering. So are they the same? If you want to talk ethics between countries, you should really start another thread.

[adityadange]

stopping all trade to and from a country, cancelling its recognition as a nation and blocking all land, sea air routes can be said as imprisonment. wont it?

[adityadange]

A person is capable of stealing but not necessarily capable of reverse engineering. So are they the same? If you want to talk ethics between countries, you should really start another thread.

No its not the same. BUT as said earlier, 'most of' techs are stolen (which you admitted unknowingly) irrespective of being capable or not, china is a thief. Let me be more precise. China is a capable thief. happy now?

[shiv]

China is one, India is not.

Why does talking about China cause you so much anxiety that you want to change the subject to India? You don;t want anything bad to be said about China do you? Loss of face and all that eh? What will happen to India is being discussed openly in a hundred threads on this forum. We talk about China here. China is such a closed book that the Chinese may be bluffing. Credibility from Chinese sources is near zero.

Yes the PLAAF will fly but only 10% of planes will fly. And engines will need servicing every 10 hours. Come on admit it. That is why you want to change the subject to India in every post in this thread. As long as you brag about China you are happy. The minute uncomfortable truths emerge you want to change the subject to India.

You know the torn shirt open fly story. I tell you you have an open fly. You say 'So what your shirt is torn". But my torn shirt does not compensate for the shame of your open fly. Changing the subject to India does not make Chinese unreliability any better. Lets stick with China boss. What is the MTBF of your WS 10. How many PLAAF transports fly with WS 10? Hain ji? Lets hear which 10% of PLAAF will fly with WS 10?

[NRao]

So J-20/J-31 is just mirage and all photo shop?

No, neither a mirage nor a photo shop (some pictures could be, but that is a different matter - unrelated to this discussion) in that sense. But in another sense yes, they are photo shopped - they ARE copied technologies.

BUT, neither was researched, designed and built ground up. So, although each IS an achievement, neither can or will contribute to the LONG TERM health of the Chinese defense industries. They cannot.

And, I am not sure why is there so much confusion. After all China has been making BOTH aircrafts AND engines since the 50s or so. So, IF China was really that advanced one would see Chinese planes - not planes that China built that look like from Israel/US/Russia.

Just to be clear in the arena of air craft design/build a look-like necessarily means copying - since independent research would lead to designs that heavily lean of native technologies and more than anything else native requirements (you can see that in all ground up designs). The PAK-FA is equal to the F-22 (OK give and take some) but look at the design - US vs. Russian, it is rather clear. Eurofighter, Grippen .... native technologies, native requirements. ............................. Until we hit the J-20 and 31. J-10. Neither has native technologies nor are any native requirements evident (granted nothing in China is above ground).

[NRao]

Slow day.

Easy. Have explained this before. IF china is getting Su-35, it is for taking a look at the engine. There are already published articles speculating this if you go back a few pages in this thread. Besides, China has tons of cash in dollar. Why not put some of them in good use? The alleged order is just a batch of 24 fighters. The number is too insignificant to replace any domestic fighters. China probably just wants to order a few but Russia ain't dumb either. Minimum ticket price: 24 fighters.

My point is exactly the opposite.

IF Chinese planes were THAT good, why even 24? Why ANY from Russia?

"alleged", "probably", etc give it away. Being from a closed nation I really do not think you have all the answers. But even then ....................... the best guess? To try and make more copies. There was an article in the Russian mag that stated that the Russians were convinced that Chinese cannot copy for nuts which is why Russia is willing to sell the 35.

And Russians houls know by now - China has been trying to copy since the 50s.

[NRao]

A person is capable of stealing but not necessarily capable of reverse engineering. So are they the same? If you want to talk ethics between countries, you should really start another thread.

Stealing with the hope or misplaced confidence of reverse engineering.

Inability to reverse engineering has caused other issues.

[subhamoy.das]

Meanwhile http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 130926.cms

I would have imaged that India would have proposed this....

[svinayak]

Meanwhile http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 130926.cms

I would have imaged that India would have proposed this....

If you dont follow the geopolitics you would miss the information

Japan US military pact has been activated and all the Japan claims are now supported by US implicitly. This is a new thing in East Asia and PRC aggressive belligerence has brought all the nations together.
Now china is upgrading with SU-35 mainly against Japan-US military and will still fall short.

They need a quite front in the west on the Tibet border. India has to play cool

NEW DELHI: China today proposed a border defence cooperation agreement to avoid any misunderstanding or flare up along the boundary but India is not rushing into it as wants to study the proposal thoroughly.

[PratikDas]

1954 Panchsheel Treaty all over again:

• Mutual respect for each other's territorial integrity and sovereignty,
• Mutual non-aggression,
• Mutual non-interference in each other's internal affairs,
• Equality and mutual benefit, and
• Peaceful co-existence.

1962: War

1954 + Chinese lucky number 8 = 1962
2013 + Chinese lucky number 8 = 2021

[Don]

RamaY....i tthink the take over has more to do with Chinese desire to gain access to the assorted technologies involved.

I am sure tech transfer is important but not the main factor. First of all 5.6 billion barell of oil on Nexens holding is quite substantial its more than 60% of the entire proven crude oil reserve of India.

However most importantly China wants to strategically diversify its oil suppliers. Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Africa will be major suppliers but Russia, Central Asia, and Latin America, Canada will be substantial players as well. In case of a regional conflict like south asian war the oil supply will still largely continue.

Its happening...

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/rosneft-triple ... 32784.html

Rosneft to triple oil supplies to China
Reuters – 7 hours ago..
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia's top oil producer Rosneft will, over time, more than triple total volumes of oil supplies to China, making the country Russia's biggest oil consumer, Rosneft head Igor Sechin said on Friday.

Russia will increase oil supplies by 31 million tonnes a year, and will get a $2 billion 25-year loan.

"Today we signed... an agreement on principles of crude oil supplies, which foresees (a) gradual increase in ... supplies starting from 800,000 tonnes this year in addition to those contracts and obligations that we signed in 2009," Sechin told reporters.

This will bring total Rosneft supplies to China to 45-50 million tonnes a year, though the time horizon remained unclear.

Rosneft currently supplies China with 15 million tonnes of oil a year (300,000 barrels per day) via the East Siberia-Pacific Ocean pipeline. Some volumes are also shipped via Pacific port of Kozmino.

Sechin also said that Rosneft and China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) agreed to jointly develop three offshore blocks in the Barents Sea and 8 onshore deposits in East Siberia.

Earlier on Friday, Sechin said that the goal of increasing oil supplies to China to 50 million tonnes a year (1 million barrels per day) was achievable.

[Victor]

In case of a regional conflict like south asian war the oil supply will still largely continue.

Optimism is a good quality but fantasy is not. In any conflict involving India and China, China's oil supply will be choked off within 24 hours and its oil reserves attacked.

[subhamoy.das]

Meanwhile http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 130926.cms

I would have imaged that India would have proposed this....

If you dont follow the geopolitics you would miss the information

Japan US military pact has been activated and all the Japan claims are now supported by US implicitly. This is a new thing in East Asia and PRC aggressive belligerence has brought all the nations together.
Now china is upgrading with SU-35 mainly against Japan-US military and will still fall short.

They need a quite front in the west on the Tibet border. India has to play cool

My comment was more of a satire. The real might of the CHINESE forces is exposed just by US-Japan axis. What will they do if there is a Vietnam-India axis, a Russia-Taepei axis or let us say a Soko-Tibet axis. They are really surrounded by a pack of wolves and must be sweating in their pants but showing off those widgets to keep the faith with their citizen or else that will be another front opened.......They have really ruffled the feathers of a lot of power ful folks in their neighborhood and now will have to pay a price....

[Don]

In case of a regional conflict like south asian war the oil supply will still largely continue.

Optimism is a good quality but fantasy is not. In any conflict involving India and China, China's oil supply will be choked off within 24 hours and its oil reserves attacked.

Yeah talk about fantasy...

[ashi]

My comment was more of a satire. The real might of the CHINESE forces is exposed just by US-Japan axis. What will they do if there is a Vietnam-India axis, a Russia-Taepei axis or let us say a Soko-Tibet axis. They are really surrounded by a pack of wolves and must be sweating in their pants but showing off those widgets to keep the faith with their citizen or else that will be another front opened.......They have really ruffled the feathers of a lot of power ful folks in their neighborhood and now will have to pay a price....

"Russia-Taepei axis, Soko-Tibet axis, Vietnam-India axis"... Dude, get a grip of reality. Not just in this thread, in the economy threads as well.

[ashi]

In case of a regional conflict like south asian war the oil supply will still largely continue.

Optimism is a good quality but fantasy is not. In any conflict involving India and China, China's oil supply will be choked off within 24 hours and its oil reserves attacked.

Very funny...

[ashi]

Why does talking about China cause you so much anxiety that you want to change the subject to India? You don;t want anything bad to be said about China do you? Loss of face and all that eh? What will happen to India is being discussed openly in a hundred threads on this forum. We talk about China here. China is such a closed book that the Chinese may be bluffing. Credibility from Chinese sources is near zero.

We have mentioned Sweden, US, Russia, Japan in this Chinese military thread. Why mentioning India is prohibitive? Are you so insecure?

Yes the PLAAF will fly but only 10% of planes will fly. And engines will need servicing every 10 hours. Come on admit it. That is why you want to change the subject to India in every post in this thread. As long as you brag about China you are happy. The minute uncomfortable truths emerge you want to change the subject to India.

While you are riding a high horse to mock us, I would just like to occasionally remind you that you are riding a cripple donkey in fact.

Lets stick with China boss. What is the MTBF of your WS 10. How many PLAAF transports fly with WS 10? Hain ji? Lets hear which 10% of PLAAF will fly with WS 10?

Sure. Ever heard of our Y-8 with WJ-6 turboprop engines? WS 10 is not our only engine. WP-13 for J-8, WP-7 for J-7...

[ashi]

My point is exactly the opposite.

IF Chinese planes were THAT good, why even 24? Why ANY from Russia?

US has gotten her hands on a few Su-27 and Mig-29. Why? Why ANY?

[member_20292]

^^^ to all chinese posters. can you discuss and supply information about the performance of your planes. Lets start with the Su 30 MKK. what are its specs wrt the new Su 35?

[Victor]

Optimism is a good quality but fantasy is not. In any conflict involving India and China, China's oil supply will be choked off within 24 hours and its oil reserves attacked.

Very funny...

Very clumsy of me. I meant to cure your delusion.

All of China's oil sails well within range of India's missiles and jets. Not a single drop can pass through unless India allows it. Ditto for the oil reserve. Unless you and your buddies can clearly explain how this is not the case, the statement that "oil supply will continue in a regional conflict" remains a fantasy. The very first thing India will do is cut off the oil supply because it is the easiest thing to do.

[Don]

Very funny...

Very clumsy of me. I meant to cure your delusion.

All of China's oil sails well within range of India's missiles and jets. Not a single drop can pass through unless India allows it. Ditto for the oil reserve. Unless you and your buddies can clearly explain how this is not the case, the statement that "oil supply will continue in a regional conflict" remains a fantasy. The very first thing India will do is cut off the oil supply because it is the easiest thing to do.

Dude do you even know your map ? CHeck where Siberia is located..lol

[shiv]

Why does talking about China cause you so much anxiety that you want to change the subject to India? You don;t want anything bad to be said about China do you? Loss of face and all that eh? What will happen to India is being discussed openly in a hundred threads on this forum. We talk about China here. China is such a closed book that the Chinese may be bluffing. Credibility from Chinese sources is near zero.

We have mentioned Sweden, US, Russia, Japan in this Chinese military thread. Why mentioning India is prohibitive? Are you so insecure?


Sure. Ever heard of our Y-8 with WJ-6 turboprop engines? WS 10 is not our only engine. WP-13 for J-8, WP-7 for J-7...

Only the Chinese are coming on here to talk about India Not the Swedes, Japanese Russians or Americans. Loss of face. Insecurity -and the anger of congniitve dissonance. Also maybe the anger of one spoilt child from Chna's one child policy - a child who is not used to being denied what he wants.

Have I hard of those engines? You must be joking. Or bluffing. Lets see one photograph of one of those engines. Not from the outside. The actual engine. Last "Chinese engine" linked on this thread was a fake Chinese labelled picture of a CFM 56.

I bet you won't produce one because it will be a cheap copy of a Russian original. which will become evident the microsecond you expose it to public scrutiny

[Victor]

Dude do you even know your map ? CHeck where Siberia is located..lol

See, this is what I mean by "fantasy", tinged in this case by ignorance. So what about Siberia?

This is a map of Russia's major oil basins:

.
The Siberian prospective basins (the "optimism" part) may come into production in the decades ahead and then Russia could supply upto 20% of China's future needs. The world will be a different place then and India won't be standing still in the meantime.

This is the source of China's oil for the near to mid term at least. :



And here is the route for at least 75% of China's oil for the foreseeable future:



The red dots show some of the many possible shore-based points that are within easy reach of this oil route. This is not even considering Indian ships, subs and jets.

[wong]

Only the Chinese are coming on here to talk about India Not the Swedes, Japanese Russians or Americans. Loss of face. Insecurity -and the anger of congniitve dissonance. Also maybe the anger of one spoilt child from Chna's one child policy - a child who is not used to being denied what he wants.

I don't know man, have you checked the only India news in America, Britain and Switzerland lately?? You want loss of face, that's it. Of course not a word of it on the Indian Tourism thread. Keep sticking your head in the sand for 'Incredible India' shiv.