Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

[Sanku]

After all these discussions is India going to dump the 300 tin cans and buy the Arjuns, which she should?

So sorry, but no Indian army will not be forced to chose between T 90 and Arjun to please vested interests. India can order both Arjun's and T 90s and still have need for more.

But you are getting ahead of yourself, there is no sign of a new 300 T 90 order yet.

[koti]

T-72M in Syria. Thought relevant.

[ramana]

Last trip talked to someone in IN. Asked about the preference for Russian stuff.

He said the perception over there is now that India is up and running they should support them now and is the prevailing sentiment. So asked in that case make sure you get the best.
And due to limited pockets there are choices to be made.

[member_22539]

^^All that the above states is that the Russians got additional orders for more Invar kits,

No it does not state that at all.

My bad, I said additional when it was just pending orders. But, I am still waiting for your source stating that BDL was responsible for the defective missiles with their faulty assembly and Russia was not at fault for supplying defective missile kits. Again, this was just a panic buy (well the excuse at least) after the CAG report stating desperately low stocks of ammunition. You still have not provided any sources for your assertion that everything is fixed with the Invar and the Invars built by BDL. And don't bother pointing out that it must be fixed since the pending orders were cleared, these are the same people who ordered 1000s of tincans which did not work in the heat of the Thar desert.

[Karan M]

Arun Menon, you are talking to somebody with no interest in the truth, but merely interested in repeating dubious claims to win arguments on the net. Dont waste your time.
Its not INVAR alone but also the dubious behaviour regarding giving even the codes for the ballistic computer to load indian made/third party ammo into the T-90. Ultimately Tata had to be roped in.
Many other such incidents besides.

[Misraji]

Last trip talked to someone in IN. Asked about the preference for Russian stuff.

He said the perception over there is now that India is up and running they should support them now and is the prevailing sentiment. So asked in that case make sure you get the best.
And due to limited pockets there are choices to be made.

Sirjee, could you please repeat that?
Could really not understand which parties (IN, India, Russia) the words "there", "they", "them", "you" referred to.

--Ashish

[ramana]

Last trip talked to someone in IN. Asked about the preference for Russian stuff.

He said the perception over there (Russia) is now that India is up and running they(India) should support them (Russians) now and is the prevailing sentiment. So asked in that case make sure you (India) get the best.
And due to limited pockets (India) there are choices to be made.

Sirjee, could you please repeat that?
Could really not understand which parties (IN, India, Russia) the words "there", "they", "them", "you" referred to.

--Ashish

[Misraji]

Last trip talked to someone in IN. Asked about the preference for Russian stuff.

He said the perception over there (Russia) is now that India is up and running they(India) should support them (Russians) now and is the prevailing sentiment. So asked in that case make sure you (India) get the best.
And due to limited pockets (India) there are choices to be made.

Awesome. Thank you.

Interesting perception. We should support them.
Nobody denies that the two countries have had a history.
But I would almost say this "expectation" thing is pushing it.

--Ashish

[arnab]

Being a grizzled veteran and all that, let me summarize this dhaaga from 2005 or so when people like jcage was around (where is he these days?)

Arjun is a totally useless design phase: this was when people pointed out that it was heavy had a drum in the back and was a totally useless design and concept. 3 years of arguing later, people understood what a GSQR was and are now beginning to understand army asked for a design like this inspired by western tank philosophy and experience with vijayanta.

Arjun is a okay design but the products are awful phase: this was when "torsion bar broke" Arjun couldn't fire straight and we can't cross the border with it was peddled. Was finally laid to rest when people after people vouched for it and comparative trials with tin can were canceled with the words "maruti vs BMW"

Arjun is not 400% pindigenous phase. Didn't last long, was pointed out we are gradually making subsystems or replacements ourselves. Was comparable to LCA/LCH and tin cans were 800% foreign anyway. Also russies squeezing our testimonials about main gun, armor and rounds proved to be too embarrassing to continue this.

Arjun does not have everything tin can has phase: was quickly killed with MK2 putting out rumors about missile firing ability. Also ordering thermal imagers for tin can was proving to be too embarrassing to continue this.

Well Arjun is okay design, okay prototype, indigenous content is okay but our manufacturing sucks phase. The current phase. This too shall pass.

My prediction: next phase would be "now that we have so many tin cans, why throw them away? We can build schools from the money we would waste on Arjun." This will last for 5 years. And after that we will have "After all pakis aren't so bad, we can be friends with them why do we need a tank? "

Did you forget the other classic? - "IA merely recommended acquisition of the T-90, it did not recommend inducting them" So we are flip flopping between T-90 is a 'good' tank, and if it is a 'bad' tank then IA did not recommend it.

Sigh... so much useful bandwidth wasted on the battle of Eastings. As if Tank wars should be jousting matches like medieval knights, only then one would know if the M1s are better than the Tincans. Oh wait! wasn't that the purpose of the competition between the Arjun Mk1 and the T-90? Which the army claimed was unfair because it was comparing a 'Mercedes with a Maruti' (albeit the latter commanding the price of a Mercedes and the irony of comparing our current Main Battle Tank to a Maruti).

So I wonder what the defenders of the Tincans are trying to prove with their verbiage.

Incidentally is there any source stating that the IA wants 1500 Arjuns and 1500 T90 (given the current ratios are 248 to 1650)? All we got for that query was some pompous name dropping about apparently Shri Palliappan Raju making a statement to that effect in parliament

[NRao]

Nobody denies that the two countries have had a history.

I am not too sure about that. Political climate and the fact that it was the USSR and not Russia.

Besides the Russians are a lot more capitalistic and tend to behave like one too when it comes to reaping financial benefits but do not provide the best in return - even with the FGFA.

If they are serious I would fully expect them to assist in developing the military industry in India. One way is to either provide great tech and support or decline providing competing products for products in the budding stage. Either way if they are serious they need to stop viewing India as a banker.

[Viv S]

del

[Viv S]

The Arjun has been cleared for service and in production. I want to know how a supposed patriot justifies continuing T-90 production given that fact. Sincerely, no snideness intended.

Sigh, okay once more --

India needs a fleet of at least 3000 MBTs.

T 90s will make up for 1500

Arjun will make up for 1500

If they can be made.

Why the equal-equal? Why not 2400 Arjuns + 600 T-90 (or as many are already in service)?

[alexis]

Last trip talked to someone in IN. Asked about the preference for Russian stuff.

He said the perception over there (Russia) is now that India is up and running they(India) should support them (Russians) now and is the prevailing sentiment. So asked in that case make sure you (India) get the best.
And due to limited pockets (India) there are choices to be made.

[/quote]



Russia wants to be supported! Isnt the support of X Bn USD from IN for the rust bucket not enough? And Y Mn USD revenue from selling RD93 tom Pakis not enough?

[Sanku]

Arun Menon, you are talking to somebody with no interest in the truth, but merely interested in repeating dubious claims to win arguments on the net. Dont waste your time.
Its not INVAR alone but also the dubious behaviour regarding giving even the codes for the ballistic computer to load indian made/third party ammo into the T-90. Ultimately Tata had to be roped in.
Many other such incidents besides.

Karan M, you should not let emotions cloud your views on truth, and you are not a 50 cent poster, if you say that I am wrong, PROVE it with a open data point.

Otherwise all these personal attack based on opinions is getting tiring.

And no, sorry chai walla infor does not count.

[Sanku]

My bad, I said additional when it was just pending orders. But, I am still waiting for your source stating that BDL was responsible for the defective missiles with their faulty assembly and Russia was not at fault for supplying defective missile kits.

Again, this was just a panic buy (well the excuse at least) after the CAG report stating desperately low stocks of ammunition. .

INVARs are getting assembled at BDL regularly since 2006.

R... E.... G..... U.... L..... A..... R.... L.... Y.....

One batch had problem (probably the first) in 2006. It is speculated that the problem was at BDLs assembly since there were no problems with direct INVAR imports and later assemblies either.

More INVARs are being purchased because they are very capable weapon and yes, because the tank ammo stock is low -- this is less based on CAG report and more on Gen VK Singh's letter which was leaked.

So no I can not provide proofs for your random statements that you make and ascribe to others. Proofs can only be provided for what I have said and what has really happened.

Kindly stop making untrue statements now.

[Sanku]

Why the equal-equal? Why not 2400 Arjuns + 600 T-90 (or as many are already in service)?

This primarily come from the fact that T 90s induction lead Arjun in time. The contract for 1600+ T 90s was already a done deal by 2004-6. Arjun's production status is unclear. Arjun Mk II status is unclear. Therefore rather than have 30 year old tanks, it is important that a modern mainstay fleet be created while Arjun gets ready in sufficient numbers.

[amit]

... and you are not a 50 cent poster, if you say that I am wrong, PROVE it with a open data point.

I'm sure Karan will respond to this post of yours.

I find it interesting that you ask for PROOF with a "data point", yet you feel insulted that others don't take your word as gospel truth. Why don't you "PROVE .. with a open data point" all the gyaan you are dispensing liberally.

There's still the matter of the Invar produced by BDL being defective and that all T90s in India are using the missile.

But choro, your latest gyaan is interesting:

India needs a fleet of at least 3000 MBTs.

T 90s will make up for 1500

Arjun will make up for 1500

"Why don't you PROVE it with an open data point" your assertion?

As far as I can see Defense Industry Daily has this to say in January of this year:

The Army’s plan still calls for 1,657 T-90S “Bhishma” tanks at about 12 crore (INR 120 million, about $2.78 million) each if prices remain stable. About 1,000 of those are slated to be built in India by Avadi Heavy Industries, the same firm that builds the Arjuns. They will be joined by just 248 Arjuns at about 16.8 crore (INR 168 million, about $3.92 million) each, as well as 692 older T-72 tanks upgraded to the T-72M1 “Ajeya” standard . This overall plan changes the force structure proposed in 2006, from 3,780 tanks (1,302 T-90s and 2,480 T-72s) to 2,597 higher-end tanks.

If you can't prove your assertion do we take it that you are a 50 paise poster?

[amit]

This primarily come from the fact that T 90s induction lead Arjun in time. The contract for 1600+ T 90s was already a done deal by 2004-6. Arjun's production status is unclear. Arjun Mk II status is unclear. Therefore rather than have 30 year old tanks, it is important that a modern mainstay fleet be created while Arjun gets ready in sufficient numbers.

Well, well, that 1,500 T90s now increase to 1,600 (which is nearer the correct figure)? And why is the Arjun MK II status unclear? The Army wanted a number of improvements and they've been implemented. Don't tell me you think that production issues cannot be solved if the Army stops treating the Arjun like an embarrassing child who refuses to go away?

[Sanku]

... and you are not a 50 cent poster, if you say that I am wrong, PROVE it with a open data point.

I'm sure Karan will respond to this post of yours.
?

Then why dont you stay out? I am tired of your asking the exact same question after three pages.

You should spend your time on the fora of nation you love so much for running a successful tank programs than bothering with me no.

[Sanku]

This primarily come from the fact that T 90s induction lead Arjun in time. The contract for 1600+ T 90s was already a done deal by 2004-6. Arjun's production status is unclear. Arjun Mk II status is unclear. Therefore rather than have 30 year old tanks, it is important that a modern mainstay fleet be created while Arjun gets ready in sufficient numbers.

Well, well, that 1,500 T90s now increase to 1,600 (which is nearer the correct figure)? And why is the Arjun MK II status unclear? The Army wanted a number of improvements and they've been implemented. Don't tell me you think that production issues cannot be solved if the Army stops treating the Arjun like an embarrassing child who refuses to go away?

Arjun Mk II status is unclear because there is no news from the tests this year in public domain yet.

Unfortunately some people need real data to find clarity, others have a clear mind irrespective of data all the time. And flog the same untruth over and over, repeatedly, without any care or concern about what is actually happening.

And yeah 1500 vs 1600, your attempts to troll are really going down by the day.

[amit]

Nope I bow down to the troll master. In your 50 paise post, you said 1,500 T90s and 1500 Arjuns. What about the 690 odd upgraded T-72? Where do they figure in your calculations


And yes the Invar question.

I was just looking at the exchange again and find it immensely amusing.

Ajai Sukla's report says this:

A simultaneous crisis developed around the T-90S’s Invar missile, earlier cited as a clinching reason for buying the tank. But the Invar missiles that came were unusable and they were quietly returned to Russia. On March 2, 2006, Antony told Parliament, “The Invar missile on T-90 tank is not a failure. However, the completely knocked down kits received for assembly have been found to be defective.”

The operating part of that para was that the defective missiles were quietly returned to Russia. If they had been assembled in India why were they returned?

Yet this was your response in that post:

The Invar missile assembled in BDL were defective and replaced by direct russian imports, the issue was found to be at BDL later.

I would advise you to read before you post.

I don't know where you got the BDL conclusion from that report. Perhaps you should read before you post?

And as to Invars being assembled at BDL, you yourself quoted an India Today article to which states 10,000 Invar missiels would be procured from Russia. Don't you understand what that means? More $$$$ to bankroll the Russian MIC. And how many tens of thousands of missiles does the Indian Army need if they have to procure them from BDL after importing 10,000?

PS: I remember sometime ago you made a promise never to quote Ajai Shukla as a source. I wonder what happened this time?

[amit]

Then why dont you stay out? I am tired of your asking the exact same question after three pages.

You should spend your time on the fora of nation you love so much for running a successful tank programs than bothering with me no.

Oh Sanku, you really, really want me to stay out? Why didn't you say so before?

[Viv S]

This primarily come from the fact that T 90s induction lead Arjun in time. The contract for 1600+ T 90s was already a done deal by 2004-6. Arjun's production status is unclear. Arjun Mk II status is unclear.

The MkII variant is irrelevant. If and when its cleared for induction we can discuss it. Why should the Mk I production be stopped while the T-90 production carries on? The Mk1 entered reached full rate of production of 50 tanks/year about two years back and could logically have been scaled up to 100 tanks/year (substituting the T-90 line tank-for-tank) in the space of a few years (all that was required was for the IA to take plunge).

Or is your case that the 1600 tanks have already been paid for rendering any degree of cancellation/downsizing impossible?

Therefore rather than have 30 year old tanks, it is important that a modern mainstay fleet be created while Arjun gets ready in sufficient numbers.

What do you mean by '30 year old tank'? Do you think the MBT Arjun is obsolete/obsolescent? If not, what was the point of that statement, because it sounded like a slur against a tank you claim to support? If yes, please come out and say it outright; the Arjun Mk1 is not good enough to serve as the 'modern mainstay' of the IA's mechanized forces.

[Philip]

Look,from all official sources,Avadi production is behind schedule.It has enormous tasks as we have only one tank production facility,a great strategic handicap too,manufacturing Arjun MK-1s,assembling and producing with local components T-90s,upgrading over 1000+ T-72s and also making specialised armoured vehicles.A few years ago the enormity of the task was the subject of a review of our armoured forces in an IDR article.We now have an Arjun MK-2 with 90+ improvements doing its trials and a new TI device being retrofitted to the T-series of tanks.The MOD/GOI should've forseen this logjam and set up another dedicated facility for Arjun and specialised vehicles,leaving Avadi for the T-upgrades and T-90s.Only after A-2 has been certified as a success will any production be taken up.We can only hope that it will happen in 2013.

[Pratyush]

^^^

So instead of fixing problems with the supply chain and the assembly line. Lets import the T 90.

[amit]

^^^

So instead of fixing problems with the supply chain and the assembly line. Lets import the T 90.

This is the crux of the issue. Supply chain constraints are a relatively minor irritant when compared to the complexity of designing a product as complex as Arjun from ground up. And DRDO has indicated many times that all supply chain constraints and progressively more local sourcing of sub components can happen only when there is a sufficiently high number of orders.

I think all this Avadi can't do this or that is the latest excuse to try and kill the Arjun, now that calling it a "dabba" no longer works, because in that case the T90 is Coke can. Heck even calling it a Mercedes didn't even work!

Added later: And all this talk about bridges not fit to take the Arjun is utter bulls*it. Just how many bridges would a tank regiment have to cross if, say they needed to make dash for the border from an holding station in Punjab? Two, four, six? How much effort does it take to strengthen them or build new ones?

And if there is a thrust into Pakistan does anybody serious think that retreating Pakistani forces are going keep all the bridges on their side entact so that the T90s can stroll across? Nope they're going to destroy every single bridge and we'd have to take bridging laying equipment along with us.

I'm sorry but the excuses for not buying the Arjun is getting sillier by the day.

[Viv S]

The MOD/GOI should've forseen this logjam and set up another dedicated facility for Arjun and specialised vehicles,leaving Avadi for the T-upgrades and T-90s.

Why T-90s at Avadi at all? If the entire capacity of the public + private sector is X tanks/year, regardless of whether X is a good number or bad number, question is why shouldn't X comprise entirely of Arjun tanks?

[Sanku]

This primarily come from the fact that T 90s induction lead Arjun in time. The contract for 1600+ T 90s was already a done deal by 2004-6. Arjun's production status is unclear. Arjun Mk II status is unclear.

The MkII variant is irrelevant. If and when its cleared for induction we can discuss it. Why should the Mk I production be stopped while the T-90 production carries on?

Who says its stopped? Official sources please. No track II Shukla here.

This has been discussed before, there is no open source data which says what is the rate of production of Mk I, what is the down time between Mk I and II, and what is time needed for retooling.

I am hardly going to assume that full rate of production is achieved at Avadi till I see any numbers. Heck even T 90 rate of production is not achieved.

Therefore rather than have 30 year old tanks, it is important that a modern mainstay fleet be created while Arjun gets ready in sufficient numbers.

What do you mean by '30 year old tank'? Do you think the MBT Arjun is obsolete/obsolescent?

When the decision to buy 310 T 90s was taken in 2000 -- T 72s were 25 year old.

When the decision to buy 1200+ T 90s was taken in 2004-6, T 72s were 30 year old.

There was no usable product in Arjun at those points of time. Arjun Mk I has matured as a usable product only in 2008.

[NRao]

The MkII variant is irrelevant. If and when its cleared for induction we can discuss it. Why should the Mk I production be stopped while the T-90 production carries on? The Mk1 entered reached full rate of production of 50 tanks/year about two years back and could logically have been scaled up to 100 tanks/year (substituting the T-90 line tank-for-tank) in the space of a few years (all that was required was for the IA to take plunge).

The production of the MK I is stopped because the Army has said it will not induct any more of them. There are ample data points to support that.

And the reason for not inducting more of Arjuns is the T-90 series worthless tank, which the Russians cram down the throat - see Ramana's post.

Not to mention of the 300 that the Russians are stating that India wants to buy.

IF Avadi is an issue, then stop making more T-90s. A rather simple solution. Ask the Russians to return what may have been paid for their production so far (or better still let them keep the monies).

Also recall India went looking for a "light" tank - for the NE - in a non-Russian country. Subsequently they qualified the T-(0 for the NE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What happened? You do not go looking around when you already have one in hand and then claim the one in hand is equally good. Russia pushed the buttons to make it happen. Of course one is not going to find data points if one even looks for them all over the world. And, it is not difficult to conclude that either.

[Singha]

is the 52-t T90 now going to fill the role of 300 light tanks IA was looking for? I thought polish anders tank was in running for that?

[NRao]

google: "T-90 tanks for china border".

Seems like a done deal the last time I read an article. T-90MSs (whatever these tin cans are).

There are plenty of dependable data points, but here is one from 2012:

According to MoD sources, the army has demanded the purchase of additional T-90 tanks for these six armoured regiments. India has already bought 657 T-90S tanks from Russia and obtained a licence to build another 1,000. Now, in addition to these purchases, the army wants the latest version of this tank, called the T-90MS.

[amit]

google: "T-90 tanks for china border".

Seems like a done deal the last time I read an article. T-90SMs (whatever these tin cans are).

This is a Chinese site. However, it has something very interesting:

Being a new and upgraded version of the T-90S that India bought in 2001, the T-90MS is widely regarded as well suited for the extreme cold in the northern regions of India.
The Arjun, in contrast, is designed to withstand the heat of the Indian plains, where the T-90S has repeatedly malfunctioned in high temperatures.
According to a senior general who is still in service, the Indian army is “justified in deploying the T-90MS in the border region between China and India” and “it’s better to replace the old T-90S with Arjun in some high temperature areas“.

So the lemon T90S which gets our Russia lovers drooling can't withstand the "heat of the Indian plains" (we have multiple sources that confirm this). And it can't withstand the cold of the NE?

Imagine a Russian tank can't stand cold!!

I suspect this is just a new excuse being peddled to buy more tanks from Russia as it has now becomes tricky to order T90s since it would raise questions about Arjun.

Ajay Shukla says as much in his article.

Added later: Incidentally the Sina news is sourced from the original Business Standard article.

[amit]

is the 52-t T90 now going to fill the role of 300 light tanks IA was looking for? I thought polish anders tank was in running for that?

Singha,

Do you realise that if a 52 ton tank is a "light tank" then Arjun is just the right weight for being the mainstay MBT. All this talk about Arjun being "over-weight" becomes meaningless bulls*it!

[nelson]

If we use metric system as we use in India T-90 would weigh 47.5 tonnes.

If we use short tons (1 short ton = 2000 pounds = 907.2 kG) then T-90 weighs 52.4 short tons. Fellow posters may please use units consistently, when comparing parameters.

[NRao]

True, one must use comparable metrics.

However, Arjun is better facing Pakistan and a real light tank is better facing China.

Russian tanks have really no place. Neither is there a philosophy to support it.

And this requires no track thinking.

[nelson]

That is what you and majority of posters think and profess. It seems, IA doesn't think so. Even DRDO chief Dr Saraswat has recently accepted in public regarding unsuitability of Arjun for plains in Punjab and J&K. People have completely and conveniently ignored such reports which were linked here by few posters!

[NRao]

He said the problem of bridges IN Punjab are real. NOT "plains".

[NRao]

Sorry, he said canal bridges (NOT any other bridge) were an issue.

“During the trials it was found that canal bridges in Punjab were incapable of carrying its weight,” he said.

Data point.

[nelson]

Ok, canal bridges in the plains of Punjab and J&K and North Rajasthan. He attributes the reason for not deploying it in certain areas. Point i am raising here is that..

1. weight of MBT is a criteria.
2. report was ignored in toto.

it would be interesting to discuss how Arjun would overcome this if it were to be inducted for operations in these areas. Thank you.

[NRao]

I am sorry, I was not aware that there are canals in J&K. Or plains for that matter. Need to catch up.

Thx.