Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 04:03

Anujan wrote:
Drishyaman wrote: I have seen people using this 'torsion bar' trick in this thread earlier also to catch a person not having much knowledge on Arjun
THANK YOU!! For agreeing with me. I posted an article that clearly stated that Arjun has torsion bar problems. The posters here posted unverified articles that Arjun does not have a torsion bar. So obviously one or the other is true. Thinking about it, it doesnt matter what is true to prove the final point.

What people here dont realize is that it is not a question of which tank is better, but which tank is available in numbers and can be serviced in numbers.

(A) If Arjun does in fact have torsion bar problems, why wasnt it fixed? Was it a DRDO issue with poor design or was it an Avadi issue of poor quality control?

(B) If Arjun does not have a torsion bar to begin with, why not? If Avadi cannot even produce enough torsion bars for tanks, how do they expect to produce enough arjuns in quantity to fight a war? DRDO might have good designs to begin with, but Avadi does not have the production capacity what use is it? Then Arjun is just a paper tank.

It is the duty of every taxpayer to question why the production capacity of something trivial like torsion bars have not been ramped up.

We should next discuss how Arjun 120mm gun is not good enough, and how one all knowing, poster here knows the Indian Army will replace the 120mm gun on the Arjun with the Russian 125mm gun.

Then also how the Army will order 1500 Arjuns - but wait it has to first replace T-55s (never mind these lighter tanks can be deployed in areas where even the T-72s dont go).

The Arjun was in anyways not ready when the T-90 was ready. Readiness for T-90 is:

1. Thermal sight doesnt work for decade after induction, so no prolonged use
2. Ballistic computer does not recognize non Russian ammo, so India has to run after Russia which plays hard. India finally asks TATA/DRDO to make a new BC for the T-90
3. TOT is delayed as Russians refuse to provide armor plate and gun barrels citing confidentiality (something which never came up when gobbling the deal money, hyuck, hyuck, hyuck). Now Midhani/DMRL give the plates and India sent umpteen delegations for the barrel, which worked after OFB showed off a replacement barrel for the 125mm gun. Suddenly oh boy, barrel tech is no longer critical.
4. Basic T-90s design is rubbish, with ammunition all around the crew compartment. But hey that's ok. Arjun MK1-MK2 on the other need to have crew protection etc. Which they demoed.
5. Much talk of T-90 having soooper missile firing capability. Only problem sooper missiles didnt work. Back to Russia to solve problems and order 25K more. Apparently because regular Russian rounds with T-90 cannot penetrate Pakistani T80s at combat ranges, so instead lets buy overpriced Russian silver bullet missiles in the hope at least they do.
6. Much talk of super duper fireing capability of T-90. Shown to be inferior to Arjun MK1. Army response, lets have MK2 with even more super duper features (err for another set of trials for Arjun to win and T-90 to get ordered?)
7. AUCRT trials oh oh my....issues pointed with T-90? Imagers missing (still dont work), engines have issues (who knows whether these were fixed or not)?

Whichever bunch of jokers came up with the T-90 deal, need to be investigated. This sort of stuff makes the Westland game look peanuts.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 04:14

amit wrote:
Sanku wrote:... and you are not a 50 cent poster, if you say that I am wrong, PROVE it with a open data point.
I'm sure Karan will respond to this post of yours.

Dum dee dum dee dum, in "Sanku land":

Set i=0
1. Datapoints that dont match his claims, counter his theories = no datapoints
2. Datapoints taken out of contex, liberally misapplied = datapoints

Repeat i

till "internet opponent is a quivering mass of "wtf"

Then repeat i again and go off to find some other topic in mil forum to do jee-hard on.

Current topics of Sanku jee-hard on mil forums:

C-17 purchase (bad, bad; Sanku NO defend C17, Sanku attack C-17)
Gorshkov delay (Russia, so Sanku defend)
Arjun versus T-90 (Sanku defend T-90 coz Sanku defend ARMY and also Russia; two defence in one!!)
Tejas (Sanku currently attack HAL since SANKU see he can link HAL to OFB to production rates to one and only primary objective - SANKU IS RIGHT)

I suggest Sanku Maharaj make a pilgrimage to hot air forum and spend some time in that ashram. Since we here have already been overblessed with his abundant droppings of wisdom and our puny brains may explode.

How alone can we hog such brilliance!!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Apr 2013 06:00

What people here dont realize is that it is not a question of which tank is better, but which tank is available in numbers and can be serviced in numbers

Good idea.

Arjun will win on both accounts. The prior is a done deal, the latter if and when the IA is ready to talk about the obvious. Today there is really no technical need for a T series.

Karan,

There is an ignore mechanism. Not worth reading that kind of crap.

KrishnaK,

Ah.

I such an intense discussion it is difficult to id such thoughts. Sorry, but you do have a point. In fact the more I think this bridge argument is a very silly argument. They can pay billions for a plane and not get what they wanted in return (talking of the FGFA), but cannot pay a decent sum to upgrade the infrastructure along the border? Childish.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 07 Apr 2013 06:06

Arjun has a very long name and is very visible. T90 on the other hand is only three characters long and is short.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 07 Apr 2013 06:48

^^^

Based on the tone of your posts it is difficult to say, if you are being sarcastic or not.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Apr 2013 07:10

For the MK II:

Elbit Systems Electro-optics Elop Ltd (ELOP) on March 20 (2013) was awarded an approximately US$80 million contract for supplying major elements of the vectronics suite for the 118 Arjun Mk1A main battle tanks (MBT) that were ordered for the Indian Army last January. ELOP will complete all deliveries by 2015. Each vectronics suite will include ELOP-supplied Advanced laser warning & countermeasures system (ALWACS) and the commander’s open-architecture panoramic sight (COAPS). The ALWACS will include four E-LWS sensors that can detect, categorise and pinpoint laser sources, including rangefinders, designators, beam-riders, and infra-red illuminators. E-LWS also enables direction indication for all threats, as well as audio and visual warnings. It is immune to reflection, gunfire, lightning, fire and self-electro-optical operations. The other two components of ALWACS are an IR jammer, and two 8-launcher aerosol smoke screening systems. The COAPS is a dual axis stabilised line-of-sight, remote-operated, periscopic system for independent target acquisition, battlefield surveillance and main gun firing in a ‘hunter-killer’ auto-track mode. The COAPS will use a SAGEM-built Matis-STD thermal imager (to be supplied to ELOP as customer-furnished equipment) that operates in the 3-5 micron bandwidth, while the gunner’s sight will employ a THALES-built Catherine-FC thermal imager (to be supplied to ELOP as customer-furnished equipment), operating in the 8-12 micron bandwidth. The COAPS will also house an integrated Laser Target Tracker (LTT) for providing fire-control solutions for the CLGM laser-guided anti-helicopter missile.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 07 Apr 2013 07:14

Anujan wrote:Arjun has a very long name and is very visible. T90 on the other hand is only three characters long and is short.

Arjun is still having problems with its IRST.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Apr 2013 07:22

Yogi_G wrote:
Anujan wrote:Arjun has a very long name and is very visible. T90 on the other hand is only three characters long and is short.
Arjun is still having problems with its IRST.

Could not find any ref. Do you have a URL for it by any chance? TIA.

And, even with that defect it beat the T-90?

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 07 Apr 2013 08:49

First of all Sanku ji, you are an institution as far as Knowledge on Tanks is concerned. But, some people do not agree with your views on strengths of Russkie Tanks vis-a- vis Arjun and that includes me but I would love to avoid a flame war on this topic here, you could say because of my limited knowledge on the subject.

Sanku wrote: Drishyaman ji -- the issue dates back to about 10 years or so, when Arjun was being panned by some on BRF (and on DDM) that its torsion bars broke. Now since Arjun's suspension is hydo-pneumatic, it certainly could not be the case or could it?
Yes and no. What some comedians dont get, is that at one point of time Arjun ACTUALLY DID have torsion bars as a alternative

Regarding Arjun test mules having Torsion Bars earlier, this could be true or false, am not challenging that. As, I am very well aware in automobile industries, test mules do use technologies from older generations and those technologies are progressively replaced with time.

Sanku wrote: http://www.defencejournal.com/2001/september/tank.htm

The Arjun tank uses a hydro-pneumatic suspension system, which has been giving problems. This system required recharging every 300 km in desert and semi-desert conditions. On soft ground it required recharging every 250 km. In the desert heat and dust sealing of fluids and gas malfunctioned causing leakage and requiring more frequent maintenance. Inherent design flaws in the hydro-pneumatic suspension were aggravated by the increase in the tank’s weight, which was above the maximum specified by the Army. Owing to these problems two prototype tanks were equipped with torsion bars as an alternative.
So yes, some Arjun tanks were indeed made with torsion bars in 1994-97 time frame. Guess what ? This information is ALSO present on BRF

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... harma.html

Now while I can not prove it with a link. The torsion bars prototypes were not pushed for, since they did not work either. The torsion bars did not take the weight of Arjun. So there was no alternative but to fix the hydro-pnumatic suspension. Which seems to have been finally fixed only by 2008. (Since 2006 AUCRT did show issues with suspension)

When integration testing is done, there could be teething problem with one or more of the components. So, again not challenging your above statement, as there could have been problem with hydro-pneumatic suspension system and that is why they had been testing it i.e. to find out if the integrated system had any Issues with any of the components. And, if yes they would try to fix it.
But, bottom line is does Arjun currently have any problem with its suspension ?

Sanku wrote: Anujan ji, the new posters on this thread dont know what you are doing by the "torsion bar type of strange comment" -- but the oldies are old enough to not to fall for the "supposed sarcasm" either.
Deal with facts as they exist sir-ji. There is already Shukla for the comic fiction.

I just tried to clarify the muddy water as I found Anujan ji seriously concerned with Arjun’s Torsion Bar Issues. And I honestly, tried to pull him out of the comedy (according to Sanku ji) that people were having here.

Yogi_G wrote: Arjun is still having problems with its IRST.

Now take the above statement, Another comedy one Sanku ji ?

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 07 Apr 2013 09:02

Yogi_G wrote:
Anujan wrote:Arjun has a very long name and is very visible. T90 on the other hand is only three characters long and is short.
Arjun is still having problems with its IRST.

It was actually the IRST's torsion bar that broke.

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 07 Apr 2013 09:14

KrishnaK wrote: What about the bridges on the other side ?

Now, this looks like a very serious problem with Arjun MBT and solution to that would be, that we build bridges (of course with tax payer’s money)on the other side of the border to solve this Issue.

But, must agree, what a meticulous planning by Porkis, as they designed each and every bridge on Porkiland, which would be able to handle Tincan’s weight. But, didn’t the porkis keep any ‘ Factor of Safety’ for the bridges ? If yes, even if it is as less as 1.4 or 1.5, Arjun will be able to make use of that FOS…

manum · Post by **manum** » 07 Apr 2013 10:30

In India, highway bridges are designed in accordance with IRC bridge code. IRC: 6 - 1966 – Section II gives the specifications for the various loads and stresses to be considered in bridge design. There are three types of standard loadings for which the bridges are designed namely, IRC class AA loading, IRC class A loading and IRC class B loading.

IRC class AA loading consists of either a tracked vehicle of 70 tonnes or a wheeled vehicle of 40 tonnes with dimensions The units in the figure are mm for length and tonnes for load. Normally, bridges on national highways and state highways are designed for these loadings.

Given in structure, with new limit state method, we take min. 1.5 times of load bearing capacity of the bridges.

nobody can take guarantee for porkistan....secondly I think for porkistan bridges whatever they are build for we'll have to take into account our towed bridges...

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/21948400/8 ... 6-1966.pdf

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 14:31

NRao, one cant be logged in all the time - the ignore function works only then.
A bunch of verbose "experts" are basically ruining the forum for the rest of us.

Anujan, Mihir,

Was the torsion bar which connected the IRST 120mm rifled? Is that why it broke? Unlike the smoothbore 125mm torsion bar.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 14:34

NRao wrote:Could not find any ref. Do you have a URL for it by any chance? TIA.

And, even with that defect it beat the T-90?

Arjun has a FLIR, not an IRST. And it works well....don't get taken in by the fun we are having, at the expense of the trolls who in turn, have had way too much fun at the expense of the forum.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 14:36

Dhrishyaman, people are responding to Sanku maharaj at the same level of technology understanding he regales all of us with. Please to excuse.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 14:39

Anujan wrote:Arjun has a very long name and is very visible. T90 on the other hand is only three characters long and is short.

There are no numbers in Arjuns name. That makes it less successful. All successful tanks have numbers. M1A1, Challenger 2, Leopard 2A4/5/6 etc. LeClerc does not count as it does not support the above argument so they don't count. As simple as that.

This is because production rates at OFB are so bad they could not allocate numbers to Arjun. Unlike readily assembled lines with numbers that came with T90 from Russia. So Army asked for numbers in MK2 so only one number 2 was fitted and we cannot say when it will be available so OFB line was shut down. Because 90>2.

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 07 Apr 2013 15:28

Karan M wrote:Was the torsion bar which connected the IRST 120mm rifled? Is that why it broke? Unlike the smoothbore 125mm torsion bar.

Karan M wrote:Arjun has a FLIR, not an IRST. And it works well....don't get taken in by the fun we are having, at the expense of the trolls who in turn, have had way too much fun at the expense of the forum.

Mind you Karan M ji, Sanku ji will not like the above comments and he will report the posts to Mods as he has done below

Sanku wrote:Mods, are you going to do something about the comedians

Anujan Ji will be getting concerned as an honest tax payer on Arjun Issues mentioned by you. Please, avoid giving him tension

Anujan wrote:It is the duty of every taxpayer to question why the production capacity of something trivial like torsion bars have not been ramped up.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Apr 2013 16:40

Viv S wrote:
You were always in a flame war with someone or the other, .

So basically you are back to your real status eh. Dropped the pretense of debate?

Happens when the points are blasted out of water.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Apr 2013 16:41

Karan M wrote: The two Russia rakshaks, who else. A couple of stirrers pop up from time to time but the Russia rakshaks are consistent.

I have reported this and personal attacks.

If the mods dont act, I will reply in kind that will get the message across to you.

In a sense I welcome the personal attacks because it shows that the points are so completely demolished that there is nothing to do but attack the person -- however the joke has gone on long enough.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Apr 2013 16:48

Drishyaman wrote: But, bottom line is does Arjun currently have any problem with its suspension ?

As of 2008, it appears that the issues are solved since now problems have since been reported. However since these problems existed for such a long time and dogged Arjun program severly with issues found even during the 2006-2007 AUCRT -- frankly personally I would always give qualified all clear.

But just so that we are on the same page -- my reason for making the post was not that Arjun has issues in suspension, that was a different debate, but more to show that the issues involved in torsion bar comedy is actually not understood by those who think its comic.

I just tried to clarify the muddy water as I found Anujan ji seriously concerned with Arjun’s Torsion Bar Issues. And I honestly, tried to pull him out of the comedy (according to Sanku ji) that people were having here.

Drishyman ji, Anujan ji does his above song and dance routine every one in a few months. He thinks this is being clever. I think its tiring.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 16:49

Actually the Russia Rakshaks was about other suspects who usually pop up to spam this thread as well.

Coming to posts and admins, And what about this, eh?

Karan M, you should not let emotions cloud your views on truth, and you are not a 50 cent poster, if you say that I am wrong, PROVE it with a open data point.

Gee, so you get to decide who is a 50 cent poster or not, whose emotions are clouding their views on truth, call other posters trolls, comedians etc etc and yet you have the gall to run to the admins each time your bombast is punctured.

I think the admins can see through your games instead of you spamming the report post function.

And as regards your reply in kind threat, go ahead - we all know what you really are, despite all the faux attempt at being berry berry highbhrow and misspellings that you employ in your advice to all and sundry.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 16:54

Drishyaman wrote:Mind you Karan M ji, Sanku ji will not like the above comments and he will report the posts to Mods as he has done below

Sanku wrote:Mods, are you going to do something about the comedians

Dhrishyaman, Sanku-ji can continue to be worried about the "comedians". They are not going to go anyway anytime soon. The only recourse left to those appalled by how a single poster has wrecked this thread through brazen spam, is to respond with sardonic humor.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 16:59

NRao wrote:For the MK II:

Elbit Systems Electro-optics Elop Ltd (ELOP) on March 20 (2013) was awarded an approximately US$80 million contract for supplying major elements of the vectronics suite for the 118 Arjun Mk1A main battle tanks (MBT) that were ordered for the Indian Army last January. ELOP will complete all deliveries by 2015. Each vectronics suite will include ELOP-supplied Advanced laser warning & countermeasures system (ALWACS) and the commander’s open-architecture panoramic sight (COAPS). The ALWACS will include four E-LWS sensors that can detect, categorise and pinpoint laser sources, including rangefinders, designators, beam-riders, and infra-red illuminators. E-LWS also enables direction indication for all threats, as well as audio and visual warnings. It is immune to reflection, gunfire, lightning, fire and self-electro-optical operations. The other two components of ALWACS are an IR jammer, and two 8-launcher aerosol smoke screening systems. The COAPS is a dual axis stabilised line-of-sight, remote-operated, periscopic system for independent target acquisition, battlefield surveillance and main gun firing in a ‘hunter-killer’ auto-track mode. The COAPS will use a SAGEM-built Matis-STD thermal imager (to be supplied to ELOP as customer-furnished equipment) that operates in the 3-5 micron bandwidth, while the gunner’s sight will employ a THALES-built Catherine-FC thermal imager (to be supplied to ELOP as customer-furnished equipment), operating in the 8-12 micron bandwidth. The COAPS will also house an integrated Laser Target Tracker (LTT) for providing fire-control solutions for the CLGM laser-guided anti-helicopter missile.

Sengupta seems to be all over the place in this one - his name pops up as the author. The Gunners sight historically was from Sagem and it worked well. Why would they replace it with a Thales Catherine especially when the former worked in Indian heat and the latter doesn't.
Now he has decided CLGM is an anti helicopter missile as well. Not one of its functions but the function apparently. Just a bunch of speculation, it seems.

amit · Post by **amit** » 07 Apr 2013 17:00

Sanku wrote:frankly personally I would always give qualified all clear.

There the expert has spoken. End of story: khalash!

But expert ji does that mean that Arjuns are not fit to replace the T55s as reserve stock?

I say we should import some more tanks from Russia.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Apr 2013 17:02

Karan M wrote: Coming to posts and admins, And what about this, eh?

Karan M, you should not let emotions cloud your views on truth, and you are not a 50 cent poster, if you say that I am wrong, PROVE it with a open data point.
Gee, so you get to decide who is a 50 cent poster or not, whose emotions are clouding their views on truth, call other posters trolls, comedians etc etc and yet you have the gall to run to the admins each time your bombast is punctured.
.

Karan M, I reply to the posters in kind AFTER only reporting them and in a much lesser vein.

So I made that post because it was the first time you had chosen to take the personal attacks on me instead of a reasoned debate.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1434953

How about this?
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1434806

Sanku wrote:
Karan M wrote:Arun Menon, you are talking to somebody with no interest in the truth, but merely interested in repeating dubious claims to win arguments on the net. Dont waste your time.
Its not INVAR alone but also the dubious behaviour regarding giving even the codes for the ballistic computer to load indian made/third party ammo into the T-90. Ultimately Tata had to be roped in.
Many other such incidents besides.
Karan M, you should not let emotions cloud your views on truth, and you are not a 50 cent poster, if you say that I am wrong, PROVE it with a open data point.

Otherwise all these personal attack based on opinions is getting tiring.

And no, sorry chai walla infor does not count.

I could have replied in the same way that you did, but took once chance of making a request instead of reporting/attacking you in the same way. You chose to not answer the question of why I was wrong, but chose to make a personal attack out of the blue in discussion with another poster.

And now you are crying that you have been hurt?

Selectively quoting at best ? Eh.

In any case, yes the mods, will or will not act as they see fit. From my part, I will always try and see the right way instead of the wrong way first.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 17:05

amit wrote:
Sanku wrote:frankly personally I would always give qualified all clear.
There the expert has spoken. End of story: khalash!

:ROTFL:

But expert ji does that mean that Arjuns are not fit to replace the T55s as reserve stock?

I say we should import some more thanks from Russia.

T55s are even lighter than T72 and T90. So now do these folks want Arjuns to replace T55s while panning Arjun on weight?

How logical this logic is?!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Apr 2013 17:07

N Rao wrote: . Why would they replace it with a Thales Catherine especially when the former worked in Indian heat and the latter doesn't.
.

Incorrect, the first integration of TI had some issues in specific conditions in Rajasthan summer in 2004. Since then the problem was resolved by tropicalizing the TI as well as increasing the space for TI housing for heat dissipation.

However both the above points have not official confirmations, neither the problem nor the solution -- both are from open media for what it is worth.

Also even the open media does not have any news of any issues since 2004.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Apr 2013 17:10

Karan M wrote:
T55s are even lighter than T72 and T90. So now do these folks want Arjuns to replace T55s while panning Arjun on weight?

How logical this logic is?!

The statement was in context of tech levels and fleet strength. Those crying that T 90s are being inducted while Arjuns are not, fail to see that forget T 90s, money is being spent on Upgding T 72s and T 55 are maintained in reserve.

It is sad that Karan M needs take "take a statement A to mean B and then knock it down" . Not expected from you.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 17:15

Sanku wrote:Karan M, I reply to the posters in kind AFTER only reporting them and in a much lesser vein.

So if you respond to posters in kind, why do you run to the admins and spam them constantly?
Trying to run with the hares and hunt with the hounds, eh?

Nice smart ploy, only its brazenly obvious...

Sanku wrote:
Karan M wrote:Arun Menon, you are talking to somebody with no interest in the truth, but merely interested in repeating dubious claims to win arguments on the net. Dont waste your time.
Its not INVAR alone but also the dubious behaviour regarding giving even the codes for the ballistic computer to load indian made/third party ammo into the T-90. Ultimately Tata had to be roped in.
Many other such incidents besides.

And where is the personal attack in that? Your behaviour as it stands is exactly that..ego driven and with zero interest in the truth..just regurgitation of googled up links which dont even back up what you claim, as I showed!!

On top of it you have the amazing tendency to dismiss any source that contradicts you as being motivated, not a sound data point etc etc.

Do you seriously think this sort of behaviour is normal! Do you think the rest of us have nothing better to do than listen to such rubbish all day long and play word games for you to "win arguments" by spamming us endlessly?

I could have replied in the same way that you did, but took once chance of making a request instead of reporting/attacking you in the same way. You chose to not answer the question of why I was wrong, but chose to make a personal attack out of the blue in discussion with another poster.

And now you are crying that you have been hurt?

I spoke up after seeing the manner in which you are degrading the quality of this forum. And unlike you, I realize that constantly engaging with you only feeds your spamming. Hence my post to Arun Menon.
As regards crying etc - the manner in which you constantly spam this board, spam the admins, spam everyone really shows you crave attention and are in want of it.

Selectively quoting at best ? Eh.

In any case, yes the mods, will or will not act as they see fit. From my part, I will always try and see the right way instead of the wrong way first.

[/quote]

Oh wow, here goes the shameless "i'll do the right way" bunkum etc.

Sau choohe khakhe billi hajj ko chali!

Seriously man, nobody here is as stupid as you think they are. Everyone recognizes you'll do anything and everything to win any crazy argument you start/pick up/decide is the end all.

Including all sorts of posts and running to admins at the same time, and then simultaneously wailing that you are the victim.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Apr 2013 17:17

^^ Nice try to turn the discussion about the poster rather than about the topic and trying to solve it by lynch-mob tactics. Sorry not biting.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 17:17

Sanku wrote: The statement was in context of tech levels and fleet strength. Those crying that T 90s are being inducted while Arjuns are not, fail to see that forget T 90s, money is being spent on Upgding T 72s and T 55 are maintained in reserve.

What??
The people who expect new inductions to go to frontline units are right. Whats the point of sending Arjuns to replace T55s in reserve (a statement which too needs corraboration btw).

It is sad that Karan M needs take "take a statement A to mean B and then knock it down" . Not expected from you.

You made no sense whatsoever. Try this.
http://www.flipkart.com/rapidex-english ... gpj3jczyg6

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 07 Apr 2013 17:19

Just a tid-bit. Not all the T-55 in the IA are in reserve as some of them are expected to take part in thick of combat, i believe. They are still in use in conjunction with KMT 5-M anti-mine trawls which are yet to be replaced. This video on IA Corps of Engineers shows a glimpse ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiHKMGo-7qs

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 17:20

Sanku wrote:^^ Nice try to turn the discussion about the poster rather than about the topic and trying to solve it by lynch-mob tactics. Sorry not biting.

Oh wow!! Suddenly you are worried about "the topic" instead of "50 cents", "comedians"!!

And suddenly a lynch mob is the new fear?!?

Where did John Rambo go? Who was busy threatening a few posts back:

If the mods dont act, I will reply in kind that will get the message across to you.

Waah re waah!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 17:21

nelson wrote:Just a tid-bit. Not all the T-55 in the IA are in reserve as some of them are expected to take part in thick of combat, i believe. They are still in use in junction with KMT 5-M anti-mine trawls which are yet to be replaced. This video on IA Corps of Engineers shows a glimpse ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiHKMGo-7qs

Exactly. And we were being told by the expert on all things armoured in IA, that these were in reserves.

Yet another accurate "datapoint" of the kind we have come to expect.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Apr 2013 17:26

nelson wrote:Just a tid-bit. Not all the T-55 in the IA are in reserve as some of them are expected to take part in thick of combat, i believe. They are still in use in junction with KMT 5-M anti-mine trawls which are yet to be replaced. This video on IA Corps of Engineers shows a glimpse ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiHKMGo-7qs

To add...

Even if the tanks are in reserve, that still does not mean that they are being sent to graveyard. That is why the word reserve is used. It is meant for secondary/attrition related use in war.

All reserves mean is that T 55 will not be the first to see battle.

From a numbers perspective, T 55 are still to be counted. So when more modern tanks are added older tanks will be sent to reserve, and the oldest, the ones in reserve, will be retired.

In any case, there are T 55s, there are T 72s which are only being upgd now. There is a long list of tanks far inferior to T 90s that IA still needs. So the numbers are all open for Arjun to come in. Unfortunately, the delays make all plans obsolete, and IA is forever scrambling to catch up.

manum · Post by **manum** » 07 Apr 2013 17:56

Sanku has a different opinion and its very well to have different opinion, otherwise everyone will sing same song...
So I think he is pretty much doing a favour. There is no point naming people here, however correct you are.

amit · Post by **amit** » 07 Apr 2013 19:53

^^^^^^^

opinion and fact are two different things. BTW there are two opinions at play here. One is that Arjun is a world-class tank developed from ground up and it should be given all the support it can get. In context of that the role of the Army is questioned.

The other is just buy Russian and that is evident in every thread and every product.

In the end a forum like this is a place to express opinions. But one would expect that given the nature of the forum the bias should be pro India.

How can buying foreign to the detriment of local be pro India.

Sometimes one should look at the basics of an issue.

amit · Post by **amit** » 07 Apr 2013 20:01

Sanku wrote:
N Rao wrote: . Why would they replace it with a Thales Catherine especially when the former worked in Indian heat and the latter doesn't.
.
Incorrect, the first integration of TI had some issues in specific conditions in Rajasthan summer in 2004. Since then the problem was resolved by tropicalizing the TI as well as increasing the space for TI housing for heat dissipation.

However both the above points have not official confirmations, neither the problem nor the solution -- both are from open media for what it is worth.

Also even the open media does not have any news of any issues since 2004.

Proof???

Your rants should pass the same smell test that you demand from others. Please no: I think, I know stuff. No chaiwala stuff also please. And yes no "track 2 Shukla" either.

manum · Post by **manum** » 07 Apr 2013 20:18

I also keep the same opinion as you...so you are agreed and so am I...Then where will be the discussion...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Apr 2013 20:37

He has an opinion?

Noticed on one of the previous pages that someone (Vic S?) had to tell him the numbers for MK I supplied per year, , etc, etc, etc. I would expect someone debating/discussing would know these things - does not have to agree with them, but certainly know both the sides (to the best possible). I do not see all posts, so I can only assume who was being told about those numbers. Based on that assumption I am questioning his opinion.

He also feel free to call anyone a name if they disagree with him. Cannot say now - but, it used to happen first. But seeing some of the other posts I can bet it is happening right now. "Comedian", etc are his making. Does he still over use emoticons? And praise someone who provides him with info (as a discussion) and then if the same person disagree tell that person he is reverting to being a joker? Best of all he then would complain to the mods (there is post in another thread where he complained that the same people were hounding him on multiple sites - wonder why?).

I used to find his data to be incomplete, and even when provided with data he would disregard it (this happened in the Transport thread WRT to the C-17 about a year+ ago).

To me he was very well informed about a few things and uniformed about others and unwilling to learn. Just me

But anyways, so much for that

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On the arjun topic, it seems rather simple to me. Arjuns should replace the T-90, the T-90 should replace the T-72 and the T-72 - IF AT ALL - should replace any T-54. It is important that the T-90 be phased out. I see no harm in retaining the T-90 for purely defensive purposes (say in the NE). (BTW, I just found out that the T-90MS - being deployed in the NE strike force - is actually heavier than the T-90S!!)

The lines closed for any T series work should be moved to the Arjun (cost + effort).

For the NE purchase/design+build/whatever a proper tank suitable for the region. (Seems to me that the "region" consists of really two regions: one on the Indian side which is very mountainous and the Tibetan one which is relatively flat. So perhaps the "light" tank should be for keeping the Chinese out and a more robust tank like the Arjun for the Tibetan plains.)

Meanwhile work on a lighter tank (designed in India please).

__________________________

Pro Indian ideas will necessarily appear to be anti other nations. Cannot avoid that.