Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 07 Apr 2013 20:58

IMO, what we have and will get to see till 2018 is

T-90S - Strike corps including independant armoured brigades
T-72 - All pivot corps less desert corps
Arjun - Desert pivot corps
T-90 MS - Strike/pivot in Northeast

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 07 Apr 2013 20:59

One of the things that posters in this thread fall victim to is selection bias.

There are several cases of T72 getting defeated in war yes, but that is because T72 HAS BEEN SCRUTINIZED MORE!!

Taken to the extreme: Obviously if you do not inspect something, you are never going to find anything wrong with it. In a similar vein, things that have been examined more thoroughly show faults. T72 has participated in many many battles, and that is why people are able to find many battles where they have been bested. How many actual warfighting scenario has Arjun participated it?

One more issue is that T72 has a HUGE export market. Its advantages and limitations are well known. So many armies around the world cannot be wrong in evaluating and choosing this tank. How many export orders does Arjun have? How many foreign countries have imported it? T90 is a substantial evolution and improvement over T72. If T72 itself is this good, imagine how good T90 would be.

The real proof of Arjun's ability would be if it found as big an export market as T72/T90. Till then our ability to manufacture it and iron out difficulties should be treated with a grain of salt.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Apr 2013 21:12

nelson wrote:IMO, what we have and will get to see till 2018 is

T-90S - Strike corps including independant armoured brigades
T-72 - All pivot corps less desert corps
Arjun - Desert pivot corps
T-90 MS - Strike/pivot in Northeast

I think you are right.

But then that is what needs to be changed. For the Arjun has been judged to be the best among these set of tanks. As far as I know there is no argument about that.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 07 Apr 2013 21:29

Anujan wrote:One of the things that posters in this thread fall victim to is selection bias.

There are several cases of T72 getting defeated in war yes, but that is because T72 HAS BEEN SCRUTINIZED MORE!!

Taken to the extreme: Obviously if you do not inspect something, you are never going to find anything wrong with it. In a similar vein, things that have been examined more thoroughly show faults. T72 has participated in many many battles, and that is why people are able to find many battles where they have been bested. How many actual warfighting scenario has Arjun participated it?

One more issue is that T72 has a HUGE export market. Its advantages and limitations are well known. So many armies around the world cannot be wrong in evaluating and choosing this tank. How many export orders does Arjun have? How many foreign countries have imported it? T90 is a substantial evolution and improvement over T72. If T72 itself is this good, imagine how good T90 would be.

The real proof of Arjun's ability would be if it found as big an export market as T72/T90. Till then our ability to manufacture it and iron out difficulties should be treated with a grain of salt.

T72 rounds bounce off of Arjun at point blank range. There is no comparison or contest here. T72 is a hand gun while Arjun is an assault rifle. Although both have their place in the battle field. T72 as side arm for officers and Arjun as main stay assault rifle for the jawans.

In IA's case the role is reversed, the infatuation with light every thing continues

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 07 Apr 2013 22:24

Yes, but the rounds leave scratches on the Arjun's paintwork. Think about it in terms of a BMW v/s a Maruti. If you were the owner of a brand new BMW, wouldn't your blood pressure go up every time a little scratch appeared on the bodywork? With a Maruti 800, there's no such problem. It could get all sorts of scratches and dings, and you would barely notice. That's why the Maruti 800, and by extension, the T-90, are better suited to Indian conditions.

Also, think of it this way, all those T-72 rounds are wasted because they hit nothing but thin air. Why, you ask? Because the Arjuns that they are supposed to be tested against exist only on paper since HVF Avadhi can't manufacture them in numbers. Even the production of the little components is way behind schedule. I've heard that the plant hasn't manufactured a single torsion bar for the Arjun until now. And here we have misguided jingos calling for entire divisions to be equipped with this fantasy machine

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Apr 2013 23:11

amit wrote:
Sanku wrote:"N Rao">>
. Why would they replace it with a Thales Catherine especially when the former worked in Indian heat and the latter doesn't.

Incorrect, the first integration of TI had some issues in specific conditions in Rajasthan summer in 2004. Since then the problem was resolved by tropicalizing the TI as well as increasing the space for TI housing for heat dissipation.

However both the above points have not official confirmations, neither the problem nor the solution -- both are from open media for what it is worth.

Also even the open media does not have any news of any issues since 2004.
Proof???

Your rants should pass the same smell test that you demand from others. Please no: I think, I know stuff. No chaiwala stuff also please. And yes no "track 2 Shukla" either.

I say nothing without proof, go back and read, you keep coming back with page 1 question. In any case, since NRao made the claim the proof should be asked from him.

If you are honest about proof, ask him.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Apr 2013 23:12

amit wrote:^^^^^^^

opinion and fact are two different things. BTW there are two opinions at play here. One is that Arjun is a world-class tank developed from ground up and it should be given all the support it can get. In context of that the role of the Army is questioned.

The other is just buy Russian and that is evident in every thread and every product.

In the end a forum like this is a place to express opinions. But one would expect that given the nature of the forum the bias should be pro India.

How can buying foreign to the detriment of local be pro India.

Sometimes one should look at the basics of an issue.

I challenge you to show a statement to prove the above. Mods seem to have given you a way too long a rope to make unsubstantiated comments.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Apr 2013 23:17

NRao wrote: On the arjun topic, it seems rather simple to me. Arjuns should replace the T-90, the T-90 should replace the T-72 and the T-72 - IF AT ALL - should replace any T-54.

and

It is important that the T-90 be phased out..

So T 90s should replace about 1900 T 72s, but at the same time they should be phased out?

No this truly will bend the space time continuum.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Apr 2013 23:18

nelson wrote:IMO, what we have and will get to see till 2018 is

T-90S - Strike corps including independant armoured brigades
T-72 - All pivot corps less desert corps
Arjun - Desert pivot corps
T-90 MS - Strike/pivot in Northeast

Yes. This the reality, given the current state.

People passing off incredible logic as T 90s should both replace T 72 and also be phased out seem to have discovered a aladin a chirag.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Apr 2013 23:19

Mihir wrote:I've heard that the plant hasn't manufactured a single torsion bar for the Arjun until now.

You heard wrong. In fact I wonder what you heard right.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Apr 2013 23:22

Marten wrote:Fair points Mihir. We also have to point out that we get the Marutis the cost of a BMW, which is a superb value! \

Actually we get BMWs at the price of Maruti's this is causing deep discomfort to BMW manufacturers who see a great oppertunity to sell BMWs at the price of Bentlys (C 17) if the Maruti;s could be taken off the market.

Their salesmen are having sleepless nights and there fore tilting at having taken the Maruti's out of equation. They have recently hired a full paper to make sure people think if they are paying Maruti prices, they must be getting a bail gadi since the other vendor routinely over charges.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 07 Apr 2013 23:27

With Chinese on one side and terrorist pakis on the other side, hopefully our army has more focus on armor of enemies and how to penetrate it. T72s/T90s/Arjun tanks are in the same army and would not be facing each other.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 07 Apr 2013 23:28

I think one of the failures of Arjun has been the inability of its makers to convince buyers to buy them. You might say "Product should speak for itself, why rely on Marketing". But if you think about it, failure to market is a failure of the product too! It is clear that makers of Arjun are not interested in their product being bought, else they would have marketed it as much as T72 or T90. The fact that Army is not interested in buying Arjun and Arjun has not landed a single export order is proof of that.

If the makers of Arjun are not interested in people buying it in the first place, how do you think things like quality control, manufacturing and servicing in Avadi going to be? OTOH, whatever you say about the Russians, look at them hardselling the T90! That definitely shows how much interested they are in supporting their customers.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 07 Apr 2013 23:34

Has the defective gearbox from Renk been rectified? Last time metal shavings were found in the lubricant and gear teeth broke out. This is what happens when you buy engine from one supplier (MTU) and gearbox from another (Renk). I think DRDO evaluated a gearbox from Turbomeca, but maybe it didnt work out either?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Apr 2013 23:36

And here we have misguided jingos calling for entire divisions to be equipped with this fantasy machine.

(I am glad we did not have emoticons during the MKI era. Imagine pages after pages of emoticons instead of -ve comments on the MKI. MKI took a beating on BR for years !!!!!)

You are right. That is a concern if your info is right. However, there is a crutch India seems to be using - the T series. Get rid of that crutch and all these things should fall into place. As long as the Army, some one in the MoD or the politicians can lean on Russia to supply I really do not see Arjun coming into play. The 240 Arjuns ordered is - to me - the limit. The Russian claim that India wants 300 more T-90MSs will be my litmus test.

I am hoping that the next MBT (FMBT?) will kick in some time soon.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 23:38

The DRDO was actually evaluating a plasma combustion engine from Sirius Major to give the Arjun optimal thrust to weight ratio. Since they couldnt procure one, they went to buy a powerpack from the MTU-RENK combine (which is actually a joint venture and hence supplies the powerpack including the transmission to similar programs like the Leopard).

Clearly a DRDO failure since T-9000 will have plasma engines.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Apr 2013 23:40

vishvak wrote:With Chinese on one side and terrorist pakis on the other side, hopefully our army has more focus on armor of enemies and how to penetrate it. T72s/T90s/Arjun tanks are in the same army and would not be facing each other.

What uncommon common sense -- such posters should be banned from participating on this thread.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Apr 2013 23:41

Anujan wrote:Has the defective gearbox from Renk been rectified? Last time metal shavings were found in the lubricant and gear teeth broke out. This is what happens when you buy engine from one supplier (MTU) and gearbox from another (Renk). I think DRDO evaluated a gearbox from Turbomeca, but maybe it didnt work out either?

Yes Rao Inderjit Singh fixed them all with his hands, using the gear box from his tractor from Punjab as substitute.

vic · Post by **vic** » 07 Apr 2013 23:42

Considering elections are near, politicians need T-90 more than the Army!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 23:43

Anujan wrote:I think one of the failures of Arjun has been the inability of its makers to convince buyers to buy them. You might say "Product should speak for itself, why rely on Marketing". But if you think about it, failure to market is a failure of the product too! It is clear that makers of Arjun are not interested in their product being bought, else they would have marketed it as much as T72 or T90. The fact that Army is not interested in buying Arjun and Arjun has not landed a single export order is proof of that.

If the makers of Arjun are not interested in people buying it in the first place, how do you think things like quality control, manufacturing and servicing in Avadi going to be? OTOH, whatever you say about the Russians, look at them hardselling the T90! That definitely shows how much interested they are in supporting their customers.

You are right, all the DRDO has been doing is focusing on having the product clear trials, satisfy the Army and giving limited interviews to Indian media.

Whereas the successful T-90 experience shows:

1. It doesnt matter if the product flunks trials - they'll be inducted anyway. So go ahead and market it in every magazine out there and make all Russian fanboys go weak in their knees.
2. Keep bragging about unique Russian tank complex with no analogs and other Russo-marketo-babble and some will believe it.

Clearly, DRDO needs to hire Russians as consultants and learn how to sell items to India since the latter are experts in the process.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 23:44

vic wrote:Considering elections are near, politicians need T-90 more than the Army!

Anyhow the Pakistanis are our brothers and we cannot change geography.

manum · Post by **manum** » 07 Apr 2013 23:45

may be IA is more worried about load bearing capacity of bridges inside Porkistan, than in Indian Punjab...so trying to keep status quo with porkies in tank weight...

I cant imagine any other reason, because Indian bridges are manageable...

I am trying to imagine few more stupid reasons...

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 07 Apr 2013 23:46

I dont understand what this Arjun vs T90/T72 obsession is all about. Are they ever going to be shooting at each other in battle? Arent they all fighting on the same side? Then why all this comparative trials and can Arjun defeat T72 nonsense?

We should buy the tanks that are available in numbers that the Army knows how to use, that crews are trained on and logistics can support. Arjun has numerous lingering doubts and small-small defects. All the defects on T90 on the other hand are major and well known. That makes operating the T90 easier and more predictable.

manum · Post by **manum** » 07 Apr 2013 23:49

T90 is a great tank if it was not eating Arjun's share of pie...

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Apr 2013 23:50

Karan M wrote:The DRDO was actually evaluating a plasma combustion engine from Sirius Major to give the Arjun optimal thrust to weight ratio. Since they couldnt procure one, they went to buy a powerpack from the MTU-RENK combine (which is actually a joint venture and hence supplies the powerpack including the transmission to similar programs like the Leopard).

Clearly a DRDO failure since T-9000 will have plasma engines.

Ha ha

If people cared less of perceived H&D of DRDO, and more for actual well being of DRDO, people should worry about DRDO not being able to come up with the engine for Arjun, and new effort to make the 1500 HP engine being in a state of deep uncertainty rather than try and brow beat those who raise pertinent point into silence by a combination of lynch mob tactics, and when that fails, misplaced sarcasm, which is hardly funny.

Let us discuss, the reality, and if that is not as nice as some would want, the solution is not to make up a alternate reality.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 23:50

Anujan wrote:Arjun has numerous lingering doubts and small-small defects. All the defects on T90 on the other hand are major and well known. That makes operating the T90 easier and more predictable.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Apr 2013 23:52

manum wrote:T90 is a great tank if it was not eating Arjun's share of pie...

If the T-90 is a great tank, and the Arjun beat it fair and square, then how great is the Arjun? And why is teh Army going in - again perhaps? - for an inferior tank?

Am glad you note that the T-90 is eating into the Arjun pie.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Apr 2013 23:55

manum wrote:T90 is a great tank if it was not eating Arjun's share of pie...

It is not. T 90 is barely eating T 55 share of pie. We have T 55 programs (overhaul and reserve) and T 72 upgds.

The whole idea of blaming T 90 is something some people came up as a sort of defence mechanism. Personally I do not think there is any need for defence mechanism. Yes Arjun is coming along slower than ideal, but then, that is not wholly unexpected and understandable.

IA is persisting with Arjun despite that, and the work will be used for new generation of Indian tanks in one way or the other. Mk II, III etc. The real issue is that the MIC complex is not able to scale up for services requirements fast enough and that is a problem that MoD is not solving.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 23:55

Sanku wrote:Ha ha

If people cared less of perceived H&D of DRDO, and more for actual well being of DRDO, people should worry about DRDO not being able to come up with the engine for Arjun, and new effort to make the 1500 HP engine being in a state of deep uncertainty rather than try and brow beat those who raise pertinent point into silence by a combination of lynch mob tactics, and when that fails, misplaced sarcasm, which is hardly funny.

Looks like some people get their undergarments in a bunch (i.e. they are worried about their perceived H&D which is being torn to shreds by all the other posters!) because they can't handle some well directed sarcasm. Ergo, these poor soul(s) respond with inaccurate grammatically incorrect awkwardly phrased long sentences!!

The need for a 1500 HP engine, for the current Arjun is as obvious as is the need for Plasma drives from Sirius Major. In other words, if a current Arjun with 1400 HP engine + turbocharger can beat the T-90 fair and square, the plasma drives will do even better against the T-9000.

Let us discuss, the reality, and if that is not as nice as some would want, the solution is not to make up a alternate reality.

The reality as it exists in reality or as it exists in Sanku-land?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Apr 2013 23:56

Sanku wrote:The real issue is that the MIC complex is not able to scale up for services requirements fast enough and that is a problem that MoD is not solving.

Oooooh, the people on this board are blind!! Must use bold.

Why not use CAPS LOCK and FANCY COLORS as well Sanku-ji? Pretty please. Go on, you know you want to..

manum · Post by **manum** » 08 Apr 2013 00:00

I am all for Indian even if its inferior than latest, even if threat perception asks for mass induction of all the shit around like coffins during Kargil...
Even if it delays temporarily the preparedness of services...

Arjun is top class anyway...

The idea of perpetual new generation is a hogwash equally to integrating mass exported items due to immediate threat perception...

I just don't think Arjun lying in laboratory will do any good than upgrading Arjuns while being operational in all conditions...

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Apr 2013 00:03

Karan M wrote: You are right, all the DRDO has been doing is focusing on having the product clear trials, satisfy the Army and giving limited interviews to Indian media.

Whereas the successful T-90 experience shows:

1. It doesnt matter if the product flunks trials - they'll be inducted anyway. So go ahead and market it in every magazine out there and make all Russian fanboys go weak in their knees.
2. Keep bragging about unique Russian tank complex with no analogs and other Russo-marketo-babble and some will believe it.

Clearly, DRDO needs to hire Russians as consultants and learn how to sell items to India since the latter are experts in the process.

Well unfortunately for all the Arjun is not given a pass when it fails unlike T 90 -- there is no proof to back that.

Arjun has finally been given a go ahead after it could clear the tests -- just that problems found on T 90 were of far lesser magnitude, and turn around for fixes far faster.

If T 90 took as long as Arjun did to fix the issues, the T 90 induction would also suffer, but the advantage that one gets from buying from external vendors with experience is that they can fix issues faster. This is bound to happen. Getting upset about it is pointless.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Apr 2013 00:04

Marten wrote:Anujan, you can only build UP the manufacturing line if you have firm orders, and the ability to manage this line. You're right as far as is this tank/model/tranche/etc. available at the moment? I suspect it will never be entirely there as long as DGMF and supporters can manipulate the situation.

Not every item on an ASSEMBLY line requires to be rejigged. It's relatively easier to upgrade provided you have the actual lines in place. Contracts for any sub-assemblies take time esp. with Avadi and the MOD in the loop. I find it incredible that anyone would want to still say where are the tanks? Where the ^&&* are the orders, mate? We don't spare a second thought about funding production facility upgrades to Mother Roos while talking down our own factories, which btw will not improve unless they have the opportunity to learn from manufacturing experience.

Marten-ji, that is clearly a failure of MIC to not produce a tank that can be assembled in tranches of 1 tank at a time. Clearly production line failure and inability of MIC to scale up 1 tank at a time. 1 tank per year or if required 100 tanks the next year. Simple task onlee.

Other improvements needed to the Arjun are better paint (if T-72 shells bounce off, that will leave unsightly marks hain jee?), torsion bar improvements to the flawed hydropneumatic suspension, 125mm gun to replace 120mm (it is 5 mm more), 1500 HP powerplant right now (otherwise plasma drives from Sirius Major) and working long range missile + thermal major (since T-90 has had non working missiles and thermal imagers).

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Apr 2013 00:05

Karan M wrote:
Sanku wrote:The real issue is that the MIC complex is not able to scale up for services requirements fast enough and that is a problem that MoD is not solving.
Oooooh, the people on this board are blind!! Must use bold.

Why not use CAPS LOCK and FANCY COLORS as well Sanku-ji? Pretty please. Go on, you know you want to..

You are right, those who wont get it in simple manner, wont get it even if it is highlighted. However I would like to stress on certain points and I will, and your permission is not needed.

So yes, I think people should discuss reality and not try and hide behind make believe, thank you very much please.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Apr 2013 00:07

Sanku wrote:Well unfortunately for all the Arjun is not given a pass when it fails unlike T 90 -- there is no proof to back that.

Yes, since all proof that proves that what Sanku says is wrong is from disreputable sources.

Arjun has finally been given a go ahead after it could clear the tests -- just that problems found on T 90 were of far lesser magnitude, and turn around for fixes far faster.

Like the fix for the thermal imager which did not work well after the Arjuns were working and working and working...and the Ballistic Computers which could not fire non Russian rounds and .. and and...

If T 90 took as long as Arjun did to fix the issues, the T 90 induction would also suffer, but the advantage that one gets from buying from external vendors with experience is that they can fix issues faster. This is bound to happen. Getting upset about it is pointless.

Oooh external vendors with experience! How much experience did the aforesaid external vendor have with thermal sight integration?

Getting upset? Look who is going bold and all.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Apr 2013 00:10

Sanku wrote:You are right, those who wont get it in simple manner, wont get it even if it is highlighted.

In which case why do you keep spamming us with bold?

However I would like to stress on certain points and I will, and your permission is not needed.

So now a contradiction!! About turn.....!!

So yes, I think people should discuss reality and not try and hide behind make believe, thank you very much please.

In which case why do you post all that fiction in your posts? Are you confusing reality with make believe??

You "think people should discuss" ....and therein lies the problem Dear Thought Police...you are in no place to decide what people will think and should think.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Apr 2013 00:11

manum wrote:I am all for Indian even if its inferior than latest, even if threat perception asks for mass induction of all the shit around like coffins during Kargil...
Even if it delays temporarily the preparedness of services...

Arjun is top class anyway...

The idea of perpetual new generation is a hogwash equally to integrating mass exported items due to immediate threat perception...

I just don't think Arjun lying in laboratory will do any good than upgrading Arjuns while being operational in all conditions...

Please understand in the words of our resident online tank expert (paraphrased by Shri Anujan):

Arjun with minor faults << T-90 with major faults. All faults are known so T-90 is a better tank. Zimble.

On a less facetious note - the Arjun case is no less shameful than the Agusta helicopter one. A lot of skeletons are hidden and perhaps one day will be out.

There was a RFI out for any vendors to provide an AC/EMS to cool the innards of the T-90 to allow its electronics to function. The Arjun didn't. That says it all about what happens when an incompetent vendor tries to jury rig new generation electronics into an earlier gen system not designed for it. And what happens to a customer which deliberately ignores all the warning flags and doubles down on a losing bet despite having better options available locally.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Apr 2013 00:14

Marten wrote:Anujan, you can only build UP the manufacturing line if you have firm orders, and the ability to manage this line. You're right as far as is this tank/model/tranche/etc. available at the moment? I suspect it will never be entirely there as long as DGMF and supporters can manipulate the situation.

Not every item on an ASSEMBLY line requires to be rejigged. It's relatively easier to upgrade provided you have the actual lines in place. Contracts for any sub-assemblies take time esp. with Avadi and the MOD in the loop. I find it incredible that anyone would want to still say where are the tanks? Where the ^&&* are the orders, mate? We don't spare a second thought about funding production facility upgrades to Mother Roos while talking down our own factories, which btw will not improve unless they have the opportunity to learn from manufacturing experience.

There are firm orders, and all parties accept that.

Only on this thread 124+124 tank order is not a firm order. Elsewhere in real world it is a very firm order.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMX-56_Leclerc

Variants

series 1:
Leclerc T1 and T2: the pre-production variant. was only built in 17 copies.
Leclerc T3, T4 and T5: the final production configuration. 132 vehicles were built between 1992 and 1996.
series 2:

Total LeClerc

406 + 20 armoured recovery vehicles.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_1

Number built 420

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_2

Number built ~446

And I can go on and on.

And in any case since when did a OFB worry about economics in terms of production.

manum · Post by **manum** » 08 Apr 2013 00:16

T90 is institutionalized in IA...that is the problem, the first dent it received when Arjun outperformed it in trials...This is only going to spiral down...

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Apr 2013 00:18

Karan M wrote: So now a contradiction!! About turn.....!!

No contradiction, I do things in a certain way because I like to help those who are interested in serious discussion catch the emphasized points. Those who get it easily even better. Those who wont get it wont get it anyway. I thought it was pretty simple to understand that.

Anyway no problems, glad to have cleared that up.

In which case why do you post all that fiction in your posts? Are you confusing reality with make believe??
\.

The problem Karan, is that fiction is all on other side. That is why all some posts have no content but continuous personal attacks.

My posts have all data which can be backed with open sources.