Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012

[Indranil]

why would HAL be just the design house when the dough is in manufacturing/MRO?

Err...because Indians want them to? They are a public company and we are the public. They have a long and well-documented history that would justify this idea.

I believe very firmly that if we took HAL/GTRE/OFB as-is today and placed them under the management of our top private companies, 90% of our problems would be solved. They would still remain 100% Indian companies, fully run by Indians and with 100% Indian interests as a goal. A majority of the engineers, managers and workers would remain with probably better pay. Most of the crap will be removed, including the sycophants, yes-men and hangers-on, and everyone from top to bottom will be on a "perform or perish" understanding like most Indians in real-world jobs, not wasteful, make-believe govt jobs. At the least, it would be an improvement over the intolerable situation that exists today. We simply cannot afford it.

I don't think a public-sector company is not accountable to the public's wishes and wants. It is a company which is accountable to do the jobs assigned to it and the well-being of the company and its employees.

The only thing that is different from the private sector and the public sector is the amount of accountability and the rewards. Built in a system of rewarding on-time supplies and punishing delays (as the IAF chief suggests) and you will see a lot of change.

[Indranil]

HAL's press release on civil aviation

100-Seat Transport Aircraft in Future: Ajit Singh

Bangalore, April 16, 2013: Mr. Ajit Singh, Civil Aviation Minister has said efforts will be made to get HAL’s Advance Light Helicopter (ALH-Dhruv) certified by Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in near future. Inaugurating the FAA - Asia Pacific bilateral partners’ meeting hosted by HAL here today the Minister felt that a mechanism needs to be evolved to benefit the bilateral countries involved in such agreements so that they could export or import aeronautical parts mutually.

"We also have a national civil aircraft development program for 100-seat medium transport aircraft. Some of the country’s leading aeronautics and space scientists are spearheading the project and I hope this takes shape”, he added.

Dr. R.K. Tyagi, Chairman, HAL said the Company has been focusing on military aviation but now plans to diversify into civil market. “We have made a humble beginning with Dhruv civil variant as an offshoot of the military program. We now propose to play a leading role in India’s national civil aircraft development program as we have dedicated facilities at our transport division in Kanpur”, he added.

The three-day meet organized by Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) with the main focus on the aircraft certification, provides an opportunity for partner Civil Aviation Authorities (CAAs) from 11 countries to share methods for strengthening bilateral airworthiness relationships through enhanced resource sharing, communications and procedural improvements. It also seeks future direction for aircraft certification and international collaboration. Apart from the delegates from the USA, the participating Asia-Pacific countries include Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, China, Chinese Taipei, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Japan, Korea, Malaysia and hosts India.

Mr. Chris Carter from FAA and Mr. Arun Mishra, Director-General of Civil Aviation, also spoke on the occasion.

P.S. Should we start a thread on civil aviation in India: There is quite a lot to discuss NM-5, GA-8, GA-10, GA-18, NCAD, and the civil versions of MTA and Avro-replacement.

[Sanku]

All those for having a private company take up HTT-40 development, please answer these questions:
1. For production to start in 2017/2018(hard requirement), the prototype needs to be flying by 2015, which means the build should start in 2013. How will a private house start now and get a prototype in the air in 2015?

To be honest, it is difficult to see HAL meet these timelines too. HAL has a tendency to commit, take the order, and fulfill it at its leisure.

HAL is badly overloaded, has not met prior timelines, what basis or confidence do we have in this?

2. IAF with MoD wants the HS-748 replacement to be built (forget design) by the private sector.

Can you please provide more details about this?

There is no need to put in stuff about others knowledge btw, many can take that route and the result is always unpleasant.

[Indranil]

All those for having a private company take up HTT-40 development, please answer these questions:
1. For production to start in 2017/2018(hard requirement), the prototype needs to be flying by 2015, which means the build should start in 2013. How will a private house start now and get a prototype in the air in 2015?

To be honest, it is difficult to see HAL meet these timelines too. HAL has a tendency to commit, take the order, and fulfill it at its leisure.
HAL is badly overloaded, has not met prior timelines, what basis or confidence do we have in this?

On the basis that HAL has the design ready. It has the components like cockpit displays, canopy, instrumentation, ejection seats ready from IJT. That metal cutting for the first prototype happened last year. And that the writing is on the wall if HAL doesn't get the prototype flying by 2015.

2. IAF with MoD wants the HS-748 replacement to be built (forget design) by the private sector.

Can you please provide more details about this?

India Issues RFP For 56 Cargo Aircraft (I think the RFP was issued in 2011, as Industry picked Tata to lead IAF Avro successor program in 2011.)

India has issued a request for proposals for 56 cargo aircraft to replace its air force’s aging fleet of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.-built Hawker Siddeley 748M Avro aircraft, according to a defense ministry official.

Under the deal, the first 16 aircraft will be directly procured from the chosen foreign vendor, which will then have to partner with an Indian firm that will manufacture the remaining 40. Out of those 40, 16 must have 30% indigenous components, while 24 must have 60% locally procured parts, the official says.

The Indian air force (IAF) is looking at several options including IL-114 variants from the Russian Ilyushin Aviation Complex, Ukrainian An-148 Antonov, the twin-turboprop European EADS Casa C-295 and Italian Alenia C-27J Spartan medium-sized military transport aircraft.

“The RFP made it clear to foreign players that they will have to select an Indian partner for this project,” the official tells Aviation Week. The first aircraft is expected to be delivered in the next four to five years, after an official agreement is signed. The entire deal is estimated to be worth $2.5 billion to $3 billion.
...
The twin-engine aircraft is planned to have a 6-8 ton payload capacity, cruise speed of 800 kph (500 mph) and a range of 2,500-2,700 km (1,600-1,700 mi.).
...
State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) will not participate in the project because it is busy with the licensed production of Su-30MKI fighters and upgrades of the Mirage, MiG-29 and Jaguar aircraft for the IAF, the official says.
...

At AI'13, Def. Minister Antony cleared that the reason HAL not participating is not because it is busy. But because IAF wants this to be taken up for the private sector. He categorically said that HAL was angry because of this, but that this is good for HAL as it creates competition. However the response from the private sector has been very limited in spite of requests sent to Tata/Mahindra/Reliance/L&T etc.

There is no need to put in stuff about others knowledge btw, many can take that route and the result is always unpleasant.

Point taken and apologies extended. But sometimes the quality of posts go abysmally low to just prove a point.

[Sanku]

On the basis that HAL has the design ready. It has the components like cockpit displays, canopy, instrumentation, ejection seats ready from IJT. That metal cutting for the first prototype happened last year. And that the writing is on the wall if HAL doesn't get the prototype flying by 2015.

First points I do grant you, second I am not sure of (that existing design means turning out a working prototype on time). A better approach would be to announce this in advance, let everyone participate on common ground. If HAL is the only one who can put things up, so be it, but no need to dictate that upfront.

If they are no different from a pvt company then they should stop getting treated like a public company with favorable ear of MoD etc. (rhetorical device, of course they are a public company and are very different from a pvt one, their goals missions and everything else is different)

One cant give HAL a preferred platform and then expect others to compete. Folks must be given a chance on a equal footing.

[/quote]
Under the deal, the first 16 aircraft will be directly procured from the chosen foreign vendor, which will then have to partner with an Indian firm that will manufacture the remaining 40. Out of those 40, 16 must have 30% indigenous components, while 24 must have 60% locally procured parts, the official says.

However the response from the private sector has been very limited in spite of requests sent to Tata/Mahindra/Reliance/L&T etc.
[/quote]

I still do not understand this, the RFP/RFQ is to foreign vendors, they will chose domestic partners and the onus then transfers on them to make suitable arrangements.

Where does the MoD sending requests to XYZ and no suitable response comes in? Shouldn't the vendor work out directly?

[Indranil]

On the basis that HAL has the design ready. It has the components like cockpit displays, canopy, instrumentation, ejection seats ready from IJT. That metal cutting for the first prototype happened last year. And that the writing is on the wall if HAL doesn't get the prototype flying by 2015.

First points I do grant you, second I am not sure of (that existing design means turning out a working prototype on time). A better approach would be to announce this in advance, let everyone participate on common ground. If HAL is the only one who can put things up, so be it, but no need to dictate that upfront.

Sanku sir, I have said this again and again. If this was 2003, I would have said get the private players to build this. Give HAL consultancy fees.But in 2013, this is our only bet. HAL has a lot of the component LRUs. so you have to grant me this one too

If they are no different from a pvt company then they should stop getting treated like a public company with favorable ear of MoD etc. (rhetorical device, of course they are a public company and are very different from a pvt one, their goals missions and everything else is different)

One cant give HAL a preferred platform and then expect others to compete. Folks must be given a chance on a equal footing.

Definitely, I have always said this. When ANY projects come to fore, MoD should send out an RFP, and HAL should be one of the contenders. If HAL is the only contender, then HAL should get the project. Otherwise HAL should compete.

I still do not understand this, the RFP/RFQ is to foreign vendors, they will chose domestic partners and the onus then transfers on them to make suitable arrangements.

Where does the MoD sending requests to XYZ and no suitable response comes in? Shouldn't the vendor work out directly?

That is the ideal case. But in India, we don't have even a single player who could take up the project at this scale. So, IAF/MoD tried to instigate private players to come up with at least one principal agency (through a consortium of agencies if need be). The point that private players are putting forth is simple. Setting up an assembly line for 40 aircrafts will not even allow them to break even.

This is where the govt. should have come in and sweetened the deal by giving large incentives or increasing the number of orders. Or something like the An-32 replacements would also be these planes (with stronger engines). Or that the civilian version of this plane is going to be RTA-60 in addition to the RTA-90 being developed by NCAD team. Then provide incentives to all regional players to buy these planes. If MoD gets it right, we would have 2 civilian regional jets flying in the next decade, with a combined requirement of at least 400 planes. And may be a 3rd civilian jet would come from the civilian version of MTA.

[Victor]

How will a private house start now and get a prototype in the air in 2015?

The same way, HAL hopes to do it. Actually MoD should simply tell HAL to hand over all the designs and components they have worked on so far to the private companies but my guess is that the latter will probably decline and start from scratch. It's not that difficult--cockpit, ejection seat, engine, tires, brakes etc would be bought off the shelf even by HAL.

The puny Avro replacement "offer" by GoI betrays its insincerity. It knew very well that it would be rejected and could then turn around and berate them for being self-serving and not interested in defence. The Avro and An32 requirements are not that different and could be folded into one if the will exists. Let them give this to the private companies along with all the sops that they would give HAL and then lets see what happens. Or hand over the MTA project and fund it as robustly as they would HAL. It goes without saying that both HAL and GoI don't want this to happen for some reason.

[NRao]

It is nice to see such passion, but, in reality the process is too rigorous for just anyone to enter the picture when it comes to ANY aircraft.

"cockpit, ejection seat, engine, tires, brakes etc would be bought off the shelf even by HAL" - true, but the selection is preceded by a design, for which anyone needs a competent design team.

Then comes integration (as part of the design).

And, then comes the kicker - testing and certification. There is really no entity in India that is competent to do this. HAL is the best India has. And even they are not experienced (which is what the FGFA project should have bought India).

And, then, civilian aircrafts are worse. Precisely because they are civilian.

Then who in the civilian effort is going to carry the risk?

In all this there can be no finger-pointing, harsh words, etc.

No aircraft effort is "puny", it just cannot be. It is one field that cannot be underestimated nor given up.

[Indranil]

Victorji, I have to disagree with you on almost all counts. I will give my reasons.

The same way, HAL hopes to do it. Actually MoD should simply tell HAL to hand over all the designs and components they have worked on so far to the private companies but my guess is that the latter will probably decline and start from scratch.

Why would/should HAL do it? It did the hard work of designing the HTT-40. It brought HTT-40 back to its reckoning almost certain cancellation. Why would HAL part with everything. And suppose HAL passes it on, you think the private sector will suddenly understand how to build all of this together from the second day? And that OEMs of engines/ejection seats etc. would take the risk of supplying and undergoing tests and everything with such a high risk project? For the amount of tests that goes into any part, just check any of the tenders for components. For engines, for e.g. the OEM involvement before the first engine is fitted is close to 18 months.

It's not that difficult--cockpit, ejection seat, engine, tires, brakes etc would be bought off the shelf even by HAL.

You must be kidding. If it is not difficult, you would not have less 10 military trainers in the world. By the way, the number of aerobatic plane builders in the world can also be counted on one's fingers.

The puny Avro replacement "offer" by GoI betrays its insincerity. It knew very well that it would be rejected and could then turn around and berate them for being self-serving and not interested in defence. The Avro and An32 requirements are not that different and could be folded into one if the will exists. Let them give this to the private companies along with all the sops that they would give HAL and then lets see what happens. Or hand over the MTA project and fund it as robustly as they would HAL. It goes without saying that both HAL and GoI don't want this to happen for some reason.

First of all, inviting the private players for the Avro replacement order is not by GoI. It was IAF's plan, assembling a plane from CKDs and SKDs is the first step to take before building a plane from scratch as in the case of HTT-40. Well, I can turn the table around and ask why doesn't Tata go to IAF and say, "I am in if you give me the An-32 follow on orders as well". Besides, if Tata has a replacement for An-32 and HAL doesn't, GoI/HAL can cry all it wants, but IAF will have to go with Tata's plane!

Actually the IAF did chose the right project to kickstart the private sector. Let us first learn to integrate an entire plane from CKDs first. On a transport plane, the primary integrator can source everything from within India besides the avionics and engines. This will allow the primary integrator to have 60% indeginization for the first step. Let us move on from there.

[dipys]

When foreign original OEM do not want to part with their IP and their technology, we cry foul and say how the foreigners are robbing the motherland with our own money. But I guess its ok to do the same to our own people, as we are already used to it, right? I just don't understand how can this issue be so complicated. HAL already has plenty of work in its kitty and it is getting preferential treatment in all of the defence deal. We are already covered with the Pilatus deal, so as it does not affect the current training regiment. So, when the opportunity is right to gradually integrate the private players, we don't want to do since they don't have experience, hence they cannot do work. But when it comes to parting with one single deal, they want cry as if the whole world is falling for them.

Reminds me of the case when i started working. Everywhere I applied, I was rejected on the ground that I was a fresher and didn't have experience. Well if I don't get a job and start working how the hell do I get the experience.

That's exactly the problem with us people. discourage anyone who wants to do something out of box and keep praising the emperor with no clothes.

[NRao]

We seem to compare various situations to producing an aircraft - jobs, Reliance's refinery effort, etc.

It just does not work that a way. Aircrafts are unique. They are very, very high risk entities.

It is just not possible to "give Reliance the drawing done by the HAL" . A private company can certainly perform certain functions in a very short period of time - sure. But to perform the entire cycle? Not possible.

It will take time and funds and over coming risks. And to reduce risks they will have to do all these in baby steps. Each one perfected, then the next.

And people just have no idea about the amount of research that goes into all this way before a design starts. When funding declines the least impacted area is research - it is impacted but not as much as others.



OK, HTT-40 is designed and produced by a private Indian company. Certified in India. It cannot fly anywhere else unless it is certified in other nations - granted certain groups of nations would suffice in certain cases. Cost goes up, modify it for some nations this way and yet others that way - cost goes up.

[Kartik]

I am not sure what the complaint is? Is complaint that HAL has more experience? Yes sure, but I am in favor of giving such lower end products to companies which have basic competencies for the same, so that they can push themselves up.

I'm not sure that designing and developing a turbo trainer is what I'd call low end. If all you've ever done is design sub-components or build to blue prints, then just working on the detail design of a composite turbo trainer is a big activity. But the aerodynamics of it all, where do you learn that from in such a short period? Without collaborating with NAL and HAL (or a foreign OEM such as Pilatus itself), I'm afraid I don't believe that either TAML or Mahindra would get a HTT-40 built on their own.

[Kartik]

All those for having a private company take up HTT-40 development, please answer these questions:
1. For production to start in 2017/2018(hard requirement), the prototype needs to be flying by 2015, which means the build should start in 2013. How will a private house start now and get a prototype in the air in 2015?
2. IAF with MoD wants the HS-748 replacement to be built (forget design) by the private sector. Where is the response? Mind you there is a lot of requirement for that kind of a plane in India and abroad. Also that kind of a plane can be easily developed into a civilian plane carrying 50-60 people. For Mahindra, it should be the next step up after GA-18!!!
3. @Kartik, why would HAL be just the design house when the dough is in manufacturing/MRO?

P.S. And for God's sake please read what the private sector can design now. If you equate NM-5/GA-8/GA-10/GA-18 to a military trainer, it speaks volumes of your knowledge. The HTT-40 is almost as heavy as the 18-seater GA-18. Can you imgaine the components inside it? And please equate Tata's capability of manufacturing aero-structures to print as design capability. If you really want to name a private company with design experience, it will only be TAAL.

Indranil, I feel that there is a blind belief among some posters here in the almost mythical capability of any private enterprise to come up with products magically. They have little or no domain experience, little to no infrastructure, and yet some people mistrust HAL and other PSUs so intensely that they believe that they’ll be able to hire new resources (mostly poached from HAL/ADA anyway as I’ve personally seen), set up infrastructure (because no private company has the requisite infrastructure to even design/integrate/test a BTT) and do all the requisite design work and then set up a manufacturing line in a jiffy..all this and they’ll get it all right in the first shot itself without the aircraft being overweight (which I can guarantee it will be). I don’t believe that such things happen in the real world. M&M did what was the most practical thing to acquire a product line (which is nowhere near being the same as real design experience) by acquiring Gipps Aero.

All this might still have been possible had the MoD and the IAF begun to look for a nationally designed/manufactured BTT way back in 2006 or so. Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) with their decades of assembling F-16s experience, are going to take around 6-7 years for the Hurkus to be certified and ready for delivery. I don’t believe that M&M or TAML on their own have anywhere near the experience TAI had, so even a 6-7 year program timeline will be very steep for them. But partnering a firm like HAL that has decades of experience in design/testing and integration, they might be able to achieve it.

Indranil, if a JV is signed, doesn’t the dough get shared between the JV partners? I know that HAL would rather do it on their own and keep all the money, but the MoD needs to get private players into the military design/manufacturing scheme of things.

The point you raised about the HS-748 is something I’d raised earlier too, when people were insisting that Reliance or other private players be allowed to take on HAL’s role in the MRCA- why is there no noise on that project? That is meant to be entirely done by private companies and yet Reliance/M&M/TAML aren’t touting their ability to basically licence build a transport. I have a gut feeling that the IAF is going to be disappointed with the response it gets from private industry on this program.

[Sanku]

I am not sure what the complaint is? Is complaint that HAL has more experience? Yes sure, but I am in favor of giving such lower end products to companies which have basic competencies for the same, so that they can push themselves up.

I'm not sure that designing and developing a turbo trainer is what I'd call low end. If all you've ever done is design sub-components or build to blue prints, then just working on the detail design of a composite turbo trainer is a big activity. But the aerodynamics of it all, where do you learn that from in such a short period? Without collaborating with NAL and HAL (or a foreign OEM such as Pilatus itself), I'm afraid I don't believe that either TAML or Mahindra would get a HTT-40 built on their own.

High end or low end are relative points. Here low end is only w.r.t. the spectrum of military aviation. Further, as I pointed out Mahindra's acquisition is indeed a OEM. Yes they have only made smaller commercial planes, and not a military trainer, in that sense they offer the same spectrum that Pilatus does modulo the trainer part.

I personally would not think the gap is too big.

In any event as I said before, there is no issue if these companies tie up with NAL etc. HAL might not want to do that for political reasons, but that is a different story.

[Sanku]

Sanku sir, I have said this again and again. If this was 2003, I would have said get the private players to build this. Give HAL consultancy fees.But in 2013, this is our only bet. HAL has a lot of the component LRUs. so you have to grant me this one too

Indranil-ji; I am afraid I will disagree. As others have said, it is a case where we are covered by Pilatus already. This is also not a critical (in terms of front line war fighting) requirement. Also just because HAL is ahead at this point of time (to which I agree), does it mean that its follow through is guaranteed.

This is a good opportunity to try with Pvt sector. HAL can always come in if they fail. As you know in case of tanks say, I have always maintained that the only solution is to fix Avadi. NO other solution will work. However this I believe is a fit case to involve the pvt sector.

On other issues, we have reached a agreement rather rapidly, including the Avro replacement issue. Clearly the structure and the method by MoD does not give any confidence of sincerity on the topic, so we can not use that as a benchmark for this exercise.

[Kartik]

IMO, letting HAL do it all on its own and seeing if they get a HTT-40 prototype in the air by 2015 is the least risk approach. Any other private sector company will not be able to get a prototype BTT (unless its basically just a carbon copy of some already flying BTT like the KAI KT-1 Woong Bee) in the air by 2015 on its own. Simply not possible. HAL at least has a good chance of achieving that.

But, the issue on hand which leads to mistrusting HAL is is HAL's inefficiency and lack of adherence to schedules which impacts the customer but does little to HAL itself except worsen its already tardy reputation. To that end, in this case, HAL is the one that stands to lose the most if they don't fly the HTT-40 on time- they lose out at least 37 orders.

the MoD must bring in a private player to manufacture the HTT-40 in a JV with HAL so that they at least get some relevant experience of a proper aerospace assembly line. Otherwise this stalemate will continue for perpetuity.

[Victor]

Nobody is denying that making a basic trainer is going to be a challenge but it is the easiest aircraft to build for the military and it is well within the expertise of any of our auto or engineering majors to make one very quickly and set up a production line for it. Let's remember that in this day and age there are ordinary civilians building 2 and 4-seaters in their garages and getting them FAA certified. Granted a basic trainer will be more involved than this but then a Tata or Mahindra is not your ordinary civilian either. It is not about capability but economics.

It will not help India to have a local company work with a foreign company in a ToT license build situation and we should dump this idiotic concept asap. We need to do everything ourselves except the engine and get to the level of an Embraer before we can go beyond. We have the capability in men and materials to do it but we need the economics. The govt should have a competition limited to a shortlist of qualified Indian private companies, give them all some seed development finance and guarantee the winner a solid order along with a reasonable profit that will keep the plant humming for 15-20 years, say 300-400 aircraft. The common aim should be helping each of them to come up with the best basic trainer they can. In a situation like this, they will gladly spend their own money for a shot at the prize. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for any of these companies to take more time than HAL. In fact it is very likely they will take less.

We have to get real about the PSUs. They and everything they have ever made or developed belong entirely to Indian taxpayers, including private Indian companies. Nothing belongs to them or to MoD. Asking "why should they give away xyz" completely ignores the basic fact that it is their duty to give. It is not theirs to choose whether to give. They are public servants and we (including the private companies) are the public.

[Austin]

US budget cut grounds joint air combat exercise

A showcase air combat exercise of the Indian Air Force with some of the best fighters in the world, scheduled to be held in July, has been called off after a series of budget cuts by Washington have affected the US military training programme.

While the IAF has been prepared for several months for the exercise that traditionally features the very latest of air combat technology and strategy, besides combat aircraft from several nations, it was informed about the cancellation a few days ago.

Sources said the high profile “Red Flag” exercise that was to be held at the Nellis Air Force base in Nevada in July was called off by the USAF due to a series of budget cuts that have affected the US military in recent months, which could even lead to the closing of several domestic military bases to save costs.

The last-minute cancellation has come as a surprise for the IAF which was getting ready to send a team of its top- line Su 30 MKI fighters along with support aircraft for the war game. Besides eight of the combat aircraft, the IAF was to send two C 130 J special operations aircraft, two IL 78 air refuellers as well as an IL 76 transport aircraft for logistics support.

This was to be the largest interaction of the IAF with its US counterpart in recent years, the last being the Red Flag exercise in 2008 where India sent its Su 30 MKI fighters.

As former air chief P V Naik said, the IAF has been very cautious in recent years while planning exercises and long overseas deployments to rationalise training costs.

In fact, the Nellis “Red Flag” exercise was planned two years ago, taking into account the money allocated to the IAF to conduct training programmes. By most estimates, the IAF would have incurred a cost of over Rs 100 crore to deploy the aircraft, along with the 150-odd personnel, for the exercise. The IAF will now have to re-plan its training schedule, but may not be able to squeeze in such a high-profile exercise due to the last-minute notice.

In the US, the cancellation of the air combat exercise comes after a series of budget cuts by the administration due to the economic crisis. With the defence budget this year remaining steady at $526.6 billion without accounting for inflation, cuts have been required to maintain US military’s global presence.

The US has also called off its Red Flag-Alaska exercise that was to take place this month and was to be attended by Canada and UK Air Forces. The Nellis exercise was called off after a series of new budget cuts that came into effect on March 1 in an attempt to save $ 300 million by temporarily curtailing training operations.

[vasu raya]

They could invest those Rs. 100cr into developing Kalaikunda into a similar facility as Nellis as envisioned by some

[Sanku]

US budget cut grounds joint air combat exercise

While the IAF has been prepared for several months for the exercise that traditionally features the very latest of air combat technology and strategy, besides combat aircraft from several nations, it was informed about the cancellation a few days ago.

Wow, how the world changes!!

[member_23455]

Actually, with the money saved from the Agusta cancellation, they could pump in much more at Maharajpur where TACDE (and proximity to the Rajasthan ranges) is and convert it into a desi Nellis.

Still quite a blow as Red Flag has some of best in class training in both NCW and LFE that is almost impossible to replicate with other folks - as is the opportunity to exercise with many other air forces and both teach and learn a few tricks of the trade from them.

Must be a real bummer for the younger guys.

[NRao]

There is no doubt about the need to introduce some new blood into this game. However, such introduction needs to be controlled, else it will dry up very quickly. This "control" should mean a long time - decades. It is not the capabilities that are in question, but the ability to remain in the game despite heavy odds against the new entrants - both of which are natural.

[Yagnasri]

That would be a great idea, except we will miss long distence deployment experiance etc. I also do not thing many nations which are regular part of Red Flag will readily come to India. Entire EU nations are now begging level and may not have funds to do anything for sometime.

We can start development now and start the programme and slowly it will get its own reputation and the participation will increase.

[NRao]

As a FYI, shows how difficult the industry is:

April 9, 2013 :: Japan Re-Emerges in the Aerospace Arena With a New Jet

[vasu raya]

The requirements for Augusta class choppers stand even if the deal is a no-go, and then Maharajpur probably is a sensitive location, while Kalaikunda has long hosted Singaporean F-16s and can work with Carrier borne aircraft as well I guess

[Indranil]

Nobody is denying that making a basic trainer is going to be a challenge but it is the easiest aircraft to build for the military and it is well within the expertise of any of our auto or engineering majors to make one very quickly and set up a production line for it. Let's remember that in this day and age there are ordinary civilians building 2 and 4-seaters in their garages and getting them FAA certified. Granted a basic trainer will be more involved than this but then a Tata or Mahindra is not your ordinary civilian either. It is not about capability but economics.

It will not help India to have a local company work with a foreign company in a ToT license build situation and we should dump this idiotic concept asap. We need to do everything ourselves except the engine and get to the level of an Embraer before we can go beyond. We have the capability in men and materials to do it but we need the economics. The govt should have a competition limited to a shortlist of qualified Indian private companies, give them all some seed development finance and guarantee the winner a solid order along with a reasonable profit that will keep the plant humming for 15-20 years, say 300-400 aircraft. The common aim should be helping each of them to come up with the best basic trainer they can. In a situation like this, they will gladly spend their own money for a shot at the prize. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for any of these companies to take more time than HAL. In fact it is very likely they will take less.

We have to get real about the PSUs. They and everything they have ever made or developed belong entirely to Indian taxpayers, including private Indian companies. Nothing belongs to them or to MoD. Asking "why should they give away xyz" completely ignores the basic fact that it is their duty to give. It is not theirs to choose whether to give. They are public servants and we (including the private companies) are the public.

Just give me 1 feasible timeline by which an interested private sector (if there exists 1) wold be able to produce a BTT from 2017-2018 and I will shut up. For your advantage, let us consider that HAL (somehow) passed the detailed design of the HTT-40 to the private agency today. By the way, the engine is not selected yet, the contenders would be known by the end of April.

For your reference, here are some timelines:
1. Mahindra Aerospace acquires design from NAL: NM-5 design spec finalized: 2006. First flight of prototype (2011, when time to build the prototype was only 10 months). Expected certification (mid to end of 2013). Let me remind you that Mahindra wanted to start the sale of the plane from 2010. Mahindra still doesn't accept orders for NM-5 whereas it has started accepting order for GA-10 which made its first flight in 2012 (why, because it has a assembly line of a very similar plane the GA-8 from which the GA-10 was developed).
2. TASL took 1.5 years to build the first cabin of the S-92. Remind you this is the cabin of a helicopter which is already certified. And I bow my hat to them for being able to do this.
3. TASL took the same time for the C-130 wing box. Once again component of an established plane. But even this is nothing short of amazing!

[Indranil]

Indranil, if a JV is signed, doesn’t the dough get shared between the JV partners? I know that HAL would rather do it on their own and keep all the money, but the MoD needs to get private players into the military design/manufacturing scheme of things.

There are 4 thoughts:

1. From the technical feasibility point of view a HAL-Tata JV will be able to pull it off. Basically HAL continues with developing/testing the prototypes and Tata readies the production line till 2016. HAL passes of the blueprints and Tata starts the assembly line from 2016, starting to roll out planes from 2017.

2. But from the economic feasibility point of view, I am not quite sure. Obviously, HAL is already quite stretched to provide a newly developed product at the price of serially produced PC-7 where the development price has long been amortized by the thousands of PC-7/PC-9/PC-21/T-6 flying around. My gut-feeling is that HAL is just breaking even or thereabouts. It is actually going to make the cut through the extra orders from Navy/exports and the MRO. Now splitting the profit might just make it unfeasible for either HAL or Tata.

3. May be the govt. can sweeten the deal through tax sops or grants. But why would HAL spare with the design knowledge and split the profit why would Tata take such a high risk with IAF already saying that there is no need for the HTT-40.

4. This is the first time during my lifetime, I have seen HAL putting in an initiative from its side. It has to produce or forget the orders. For the first time it has something to lose. Also, the young guys at the HTT-40 seem to have a lot of ownership of the project. Why not give them a chance. Why penalize HAL just because it is a PSU (I know you are with me on this one)?

[Indranil]

Indranil-ji; I am afraid I will disagree. As others have said, it is a case where we are covered by Pilatus already. This is also not a critical (in terms of front line war fighting) requirement. Also just because HAL is ahead at this point of time (to which I agree), does it mean that its follow through is guaranteed.

This is a good opportunity to try with Pvt sector. HAL can always come in if they fail. As you know in case of tanks say, I have always maintained that the only solution is to fix Avadi. NO other solution will work. However this I believe is a fit case to involve the pvt sector.

No 'ji' please.

With the private sector, I can't see how it is feasible to do it. There is no question of being covered by Pilatus. It will be more Pilatus orders, make no mistake.

With HAL, there is a chance of getting an Indian BTT. If not then we are covered by Pilatus.

I agree that a lot of lacuna exists in the public sector, and believe me I am a very right wing guy. I think everything should be based solely on merit. But that logic itself tells me that the private sector can't pull this off given the timelines. There is a very steep learning curve here. As I have said before if it was 2003, I would have been with you. In 2013, it is simply impossible if you ask me.

I rest my case.

[Victor]

Indranil, those are irrefutable facts about NM5. But they are not relevant to HTT40 and can't be compared to a standing IAF requirement with firm orders on the other end. How many orders exist for NM5? Were the available resources being used for existing orders/maintenence/service on Gipps' other planes?

But in the end, my earlier claim stands--whatever HAL can do, others can also do at least as well. If we start from a finished design, what can HAL do that Mahindra cannot? What existing resources will HAL use? Engineers, machinists, machine shop, jugaaded jigs? Both have them. Think about it, there is no magic sauce that HAL possesses that is not available freely to everyone, specially in an age when an Indian company can buy an existing foreign aircraft company lock, stock and barrel.

But all of our gassing here is wasteful and poinless unless everyone sees there is absolutely nothing special about HAL other than its abysmal record. It is a well-oiled and well-established rip-off on the Indian taxpayer. It was not always like this and I believe it has crept up on them after getting fat off of several screwdriver license build contracts. I am amazed and truly tip my hat at the rare successes they have had inspite of this. Finally, all the hot air that we expend on an internet forum has not even an iota of effect compared to the opinion of the end user--the IAF. And they want today's HAL to disappear in a puff of smoke, along with all the useless baggage which is holding Indian aerospace hostage.

[Indranil]

Indranil, those are irrefutable facts about NM5. But they are not relevant to HTT40 and can't be compared to a standing IAF requirement with firm orders on the other end. How many orders exist for NM5? Were the available resources being used for existing orders/maintenence/service on Gipps' other planes?

There lies a big mistake. There is no firm order from IAF. In fact there is a public statement. "Where is the need for that?" Hal needs to change this negative statement to positive orders.

But in the end, my earlier claim stands--whatever HAL can do, others can also do at least as well. If we start from a finished design, what can HAL do that Mahindra cannot? What existing resources will HAL use? Engineers, machinists, machine shop, jugaaded jigs? Both have them. Think about it, there is no magic sauce that HAL possesses that is not available freely to everyone, specially in an age when an Indian company can buy an existing foreign aircraft company lock, stock and barrel.

1. If you ask me it will be extremely difficult for HAL to fly a proto by 2015 and start serial production from 2017. A lot of stars have to line up. But with HAL we have a chance. Because the work started 3-4 years back.
2. HAL already has a dedicated team working on it. The private sector if it decides today, will only be able to get the team together only after half an year.
3. Test rigs. They are the unglamorous but absolutely essential part of a design house. It will not make economic sense for any private agency to set up the entire gamut of test-rigs for just the BTT project. It only makes sense for HAL which designs and builds prototypes of many many aircrafts. These test rigs are built up with decades of design experience. Can you name any company worldwide (in modern times), whose first plane is a self-designed-tested BTT?

But all of our gassing here is wasteful and poinless unless everyone sees there is absolutely nothing special about HAL other than its abysmal record. It is a well-oiled and well-established rip-off on the Indian taxpayer. It was not always like this and I believe it has crept up on them after getting fat off of several screwdriver license build contracts. I am amazed and truly tip my hat at the rare successes they have had inspite of this. Finally, all the hot air that we expend on an internet forum has not even an iota of effect compared to the opinion of the end user--the IAF. And they want today's HAL to disappear in a puff of smoke, along with all the useless baggage which is holding Indian aerospace hostage.

I share some of frustration, but not all of it. If HAL closes shop today, what will happen to the aerospace industry in India? Even the small sub-contractors will die out. Every damn thing will be imported to the screw. HAL is needed by India, as much as HAL needs India. But the monopoly of HAL has to be broken. But the HTT-40 is not that project.

[Victor]

It will not make economic sense for any private agency to set up the entire gamut of test-rigs for just the BTT project.

Which is why I said the issue is economics, not capability. If GoI is really serious about bringing in the private sector (and killing its gravy train), they would PAY a new defence contractor for the jigs up front. US govt does this with new entrants to defence procurement because they want broad, deep roots in their MIC to keept it strong. Our govt and babus want swiss banks to be strong.

If HAL closes shop today, what will happen to the aerospace industry in India?

It is not for HAL to "close shop". In an ideal situation, it will plan for the transition over months and then quietly hand over the keys to new management. As I have said before, most of HAL's employees will retain their jobs, specially the newer ones. Many of the older ones and almost all the top layer will be pensioned off and some politicians' families would have to shop in London only 2 times a year instead of 4. Things could be worse--in the old Soviet Union (and in China today), they would be sent to the Gulag or shot. India's aerospace industry will bloom like a bamboo shoot on steroids.

Nothing anyone says can convince me of my firm belief that within todays' defence PSUs are hiding several world-class defence companies. I say this because I have seen the world's most powerful defence industry from the inside.

[aharam]

Hi,
It has been interesting following the thread on the HTT-40 go back and forth. Thought I'd inject some technical capability details to ahem liven it up. I don't really have an agenda or any particular opinion on public vs private sector.

To be somewhat precise, a basic trainer is actually quite basic. It differs from a commercial single engine private pilot aircraft in two major details. Engine performance and ceiling are quite a bit higher - more on this later - to learn aerobatic maneuvers, and it has an ejection seat to save you if and in some cases when you do something stupid. Other than that, there is not a whole lot more in a basic trainer. Some may argue that a trainer uses a stick instead of a column,with rudders straddling the stick, but that is not that uncommon even in commercial single engine aircraft.

The first question is engine power. You need it for basic combat flying, particularly for training someone on aerobatic flying. Your typical commercial single engine plane is relatively docile, stall it in a nose up attitude and it will dip its nose, gain airspeed and come out of the stall - most don't roll well and they all revert back to stable level flight if ou take our hands off the controls by design. Stall a jet and depending on how low your airspeed gets and your attitude, you can end up in a flat spin that kills you. Hence there are not too many commercial aircraft that can do barrel rolls, Immelmanns or split s maneuvers.

That said though, a basic trainer is simply a low wing, tricycle undercarriage aircraft with a big enough engine. That is surprisingly not that hard. Take a look at a mooney or a lancair. Pair them with an all glass cockpit and even a commercial turbo charged continental engine, and you have a pretty credible basic trainer. Now if you want to make this a light attack aircraft, that's a different story. Don't know of any commercial single engine planes with guns .

There is a category called experimental aircraft in the US that has a lot of true garage innovation and planes here don't require a lot in terms of certification in this category. Last few years, there have been some truly excellent aircraft, any of which could be the basis for a trainer. Another example is the velocity XL. Granted this is a pusher and no aerobatic aircraft, but it cruises at 25000 ft, and plans are available just like the lancair. Look at Burt Rutans designs for example.

A basic trainer doesn't have to be a Rolls Royce with plasma fusion engines . It's goal is to teach basic flying and combat maneuvers. The intermediate trainers job is to take you further. This is not beyond the reach of any competent group.

That said, my guess is the IAF is going with something that's flown for a while and proven in the field, instead of a new design that may have its own kinks and possibly kill novice pilots. The pilatus is not anything special otherwise.

Cheerios
Aharam

[NRao]

Good. Then let HAL build one and let every private company also build one each. And then the IAF can decide which one is the best for their use. HAL has already carried the risk, let the rest carry it too.

[pragnya]

i am surprised at hair splitting on an issue which IMO is non existant!! however some points as part of the debate.

1. IAF has already made it clear they don't want HTT-40, so any private sector co. entering the fray and spending on a whole setup as JV or otherwise is simply not feasible.

2. it is only because HAL with past experience in designing trainers (however bad they may have been but are still part of IAF fleet), the fact that they put forward a proposal 6 years back (amazing it was not sanctioned!) and have a design/team ready with a mock up already shown in AI 2013, they are throwing a challenge at the MOD/IAF - which IMO is good (rarely does it happen in India. no?). if i daresay they have a head start here over others.

now even if IAF does not buy it, i for one support HAL at the rare gumption shown in challenging the system - a first, for a DPSU!!!

now if a private co. wants to throw in it's hat (highly unlikely due to #1) in the ring it is most welcome. i support that too.

3. ideally, it would have been great if IAF/MOD had thrown open the BTT programme as an open competition '6 years back or earlier' - with HAL and whoever (in the indian pvt sector) wanted to be part of it as competitors and the best BTT could have won. it would have made sense for everyone both in terms of timelines with in which to achieve the product and which would have been available today.

but it was not to be!!! same mistakes/planning etc.. surprises any here?

if #3 had been acted upon, pvt sector would have been in a great position today not only because they would have actually got hands on experience, set up infra, created design teams, executed (had they won) and hence would have emerged as a real competitor to HAL which, eveyone here agrees, is needed to break the monopoly.

since that is not the case today, the issue IMO is irrelevant unless ofc the pvt sector still wants to enter the fray purely to establish themselves as credible competitors to HAL and showcase a BTT as a global product which i support - the same i did with HAL.

.............

indranil, good posts.

[NRao]

DRDO chief wants 7% of defence budget for R&D

[Indranil]

Aharam, I have great respect for you and your posts.

That said though, a basic trainer is simply a low wing, tricycle undercarriage aircraft with a big enough engine. That is surprisingly not that hard. Take a look at a mooney or a lancair. Pair them with an all glass cockpit and even a commercial turbo charged continental engine, and you have a pretty credible basic trainer. Now if you want to make this a light attack aircraft, that's a different story. Don't know of any commercial single engine planes with guns .

But will IAF accept such a plane. It did not accept the converted Grob.

A basic trainer doesn't have to be a Rolls Royce with plasma fusion engines . It's goal is to teach basic flying and combat maneuvers. The intermediate trainers job is to take you further. This is not beyond the reach of any competent group.

Definitely, a competent group can design and/or build a BTT. My question is can it build it by 2015? And serial produce it from 2017. I am doing back of the envelop calculations here. With rapid prototyping, the flying prototype can be built within 1 year. But before your flying prototype, the engine for the prototype needs to be instrumented, ejection mechanism tested, structural tests completed (these trainers are capable of taking 6-7 Gs). Given that these planes would be turboprops, the air intake has to be optimized and certified.

[Sanku]

Indranil-ji;

No 'ji' please.

With the private sector, I can't see how it is feasible to do it. There is no question of being covered by Pilatus. It will be more Pilatus orders, make no mistake.
.

Indranil, I am lost (frankly), what is the magical date about 2015/17? I dont understand that. It seems to be coming more from HALs decision to muscle in on a existing contract than any other requirement.

Also I agree with pragyna that we are gassing because since no such requirement has come from IAF, there will be no such need. I believe HAL is wasting its time fighting a battle instead of devoting its energies elsewhere.

If HAL can muscle its way in on a IAF contract which they have lost, and get themselves in, why not open it to others under conditions which work with them?

[vic]

Let's face it, for BTT it is better that HAL assembles HTT-40 from imported components rather than fully imported Pilatus. Pvt sector should be invited for RTA and NCA

[Indranil]

Indranil, I am lost (frankly), what is the magical date about 2015/17? I dont understand that. It seems to be coming more from HALs decision to muscle in on a existing contract than any other requirement.

2015 is when the last PC-7 is going to be delivered.

If HAL can muscle its way in on a IAF contract which they have lost, and get themselves in, why not open it to others under conditions which work with them?

It is open to everybody else. HAL has got no assistance. It is fair field.

[Sagar G]

When funding declines the least impacted area is research - it is impacted but not as much as others.

Which country are you talking about saar ??? This is India research is already a malnourished child and when there are budget cuts then even the few morsel of funding that it receives is snatched away from it. Our government still looks at research as a burden and not as a necessity or a national agenda.

Let's face it, for BTT it is better that HAL assembles HTT-40 from imported components rather than fully imported Pilatus. Pvt sector should be invited for RTA and NCA

The only two imported components are engine and ejection seat the rest is indigenous and the pvt. sector should first start putting some money behind R&D instead of whining and bitching all the time about not getting orders. If you have a good product in hand then the MoD will have a very tough time rejecting it.