Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[SSridhar]

We are also working on futuristic, new long-range surface-to-air missiles of 250 to 300 km range. {Is that the VLR-SAM that was announced in January this year ?}

SSridharji, which one do you mean? My take is that this is a brand new program, and not a derivative of an existing one (e.g. the LRSAM).

Karan, the LR-SAM (or Barak-8) with a range of 100 Kms was supposed to equip Kolkatta-class and was supposed to be a development effort between DRDO, BEL & IAI. The DRDO was supposed to have developed the two-pulse motor. While LR-SAM is for the Navy, MR-SAM is for the IAF. Then, there was a VLR-SAM announced in January 2013 with a range of 150 Kms. and work had reportedly already started. Now, there is a 300 Km range SAM which must be VVLR-SAM or ELR-SAM (Extra-Long Range-SAM). So, by the looks of it, it appears to be a new one. I just wanted to be sure I was getting it right.

[Singha]

it must be a totally new airframe. the AAD looks like a 50-70km type airframe its got to be pretty big to make it even 200km..just long and slim like the 9M96M2 would give 100-120km onlee. its got to have some meat on the bone this one.

unlike the russian giant/goliath missiles, its better we follow the SM-6 concept on this one and release a 2nd stage Astra2 type KV that is active radar and highly nimble enabling us to engage even agile targets far out...something which big SAMs generally fall short on , despite their paper ranges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-174_Standard_ERAM

it is 21feet long, 50cm fat, 250km range and 100,000ft ceiling ....

[nash]

IMO , it is the same missile which is announced on january, if we read the statement:

We are also working on futuristic, new long-range surface-to-air missiles of 250 to 300 km range

It means work is already going on and as far as range is concern, they might have updated the target range.

It may be the derivative of AAD because if we see the specs of THAAD, it is much lesser than AAD.

I would say AD1 or AD2 of phase 2 BMD program will be the possible spin off for this 250-300KM range SAM.

[Singha]

first goal of hypersonic brahmos should be find a way to work radar through nosecone. ideal to take down tankers, cargo ships and awacs once initial track is obtained from OTH radar or space sensors.

[member_23694]

Query :

1. Any information on the kind of advancement incorporated in the propulsion system of K series of missile that has ensured that
instead of 48 tonne Agni 3 with range of 3500 KM (warhead 2 T) we have a 20 tonne K 4 with similar range and warhead capability.

2. Considering the above , i would definitely request ISRO to start using such capability(along with composite ) for its current rocket like the 1st stage agni motor used in PSLV strap-ons to increase its payload capability.

Something like 1st stage of K4 missile to be used in PSLV strap on and the core stage weight further reduce with a more effecient rocket motor.

Any thoughts [if not overtly possible then covertly ]

[Karan M]

Karan, the LR-SAM (or Barak-8) with a range of 100 Kms was supposed to equip Kolkatta-class and was supposed to be a development effort between DRDO, BEL & IAI. The DRDO was supposed to have developed the two-pulse motor. While LR-SAM is for the Navy, MR-SAM is for the IAF.

Per what I understand, the LRSAM for the Navy is a 70 km class missile, while paradoxically, the MRSAM for the IAF will be around 100-120 km (presumably with a booster) corresponding to the Barak-8 ER mockups shown at the Paris Air Show

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/lebourge ... er_jpg.jpg

Then, there was a VLR-SAM announced in January 2013 with a range of 150 Kms. and work had reportedly already started. Now, there is a 300 Km range SAM which must be VVLR-SAM or ELR-SAM (Extra-Long Range-SAM). So, by the looks of it, it appears to be a new one. I just wanted to be sure I was getting it right.

Very interesting, I was unaware of a Jan-13 announcement or forgot. Will look it up, seems there is now an effort to develop an entire AD network.
The window for the overpriced S-3XXX SAMs is fast closing.

[Karan M]

I think DRDO got kind of arm-twisted into the LRSAM deal. They went along because nothing better was available & their in-house tech hadnt matured. It was a decent stop gap arrangement (though, with the LRSAM delays, the rationale for the decision is becoming more untenable).

My thoughts exactly. The man who pushed the LRSAM deal the most was also the person who cut Akash numbers to 2 squadrons from 8 earlier (this was later rescinded, 6 more squadrons were brought), ex CAS Tyagi. He was also in controversy as the Indian head of the Rafael group after retirement. Thereafter came the news of the Agusta Westland issue and his participation in track2 talks to boot (which was heavily criticized by the rtd mil community).
DRDO seems to have been given a fait accompli with the LRSAM and they made the best of it, taking as much as they could & customizing it for our needs.

But they must have always had the vision for the big thing, which they are going on their own

Correct. Another factor is that they now also have a lot of the technology for the essential building blocks for this system, from AESA radars (BMD and IAF AD programs) to the C3I (matured with Akash, BMD).

[kit]

During my recent visit to India..

Dude internet is no longer a childs playground.Be careful what you post and even infer to .. things could happen in ways you dont imagine

You should not quote the post to make such a point[/quote]

yes ., my mistake.thank you .

[SSridhar]

Very interesting, I was unaware of a Jan-13 announcement or forgot. Will look it up, seems there is now an effort to develop an entire AD network.
The window for the overpriced S-3XXX SAMs is fast closing.

See this.

[Karan M]

Thanks! This is interesting. Seems to be a significant revision of an original plan or as you said, a new missile in addition to this. I think its probably going to be this way:

SRSAM (15km), Akash, (25km) Akash Mk2 (35km), LRSAM (70km), MRSAM (120 km), ERSAM (250-300 km)

[mody]

DRDO got into the LRSAM/MRSAM project, mainly for the seekers.
We have most of the other building blocks for medium to long range high performance SAMs, but don't have the necessary seekers.

Hope we are getting the technology for the seekers from IAI, from the above projects. If not the complete overt transfer of technology, I'm sure DRDO will get bits and pieces covertly and will be able to observe and participate in the testing and qualification of the seekers and the missile.

This will help DRDO to develop its own systems in the future.

Any word on the Akash Mk2 or Akash ER with the 35-40 Kms range? Nothing has been mentioned about it in long time. Even Avinash Chander or Saraswat, did not say anything about it in their most recent interviews.

I hope Akash ER project is taken up and completed shortly and another 6-8 squadrons ordered, for deployment on the western border and also in the south.
Atleast 14-16 squadrons of MRSAM should also be ordered to get a total of 30-32 squadrons of mixed Akaksh/Akash-ER and MRSAM squadrons. A very robust air defence network is a must, if we are to face the lizard and pig together.

[NRao]

At 250-300 Kms range, they could be used for boost phase interception too - on the TSP side of the fence.

And, along with the Harpy and Harop drones should form a rather formidable defense system.

[Karan M]

DRDO got into the LRSAM/MRSAM project, mainly for the seekers.
We have most of the other building blocks for medium to long range high performance SAMs, but don't have the necessary seekers..

Thats not correct. The PAD seeker is Indian - made as a simplified derivative of the LCA MMR. The AAD seeker is also now indigenized.

From 2011.
http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2011/12/te ... ekers.html

[Karan M]

Any word on the Akash Mk2 or Akash ER with the 35-40 Kms range? Nothing has been mentioned about it in long time. Even Avinash Chander or Saraswat, did not say anything about it in their most recent interviews.

I hope Akash ER project is taken up and completed shortly and another 6-8 squadrons ordered, for deployment on the western border and also in the south.
Atleast 14-16 squadrons of MRSAM should also be ordered to get a total of 30-32 squadrons of mixed Akaksh/Akash-ER and MRSAM squadrons. A very robust air defence network is a must, if we are to face the lizard and pig together.

Good prediction!

http://www.spsaviation.net/exclusive/?i ... in-service

August 21, 2013: The indigenous Akash surface-to-air missile (SAM) has completed a year in deployed service with the Indian Air Force. With two active squadrons now in Gwalior and Lohegaon and two more coming up in forward areas of the North East, the system is acquitting itself satisfactorily in terms of preparedness parameters. The Indian Air Force ordered eight squadrons (two in December 2008 and six more in December 2010), receiving its first battery in March last year. The first squadron was raised in Gwalior, the second in Pune and the next two are coming up in the Northeast.

"The Akash is an extremely important system for the IAF. It has been a long development process, which has ended in success. The IAF is supporting the programme with its resources and commitment, and has been impressed with the capability it offers.We have ordered eight squadrons, which will replace the mission profile performed by our Pechora and OSA squadrons. In future, we may consider more," says a senior officer at Air HQ.

The IAF had an unfortunate series of failed customer tests in May-June last year, following the acceptance of units, though issues with the system were subsequently ironed out. The manufacture of the systems is being split between Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) and Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) for the IAF and Army (the latter has on order two regiments, ordered in March 2011). Things started rough in 2012 with certain delivery hiccups from BEL slowing down inductions, though the public sector undertakings (PSU) has since speeded up deliveries to keep deadlines with the IAF. Sources indicate the IAF has received 32 launchers so far for four squadrons. The Army has received four launchers so far for part of its first regiment. The Army is incidentally, considering placing orders for additional regiments.

The IAF will be conducting user launches periodically this year from the Integrated Test Range is Odisha, and will test the Akash in various mission profiles including a) far boundary interception, b) near boundary interception, b) high altitude interception, c) crossing and receding target interception, d) low-altitude and near boundary, e) multiple target interception, f) low altitude and far boundary interception, g) mid-altitude and mid-range, h) crossing and approaching, in addition to others. These profiles were demonstrated during user trials between 2007-2010.

The Akash programme team is now also working on the Mk.II version of the Akash, a programme formally sanctioned in May 2010. The Mk.II version envisages a 35-km range weapon with an expanded kill envelope and a higher degree of engagement and accuracy.

[pragnya]

Karan M/SSridhar,

please note the link below dt. Jan 04, 2011. these are basically meant for BMD system. aren't the ones being discussed now are the same as noted below?? what would be different if they indeed are different??

Chennai: Defence scientists in the country are set to raise the bar for excellence by trying to shoot down a missile at an altitude of 150 kilometres later this year.

He said the DRDO scientists were also planning to raise the altitude for interception gradually to upto 300 km.

DRDO to shoot down missile at 150km altitude

[member_20317]

^ seems so. If they were planning real SAMs then it is the Radar system that should ideally mature further and faster. For such long distance SAMs as 250-300 km, we would require VHF radar too and then the command post itself would get much more complex fusing data from many radars. We have not really heard of anything on this front.

[SaiK]

"gradually" could also mean establishing space based scanning, tracking and guidance capabilities. no?

[Lalmohan]

the VLR stuff could be 1 active and 1 passive sensor based combo - targeting awacs and tankers deep in the rear. if the awacs is forced to switch off, thats good enough

[Karan M]

Pragnya, thats a pretty good find. Only thing I can think of that counters that, is that if it was BMD, then it would be explicitly mentioned as such and not as a SAM. Which is why I think this program is different.

[ramana]

pragnya, That is definitely a BMD vehicle.
150km and then 300 km is upper atmosphere and re-entry altitudes

[Karan M]

PDV and AD1/AD2?

[Singha]

diff between SAM and BMD is BMD ceiling is based upon desired intercept altitude 150km is 450,000ft , 300km is 900,000feet. SAMs even the sa12 big ones max out to around 100,000feet only.....things very rarely fly above 55,000ft only the mig25 / 31 / SR71 / U2 inhabit that dark blue region.
SAMs could use a agile rocket powered 2nd stage...BMDs might use a hot or cold gas X-thruster...

[pragnya]

Pragnya, thats a pretty good find. Only thing I can think of that counters that, is that if it was BMD, then it would be explicitly mentioned as such and not as a SAM. Which is why I think this program is different.

pragnya, That is definitely a BMD vehicle.
150km and then 300 km is upper atmosphere and re-entry altitudes

i do know they are for the BMD as you can see in my post but pray tell what will fly so high other than BMs??

even if i were to use those to fly endo-atmospheric all the way in a diagonal upto 150/300km to take down tanker/awacs/sigit asset/ucav/aircraft, fact that the PDV is 'already' robust because of it being puposely built as such - only helps. isn't it?? after all even anti ballistic missile too is VLR SAM only. a missile which shoots a missile can shoot any other asset. that is my understanding.

is my understanding wrong?? if they are supposedly different, as being discusssed, then what would be different in terms of build, specs, tech etc.. between the PDV and VLR SAM??

[ramana]

VLR-SAM is just that. It wont shoot down incoming RVs as it wont have the intercept velocity.

I don't know a role for it but they might as they are working on it.

The Soviets used to have a long range SAM.

[SaiK]

HPL-DEW could be an option for RVs.

[member_20317]

VLR-SAM is just that. It wont shoot down incoming RVs as it wont have the intercept velocity.

I don't know a role for it but they might as they are working on it.

The Soviets used to have a long range SAM.

The G forces for the end game would be another difference for the missile fuselage. Is Prahaar a balastic mode missile. It it is then that could confirm the construction limitations.

[Singha]

2nd stage of SAM needs to pull around 45G if its a agile active homer.
no such high G is needed for ABM as its using long range off-board tracking to smoothly intercept a relatively straight target albeit at high crossing velocity.....

[member_20317]

The most extraordinary performance bar on G counts that was ever expressed ( ):

http://www.ausairpower.net/SP/DT-AAM-Ev ... h-2009.pdf

The converging technological trends for close
combat missiles relate to the use of imaging agile
gimbaled Focal Plane Array seekers with inertial
midcourse guidance packages and advanced
aerodynamics including thrust vectoring. Motor
impulse will progressively but incrementally
improve for the foreseeable future.

Such weapons will be capable of sustaining 60 to
90 G in the endgame, and will be resistant to most
countermeasures, other than lasers with the power
to burn through protective filters and destroy the
imaging array.

I have never heard any bigger a number for this turn performance.

Higher g force capability will allow more time to the sensor to cut through the counter measures. Then we have remember that the aircraft itself could be in high G turns at the time of launch.

[arun]

Next Agni V launch is September:

Second test-firing of Agni-V missile next month

[Karan M]

Singha, exactly. The AAD type missiles are optimized for speed, the higher the speed, the more the structural strength required for G turns. The SAMs are usually optimized for slightly lower speeds, but more G, and their sensor package tends to be different as well (RF seeker for mission A is not the same as the one required for B.

Also, the long range SAMs are useful for "sanitizing" entire swathes of airspace when considering long range AWACS and other surveillance aircraft. Considering a typical AWACs with a surveillance footprint of (say) 300 km. By forcing it to operate 200 odd km within its own airspace, that in itself has degraded the value of that asset! AWACS need to fly high to extend the radar range (which is limited by the radar horizon). In short, these strategic SAM assets can be very useful. Otherwise, during wartime, by flying just (say) 100 odd kms within their border, PAF/PLAAF AWACS can still monitor whats going on with Indian AFB, movement of assets etc, which then tells them the opportune moment to direct strikes or plan their defense.

[Karan M]

Ramana: CLGM is the LAHAT replacement for Arjuns (120 mm). Invar was for T-90s. Same concept for all 3 - laser guided ATGMs with CLGM/LAHAT having an optional anti helicopter role. Similar ranges. CLGM also had another name - SAMHO.

Another thing about LAHAT, hopefully replicated in CLGM is third party, NLOS designation. An Arjun hidden behind the berm can take the shot. One with a direct LOS to the target, entirely elsewhere can direct the missile. Sneaky.

There is also a difference between the two missiles - LAHAT and CLGM. The Refleks is technically a laser beam rider - its detector is in the rear of the missile and it homes in onto the center of the basket of reflected laser energy which is basically from a low power laser. But third party designation is not part of the package, and while the Refleks is harder theoretically to jam, fancy top attack modes are not possible. Though it does have a reasonably powerful tandem HEAT warhead which should it allow it to punch through current Chinese, Pakistani ERA protected tanks. The Indian Army is purchasing a huge number of Reflleks rounds as it is their silver bullet for heavy MBTs. The standard Russian BM42M fielded by T-90s and T-72s is increasingly long in the tooth and may not work against the frontal armor of emerging heavy MBTs.

The LAHAT on the other hand, is not beam riding, and theoretically, with the seeker in the nose, can be jammed BUT it gets around this with designation required only in the final few seconds before impact. Remember, both LAHAT and Refleks are missiles and depending on the range, their flight time can be tens of seconds, as versus a couple of seconds for a hypersonic dart (i.e. FSAPDS). Also, with the LAHAT, a fancy profile, including top attack can be done.
IMO, its no coincidence that the DRDO chose the LAHAT style design instead of the Refleks.

Coming to the Arjun MBT, the MK2 is clearly a very powerful upgrade. It not only includes the original FCS - which thoroughly outgunned the T90S in trials, but it also includes an autotracker, the laser designation for the LAHAT type missile (apparently both the LAHAT and Ukrainian Kombat are being considered per reports) but has this really powerful 360 degree swiveling commanders optronic hunter killer display as well. Its made by El-op and DRDO seems to have combined it with a Bangalore based firms image processing which allows true panoramic views. This hunter killer sight with Thermal Imaging, will make a huge difference. Auto tracking makes it easier for newer crew to still rack up consistently high scores in difficult conditions.

All in all, the CLGM is good news both for the MK2 but also for giving India its own lightweight ATGM alternative to the license produced Konkurs and Milan series missiles. Being wire guided they suffer from one inherent disadvantage - over long distances, the wire droops, which means it can get snagged in rocks and vegetation. Which is why, during the Kargil conflict, India did an emergency procurement of Kornet Laser Guided ATGMs for its infantry, reports at the time noted these were with blast warheads and for infantry use against sangars and the like.

[pragnya]

Any word on the Akash Mk2 or Akash ER with the 35-40 Kms range? Nothing has been mentioned about it in long time. Even Avinash Chander or Saraswat, did not say anything about it in their most recent interviews.

I hope Akash ER project is taken up and completed shortly and another 6-8 squadrons ordered, for deployment on the western border and also in the south.
Atleast 14-16 squadrons of MRSAM should also be ordered to get a total of 30-32 squadrons of mixed Akaksh/Akash-ER and MRSAM squadrons. A very robust air defence network is a must, if we are to face the lizard and pig together.

Good prediction!

http://www.spsaviation.net/exclusive/?i ... in-service

August 21, 2013: The indigenous Akash surface-to-air missile (SAM) has completed a year in deployed service with the Indian Air Force. With two active squadrons now in Gwalior and Lohegaon and two more coming up in forward areas of the North East, the system is acquitting itself satisfactorily in terms of preparedness parameters. The Indian Air Force ordered eight squadrons (two in December 2008 and six more in December 2010), receiving its first battery in March last year. The first squadron was raised in Gwalior, the second in Pune and the next two are coming up in the Northeast.

"The Akash is an extremely important system for the IAF. It has been a long development process, which has ended in success. The IAF is supporting the programme with its resources and commitment, and has been impressed with the capability it offers.We have ordered eight squadrons, which will replace the mission profile performed by our Pechora and OSA squadrons. In future, we may consider more," says a senior officer at Air HQ.

The IAF had an unfortunate series of failed customer tests in May-June last year, following the acceptance of units, though issues with the system were subsequently ironed out. The manufacture of the systems is being split between Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) and Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) for the IAF and Army (the latter has on order two regiments, ordered in March 2011). Things started rough in 2012 with certain delivery hiccups from BEL slowing down inductions, though the public sector undertakings (PSU) has since speeded up deliveries to keep deadlines with the IAF. Sources indicate the IAF has received 32 launchers so far for four squadrons. The Army has received four launchers so far for part of its first regiment. The Army is incidentally, considering placing orders for additional regiments.

The IAF will be conducting user launches periodically this year from the Integrated Test Range is Odisha, and will test the Akash in various mission profiles including a) far boundary interception, b) near boundary interception, b) high altitude interception, c) crossing and receding target interception, d) low-altitude and near boundary, e) multiple target interception, f) low altitude and far boundary interception, g) mid-altitude and mid-range, h) crossing and approaching, in addition to others. These profiles were demonstrated during user trials between 2007-2010.

The Akash programme team is now also working on the Mk.II version of the Akash, a programme formally sanctioned in May 2010. The Mk.II version envisages a 35-km range weapon with an expanded kill envelope and a higher degree of engagement and accuracy.

another link to what KaranM referred to -

EXCLUSIVE: Akash Mk-II SAM To Fly In Two Years

[vic]

A problem with beam rider is that there is a higher spread of the laser beam, so it tends to become more inaccurate with the increase of range. But its a way cheaper missile. A beam homer is more complicated, more accurate, more costly etc

[pushkar.bhat]

How is it indigenous if it is based on technology from Somchem?

Take a look at the article again. The author contradicts himself in the article itself, in second para he writes

India acquired new propellants after the Kargil conflict from Somchem in South Africa. The company had agreed to transfer the technology but got blacklisted before the transfer took place.

and in the next para he says,

However, for 10 years, the development of the propellants could not be carried out. The new indigenised propellants are based on the technology that Somchem provided to India.

So for the next ten years no development of the propellants took place, no ToT took place according to the author himself but still the bi-modular charge is based on ToT from Somchem.

Take a bow guys we have a "defence journalist".

Coming back to sanity from dec 2006 techfocus pg. 9

Indigenous Bi-modular Charge System for 155 mm Artillery Gun

Propellant for 155 mm Bofors howitzer gun is packed in cloth bags called bagged charges. These bagged charges possess several disadvantages; Incremental bags have to be removed or subtracted, removed propellant has to be destroyed by burning, results in wastage of time and propellant, and reduced rate of fire.

A bi-modular charge system comprises two types of modules to cover the complete firing range of 155 mm Howitzer. In total, firing range has been divided into five zones (in place of nine zones for bagged charges). Single-base propellant is used in zones 1 and 2 for lower zone, while triple-base propellant is used in zones 3 to 5 for higher zone. Combustible module provides a container for propellant and protects the propellant from the adverse atmospheric conditions, and is equipped with individual de-coppering and wear-reducing agent along with igniter.

DRDO has developed BMCS for 39 caliber 155 mm guns, which can also be used for 45/52 caliber 155 mm guns. Single-base propellants for zones 1 and 2 (lower zones) realising maximum range of 13 km and triple-base propellant for zones 3, 4 and 5 (higher zones) realising maximum range of 26 km for 39 caliber gun have been developed. Dynamic trials have established that indigenous BMCS are equivalent to imported BMCS in all respects like muzzle velocity and range.

So most probably these bi-modular charges are of indigenous origin.

Even more interesting is the first sentence of the last paragraph.

The technology was tried by the European forces in Afghanistan and they were satisfied with the propellants.

[pragnya]

due to the problems faced with R-77 earlier, it seems IAF has shifted to R-27s from Ukraine as its favoured BVR for Sukhoi/Migs.

is it a stop gap till ASTRA 1/2 come online?? how many R 27s are on order??

.................

any news of SPYDER QRSAM having been inducted?? 18 systems were on order to be inducted by aug 2012. is even the Spyder a stop gap till Maitri fructifies (deal signed in feb 2103)??

[Austin]

Interesting pictures coming from pre-MAKS , TOR-M2 seen on TATA Trucks.

http://i40.tinypic.com/2vttzpu.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/w00vn4.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/2ngfv53.jpg

[Singha]

we have a huge inventory of R77 from the su30 days. discarding them is simply not an option...they need to get fixed.
we have had R27 from the mig29S & later Mig21Bison days probably, with more purchased later for sukhois.

[member_20317]

Does anybody have any idea of the inventory of AAMs available with IAF?

TIA

[Sanku]

we have a huge inventory of R77 from the su30 days. discarding them is simply not an option...they need to get fixed.
we have had R27 from the mig29S & later Mig21Bison days probably, with more purchased later for sukhois.

Are not r-27,s and r-77s for fairly different roles? Can one be "replaced" with the other?

[Karan M]

Does anybody have any idea of the inventory of AAMs available with IAF?

TIA

Try sipri.se...its just a rough guide

Pragnya, the R27 purchases are mostly intend as replacements of our early stocks. They wouldn't replace the R77, unless these are advanced ARH versions of the R27.