Kargil War Thread - VI

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 01 Feb 2013 10:01

http://www.zemtv.com/2013/01/31/capital ... uary-2013/

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 01 Feb 2013 11:43

Must have been posted earlier, but a good watch

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 01 Feb 2013 16:09

ramana wrote:Two related news reports about KArgil from TSP:
James B wrote:Japan Times: North Korea’s missiles tied to Musharraf's Kargil blunder

Ramana: Kargil was an intelligence failure on our part in more than one way. The self imposed "respect LOC" constraint could have been removed (heck - even PoK recaptured) had we more solid intelligence about the lack of deployable nukes with the Pakis

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 Feb 2013 16:17

Mushy getting fired from all directions.

Musharraf crossed LoC, spent night in India in 1999

Weeks before hostilities erupted between Indian and Pakistani troops in the Kargil sector in 1999, Gen Pervez Musharraf crossed the Line of Control in a helicopter and spent a night at a location 11 km inside Indian territory, a former aide to the military ruler has said.

Col (retired) Ashfaq Hussain, who was a senior officer in the Pakistan Army's media arm, said Musharraf flew across the LoC on March 28, 1999 and travelled 11 km into the Indian side.

Musharraf, who was accompanied by Brig Masood Aslam, then commander of 80 Brigade, spent the night at a spot called Zikria Mustaqar, where Pakistani troops commanded by Col Amjad Shabbir were present.

Musharraf, who was then army chief, returned the next day. Hussain first made the revelation in his book 'Witness to Blunder: Kargil Story Unfolds', which was published in late 2008.

He repeated the assertion last night on a television talk show on the Kargil episode in the wake of Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz's assertion that the intrusions by Pakistani troops were planned by a group of four generals led by Musharraf.

Massive, massive intel failure if the COAS of TSPA was in Indian territory and we had no clue

He further said Pakistani troops first intruded into the Indian side of the LoC on December 18, 1998, when Captains Nadeem and Ali and Havaldar Lalik Jan were sent on a reconnaissance mission.

"They were never told about the aims and objectives of their mission. Even for a recce, they were not provided any briefing or objectives," he said.

Shortly after this, several units were told to cross the LoC and occupy positions on the Indian side. Several units competed with each other to go further into the Indian side.

The intrusions were spotted by a shepherd who informed Indian troops, he said

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 01 Feb 2013 17:23

So even our ABM system cannot defeat the Ghauri as even the missile doesn't know where it is going.

A good opportunity lost in 1999.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 01 Feb 2013 17:40

there is a good dialog in movie "guru" by Abhishek Bachchan:

"if people are taking about you , then you must be doing something good " (translated from hindi)

just think about the pace at which we are testing missiles , ordering Rafael , producing Akash n pinaka , introducing new projects that were not known before .

it look's to me that someone is getting nervous on the other side of border.

so what ever they say one thing is clear.

" they lost we won " it doesn't matter if there were political or army failures on there side its the win that really matters

also we did spare them on 65 & 71 wars & let them exist as a free state and we did provided them the 80 lakh rupees in 1947 so that they can start their country.

so whatever they say i could only hear the end of it that India won the kargil war.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 01 Feb 2013 18:10

sum-ji; the amount of noise that a coas visit would create would definitely become visible. it is likely that mushy's helicopter was using the same guidance system as the ghauri-dong and he probably visited abbotabad instead

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Feb 2013 21:06

Also its look like a sneak visit more than a triumphant stay at an occupied post. Also note it is supposed to be in March way before kargil flared up in May.
Maybe a that time ABV was visiting Lahore in his bus trip and Mushy had absconded.

India always(1971, 1999) sends the defeated TSPA dregs back hoping they pull a Tsar Army type revolt on the TSP.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 02 Feb 2013 00:21

ramana wrote:Also its look like a sneak visit more than a triumphant stay at an occupied post. Also note it is supposed to be in March way before kargil flared up in May.
Maybe a that time ABV was visiting Lahore in his bus trip and Mushy had absconded.

India always(1971, 1999) sends the defeated TSPA dregs back hoping they pull a Tsar Army type revolt on the TSP.

PA knew that the political situtaion would change and during 99 the political parties started behaving in a strange way sine money was being given to smaller parties for the vote of confidence

The Indian leftists and marixsts were plotting against the govt and also openly discussing this in the western nations.

Pak was trying to do a pincer on Indian state

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 03 Feb 2013 03:06

Musharraf displaying amnesia about the ass-kicking from the IA in Kargil. For any one still believing in the Aman ki asha crap, this is a required watching on why we can't trust the Porkis and their shenanigans about Siachen and Kashmir.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 03 Feb 2013 05:25

Nikhil T wrote:For any one still believing in the Aman ki asha crap, this is a required watching on why we can't trust the Porkis and their shenanigans about Siachen and Kashmir.

Come on you believe there are serious honest believers in the Aman Ki Asha crap?

Anyone who is sane or has basic common sense would know that what the Shitistanis say and do is one big taqiyya (Ass saving and time buying tactics to overcome their other serious challenges).

For those who do not have normal IQ it will be too late for them to have the tube-light moment till they have the demons literally in their houses demanding maal-e-ghanimat.

And finally those who are normal and intelligent and still toe the Aman Ki Asha bullcrap, well they are doing so for a purpose after all some idiots are 'useful' and have to serve their purpose.

So either way save your breadth and don't try to show the dharmic way to these willing jaichands and idiots.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Feb 2013 22:14

X-Post....

anupmisra wrote:Kargil war (please note that I am not calling it an incident or a half war) is turning out be a bigger blowback in pakiland than previously thought, with all the new revelations. Not sure if the following episodes of Capital Talk have been posted but it would be worth our time to do a carfeul review of the three episodes, draw a time line, infer the thought process amongst the military paki leadership, and perhaps revise our projections on the events that are likely to take place from now on (Hint: PA reaction to the Kargil enquiry commission).

First the links:

Capital Talk January 31 - part 1

Capital Talk January 31 - part 2

Capital Talk January 31 - part 3

Basically, Kargil war, for the pakis in my opinion, will turn out to be bigger than the one in 1965. One fundamental point that comes across is that the paki leadership (read: PA) is incapable of strategic thinking and only focuses on tactical moves for momentary gains. Secondly, PA has always underestimated their adversaries. Thirdly, no one (including those inbreds on the panel) even accepts the immorality, illegality and the uselessness of initiating the Kargil war. These same morons would have praised Musharraf if he had been successful in his tactical move.

Mushy had some other backing and things went awry. Hence the faithfools who were superceded, are now demanding their Shylock bargain.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 04 Feb 2013 22:37

Seriously who int he right mind believes anything Mushy says???? He of the 400% certainty

and ex chief VKS seriously needs to stay away from the temptation of opening his mouth to the media everytime.

His nonsense statement was not needed.

Mushy's world of lies is unscrambling for whatever internal puki fighting

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 04 Feb 2013 22:53

Surya wrote:Seriously who int he right mind believes anything Mushy says???? He of the 400% certainty

and ex chief VKS seriously needs to stay away from the temptation of opening his mouth to the media everytime.

His nonsense statement was not needed.

Mushy's world of lies is unscrambling for whatever internal puki fighting

Is there a video of Ex Chief VKS saying that ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Feb 2013 04:43

X-Post....

anupmisra wrote:Covering up the truth
by Asif Ezdi

The ‘revelations’ made in recent weeks by retired lieutenant general Shahid Aziz on the Pakistan Army’s involvement in the Kargil war of 1999 have added little to our knowledge of those events
Musharraf has predictably denied any responsibility for the fiasco and denigrated Aziz, a former confidante, as a “characterlessCharitraheen” person.
Following Aziz’s allegations, Musharraf has again claimed that the Kargil operation was a “big success militarily,” and that if Nawaz Sharif had not sought US diplomatic intervention, Pakistan would have “conquered” 300 square miles of Indian-held territory in Kashmir.
According to Ziauddin, Musharraf had actually pleaded with Nawaz to find a diplomatic way to enable the army to extricate itself from the imbroglio in which Musharraf had pushed it.
the Indians “overreacted” to Pakistan’s occupation of the Kargil heights by bringing into action their air force, four divisions and a heavy concentration of artillery and resorting to “mass attacks” to dislodge our troops.
Opposition leader Chaudhry Nisar Ali also claimed last week that he possessed evidence to prove that Musharraf withheld information about the operation from Nawaz.

The country is still feeling the negative impact of the reckless adventurism of Musharraf and his co-conspirators, and their lust for power.
An inquiry into Kargil is necessary
A handful of top generals drew up a foolhardy plan of operations on the basis of mistaken assumptions and were able to put it into action without let or hindrance, in the process bringing the country to the brink of full-scale war.
Inquiry commissions have mostly been set up in Pakistan not to find the truth but to cover it up, especially when top leaders or the military establishment are suspected of being involved.
AoA. Watch for more skeletons coming out of the closet.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Feb 2013 05:37

Is there a video of Ex Chief VKS saying that ?

i dont think so - but all major outlets have quoted him

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Feb 2013 06:37

Pioneer report quoting PTI

Mushy Hid Kargil even from ISI

Musharraf hid Kargil intrusions from ISI: former general .
Sunday, 03 February 2013 18:01 PTI | Islamabad

Former military ruler Pervez Musharraf kept such a tight lid on intrusions by Pakistani troops into Indian territory in Kargil in 1999 that the ISI learnt of the development when it intercepted Indian Army communications, a retired general says in his new book.

Lt Gen (retired) Shahid Aziz, who headed the analysis wing of the Inter-Services Intelligence at the time, writes that when he brought "strange wireless intercepts" to the notice of then ISI chief, Lt Gen Ziauddin Butt on May 3 or 4, 1999, he asked Aziz to keep the documents with himself.

Aziz says the intercepts made it clear that troops from 10 Corps had "carried out an aggressive operation" along the Line of Control.

In his book "For How Long This Silence", written in Urdu and released last week, Aziz says the entire operation in Kargil was planned and executed by then army chief Musharraf, Chief of General Staff Lt Gen Aziz Muhammad Khan, 10 Corps chief Lt Gen Mahmud Ahmad, and Maj Gen Javed Hassan, the chief of the Force Command Northern Areas.

Besides these four generals, "no other senior officer knew about the operation", Aziz writes.

"Even the staff of 10 Corps headquarters was unaware of the operation in the beginning. The Military Operations directorate also knew later when everything had been done," he says.

ISI chief Butt later acknowledged that Pakistani troops had taken control of many areas on the Indian side of the LoC that were empty or had for evacuated by Indian troops for winter.

Aziz writes that the communications intercepts showed the "nervousness" and "confused talk" on the Indian side.

"Indian forces seemed to be frightened. I said, 'It seems that our forces have conducted a major action in Kargil'," he writes.

At a briefing at the Military Operations directorate in early May that was also attended by Aziz, then Director General of Military Operations Maj Gen Tauqeer Zia said the orthern Light Infantry and other regular troops had "occupied empty hilltops in Kargil".

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 05 Feb 2013 07:58

^^ Hiding the plan from ISI is not believable. I think a lot of lies are being peddled along with some truths and half truths, as is normal for Pakistanis. Mushy has no reason to hide the plan from ISI because his ass will be roasted, when they eventually come to know about it as the plan unfolds. Also, ISI will be gleefully participate in these activities. We have to keep a bucket of salt ready when we read anything that is coming out of pakis, even the normal sounding ones.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 05 Feb 2013 08:03

It is quite clear from these videos that all Pakis', from their so called "officer class" to their "defense analyst" consider deceit, immorality, deception and breaking any agreements as a matter of "brilliance". Inbreeding definetely works!

I only pray (even though I'm a nastik) that it is time, India needs to show some immorality and to display it with might and real brilliance.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Feb 2013 09:22

They want to get Mushy.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Feb 2013 10:23

@rgsrini .. the plan was not hidden from ISI but only from some parts of ISI. DG ISI seemed to be know of things. If u hear Lt gen aziz carefully, He said he and others in ISI didnt know but when he finally confronted DG ISI, the DG knew abt it. i think the overriding concern of gang of four was secrecy. they did not want any unnecessary publicity of their plans.

whatever the truths or half truths, what was really astounding was the set of assumptions/stories with which they went to execute the plan... no reaction from India, international intervention, jehadis are doing the fighting, PA will sit on the heights comfortably, we will get siachen, kashmir in return !

in one of the videos Nasim Zehra tells us that in a military briefing during during onset of hostilities one of the gang of four says 'oh those indian baniyas cant fight "... that comin after 47,65 and 71 is quite a feat !!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 Feb 2013 13:22

what it also tells you is that despite all the secrecy there was no eyebrows raised at the raised level of military preparations, which tells you a lot about the hostile mindset of teh PA on the Indian border - business as usual being a state of hostility... aman ka what was that again?

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 06 Feb 2013 10:45

One of the Pakis who killed Lt Saurabh Kalia:

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 07 Feb 2013 03:55

Till today I just mocked their artificial set the not so convinced audience and the general tackiness.

But I am glad to have seen the face of the first of their actual murderers. He is not a soldier but a frecking terrorist and enemy combatant.
At least the ******** should have had the guts to say we tortured and mutilated him.
Bloody Chicken Sh1t cowards

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 07 Feb 2013 08:28

Perhaps we need a war criminals section on BRF. This person should be added there!

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 13 Feb 2013 22:26

The Units We Fought Were All Pakistan Army Regulars - INTERVIEW OF BRIGADIER SURINDER SINGH

Q.In a recent interview to The Sunday Guardian, General V.P. Malik said both the IB and RAW misled the army. Do you agree? Especially because you had forwarded specific information consistently through the relevant channels?

A.Does the brigade commander manufacture this sort of information? This information comes to us through the intelligence agencies—RAW and IB—which send it through army HQ, or the corps HQ or the division HQ. What I see is just what I see with the naked eye. I saw people with black dresses, I saw people digging—that is my information. And it is not manufactured by me! But the other resources are with the division HQ. So, to say those intelligence agencies fooled us...why, then, are we sitting up there—the brigade commander, GOC, corps commander and the chief?

Q.Why do you think they were trying to downplay the issue?

A.Initially, everything was handled haphazardly. For instance, they asked for attack helicopters from the air force when the actual war started. The air force refused to provide them immediately and asked the army to first inform the government and get a sanction. All this was happening while the chief was in Poland. Now, if nothing was happening, then why would they ask for attack helicopters from the air force? Why did they want to downplay the information? Was it just so General Malik’s plan of holidaying in Poland doesn’t go for a toss?

-Ankit

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 13 Feb 2013 22:40

Anurag wrote:It is quite clear from these videos that all Pakis', from their so called "officer class" to their "defense analyst" consider deceit, immorality, deception and breaking any agreements as a matter of "brilliance". Inbreeding definetely works!

I only pray (even though I'm a nastik) that it is time, India needs to show some immorality and to display it with might and real brilliance.

Was not American 'mediation', however uninvited, was given much more than zero importance at the end of the war? Not only barbarians running away at the end of war were spared, also some kind of legitimacy was given to soundbytes of 'mediation' - thereby the crimes of outright invasion, attacks on Indian defense personnel - the Army and Air Force as well and war crimes were ignored. This is a reason why after years all kind of nonsense is peddled by pakis. pukiess should have been given very bloody nose immediately during the last few days the barbarians were running away.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 13 Feb 2013 22:44

Ankit Desai wrote:The Units We Fought Were All Pakistan Army Regulars - INTERVIEW OF BRIGADIER SURINDER SINGH

Q.In a recent interview to The Sunday Guardian, General V.P. Malik said both the IB and RAW misled the army. Do you agree? Especially because you had forwarded specific information consistently through the relevant channels?

A.Does the brigade commander manufacture this sort of information? This information comes to us through the intelligence agencies—RAW and IB—which send it through army HQ, or the corps HQ or the division HQ. What I see is just what I see with the naked eye. I saw people with black dresses, I saw people digging—that is my information. And it is not manufactured by me! But the other resources are with the division HQ. So, to say those intelligence agencies fooled us...why, then, are we sitting up there—the brigade commander, GOC, corps commander and the chief?

Q.Why do you think they were trying to downplay the issue?

A.Initially, everything was handled haphazardly. For instance, they asked for attack helicopters from the air force when the actual war started. The air force refused to provide them immediately and asked the army to first inform the government and get a sanction. All this was happening while the chief was in Poland. Now, if nothing was happening, then why would they ask for attack helicopters from the air force? Why did they want to downplay the information? Was it just so General Malik’s plan of holidaying in Poland doesn’t go for a toss?
-Ankit

Shows why army demanded inclusion of attack helicopters for Army Aviation Corps more vigorously. And its developing perfectly with future acquisitions include Ruder(few already inducted), Apache, LCH.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 13 Feb 2013 22:46

Vivek K wrote:Perhaps we need a war criminals section on BRF. This person should be added there!

Could also have all those who were caught red handed in Bangladesh genocide, and those who invited them if any.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 21 Feb 2013 01:24

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-9 ... -of-Kargil
The unsung hero of Kargil ( Paki perspective)

The prime minister’s arrival in Washington was shrouded in mystery. The first reports of the visit came to the Pakistan Embassy not from our foreign office but the State Department. Everyone was caught unawares. Hurried meetings were called, confidential internal memos dug up, and briefs developed to be able to lay down all the necessary ground work for the emergency high-octane meeting. Nawaz Sharif arrived on July 3 at Andrews Airbase and was received by Prince Bandar Bin Sultan, the Saudi Ambassador to the US, and then taken for intense briefings.By the time Nawaz Sharif touched down in Washington to defuse the situation, the entire world had descended on us in the Pakistan Embassy with Pakistan being criticised heavily, both in the print and the electronic media. In this backdrop, Nawaz Sharif battled his way up – pleading with the world to give diplomacy a chance.Saudi intervention on Nawaz Sharif’s SOS call made this possible. And the man who could work this miracle was Prince Bandar Bin Sultan.He staunchly supported the idea of forging close relations with Pakistan and China and believed that Pakistan was under-utilising its potential. He once asked former interim Prime Minister Moeen Qureshi: “I don’t understand why Pakistan is always afraid of Indian chicken”. He made China deliver intermediate range nuclear-warhead capable missiles despite strong opposition from CIA and the Department of State. During the Iran-Contra scandal, he bankrolled the whole affair.

Sharif never doubted a military take over. While the agreement was being documented, his anxiety was also mounting: “They will get me Mr President,” he whispered. Clinton quipped: “Yours is a rogue army. Keep them under civilian oversight”. Nawaz retorted: “It is not the army. It is (a) few dirty eggs. They will meddle to cover up the Kargil debacle”. And three months later, the military struck. The coup was inevitable. The ‘Dirty Four’ were afraid of a Kargil investigation and a possible court martial. Washington accepted it as a ‘fait accompli’.Gen Musharraf had the last laugh. In order to stay in power he hacked everything – faked the referendum, rigged the elections, pushed us into a war we never deserved, destroyed district administrations, packed the superior judiciary with cronies and finally left behind an NRO-tainted accidental leadership. Nawaz Sharif arranged an honourable exit from Kargil but missed the gallows by inches. Gen Shahid Aziz deserves respect for telling the truth – which is always in short supply in our country. If we still have a few good men in the army, they just need to wake up and come out with the truth.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 04 Jul 2013 16:35

The day India won back Tiger Hill

:
:
:
Today is the 14th anniversary of Tiger Hill victory. Lest we forget...

anirban_aim · Post by **anirban_aim** » 07 Jul 2013 15:08

Today's the Death Anniversary of Capt. Anuj Nayyar:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/HEROISM/Nayyar.html

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/fromndtv/281574

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 01 Oct 2013 11:09

CHANDIGARH: Did China support Pakistan during the Kargil war? The answer is in the affirmative if the claims of Chandigarh-based Brigadier Surinder Singh -- who was the commander of the 121-Brigade in Kargil at the time of the war -- are to be believed.

In a startling revelation, Singh, who himself was on the front when the 1999 India-Pakistan conflict broke out in Kargil, also claimed that his inputs about Chinese support to Pakistan during the Kargil war were ignored and even K Subrahmanyam, head of the Kargil review committee, made an adverse comment against his statements in the report.

Surinder Singh was the commander of "Kargil Brigade," which looked after 160 km border when the Kargil intrusion took place. The revelations are significant as the brigadier has filed a petition before the military tribunal, Chandigarh, demanding an independent probe into Kargil war. The matter is still pending.

In an article released on Wednesday, the brigadier asserted, "Before and during Kargil war, the Chinese had inducted and manned heavy artillery guns in the K2 gun position in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK), close to Kargil, and provided fire support to Pakistani Army during the war".

Surinder, who was the first officer removed from the services immediately after the war, has also asserted that China had supported Pakistan by moving their troops into Aksai Chin during the conflict. It is the same area where Chinese are intruding time and again now. "When this was discussed by me with the generals, it was not given due attention. When I propounded that the aims of the Chinese and the Pakistanis coincided in the Kargil/Ladakh area, it was glossed over. In fact, Subrahmanyam made an adverse comment against my thoughts in the Kargil review committee report," claimed the brigadier.

In his petition filed in 2001, Singh had not only sought professional restitution, but also an investigation into the Kargil war. Earlier, his petition was pending with Delhi high court, but after the constitution of Armed Forces Tribunal in Chandigarh, Singh got his case transferred here. He has also claimed in his petition that the threat perception conveyed by him to his immediate seniors was ignored and the senior commanders were giving more importance to activities unconnected to the defensive role of the Army in Kargil sector.

China helped Pak during Kargil war: Brigadier

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 01 Oct 2013 14:20

Shouldn't this be taken to international courts? We let direct attacks and even terrorism from countries like China and Pakis go unpunished and force no sanctions on these warmongrels under various excuses and that allows these nations to build up arms and spread terrorism even more.

When Indian diplomats talk of terror from across the border to the President of US that would only make a response from US as per its own policies.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 01 Oct 2013 21:13

^^ I am not sure why Surinder Singh or his statements are given so much currency here.

He did not carry out regular patrolling of areas under his command. When reports came of infiltration, he downplayed them saying 10-15 terrorists. His superiors were equally complacent. Only warnings they gave were generic in nature.

IAF attack choppers (Mi-35) could not operate at those heights, which is why they were never deployed. LCH (if successfully developed) will be the only attack helicopter in the world capable of operating at those heights.

Even US Apache struggled in Afghanistan during Operation Anaconda.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 01 Oct 2013 21:27

Preceding World War 2, the German Army built a false myth that the German political leadership surrendered in WW1, the Army was capable of fighting & was winning. The truth was the German Army had collapsed. The myth of German Invincibility was a major factor in inciting WW2.

Same for Pakistan. The myth that Mushy is propogating that PA was winning, and political leadership sold him, is dangerous. In 1965, Pakistan could not sustain a longer war. In 1971, Pakistan lost huge swathes of territory in the Western Sector, yet some of them still lie that they won the war in the West.

The myth of PA invincibility needs to be quashed as early as possible, since it encourages adventurism. Jokers like Mushy spin defeat into victory.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 25 Feb 2014 20:32

A paper written by a US Army Officer on IA/ IAF Mountain Warfare Tactics and Strategy during Kargil War.
http://www.nps.edu/Academics/Centers/CC ... osta03.pdf
This paper down plays the effect of IAF.

Another paper that presents the opposite picture of IAF contribution and also the gaps in joint planning & operations.
http://carnegieendowment.org/2012/09/20 ... -war/dvc4#

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Feb 2014 23:41

AdityaM wrote:One of the Pakis who killed Lt Saurabh Kalia:

This scumbag should be hunted down as Eichmann was hunted down, instead we had grade A jerk MMS sending toadies to talk to Pak.

What rubbish.

wig · Post by **wig** » 24 Jul 2014 08:55

the story of Pakistan Navy during the kargil war when the Pakistan high command sent a message to all their warships ‘Remain in harbour’ by Admiral(R) Sushil Kumar, the naval chief during the Kargil war

Very little has been spoken or written about what the Indian Navy did during the Kargil conflict of 1999. In fact, it is largely believed and mistakenly so, that the Indian Navy played no role at all. While the Army and Air Force undoubtedly played a stellar role and won the war for us, the Navy, albeit on the sideline, made a silent but significant contribution. And this is a first-hand account of how the Kargil conflict unfolded and what the Navy’s Operation Talwar was all about. I recall the initial phase of how the Kargil conflict began. As the Navy Chief, I was also officiating as the Chairman of the Chiefs of Staff Committee since General Ved Malik, the Army Chief, was abroad on an assignment.

The reports that first came in were quite vague and hazy. They alluded to stray incidents along the Line of Control with Pakistan. There was also a report of an Indian Army patrol that had not returned and of shepherds having seen strangers on our side of the Line of Control (LoC). Despite the uncertain nature of these reports, the Army was understandably concerned and requested for air effort by way of armed reconnaissance. At that stage, Air Chief Marshal Tipnis, the Air Chief, quite rightly advised, that hastily inducting the Indian Air Force may send the wrong signal. With scanty reports available, the situation was confused and seemed to be only a minor border incident in an area that had always been regarded as no-man’s land.

More than a border incident

By the time General Malik returned from his trip abroad, it became clear that the incursion on the Himalayan border in the Kargil sector was not just a mere border incident. Not only was the extent of the Pakistani intrusion very vast but it also appeared that something sinister was afoot. The manner in which the intruders had entrenched themselves on our side of the LoC, in well-prepared concrete bunkers at strategically commanding locations, clearly showed that this was a well-planned manoeuvre that had been executed over a carefully calculated time frame. There was no doubt that Pakistani treachery had caught us by surprise. Promptly, the Indian Government swung into action and gave the Indian Armed Forces a clear-cut directive: Evict the intruders. But do not cross the LoC was the Prime Minister’s diktat which proved to be a diplomatic masterstroke. This was the start up for Operation Vijay. For Navymen like me who had been around during the India-Pakistan war of 1965, the lasting memory had always been of the mischief carried out by the Pakistan Navy at sea. When all attention had been on the land war, a couple of Pakistan Navy destroyers had sneaked in one night and lobbed a few shells onto a deserted beach on the Gujarat coast. Ever since then, the Pakistan Navy has celebrated that event as “Pakistan Navy Day.”

By early June 1999, as our Army and Air Force were preparing for action on the LoC, task forces of the Indian Navy’s Western Fleet had already been deployed to their battle stations — to seize the initiative at sea. With the situation getting tense, it was at an important war council briefing that the Prime Minister reiterated his Directive of not crossing the LoC.

Operational constraint

For the Army and Air Force this was surely an operational constraint but not so for the Navy, as we always operate in international waters anyway. Moreover, coercive diplomacy has always been the Navy’s forte and the tactic of exerting pressure from over the horizon has always been a well- tested strategy referred to as gunboat diplomacy from Nelsonian times.

We realised that the Indian Navy’s forward deployment had certainly had the desired effect when we learnt that Pakistan had frantically started escorting its oil tankers at sea, for this indeed was their lifeline for survival.

By the middle of June, the Army and Air Force had scaled up their operations. With tension mounting, the situation looked as though it would escalate beyond a border conflict. At this time the Navy’s Operational Commanders re-appreciated the situation and decided to prepare for hostilities. The Navy’s Eastern Fleet from the Bay of Bengal was rapidly mobilised and deployed in strength to the Arabian Sea.

And so as the operations on the Himalayan heights at Tololing and Tiger Hill reached a crescendo, the Indian Navy remained poised with both fleets in full readiness. As we approached what seemed like the precautionary stage for war, operation orders for combat were issued with the rules of engagement clearly defined for commanders at sea. This was a very important threshold for us. The codename assigned was Operation Talwar.

The silent force

By the middle of June, the Army and Air Force had scaled up operations. The situation looked as though it would escalate beyond a border conflict. The Navy’s Operational Commanders re-appreciated the situation and decided to prepare for hostilities .

The Navy’s Eastern Fleet from the Bay of Bengal was rapidly mobilised and deployed in strength to the Arabian Sea .

As the operations on the Himalayan heights at Tololing and Tiger Hill reached a crescendo, the Indian Navy remained poised with both fleets in full readiness.

As we approached the precautionary stage for war, operation orders for combat were issued with the rules of engagement clearly defined for commanders.

We knew Pakistan Navy was on the defensive when we monitored a special message from the Pakistan Navy high command to all their warships ‘Remain in harbour’

Threat of nuclear retaliation

It was around this time that Pakistani generals started resorting to threats of nuclear retaliation. Much of it was rhetoric but it could not be dismissed altogether, as we were obviously dealing with a desperate foe whose misadventure had been exposed, through recovered Pakistani documents and captured prisoners of war. By the end of June 1999, full-scale hostilities seemed imminent. At a crucial tri-Service briefing, the Army Chief General Ved Malik issued an advisory for the Indian Armed Forces — you better prepare for war, be it declared or otherwise. We in the Navy were fully armed and ready for battle.

Here I must add that while our task forces were well poised; we had our fingers crossed. Our warships were vulnerable with no Anti-Missile Defence (AMD) against the Pakistan Navy’s deadly Harpoon Exocet sea-skimming missiles. It was a serious vulnerability but the Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Western Naval Command, Vice Admiral Madhavendra Singh, and I had taken stock of the situation. There is always the fog of war and the adversary may not be entirely aware of the opponent’s strengths and weaknesses. Moreover, we had deployed in preponderant strength and our strike forces were aggressively poised. It certainly had the desired effect. We knew that the Pakistan Navy had gone on the defensive when we monitored a special message from the Pakistan Navy high command to all their warships ‘Remain in harbour’.

Seizing the initiative at sea

The signal from the Pakistani Naval (PN) Headquarters said it all and that day, at the briefing for the Chiefs of Staff Committee, I informed my colleagues that the Indian Navy had achieved what it had set out to do. We had seized the initiative at sea. Tri-Service cooperation had many facets during the Kargil operations and the Navy was able to chip in where needed. The Navy’s squadron of specially equipped electronic warfare aircraft operated extensively along the Line of Control in support of land operations. Specialist hydrographic survey teams of the Indian Navy were conjoined with the army’s artillery batteries to pin-point gun locations. But all this is trivia compared to the overall canvas of tri-service understanding and cooperation that Kargil 1999 portrayed. Many too are the lessons that the Kargil conflict has brought forth. Most important of all being that the Indian Armed Forces have the natural ability and resilience to face adversity when the chips are down. Kargil had caught us by surprise, yet motivated by the Government, the Armed Forces turned the tables onto the Pakistani intruders.

Force-multiplying effect

What Kargil also demonstrated was that when the Service Chiefs are in sync everything falls into place with a force-multiplying effect. General Malik, Air Chief Marshal Tipnis and I had trained together initially at the National Defence Academy as young cadets while still in our teens. In later years we served together on various operational and staff assignments and we also had the opportunity to serve concurrently as Vice Chiefs of our respective service.

When Kargil erupted we finally came together as the three Service Chiefs of the Indian Armed Forces. All this certainly mattered and was in sharp contrast to what happened on the other side of the border.

Undoubtedly, students of military history will remember Kargil as an operation conducted on the snowy Himalayan heights where the Indian Army and the IAF brought glory to the country. The role that the Indian Navy played during Kargil may yet remain lost as a footnote. But that is the way navies operate anyway; over the horizon and unseen. Perhaps, that is the reason why the Navy has always been known worldwide, as the silent service.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20140724/edit.htm#7

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 24 Jul 2014 13:40

^^pakis are full of bull. Dont fall for that BS.