India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 18 Dec 2013 22:13

Altair wrote:CIA protocols are very specific and the priority order for constraints is also very clear. Mission comes first. Clearly there is an ongoing operation and hence the clockwork precision in execution. This is not just a case of standard intel gathering exercise. The ruthlessness in execution is hinting muscle power on standby incase things dont go as planned. There is a clear mission objective.

Actually the use of muscle power by Bharara is a sign that things have already gone belly-up. An op has been botched, and now there's a pre-emptive move by the Americans to rewrite the context before the story comes out.

Anyone watches "Homeland" here? This season, did you wonder who the real-life "Majid Javadi" of India may be?

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 18 Dec 2013 22:15

Rudradev wrote: Anyone watches "Homeland" here? This season, did you wonder who the real-life "Majid Javadi" of India may be?

India has dozens of Majid Javadi's. Ahmed Patel comes to my mind. ??

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 18 Dec 2013 22:19

Rudradev wrote: Anyone watches "Homeland" here? This season, did you wonder who the real-life "Majid Javadi" of India may be?

If he exists, he could be the same person Jaswant Singh talked about in his book.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 18 Dec 2013 22:19

The tip off of the maid being a problem was from the diplomat hence the vendetta, counter intel folks sleeping/lapse on the possible flight of maid and family is a different problem, the Americans may have been waiting for an opportunity to whisk them away and succeeded thus timing this public episode.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Dec 2013 22:25

Ramana,
I Can be a bit dense at time. This must be one of those days. I am majorly pissed off at the yanks. One Indian was raped as per the law of the land. The entire Us govt structure from the president to the actual US martial who performed the physical assault ought to be charged with rape.

I mean the whole chain of command. Any one who justifies it also out to be charged with abetment of rape.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 18 Dec 2013 22:25

Prasad wrote:Question: is the residence of the dcg sovereign territory of india? If so how does min wage law apply?

Very pertinent, but does that apply to only embassy premises, not consulates and by extension to consular staff's residences?

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 18 Dec 2013 22:25

Since its not a simple case of "maid wanted to immigrate by hook or by crook" anymore. The maid's husband was given T-Visa, which means he is going to claim that the maid was illegally trafficked by DK into the US and then claim asylum.

Here are some possibilities (which were CTs earlier due to EJ-CIA angle):

1) Maid was a mole or associated to a mole
AND:
2) CIA mole cover was blown for some reason and they all needed to escape. DK was a scapegoat.
OR:
3) DK's work pissed off someone in FoggyBottom/CIA and this was their way of getting back.
Note that DK cannot (and probably will not) be allowed to return safely to India (due to submission of her passport). Why?

EDIT: after some more thought on (3) above added (4) as a wildcard CT below (too difficult to ignore, i know some gora amrus can be totally ape$hit crazy sometimes):

(4) There is an EJ somewhere in FoggyBottom (State Dept) who wants to complete his White-Man's-Burden-duty (WMBD

), he was fed stories by some self-flagellating Indians on how Indians are being trafficked illegally into the US and how "slavery" is still an issue in India. WMBD dude finds that the Indian Embassy itself has something of an arrangement with the US state dept to pay their Indian maids below min. wage and decides to make an "example" out of the brown-savages and thereby civilize them. It might be done as a warning to Infy and other "body shoppers" who steal gora amru jobs by trafficking Indian Engineers to the US.

a_bharat · Post by **a_bharat** » 18 Dec 2013 22:39

Given that a court case was filed against the maid's husband and that he was taken into custody a few months back, one would have to assume that MEA did have suspicions on Richards' family. They must have found out connected moles. But still the maid's husband was allowed to escape to US of A'holes. Why? How? Some influential person must have been involved. With the kind of people running the Govt., one cannot but suspect that people in top positions in GOI are compromised.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 18 Dec 2013 22:41

Rahul M wrote:p.s. I am still waiting for the rejoinder you promised.

Sire, no rejoinder - simply some observations which might turn out to be stale as most of them might have been already said by other posters.

I am in complete agreement that Dr. Khobragade should not have been treated in such a crass manner - she is not like one of those B1 visitors. So let us put that behind us and move on.

My question is more to do with the contrasting reactions from GoI in case of Dr. Khobragade and breach of protocol when a Bharat Ratna winning President (Sri APJ), a Defense Minister (Sri Fernandes), and an Amby (Smt. Shankar) were subjected to strip searches. Why no such outrage at that time? "It is water under the bridge" is a good enough reason for me if you say so and believe in it. I do not have a horse in the race not much more to say. Now the lines are drawn, it will be of passing interest as to what the fallout is going to be for each side.

Oh by the way, I agree about my being out of the loop. Who knows who is loved/hated more - politicians or beurocrats. But the former is elected after all - at least they are more popular - loved or not.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 18 Dec 2013 22:44

matrimc ji, yes it's water under the bridge. right now is not the time to bring up anything which leaks energy from the focus of the current issue. you are bringing up a good point. but please go to OT and do it. because right now this issue deserves focus. not just because of what was done to the diplomat. but also because this seems to be a case of espionage and preemptive action against the diplomat, going to barbaric lengths to paint her in a bad picture.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 18 Dec 2013 22:48

there is an important question no one has asked yet.

was Devyani Khobargade being paid an Indian salary by the GoI? I mean was she getting the equivalent of what a US diplomat gets paid?!?!

the US system wants the maid to get minimum wage. Okay, in that case, Devyani, working in US right now, also should be getting the US-equivalent wages right?

what the US SD so conveniently forgets is that these are Indian people and they are expected to go back to India after the end of their rotation here. The maid to is an Indian lady and was only posted their temporarily. when that's the case, there is no expectation of paying an American-equivalent wage. they are given other perks to compensate the cost of living. like free schooling for kids, etc. but these don't figure in the basic pay of the diplomat. there is no reason why the maid's case would be any different. her basic wage should have no expectation of American equivalence.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Dec 2013 22:50

Devesh+ for the focus on the issue at hand and not on swirl.

a_bharat, Most likely some high up in GOI facilitated the travel of the Richards' family to avoid a "diplomatic" incident just as Brjaesh Mishra allowed Rabinder Singh to leave India. Unfortunately the high up wont be revealed till later and meantime the US did not reciporcate but rubbed salt.

Most likely its SSMji.
Lets see more will come out as babus are really mad at this outrage.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 18 Dec 2013 22:50

Lokesh ji, not necessarily DK's work. Since this whole thread is in free-flowing CT mode: I suggest that it could be her dad's work that has somehow irked Washington. Uttam Khobragade has been an IAS officer since 1984. His "official" appointments have included, from most recent to least recent:

1) Principal Secy, Tribal Development Dept. (2010-present. What are the odds of his having run up against American EJ orgs operating in Tribal regions?)
2) Gen Mgr, BEST (Mumbai Electrical Supply and Transport)
3) Mng Dir, MH State Road Transport Corpn
4) VP, MH Housing & Area Development Authority
5) Commissioner, Food & Drug Administration
6) Collector/DM, Greater Mumbai
7) Mng Dir, MAFCO Ltd

Jt. Secy, Revenue and Forest Dept.

At least in terms of #1, and possibly #5, it is easy to imagine how Mr. Khobragade might have run afoul of US interests.

Of course, there is always the possibility that his actual job has nothing to do with his publicly listed postings... and that he might have annoyed, alarmed or threatened the US in discharging those actual duties.

As Lokesh ji observes, Khobragade's daughter will not be allowed to return to India due to confiscation of her passport by US authorities. Now wouldn't that be a classic way to pressure an opponent whose investigations were getting too close for comfort... by holding his daughter hostage (after having shown, through strip-searches and other public humiliation, how far they are willing to violate her?)

Looked at from this perspective: Maid and her family may just have been patsies (arranged by the CIA through EJ proxies) to provide a pretext for them to grab Devayani.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 18 Dec 2013 22:54

there was a segment on npr about the issue. the moron FT reporter in India (Amy Kazmin) thinks that India is "overreacting" because of the association of "woman's dignity" with family honor. specifically, she thinks this whole reaction is due to "woman's body" being associated with family honor.

I think it's time Indian Police finds the blondest, most blue-eyed American consular official and give her similar treatment: strip searches, cavity probes, the whole shebang, as they say in American parlance.

perhaps then, depending on how US media and public reacts, we can discuss a few things about US public psyche about how the honor and dignity of a blond white woman's body is so intimately tied up with US pride and national honor.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 18 Dec 2013 22:55

ramana ji, thanks. I think focus is important right now.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 18 Dec 2013 23:02

Rudradevji,

It could very well be. I was reading somewhere that a son of a prominent diplomat was denied F-1 student visa initially and the diplomat was asked through back channels to be a mole.

CIA lives by this rule: If there is a gap in intelligence or vulnerability in the power structure of any foreign country, it WILL be explored and possibly exploited, whether there is any use for it or not.

Looked at it from that light, the entire Indian establishment has to be completely penetrated by now.

Ex: After his arrest for whatever reason, how could Phillip Richard (husband) be allowed to fly out of India on an Indian passport with a T-Visa to testify against an Indian Diplomat (i.e. against the Indian state). That is a self-goal of astronomical proportions.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Dec 2013 23:05

I think as first step India should complain to UN Human Rights commission etc that US procedures of cavity serach of accused persons is tantamount to rape and is a repugnant practice and should be condemned..

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 18 Dec 2013 23:16

Well well well, things get curiouser. In-laws work at US embassy, husband and kids flown out. Prima facie, this is an intel operation that back fired on somebody.

That answers my question on why Mr Bharara is getting exercised about an underpaid maid at an Indian mission when there are any number of victims in American households in need of a charging knight.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Dec 2013 23:17

And folks were wondering about him!

Madhusudhan · Post by **Madhusudhan** » 18 Dec 2013 23:20

Would be awesome if one of the Gurus here can draw a relationship map with the maid, the husband, their employers, etc.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 18 Dec 2013 23:22

Maybe the maid was the real tool and Devyani exposed her. That might explain the impending arrest warrants for the family in India as well. The Indian government knew and was probably taking action. All this was a distraction which may have backfired

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Dec 2013 23:25

Jarita, I think the family's arrest was mispercived as exposure of an operation gone wrong. Hence the cognitive dissonance in GOI. If GOI felt it was an espionage case they too would have taken extreme measures.
Its the old knife to a gun fight story.

Manish Jain · Post by **Manish Jain** » 18 Dec 2013 23:28

*EDIT*

Ok deleted, US ill-treating Indian diplomat is worthy of all kind of reprisals and retaliatory measures.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 18 Dec 2013 23:28

Just a tidbit, the red herring in the book on 26/11 mentioning a mole inside Indian agencies in effect trying to get them busy was a hint that counter intel was making things difficult for the Americans

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 18 Dec 2013 23:29

This tweet from RM is a keeper

Rajiv Malhotra ‏@RajivMessage 4h
@ajaatshatruu @vasudevan49 Agreed. I tried to educate Indians that US liking their individual success is not same as respect for Indianness

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 18 Dec 2013 23:29

Manishji,

That is an internal issue. It is OT, and also a massive self goal

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 18 Dec 2013 23:31

Victor wrote:When diplomats are forced to find their own help, they are open to all kinds of problems.

This is very important. Having vetted personnel employed by MEA in EA dept. is (a small quantum of) monies well spent.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 18 Dec 2013 23:32

Manish Jain wrote:Well, all the CTs aside, Devyani is certainly one of the privileged ones. The assets own by her -

A certain Adarsh society is notable.

we are morons of the first order. we deserve what we get.

edit: deleted the link.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Dec 2013 23:36

The Indian press and world media are claiming that India took retaliatory steps and are tomtomming it all over with BBC being the town crier.

So what exactly did India take as retaliatory measures?
- revoked liqour import permits for US officials. Are they boozers or drunks that this is effective action?
- removed unneccessary extra baricades on Delhi streets. Weren't the barricades a traffic jam contributors? Besides Delhi is not Islambad or Kabul or Benghazi. More effective would be to rename the street and add an 'A' to the present name.
- Asked for salary details of Indian employees at US embassy. Shouldn't they be doing that any way to pay taxes?
- Revoked parking permits etc. to make the privilaged folks same as aam admi. Especially after Aam Admi Party(Fordiwal party) won so big in Delhi elections!

So please help me understand how the GOI actions were a retaliatory measure when time and again Indian diplomats are subjected to extreme humiliation on demand in the US(THis very thread chronicles the saga).

The US behavior towards Indian diplomats is just one step above the TSP behavior towards Indian diplomats. And in present case is rape of female diplomat which the TSP has not done yet.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Dec 2013 23:37

Manish Jain that is not germane to this thread. Suggest you delete it. For If I have to clean will have to warn you.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 18 Dec 2013 23:37

Devayani may be a corrupt slimebag but she's OUR corrupt slimebag. If she has indulged in any wrongdoing she must be investigated and cleared or sentenced by Indian courts. Even if she is worse than Kanimozhi and Kalmadi combined, it is still incumbent on EVERY Indian to protest her unjustifiable detention and custodial rape by a foreign government.

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 18 Dec 2013 23:40

Are the in-laws of the maid still in bharat-bhumi? If so, can't our sarkar-bahadur "take care" of them as a small payback?

Frederic · Post by **Frederic** » 18 Dec 2013 23:41

Rudradev wrote:
As Lokesh ji observes, Khobragade's daughter will not be allowed to return to India due to confiscation of her passport by US authorities. Now wouldn't that be a classic way to pressure an opponent whose investigations were getting too close for comfort... by holding his daughter hostage (after having shown, through strip-searches and other public humiliation, how far they are willing to violate her?)

It is important to arrest at least a couple of massan staffers. The time is right now. Otherwise we have zero bargaining power. We can keep removing the traffic barriers til kingdom come but as long as DK's passport is in massan hands, her hasslefree return to desh can and will be used as a pressure point.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Dec 2013 23:42

Rudradev wrote:Devayani may be a corrupt slimebag but she's OUR corrupt slimebag. If she has indulged in any wrongdoing she must be investigated and cleared or sentenced by Indian courts. Even if she is worse than Kanimozhi and Kalmadi combined, it is still incumbent on EVERY Indian to protest her unjustifiable detention and custodial rape by a foreign government.

Please read Manish Jain's pdf. The property was either inherited or bought by her after selling other properties and her explanation was acceptable to Govt of India.
I don't want her slandered for no reason. That would be extra humiliation after her ordeal.

I am slowly coming to think Mayawati could be right.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 18 Dec 2013 23:49

Dr. Khobragade's assets seem to be not all that much out of proportion. Very many working couples in India of similar service length have similarly valued assets.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 18 Dec 2013 23:50

ToI is reporting Kerry apologized to NSA. Everything is back to normal. Nothing to see here move on ...

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 18 Dec 2013 23:52

Rudradev wrote:Devayani may be a corrupt slimebag but she's OUR corrupt slimebag. If she has indulged in any wrongdoing she must be investigated and cleared or sentenced by Indian courts. Even if she is worse than Kanimozhi and Kalmadi combined, it is still incumbent on EVERY Indian to protest her unjustifiable detention and custodial rape by a foreign government.

Rudradev, please see my above post - she has what a total of 1.5 crores of assets. If somebody working in IAS/IFS cannot accumulate even such a modest wealth after years of service, who would be willing to serve in the cadre? She might have got some assets from her dad during marriage also.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 18 Dec 2013 23:55

sivab wrote:ToI is reporting Kerry apologized to NSA. Everything is back to normal. Nothing to see here move on ...

Why NSA of all people and not MEA?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 18 Dec 2013 23:59

If so, can't our sarkar-bahadur "take care" of them as a small payback?

Egad, this is India not Pakistan.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 19 Dec 2013 00:00

matrimc wrote:
Rudradev wrote:Devayani may be a corrupt slimebag but she's OUR corrupt slimebag. If she has indulged in any wrongdoing she must be investigated and cleared or sentenced by Indian courts. Even if she is worse than Kanimozhi and Kalmadi combined, it is still incumbent on EVERY Indian to protest her unjustifiable detention and custodial rape by a foreign government.
Rudradev, please see my above post - she has what a total of 1.5 crores of assets. If somebody working in IAS/IFS cannot accumulate even such a modest wealth after years of service, who would be willing to serve in the cadre? She might have got some assets from her dad during marriage also.

I'm not saying she's corrupt. I'm saying that even if she WERE corrupt, as many MUTUs have alleged in the ongoing smear campaign... that is a matter for Indian justice. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the US's mistreatment of her. Whether she has a flat in Adarsh Society or not, and however she came by it, has no bearing on what is happening to her now. That whole line of reasoning, cross-examining the victim to establish character deficits, is utterly reprehensible.

That apart, since you raise the issue-- I'm sure the declared assets of any corrupt official would look perfectly modest on paper. My point is that any such discussion is totally irrelevant to the situation.