India-US Strategic News and Discussion

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UlanBatori
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by UlanBatori »

So does the bail money get forfeited or returned? Why it is required for the defendant to be present for the case? Note that Italy just tried (and convicted and sentenced) one American for murder and 23 for State-Sponsored Kidnapping, and none were present in court. The other murder defendant was present, but tried to escape Italy before the verdict/sentence, but was caught at the border. One of the 23 kidnapping convicts was found and arrested in Panama per demand from Italy, but before he could be extradited, he was "evacuated" by Paco's friends.

IN FACT, the tubelight just went on :idea: , and explains the WHY of the arrest and following pleasantries. It is precisely to frighten the victim into NOT APPEARING in court. Then the likely outcome is "no contest" (nolo contendre per my fine legal training from listening to my Dutch friend who was caught for DUI many saal pehle) leading to a verdict in favor of the muggers, and a very large, disproportionate monetary award (like $1M for the earlier Indian Consulate maid). This completes the modus operandi of the State-Sponsored Mugging.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 02 Feb 2014 03:06, edited 1 time in total.
Shreeman
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Shreeman »

UlanBatori wrote:So does the bail money get forfeited or returned? Why it is required for the defendant to be present for the case? Note that Italy just tried (and convicted and sentenced) one American for murder and 23 for State-Sponsored Kidnapping, and none were present in court. The other murder defendant was present, but tried to escape Italy before the verdict/sentence, but was caught at the border. One of the 23 kidnapping convicts was found and arrested in Panama per demand from Italy, but before he could be extradited, he was "evacuated" by Paco's friends.
IANAL. The terms appear to have been modified to hold on to the money. It is not a big deal. Cant compare different systems. This process is not setup to stop at this point, except in the rarest of cases where major goof-up (bigger than this) is self-evident. This is not that incompetent. Burden remains on defense at all times. IANAL.

Presence - no extradition teeaty. Extradition is altogether different matter, no court will insist on presence given the circumstances.

ps - stay in school, kids is said for good reason so frequently to US kids. innocent until xxx = bail. not much else.
Last edited by Shreeman on 02 Feb 2014 03:12, edited 1 time in total.
TSJones
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by TSJones »

Raja Bose wrote:
TSJones wrote: He probably has more than a few servants here in the US.
Is that a crime in the USA? Do the Cracker Barrel preferred customers feel its a crime?
Actually, we here at the Cracker Barrel want to visit the Taj Mahal, ride an elephant and see a tiger. If we can get airconditioned hotel rooms. We'll also want plenty of ice and potable water to drink. And flush toilets.
Shreeman
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Shreeman »

TSJones wrote:
Raja Bose wrote: He probably has more than a few servants here in the US.
Is that a crime in the USA? Do the Cracker Barrel preferred customers feel its a crime?

Actually, we here at the Cracker Barrel want to visit the Taj Mahal, ride an elephant and see a tiger. If we can get airconditioned hotel rooms.
What is with the adversarial tones and taunting going on here on both sides? Cant we get along a little better? Difficult subjects arise even between siblings. It feels like there are 5-year olds arguing. And where there should be 5-year olds arguing, there are attempts at asking serious questions! The playground is marked very well, let us smoke in the smoking section.

Nobody here should have bern personally involved in the present prominent matters. If they are, then they should get off the web and stop wasting my tax dollars or I am telling on you!
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by TSJones »

OK, I will stop posting on this thread. Thanks.
sanjaykumar
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

Yes Americans can out-consume and out-kill anyone else out there. Indians can take out a seaboard between samosas. Let's move on.
Shreeman
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Shreeman »

TSJones wrote:OK, I will stop posting on this thread. Thanks.
TSJ: I personally want you to keep posting, just not those short sentences. The same applies for Raja Bose.

I can also stop reading, may be a few have.
Amber G.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

Pointing out the obvious...
Prof. Amar Bhide wrote:If our drug laws were fully enforced, for example, the current president and his two predecessors would be convicted felons.
I wonder what Prof. Bhide means by this. Does he mean that they should not have been allowed to become presidents or that some people are above the law and lowly attorney cannot and should not apply the law to these elites (two of them themselves are lawyers educated at elite universities of the country and one of them is able to parse the English language better then the English).
I take it that the prof. says, a prosecutor has to apply some discretion (as prosecutor are duty bound to do).. with finite resources you spend effort to prosecute Time Square Bomber rather than something trivial or not that serious.
Prof. Amar Bhide wrote:he booked an obscure Indian diplomat
That pot shot at the diplomat makes it clear that he thinks some people ...
As UB already pointed out, and search of brf pages will show, first mention of DK as a diplomat in BRF was after the arrest.
Vayutuvan
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

Posting without comments (from comments section of the link posted by AmberG ji).
Prof. Amar Bhide wrote:And just for the record: while I am a professor at a school of Law and Diplomacy, Im not a lawyer and I look at things mainly through the lens of business and economics
Vayutuvan
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

TSJones wrote:Actually, we here at the Cracker Barrel want to visit the Taj Mahal, ride an elephant and see a tiger.
Where are snake charmers. We want our snake charmers and charming cobras :twisted:
Vayutuvan
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

Amber G. wrote: As UB already pointed out, and search of brf pages will show, first mention of DK as a diplomat in BRF was after the arrest.
OK. Let us move on.
ArmenT
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by ArmenT »

UlanBatori wrote:I cannot blame PB for (yet) failing to nail other top entities. It is just not easy to get evidence that will stand up all the way to the Supreme Courts, which is a given if he gets any conviction at all. Remember that the guy who trapped Al Capone, did so on tax evasion because there were signed forms submitted (or not submitted).
Quoted for truth. It isn't easy to get hard evidence against some of these wall street types. Of all the crimes that Al Capone committed, the only charge they could pin on him was tax evasion. No murder charges, no extortion charges, nothing of that sort, because the man operated in such a manner that he had plausible deniability for everything else.

Incidentally, he was very careful about his illegal earnings as well, allegedly only endorsing one check (he was trying to cash the proceeds of a gambling racket that he ran) in his entire lifetime. He was mostly a cash guy and didn't even have a bank account in his name. The only way the Feds managed to get him was because of that one check and by persuading a couple of people to testify against him. The judge sentenced him to the max. sentence for tax evasion (10 years) because they knew that he was responsible for other crimes, but could not actually prove anything else.

Some wall street financial criminals make Capone look like an amateur when it comes to plausible deniability.
arshyam
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by arshyam »

UlanBatori wrote:
except that it is restricted to citizens (maybe that's why it is not slavery?)
Not sure I understand what you meant. The au pairs themselves are not US citizens, they are European women imported into servitude. The "hosts" are typically US families, and there is an equivalent system in UK. I think these systems were started after the system of importing "au pairs" from West Africa was sort-of stopped in UK, and maybe after 1865 in the US.
Sir, I meant the hosts being US citizens in case of au pairs, are not called exploiters or slave drivers, or whatever labels DK was smeared with. Corrected my post above.
UlanBatori wrote:Interesting language:
UPTO $500 towards education?
Oh! An UPPER limit?
What "education" can what one buy for $500 in the US for a teenaged Oiropean woman?
Nothing, as a practical matter. Probably a food safety course in the local community college? :lol: I suppose the au pair has spend money out of her 200 stipend to actually meet the college fee.
UlanBatori wrote:If the au pair Resources site (I linked above) describes them as a low-cost alternative for childcare, definitely that means they are paid less than US citizen childcare workers.
Absolutely. The WSJ article I linked said that a US child care worker typically is 2-3 times more expensive than au pair, and another related WSJ article said that the author saved $2000 a month by shifting to the au pair program.
UlanBatori
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by UlanBatori »

Getting warmer. Perhaps Kerry, Zeya, Clinton (All*a save the kid! Slick Willie is in the house..) and PB all **use** au pairs, so they don't consider those to be subject to minimum wage laws. .. Anmol!!! chehra-kitab/ teetar brejentz?
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by shiv »

TSJones wrote: He probably has more than a few servants here in the US.
Oh absolutely. Can't manage without servants - but why is Uncle Tom Bharara and the US diplomatic community not going after him? Maybe they're scared of quid pro quo in this diplomatic immunity business? American diplomats can't smuggle cold beefburgers and Chinese pearls for illegal sale in American embassies if the US gets too serious.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

UlanBatori wrote:IN FACT, the tubelight just went on , and explains the WHY of the arrest and following pleasantries. It is precisely to frighten the victim into NOT APPEARING in court. Then the likely outcome is "no contest" (nolo contendre per my fine legal training from listening to my Dutch friend who was caught for DUI many saal pehle) leading to a verdict in favor of the muggers, and a very large, disproportionate monetary award (like $1M for the earlier Indian Consulate maid). This completes the modus operandi of the State-Sponsored Mugging.
+1, Video conferencing is always a practical option

anyways, in the news

Tit-for-tat rule for diplomat access to airport lounges
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by shiv »

Khobragade could well be tried and convicted in the US. In that sens she may be just a pawn in a larger game which hopefully will knock some sense into the slave mentality of Indians in general. As the case of Shri David Headley and Shri Raymond Davis showed the US will protects and hold its assets even if they are criminals in other nations. India too needs to be willing to hold on the people who are criminals in the US but not criminals in India.

For middle class Indians in India acting fair, but against the US does not come naturally. It causes needless (and sometimes justified) anxieties and fears. Many perfectly competent colleagues of mine were deeply upset that they were not able to study abroad as I had done when I returned to India. They could not understand why I returned to India. They have all sent their children abroad to study at great cost to themselves. The "foreign" tag is important to the elite and middle class Indian as a badge of honor and that foreign tag is best if it is America and lesser if it is any other country although the UK still holds upper caste status in the community of premier nations of the Indian middle class mind. The Indian industrialist or businessman, or doctor or diplomat is always hoping to get favors that would grant his son or daughter an easy US visa or a concession in fees, or some sort of job while studying.

Indians who go to the US to study are mostly from the same elite class of Indians who keep servants in a way America pretends to disapprove of when they want to pretend to be just. America is wealthy enough to employ well paid slaves. This class of Indian have the means to buy tickets or pay fees (or qualify for loans for fees). The US has a grip on the pockets and minds of such wealthy middle class Indians. In a flash the US can either cancel a visa or award financial help or waivers.

That is why I believe it is important for Indians to know the facts - even if they are boring statistics. 99% of Indian graduates remain in India. 99% of Indians remain in India. 90% of Indians cannot afford a ticket to America. America only helps the elite because they have what the US needs (skills/education) and are slobbering over the US visa for most part and can afford the basic requirements to get to th US . Most Indians are willing to put up with much inconvenience and some indignity while trying to get that US visa - making US consular officials, especially the kaalu Indian Uncle Tom consulate employees extremely cocky. Indians are willing to absorb indignity and ill treatment because that gets hidden by the glow of displaying that they are held in favor by the great white man or that they can go where few other Indians go - qualifying them for an exalted status. Few Indians do anything to change the Indian mindset because every Indian feels honoured by rubbing shoulders with white man and receives respect and adulation from other lesser Indians. For the Indian, going to the US or sending a son there is itself a qualification and a signal that he is a success in India. The US and most European nations realize this and use it to their advantage as and when necessary.
UlanBatori
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by UlanBatori »

Precedent for extortion scams by bureaucrats:
1. Virginia Bureaucrats Look to Extort Yoga Instructors
saip
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by saip »

shiv wrote:
TSJones wrote: He probably has more than a few servants here in the US.
Oh absolutely. Can't manage without servants - but why is Uncle Tom Bharara and the US diplomatic community not going after him? Maybe they're scared of quid pro quo in this diplomatic immunity business? American diplomats can't smuggle cold beefburgers and Chinese pearls for illegal sale in American embassies if the US gets too serious.
I am not allowed to bring mangoes into the USA. Why should these US diplomats allowed to bring beef burgers into India?
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Shreeman »

this is not a terrible description of the process:

http://www.victimsofcrime.org/help-for- ... em#process

and this is the last event prior to the sivab production:

http://newsindiatimes.com/indian-diplom ... -immunity/

then Arshack requested a quashng of the charges. Someone at SD wrote a note indicating they dont want that. Monday you get a ruling. Likely that state prevails.

So you are left with pre-arraignment. While the attorney may oppose dismissal, it will be several months (may be longer) before any actual adjudication steps are even visible. A timeline may be in earlier filing if not sealed. But given the attirney's office does not appear to have requested a new date, I cant see any yet. It is unclear if they will push for arraignment yet.

Anyone have a better idea of where things stand?
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by TKiran »

The burden of proof is on PB to show that DK personally and willfully lied to VO on DS160.

When I submitted DS160 to VO, I signed on a declaration that nobody assisted me on the preparation of the form, and I personally am responsible for any false information. Hope that is the same format submitted by SR to VO. In that case, DK's lawyer should submit that though the DS160 was submitted from DK's computer, DK does not have any responsibility for the correctness of the form and SR is the person who lied to VO. Also burden of proof is on PB to show that DK was not working for UN at the time of her arrest, as whatever the burden ofproof was on DK was already submitted to the xourt as the UN identity card, which was reluctantly accepted by PB as a genuine one but doubtful only if she was actually working for UN. We can argue that asDK was getting distracted with additional responsibility as DCG, GoI decided to transfer her to UN permanent mission as her role in UN has been very satisfactory, anyways PB doesnt have any business to comment on what GoI Foreig. Office should do to its employee. Also

Also it is none of PB's business to comment on what SR was doing in Consulate of India, if she was cleaning toilets in in CGI or working as Nanny. She is an employee of GoI and not a personal employee of DK. Period.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

matrimc wrote:
That is premised on DCG was under the cloak of diplomatic immunity. Which is India's argument. On the other hand it would be admissible if Attorney PB's contention that she does not enjoy immunity is accepted.

Here is what I think. As long as India/DCG/attorney AshrachArshack are arguing that DCG had immunity, what PB does is completely irrelevant. He has put a the legal process in motion and I doubt he has a chioce other than to push it forward. It is in the power of DoS to resolve the deadlock.

But what has been revealed yesterday (and the Indian Express story you posted) point to DoS thinks that there is no immunity. In that case , DCG DK is wide open for prosecution.
No that is not premised on Diplomatic immunity of DCG. Premises of Consular Offices/Missions/Embassies and Residence of Consular/Diplomats are considered Foreign Land of the respective country and except for emergencies like fire or earthquakes etc or with express permission of the Head of Mission , local authorities can not enter it. Please read relevant provision of VCCR and VCDR. Why do you think DK was arrested on the Street and not in her residence or at the Consulate?

Yes USD thinks that DK had no diplomatic immunity but a contractor can have post-facto with retroactive immunity.PB has put the onus on State Dept if you read his filed statement dated 31.1.2014. It is USD who have advised about immunity status of DK. All along it is USD which is the driving force and PB is only too willing to be their poodle. Of course he has no choice else he could be hauled up in local media which is a bad thing for a politician lawyer having high ambition .

Bharara's filings will be dissected closely and if upheld same arguments would be applied here for them as well.

As long as case is in the Court and they have to rule on immunity first before proceeding further in the case hence it is still wide open. But the ruling on the case will be a precedence to proceed in India against those who does have consular but not diplomatic immunity and of course Family members and HBDAs are open to wide variet of action. Amby Jaishankar hinted at this possibilty in his Q&A session after the first speech.

But , as I said earlier, reciprocity is yet to be done in this case and all actions initiated by Govt are totally unrelated though may seem as a consequence to DK affair. Action on reciprocal basis will be taken if if Congi Govt has any spine. So far I see this issue is driven by MEA and might loose steam at some stage.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by g.sarkar »

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1140202/j ... u3Ud7T0eAk
"US keeps Devyani pot boiling
- Manhattan sounds a jarring note, Moscow cries ‘unfriendly’ gesture
REUTERS AND OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT
New York/New Delhi, Feb. 1: US prosecutors have told a Manhattan court they intend to pursue visa fraud charges against Devyani Khobragade as she no longer enjoys immunity from prosecution, at a time the two nations are trying to stitch together a pact to prevent a repeat of the Indian diplomat’s arrest.
The arguments by the office of Manhattan’s US attorney Preet Bharara in court papers are not surprising. The US state department has consistently maintained that Khobragade violated immigration laws, and denied that it will pressure prosecutors to drop charges against the diplomat — as India has demanded.
But the unambiguous articulation of the Barack Obama administration’s intent to pursue charges against Khobragade has hurt attempts to get India-US ties back on track with a mechanism to prevent any repeat, top government officials have told The Telegraph.
At least 12 other Indian diplomats currently serving in the US have Indian household help, and Delhi wants Washington to assure that no charges against these diplomats — and others in future — will be pursued without adequate prior diplomatic attempts at resolving differences.
“There was absolutely no legal requirement for the US prosecutors to make such a specific statement on their intent to pursue the case right now,” an Indian official said.
“The statements may have little impact for Devyani’s case, but they do have the potential to sour attempts at striking an understanding that what happened should never happen again.”
Reuters reported that Bharara’s deputies Kristy Greenberg and Amanda Kramer have said — in documents filed before a Manhattan federal court yesterday — that Khobragade no longer enjoys diplomatic immunity.
Technically, the prosecutors are correct.
The US had agreed to accord Khobragade full diplomatic immunity after she was moved to India’s United Nations mission in New York following her December arrest. But Khobragade flew out of the US, back to India on January 10 for a position at the ministry of external affairs headquarters — effectively terminating the immunity a position at India’s UN mission brought......"
Gautam
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Shreeman »

TKiran wrote:The burden of proof is on PB to show that DK personally and willfully lied to VO on DS160.

When I submitted DS160 to VO, I signed on a declaration that nobody assisted me on the preparation of the form, and I personally am responsible for any false information. Hope that is the same format submitted by SR to VO. In that case, DK's lawyer should submit that though the DS160 was submitted from DK's computer, DK does not have any responsibility for the correctness of the form and SR is the person who lied to VO. Also burden of proof is on PB to show that DK was not working for UN at the time of her arrest, as whatever the burden ofproof was on DK was already submitted to the xourt as the UN identity card, which was reluctantly accepted by PB as a genuine one but doubtful only if she was actually working for UN. We can argue that asDK was getting distracted with additional responsibility as DCG, GoI decided to transfer her to UN permanent mission as her role in UN has been very satisfactory, anyways PB doesnt have any business to comment on what GoI Foreig. Office should do to its employee. Also

Also it is none of PB's business to comment on what SR was doing in Consulate of India, if she was cleaning toilets in in CGI or working as Nanny. She is an employee of GoI and not a personal employee of DK. Period.
If it gets to a trial, which is where this sort of thing is relevant, then way too much would already have gone wrong, and little hope left of a harmonious resolution -- win or lose. And "slavery" is a simple concept to explain, GoI procedures are not.

IANAL. Monday is not important by itself, even a few more steps along appear generally harmless. There is a minor chance the judge recognizes the contradiction in lack of arraignment and declaration of immunity in immediate previous filings. The greater likelihood is the court accepts that leaving removed any immunity and dates are wide enough to merit declining the dismissal request. No judgement or discussion on any charges themselves is due, and probably wont be made at this stage.

So the process likely proceeds, unclear to me if Monday sets a timeline as well or if that is negotiated later. IANAL.

^^^^^^ chanakya is correct, in my humble view.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

Chaanakya

It is certainly within the realm if possibility that PB would argue that DCGs residence is not out of bounds. If the immunity which flows from the same VCCR is denied by DoS why not this as well? I still say that what PB does is of no consequence as well as whether former DCG is found guilty/not guilty (other than at a personal level for Ms. DK). If the case is not dismissed, it abundantly clear that GOTUS feels that it is not bound by VCCR. The minutiae may be of great interestto lawyers but they are not important with regard to long term strategic relations. Real politik and all that.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

TKiran wrote:The burden of proof is on PB to show that DK personally and willfully lied to VO on DS160.

When I submitted DS160 to VO, I signed on a declaration that nobody assisted me on the preparation of the form, and I personally am responsible for any false information. Hope that is the same format submitted by SR to VO. In that case, DK's lawyer should submit that though the DS160 was submitted from DK's computer, DK does not have any responsibility for the correctness of the form and SR is the person who lied to VO. Also burden of proof is on PB to show that DK was not working for UN at the time of her arrest, as whatever the burden ofproof was on DK was already submitted to the xourt as the UN identity card, which was reluctantly accepted by PB as a genuine one but doubtful only if she was actually working for UN. We can argue that asDK was getting distracted with additional responsibility as DCG, GoI decided to transfer her to UN permanent mission as her role in UN has been very satisfactory, anyways PB doesnt have any business to comment on what GoI Foreig. Office should do to its employee. Also

Also it is none of PB's business to comment on what SR was doing in Consulate of India, if she was cleaning toilets in in CGI or working as Nanny. She is an employee of GoI and not a personal employee of DK. Period.
Burden of Proof is always on the prosecutor and that of rebuttal on the defendant.


DS160 is the same form and it does contain the certification as you described. Once trafficking charge is not made the burden of proof false on SR that she did not lie intentionally to frame DK and to obtain visa fraudulently. Since DK did not file the forms not she appeared before Visa Officer the charge of Visa Fraud would not hold up despite the same computer might have been used.

DK did not work for UN. Dk worked for Indian Mission at UN i.e. for India as Adviser preparatory to the Visit of MMS. Once her name appears on the list and accreditation is given, it is immaterial if she was in the loo all the time and that the date of her appearance at UNHQ. She could very well work from anywhere in NYC or not work for that matter. It is none of US business how our diplomats are taksed and what tasks are given as long as they are not interfering in US internal matters. So that point is uselessly made by PB and I heard that he had gone to the loo of Harvard.

Transfer to UN was of permanent nature as she was beimng given Diplomatic status. If She was transferred to Embassy US could have refused Accreditation citing court case but UN Transfer could not be refused because of agreement between UN and US for agreeing to set up UNHQ there.


The second charge stems from US Minimum wage laws as in NYC. Now from all accounts DK did pay more than minimum wages excluding impermissible items and deducting permissible items. But the question is SR being on Official passport and DCG entitled to have family members and household staff as per VCCR who are not subject to local laws ( notwithstanding that US tries to do so) except in commercial employment outside the Household of the Consular Staff of Diplomats. SR was not working outside but within the DCG household and ought to have been treated as such. It is another matter that she had long cherished desire to settle in US and could have become part of espionage ring operated by US Embassy in India and therefore they , USD, decided to do its bit in framing DK and ex-filtrating SR and her entire family in violation of Indian legal processes.

If the Court case proceeds as US desires and so far has not show any inclination to resolve the dispute the relation would be headed down. Already they have lost goodwill of large number of Indians ( discounting MATA, MUTU and MITIs and ABCDs, PIOs.OCIs. etc) and for what is yet to be known. Someone has mighty pissed off USD that is quite sure. US Diplomats have much to fear in India from its legal processes as of now. UPA/Congis may not be here forever to protect their a$$e$ while on Tour of Duty in India.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by arshyam »

VijayKM wrote:
14,827 murders i.e one every 40 minutes
84,376 rapes i.e one every 7 minutes
3,54,520 robberies i.e one every 90 seconds
760,739 assaults i.e one every 45 seconds
89,75,438 property crimes i.e 17 crimes every second

These are US crime statistics from FBI for 2012 and these do not even include crime stats of other law enforcement agencies/ unreported crimes.
Saar, these are useful stats, could you please share the source link? I couldn't find these numbers on the FBI's crime stats site. In any case, we at BR need to have such ready refs to counter the rape/violence against women narrative that is being built up gratuitously for India.
chaanakya
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

matrimc wrote:Chaanakya

It is certainly within the realm if possibility that PB would argue that DCGs residence is not out of bounds. If the immunity which flows from the same VCCR is denied by DoS why not this as well? I still say that what PB does is of no consequence as well as whether former DCG is found guilty/not guilty (other than at a personal level for Ms. DK). If the case is not dismissed, it abundantly clear that GOTUS feels that it is not bound by VCCR. The minutiae may be of great interestto lawyers but they are not important with regard to long term strategic relations. Real politik and all that.
No that is not the case. If he argues like that he would be laughed at. There is a reason why US did not arrest DK from her home i.e. besides teaching lessons. Even 400 marines can not protect 10X US diplomats in India.

US can not carry on with strategic relations by cutting wires of communications. All the times communications and nitty gritty gets routed through Diplomatic corps and right now they are finding their spine. Strategic relations will become tragic relations.
Vayutuvan
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

We are on the same page - that is exactly right. If the relationship gets downgraded who benefits? Quo bono? That entity or it's agents are the ones who had engineered this whole she-bang.

What I am questioning is that PB is not the key - the powers be at USSD are the ones who can resolve this. If they don't then there is something going on behind the scenes which we are unable to get at and may never get at.

Is the explanation us very prosaic? Nothing deep but a lot bumbling and goof ups by all the parties involved. Not malice but simple incompetence could be the explanation. If so that is very sad.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by shiv »

Fact is, India has much to lose from pissing off the US. The US issues 2 million non immigrant visas to Indians every year. Compare that with about 500,000 visitors from India to Dubai or Malaysia annually although the comparison may well be flawed.

Foreign inward remittances of money coming to India has the US at the head of the list with about 40% of about 50 to 60 billion coming India India every year. The Gulf countries are second with about 30%.

To that extent it is important for India to make the US need India. Orders for stuff whose production lines will close (like the C 17) or stuff where the US faces much pressure from Europe (like Boeing civilian airliners) are certainly useful in recycling the money that comes from the US back into the US - as something that can be held back if the US does not play ball.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by UlanBatori »

burden of proof is on PB to show that DK was not working for UN at the time of her arrest, as whatever the burden ofproof was on DK was already submitted to the xourt as the UN identity card, which was reluctantly accepted by PB as a genuine one but doubtful only if she was actually working for UN. We can argue that asDK was getting distracted with additional responsibility as DCG, GoI decided to transfer her to UN permanent mission as her role in UN has been very satisfactory, anyways PB doesnt have any business to comment on what GoI Foreig. Office should do to its employee. Also it is none of PB's business to comment on what SR was doing in Consulate of India, if she was cleaning toilets in in CGI or working as Nanny. She is an employee of GoI and not a personal employee of DK. Period.
Hmm! Time to apply my vast experience of making judicial decishuns to this deep mattar.
So let's see:
1) it is true that DK had UN immunity in principle, prior to the arrest. The SD is now down to arguing technicalities of whether the UN forms were filled in, or read properly, or acted upon in a timely manner by SD. Did SD formally DENY or REJECT the UN accreditation? Or just let it sit somewhere? If the latter, and that is the usual practice (probably, given the timeliness of their performance on everything else), then it must be reasonably presumed that DK had UN immunity.
Therefore the ARREST was illegal. There is no question of arguing about the visa form etc, since the arrest was illegal. End of story.

2)SD's argument on whether DK was or was not doing some work for the UN, is incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial as Hamilton bin Burger would have said. I could argue that Kerry actually doesn't do diddly either for the money that he is paid, so why pick on DK? In fact the entire Indian Consulate rarely does any work, since they "outsource" everything, hey? The only time I had the misfortune to actually call them and get through was back in the 1980s when my passport renewal was delayed at lot. Called long-distance from Ulan Bator. Put on hold, as in receiver left on desk so I could hear the deep Consular/UN/Strategic discussions underway:
Oh, Ramesh, isn't that goldfish in that bowl oooooo soooooo cuuuuuuute, na? Sooo sweet of youuuuu!
(the rest was even more Classified Top Secret, I won't write it here, pls see Snowden/Wikileasks files). This was in the days when they HAD work to be done, i.e., b4 they "outsourced" the tough job of misspelling one's name on the Passport and putting those two stamps on it.

So the argument that DK wasn't doing anything for the UN only PROVES that she was a regular UN diplomat. That's what they do on any regular working din at the UN, the Consulate, and the SD: nothing. Except for the Paki wife-beater who comes on and threatens to nuke India periodically. And Muddlin' Halfbright who would hallucinate that she was back in a classroom full of would-b SD mandarins, and lecture everyone like they were cretins too. And imagine that anyone at the UN gave a pakistan what she ranted.

Anyway it is no business of the SD whether DK actually did anything at the UN or not. Sure they would know, because they snoop on everyone, but it is still none of their bijnez.

3) Looking beyond, HerOnner can see quite plainly that the entire case is bogus. It was SR who was the visa Applicant. The COMPUTER and IP used may have been DK's. What else did they expect? SR LIVED THERE, arre Einshteins! They had only one DSL connection, and the computer that was connected to it was the apartment computer, i.e., "DK's" computer. SR was allowed to use it. OK, if SR was not charged for part ownership, nor apportioned pro rata costs by deduction from her paycheque for using it, then that should be added to SR's wages paid in computing what she was paid. Of course computing that would take a computer, and the cost of that should also be added in.

4) The argument that helping SR fill out the form was not part of Consular Duties is also bogus. SR was on an OFFICIAL PASSPORT. Therefore she was an employee of the GOI, not an au pair for DK. Therefore, the relationship between DK and SR was as supervisory GOI employee to underling GOI employee. Most definitely part of DK's Official Duties, just like filling out the UN accreditation card.

5) If the SD argues that the dates etc on the UN application "didn't make any sense", that removes PB's argument that any nonsense written on the visa form was deliberate. DK apparently couldn't do anything by herself, she would mess up the simplest task. Why do you think her role at the Consulate was to look sharp and grin a lot? Probably all exam papers etc were done by daddy-O UK. See above re: Ramesh and goldfish to get an idea of the competence usually demanded of NYC desi Consulate Aphsarsinis. For that matter, look at what SD did with the UN accreditation sent to them many months/years ago. Q.E.D.

6) SD admits that the UN accreditation was through 2016 but since she left that is invalid. OK, so DK has been reassigned by GOI. So what? The US declared her png too, so they can hardly demand that she return to the US. Who's going to fill out the visa form for her to return? She? Clearly incompetent. SR? crooked. Mark bin Smith? Illiterate. Salman Khurshid? Don't make me :rotfl: NaMO's PA (whoever filled out his form years ago)? Ditto.

But is HerOnner as experienced as I in these matters I wonder...
Shreeman
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Shreeman »

UlanBatori wrote:
burden of proof is ....
IANAL. Narrow scope of proceedings, only reasonable "victimhood" of SR needed to proceed. procedural actions eg arrest not being discussed. Happy to be wrong and for all this to be over. But likely not monday. IANAL. dont quote me on it.

ps. The more I think about it something something, 2014, something somethin something 2014. something about 2014 quid pro quo. thats the only conspiracy theory that makes any sense. others have previously thought along accidental victim/sacrificial lamb lines. somebody had to be IT.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by TKiran »

The very reason why US is perceived as all powerful is not only because of its military might but also because of its soft power. I am sure its soft power has been eroded in India because of this episode. Slowly Khan's stature inthe world is eroding. The reason why India is worried is not because if US is not there India would suffer, in fact India can get defence, financial, economic or energy needs would be jeopardized (alternatives are available at a much cheper strategic costs), but because we may loose a partner who has much in common with us (how much ever some people suggest otherwise). This attitude of Khan is called "Vinash Kale Vipreet Buddhi". We are still hoping that it should not be "Vinash Kale Vipreet Buddhi". That is the reason we still hope that US would somehow put an end to this unprecedent episode.

Strategically India had always displayed its moral high ground and magnonimity, which is the attribute of a Superpower, even though we lacked military and economic strength, right from the days of our Independence. Now that we are growing and already defeated all sorts of subversive activities against us, Including Terrorism, US is puzzled at our strength. They just dont understand us and always feel threatened by us, though we dont have anything to threaten them with except projecting our soft power.

India is worried that we would not be able to USE Khans anymore, so far we used them as 'Kadi Pattha' and US is no more useful in our journey. We have to go through this journey all alone from now onwards. Only people who understand Dharma would understand India and its journey.

So expect the rapid decline of US from now onwards. DK incident has been the turning point of sorts
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by UlanBatori »

Intelligent judge who probably has plenty of experience with nanny's workload and nanny employment and maybe au pairs, can see through the SR victimhood, from a mile off. So entirely within her power to say :P to PB and save everyone a lot of time, money and energy. No sense in bringing case to trial. I am holding her to this minimal standard.

No conspiracy theory makes any sense. Assumes vast intelligence and omniscient, 10-steps-ahead planning at micro-level by the same ppl who sat on their thumbs during Benghazi, and couldn't plan ahead to get AES to turn in taxes or at least get Paco to eat that memo asking ppl to cheat. Also, to set their paco-burger fb pages to "friends onlee". Even I know how to do that (I hope!!)

All that CT is dhoti-shiver, IMO. Having watched him make a pakistan of his presidential campaign, I can't see John Kerry having the time, patience, attention span or understanding of injuns, to be part of this grand plan. These ppl work on 1-minute or 5-minute Briefings. If they sit and conspire for an hour, it has to be on something worth at least $100M official, or $10M if it is for personal gain.

It should be seen as a simple mugging/extortion play by a goon gang. We need to demand COTUS investigation of the players, trace the money-split from prior extortions, maybe induce one of the players to turn State's Evidence and cavity-search the rest.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Lisa »

TSJ, it would be unfortunate to lose a native voice in the thread. Please post.

Over 10 years ago they were building a temple in London and brought over artisans from India, under contracts willingly signed in India.to assist with building work-primarily stonemasons. It transpired later during an audit that the agreed wage was incompatible with the minimum wage in the UK. Inland Revenue approached the temple advised them of this fact and they in turn agreed to top up their pay-pack to comply with UK legislation.

Everybody happy particularly the stonemasons who were paid considerably more then they were asking/expecting.

Look carefully, no arrest needed, no cavity searching done, nobody needed any diplomatic immunity, no TX visa issued, no diplomatic expulsions, no real incident. So much goodwill that every PM in office since has been invited and received at the temple and MP's of all sides regularly visit the institution. Prince Charles was there last year.

Compare and contrast an American reaction from available options!

Sorry TSJ, plain simple stupidity from a state department that barely knows it ar@e from its elbow.

P.S this is the same State Department that has now decided to realise that Modi is a possibility, some 18 months behind a similar UK reaction. What exactly do they understand of India from all the intelligence they gather?
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by chetak »

Lisa wrote:TSJ, it would be unfortunate to lose a native voice in the thread. Please post.

Over 10 years ago they were building a temple in London and brought over artisans from India, under contracts willingly signed in India.to assist with building work-primarily stonemasons. It transpired later during an audit that the agreed wage was incompatible with the minimum wage in the UK. Inland Revenue approached the temple advised them of this fact and they in turn agreed to top up their pay-pack to comply with UK legislation.

Everybody happy particularly the stonemasons who were paid considerably more then they were asking/expecting.

Look carefully, no arrest needed, no cavity searching done, nobody needed any diplomatic immunity, no TX visa issued, do diplomatic expulsions, no real incident. So much goodwill that every PM in office since has been invited and received at the temple and MP's of all sides regularly visit the institution. Prince Charles was there last year.

Compare and contrast an American reaction from available options!

Sorry TSJ, plain simple stupidity from a state department that barely knows it ar@e from its elbow.

P.S this is the same State Department that has now decided to realise that Modi is a possibility, some 18 months behind a similar UK reaction. What exactly do they understand of India from all the intelligence they gather?

Good argument there, Lisa ji.

The third grade diplomutts (trailer trash or rednecks) that the SD deigns to send to India seem more focused on bible thumping, protein intake and water buffalo meat.

Seems that they have no time for productive culture sensitive, diplomatic, trade and economic pursuits in India but getting raped for decades by the pakis at every turn is OK by them.

We have to be shown (generally by ABCDs) as bad third world for them to reinforce their own first world stereo typing.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by shiv »

chetak wrote: The third grade diplomutts (trailer trash or rednecks) that the SD deigns to send to India seem more focused on bible thumping, protein intake and water buffalo meat.

Seems that they have no time for productive culture sensitive, diplomatic, trade and economic pursuits in India but getting raped for decades by the pakis at every turn is OK by them.

We have to be shown (generally by ABCDs) as bad third world for them to reinforce their own first world stereo typing.
I wonder if US diplomats have any sort of training in diplomacy or they simply employ some selected sycophants to fill posts.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Lisa »

shiv wrote:
chetak wrote: The third grade diplomutts (trailer trash or rednecks) that the SD deigns to send to India seem more focused on bible thumping, protein intake and water buffalo meat.

Seems that they have no time for productive culture sensitive, diplomatic, trade and economic pursuits in India but getting raped for decades by the pakis at every turn is OK by them.

We have to be shown (generally by ABCDs) as bad third world for them to reinforce their own first world stereo typing.
I wonder if US diplomats have any sort of training in diplomacy or they simply employ some selected sycophants to fill posts.
I think they have none. A couple of examples and then i exit. After the Camp David accord was signed Carter visited Egypt. On arrival in an Islamic country he was greeted by Sadat and his wife and in his wisdom he kissed Sadat's wife. Many of the Brotherhood after killing Sadat cited this one event as the last straw, another man kissing your wife. Sadat was now a complete sell-out and bull cutlet. Most Americans reading this paragraph wont even understand what I am saying.

Poor amrikans not even knowing this much after having an embassy in Egypt for so many years and you are expecting common sense from them in New York! Stupid, ignorant, idiotic are insufficient enough vocabulary for SD.

In the UK under the Forces Agreement US airbases have supermarkets in them. I asked why and was told that the average serviceman had barely left his own state let alone country and therefore had no idea how to shop in a foreign country! Remember we were taking of English speaking UK not foreign speaking third world country. If this is how military acts in UK why such high expectation of them in NY with regard to treatment of Indians.

If you really want to see the calibre of US politicians see them being brutalised by a SINGLE British MP. They don't know how or where to run. Personally cannot stand Galloway but just watch how he single handed sorts them out. I am sure they cant count to 21 without their pant off.

[youtube]watch?v=j5u1skEoqLs[/youtube]
UlanBatori
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by UlanBatori »

I have always been enamo(u)red of the Brish1t sense of justice and fair play, what-what I say, and their very smooth (lubricated) procedures, as well as their famed cultural sensitivity:

Its the best way for Immigrants

or here

Especially towards Asian cultures

in view of their "submissive, meek" and soft(?) nature
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Lisa »

Its the wrong thread for this notwithstanding the fact that I live in a dynamic world in which both people and nations change and not a static one in which 40 year old history is quote as modern day fact.
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