Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 10 Feb 2014 22:06

Choppy first ride home for INS Vikramaditya

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 10 Feb 2014 23:11

Yikes

SanjayC wrote:Choppy first ride home for INS Vikramaditya

India’s largest and most-expensive warship, the INS Vikramaditya, faced embarrassing glitches during its home-bound voyage from the north Russian shipyard of Sevmash to the Karwar naval base in Karnataka, causing jitters in the defence ministry.

A handout photograph from the defence ministry of aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya; which was commissioned into the Indian Navy on November 16, 2013; at the Sevmash Shipyard in Severodvinsk. (AFP Photo)
The $2.33 billion ( Rs. 13,980 crore) aircraft carrier, bought second-hand from Russia and delivered five years behind schedule, reportedly suffered a boiler breakdown during its 42-day journey, compromising the warship’s ability to cut through choppy seas at a top speed of up to 56 kmph, a navy source said. The vessel has a history of boiler problems with 2012 sea trials failing due to a design problem in the ship’s boilers.

Moreover, the tanker accompanying the 44,500-tonne aircraft carrier failed to carry out a refuelling mission near the Portuguese coast, raising doubts about the navy’s ability to replenish warships on the high seas.

A senior defence ministry official confirmed to HT that the warship faced technical problems during its homeward journey and the navy would be asked to submit a detailed report on the incidents.

The details have hit the navy at a time when it is trying to defend its safety record with the last six months witnessing 10 accidents, some of which have been overlooked by the navy as ‘non-incidents’.

Top navy officials, however, denied that the warship had encountered any significant difficulties, an assertion dismissed by the defence ministry. “One of the eight boilers on the warship malfunctioned. But the vessel can sustain itself at sea even if only four boilers are working,” the navy source said.

“INS Deepak, the tanker, was unable to refuel the carrier off the Portuguese coast as the seas were very rough. The task was aborted till conditions were favourable,” the source added.

The INS Vikramaditya underwent a thorough examination of its boilers on reaching Karwar, an activity that top officials described as “routine maintenance work.”

This is only the latest controversy to hit the troubled aircraft carrier, supposed to be a gift from Russia with India paying only for the refurbishments. The original $947 million ( Rs. 5,682 crore) deal, however, turned sour with multiple delays in delivery and a steep increase in price. The warship was finally delivered last year, five years behind schedule, with the Comptroller and Auditor General criticising the government for paying nearly 60% more than the cost of a brand-new aircraft carrier.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 10 Feb 2014 23:28

How many IN ships are armed with Brahmos?

Recent (f)articles talk about Five (5) IN ships being armed with Brahmos... I thought it should be more... I did a rough calculation...

1) Rajput Class - 5
2) Talwar Class - 3+3 = 6 (There was an article sometime back about the original 3 Frigates getting the Brahmos / Brahmos+Klub VLS plugin.
3) Shivalik Class - 3
4) Delhi Class - 2 (as I think INS Delhi was never retrofitted with Brahmos)
5) Kolkatta Class - 1 (on the verge of being commissioned)

I am not sure if any of the NOPVs or other Frigates have Brahmos!!!
Gurus, please clarify.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 10 Feb 2014 23:49

SanjayC wrote:Choppy first ride home for INS Vikramaditya

Methinks there are some vested interest operating in a spate of negative articles like this... let us see the two pieces of information here...
1) INS Deepak (the fleet tanker) mentioned did/could not refuel the carrier
2) INS Vikramaditya's Boiler (ONE of the many) developed a snag.

The author conveniently forgot to mention the sea-state at the time of this refueling attempt or the number of times it re-fuelled the carrier as well as the other assets of the escort package. If the carrier was capable of operating with one less boiler, it is not a big issue. Afterall they have sailing non-stop all the way from Russia. Anyway there is going to be extensive checks before the carrier is commissioned into the Navy. All these Rhona-Dhona assumes significance in the back-drop of multiple incidents involving IN assets recently.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 10 Feb 2014 23:53

Shrinivasan wrote:The author conveniently forgot to mention the sea-state at the time of this refueling attempt or the number of times it re-fuelled the carrier as well as the other assets of the escort package. If the carrier was capable of operating with one less boiler, it is not a big issue. Afterall they have sailing non-stop all the way from Russia. Anyway there is going to be extensive checks before the carrier is commissioned into the Navy. All these Rhona-Dhona assumes significance in the back-drop of multiple incidents involving IN assets recently.

While I agree that the whole "unable to refuel" thingy was overblown (media people being media people

), the boiler issue to me is more than a "snag", especially in light of past incidents related to the same. The Navy needs to build confidence around this boiler issue else it may find itself in a jam similar to which the Vikrant found itself in during the 1971 war.

John · Post by **John** » 11 Feb 2014 04:44

Shrinivasan wrote:How many IN ships are armed with Brahmos?

As of now only 3 of Rajputs and 2nd batch of Talwar. No indication they have been fitted on Shivalik or Talwar-I. IMO i highly doubt the older vessels will be fitted with Brahmos since the existing missile are not NEOL.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Feb 2014 05:45

Anyone who knows the kind of weather experienced in the Bay of Biscay will have a good laugh at the report.In addition,this year has seen the worst weather in that part of the world with almost the whole of SW England flooded.With weather forecasts so accurate these days with sat info,etc.,the refueling at sea should've been done either earlier or after the bad weather front.The boiler problem is of more concern given the cladding controversy earlier,but there is a tech team from the builder staying at Karwar that will supposedly stay with the carrier for a year to iron out all teething problems.

Here is an interesting report with pics of the innovative Russian 20380 Bokiky ASW missile corvette,during and after construction with a model pic too,explaining the key points.It appears to be a smaller version of the Talwar concept and worth comparing with our P-28 class.The key armamanet includes a 100mm main gun in "A" position,12 cell VLS launcher in "B" position,8 Uran missiles amidships behind stealth covers,conformal radars,32 IGLA missiles,2 30 mm gatlings,one Kamov helo,plus two 324mm TTs and a TAS.20-30 such corvettes are being built and would be relatively inexpensive warships too given their small size and weapons package.Worldwide corvettes are becoming the ideal ASW and limited multi-role surface combatant for navies which can induct them in large number.

The Boikiy,class ASW corvette of just 1900t carries the foll:

1 x Arsenal A-190 100mm
2 x MTPU pedestal 14.5 machine gun
32 x 9M96E/M or 9M100 missiles (Redut system)[1]
6 x 3M54 Klub or 8 x 3M24 Uran
2 x AK-630М CIWS
4 x 400mm torpedo tubes
SS-N-29 / RPK-9 Medvedka-VE anti-submarine rockets

KA-27 helo.

http://englishrussia.com/2013/05/19/bes ... al-forces/

P-28 (Wik):
1 X 76.2 mm Oto SRGM
2 x AK-630M CIWS
2 X RBU-6000 (IRL) anti-submarine rocket launcher
2 x 4 3M-54 Klub cruise missile[5]
2x8 Barak SAM
2x3 Torpedo tubes
Aircraft carried: 1 Westland Sea King Mk.42B

Is there any confirmation that the P-28s carry Klub? With German TAS systems being inducted across the board for IN warships,with a given range of 60km for sub detection,the IN's ASW surface combatants now require a LR ASW weapon system ,like the KLUB ASW variant which can be launched either from a silo or torpedo tube.Medvedka and other longer ranged ASW systems than MBUs systems are also available.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Feb 2014 08:15

russia uses these small but heavily armed ships for coastal patrols in the barents sea, artic belt, west pacific ocean, black sea and baltic sea. their endurance and room for extra crew for long missions would perhaps be limited.

that is why you see our ships being large but somewhat underarmed compared to the pocket rockets russia keeps designing. while the hulls may be small, the weapons and radars will add up the cost steeply, so its not a simple eqn to say 3 x 2000t == 1 x 6000t. three sets of engines and drivetrains too, three sets of crew, additional tanker support, additional logistics at base.

but even our Saryu class is capable of crossing the ocean and patrolling off east africa and indonesia when called for. likewise the us coast guard has long range ocean crossing patrol vessels that operate off africa, antarctic etc.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Feb 2014 08:28

What is the average patrol for an IN frigate ,corvette?IN Khukri/Koras too have made LR patrols outside the IOR accompanying larger warships .Our P-28s look underarmed if they're going to sail into harm's way.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 11 Feb 2014 12:41

Very good summary of Boeing P8-i and sensors
[youtube]zJF72zyZXwk&feature=c4-overview&list=UUIrrPKfwxirw9v4AKqiNlkg[/youtube]

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 11 Feb 2014 21:42

P-15A:

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/02/ ... s.html?m=0

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Feb 2014 22:01

my only complaint is why not 8xbrahmos in inclined tubes amidships and pack in more SAMs in vacated space foredeck.

John · Post by **John** » 11 Feb 2014 22:08

Singha wrote:my only complaint is why not 8xbrahmos in inclined tubes amidships and pack in more SAMs in vacated space foredeck.

I was thinking of more Barak-8 but i don't think there is any room amidship for even 2 by 2 Uran. Still waiting on official confirmation on Barak-8 fit 8*4 or 8*8 etc. The superstructure and mast design is on par with European DDG, the deck and rear are bit lagging however.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/P15a.jpg

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 11 Feb 2014 22:24

John wrote:.. Still waiting on official confirmation on Barak-8 fit 8*4 or 8*8 etc. ...

Note 2 x 2 x 4 Barak-1 VLS behind Brahmos VLS.

John · Post by **John** » 11 Feb 2014 22:30

Aditya,

You mean Barak-8? Each Barak-8 VLS module consists of 8 cells so apart from 2 you mentioned and there is 2 by the hanger. So that makes 32 but i have seen few claims of 48 or even 64.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Feb 2014 14:31

Man With a Mission
Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral D.K. Joshi PVSM, AVSM, YSM, NM, VSM, ADC

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Feb 2014 16:35

Australian Navy frigate HMAS Darwin visits Southern Command

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Feb 2014 20:36

Indo-Israeli LR-SAM Naval Test This Year

raj.devan · Post by **raj.devan** » 12 Feb 2014 23:49

The LR-SAM, designated Barak 8 by IAI, when inducted, will be housed in four vertical launch units (VLUs), each housing eight missiles, on each of the three Project-15A destroyers, seven Project-17A stealth frigates and aircraft carrier Vikrant, i.e, each of India’s next-generation warships will carry at least 32 LR-SAMs. The combat suites of both vessel classes will be built around the Elta EL/M-2248 MF-STAR

Is the Elta MF Star just the radar system like the SPY1 that the USN uses, or is it a complete air defence combat system like the AEGIS? Also, has the MF Star already been installed on all these vessels already commissioned, in particular, on the Vikramaditya?

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 13 Feb 2014 02:34

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2 ... 2_WEB.pdfr to

refer to page 17 Water Mist-based Fire Suppression System
This is a top of the line system which can be applied with personnel in the compartment, and with machinery running , far superior to the halon and/or co2 systems in use because of quick reaction time (as personnel do not need to be evacuated.) Also has a cooling effect unlike co2 and/or halon. The damage due to fire can be reduced manyfold and asset quickly brought back to service.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Feb 2014 02:54

The water mist does not work too well when there are electrical/computer components around - they get shorted.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 13 Feb 2014 03:49

http://lpgfire.com.au/?page_id=111

NRao please refer to above link it will dispell the myth of electrical shorting.

I have personally used this equipment in the vicinity of a 600v alternator with it generating power.

If per chance you need more info, Please feel free to ask.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Feb 2014 07:36

raj.devan wrote:
The LR-SAM, designated Barak 8 by IAI, when inducted, will be housed in four vertical launch units (VLUs), each housing eight missiles, on each of the three Project-15A destroyers, seven Project-17A stealth frigates and aircraft carrier Vikrant, i.e, each of India’s next-generation warships will carry at least 32 LR-SAMs. The combat suites of both vessel classes will be built around the Elta EL/M-2248 MF-STAR
Is the Elta MF Star just the radar system like the SPY1 that the USN uses, or is it a complete air defence combat system like the AEGIS? Also, has the MF Star already been installed on all these vessels already commissioned, in particular, on the Vikramaditya?

Aegis used separate round dish radars called SPS to direct inflight missiles. you can see them atop the wheelhouse and back behind the funnel. the SPY1 is for detectio and tracking.

the MFSTAR in the mould of APAR/EMPAR/Sampson combines both the functions. it obviously comes with consoles and control system to manage the Barak8 missiles too. it is alleged that aegis ships can share radar data and also provide midcourse updates to SAMs already launched by other ships..not sure what is the truth there. we dont seem to be aiming for that yet.

John · Post by **John** » 13 Feb 2014 08:52

SM-2/ESSM are Semi active guided missile so it needs to uses FCR to provide terminal illumination similar to Shtil-1/Orekh combination where as Barak-8 is an active guided missile and doesn't require it. So it cannot be compared to APAR.

Compared to Sampson, Sampson has superior max range and tracking ability and in Type 45 Sampson is placed nearly twice as high compared to P-15A. Greatly increasing its range against sea skimmer but however there are 4 faces for MF-STAR providing 360 degree coverage. Which is better? Depends on who you ask.

raj.devan · Post by **raj.devan** » 13 Feb 2014 08:59

@Singha: what is meant, I guess, when they refer to the weapons and missiles of one ship being 'slaved' to the detection and control software of another. I can imagine that this would be a force multiplier when used by a carrier battle group.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 13 Feb 2014 12:53

raj.devan wrote:
The LR-SAM, designated Barak 8 by IAI, when inducted, will be housed in four vertical launch units (VLUs), each housing eight missiles, on each of the three Project-15A destroyers, seven Project-17A stealth frigates and aircraft carrier Vikrant, i.e, each of India’s next-generation warships will carry at least 32 LR-SAMs. The combat suites of both vessel classes will be built around the Elta EL/M-2248 MF-STAR
Is the Elta MF Star just the radar system like the SPY1 that the USN uses, or is it a complete air defence combat system like the AEGIS? Also, has the MF Star already been installed on all these vessels already commissioned, in particular, on the Vikramaditya?

Nothing with MF-STAR has been commissioned yet. Vikrant is far away, first of Kolkata class a few months away and P-17A design hasn't even been finalized yet.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 13 Feb 2014 16:38

India Proposes Joint Maintenance of Aircraft Carrier With Russia

MOSCOW, February 13 (RIA Novosti) – India has proposed servicing a Russian-built aircraft carrier delivered to the country last month together with Russia’s Sevmash shipyard over the next 40 years, the shipbuilder said Thursday.

Sevmash said the current servicing contract is for 20 years, but that Indian naval officials have proposed to extend that timeframe.

“Our Indian partners have proposed to conduct all service work on the ship together with Sevmash,” the White Sea-based shipbuilder said.

The Vikramaditya was ceremonially handed over to India in November, but only departed from Russia in December, and arrived safely at its new home port Karwar last month.

Sevmash representatives are scheduled to visit India next month as part of an intergovernmental military cooperation commission.

The two countries have longstanding military ties and, among other projects, have cooperated on the supersonic BrahMos cruise missile and the fifth-generation PAK-FA jet fighter still under development.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 13 Feb 2014 18:52

INS Chakra is also participating in the Ex

CNS Admiral DK Joshi, FOC in C ENC Anil Chopra at Ex TROPEX - 2014

John · Post by **John** » 13 Feb 2014 21:03

raj.devan wrote:@Singha: what is meant, I guess, when they refer to the weapons and missiles of one ship being 'slaved' to the detection and control software of another. I can imagine that this would be a force multiplier when used by a carrier battle group.

Completely different seekers so how Aegis functions cannot be compared with Barak-8 . The latter has some network centric capabilities like having another system other than MF- STAR provide mid course guidance to the missile (ex AWACS or radar data transmitted to the ship from KA-31).

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 13 Feb 2014 22:02

Singha wrote: Aegis used separate round dish radars called SPS to direct inflight missiles. you can see them atop the wheelhouse and back behind the funnel. the SPY1 is for detectio and tracking.

Incorrect.

The "SPS" radar is the AN/SPS-49 which is an air search radar. It is technically not part of the "Aegis Weapon System."

The SPY-1 detects and tracks, and also provides mid-course guidance to the Standard missiles.

The SPG-62 provides the terminal guidance for the Standard missiles.

Using Aegis for comparison with MF-STAR, Barak-8 leads to further confusion as it is much more.

vic · Post by **vic** » 14 Feb 2014 13:11

L&T Unmanned under water vehicle

http://i.imgur.com/ZmG3wQz.jpg

vic · Post by **vic** » 14 Feb 2014 13:12

DRDO Unmanned submersible

http://i.imgur.com/Diqnn8M.jpg

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Feb 2014 13:38

yes I got the name wrong. here we see 2 on a tico. tico has 6 I think and each can provide guidance to a few sam.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... -09-01.jpg

vic · Post by **vic** » 14 Feb 2014 13:48

DRDO intends to build unmanned submersible of upto 12 tons weight

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... 0290_n.jpg

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 14 Feb 2014 21:26

Will · Post by **Will** » 14 Feb 2014 21:38

What will be the major difference between the P15A and the P15B?

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 14 Feb 2014 22:27

Will fm Wiki
Project 15B[edit]

In January 2011, the Cabinet Committee on Security gave approval for a follow-on order of four more destroyers under Project 15B. Project 15B will retain the same hull as 15A Kolkata-class destroyers, but there will be significant changes in the superstructure that will improve the ships stealth characteristics (flush deck), include better sound and infrared suppression systems and more sophisticated weaponry such as: Nirbhay land-attack cruise missiles, hypersonic BrahMos-II anti-ship missiles and Barak 8-ER SAMs.[16] They will operate two helicopters, and are expected to displace approximately 8,000 tonnes at full displacement (1200 tonnes more than 15A). Russia's Baltic Shipyard has been contracted to provide four sets of line shafts by 2017. Saint Petersburg's Northern Design Bureau was consulted during the design phase.[17][18]

The total cost of the project is expected to be INR30000 crore (US$5 billion).[19] Build-time for Project 15B is expected to be shorter than 15A, as no major re-designing would be done and would require only one and a half years of planning. Due to this, each warship is expected to save US$ 1 billion in costs. After finalisation of design, the first destroyer is expected within four years, with the others delivered at annual intervals, starting from 2018.[20] Mazgaon Docks laid the keel for the first P-15B destroyer on 12 October 2013.[9

unquote

The part of 1 billion USD saving per vessel seems high if this is true then 15A cost 2.25 billion USD per pop, can anyone confirm

John · Post by **John** » 14 Feb 2014 23:13

P-15A doesn't cost 2.2 billion it was a mistake where the article was supposed to say 2.2 billion for 3 vessels, with delays could probably be around 800+ mill/each. Put into perspective 6,000 Tonne P-17s had more western equipment than P-15A and was hit with worse delays (and issues with US admin holding up Turbines) and that cost around 600 million. Barak-8/MF-Star is quoted at around 100 mill which is not much more than what russians are asking for VL-Shtil/Fregat. Anyway looking at naval budget i am surprised they room to cover that cost increase might explain why the AEW Helo tender keeps getting pushed back...

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 15 Feb 2014 00:36

vic wrote:DRDO Unmanned submersible

http://i.imgur.com/Diqnn8M.jpg

Looks like a large bottle of M&M/Smarties/Gems is the payload at the front/right of the submersible

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Feb 2014 13:23

The two UAVs are welcome developments.Wasn't IIT Madras supposed to have something to do with the DRDO UUV development? L&T's looks as if it can be launched from a TT.

The P-15Bs will be amongst the most powerfully armed DDGs when they arrive.They are really light cruisers in capability.To protect our 3 carrier navy in the future,highly efficient anti-missile defences and LR SAMs,plus a variety of ASW sensors and weaponry will be required.layered anti-missile/air defences are required to meet the challenge of supersonic missiles in possession by our rivals in the future.The ASW threat will be more severe,as the carrier's own air assets will be capable of providing a large radius of air cover for the fleet.Sub-launched anti-ship missiles and torpedoes will be the most difficult threats to combat.Carrier vs carrier battles for the IN would have only one enemy,China.We have no "beef" with the USN.The PLAN's carriers have their task cut out in the Asia-Pacific region and would find transiting the Malacca Straits into the IOR extremely hazardous,especially if they have no base facilities in a friendly country.Gwadar is at the extreme end of the northern IOR and there's an awful lot of water from there to the Malacca Straits.

The PLAN's sub fleet growing to about 80 subs by 2020 will be the major challenge.Pak is also acquiring 6 Yuan class S-20 AIP subs from China.These have been specially developed for export to compete with Russian and other EU origin subs.ThebPLAN have been conducting exercises off the Lombok Straits in exploring alternative routes into the IOR ,apart from operating out of BDesh and Burmese ports,in an answer to the "Malacca Dimemma".

If our UUVs being developed can be launched and recovered from our subs,it would be a significant development.Our subs could stay some safe distance away from the coastline in Q,launch the UUVs to reconnoitre the stretch requited,pick out minefields,and other defences.

http://www.upiasia.com/Top-News/2014/02 ... 392354300/