Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jul 2014 20:06

An-26 shot down today, 14 parachutists jump out

http://youtu.be/M2_BgnW95H0

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 Jul 2014 20:08

And SoS Colin bin Powell waved "very recent satellite reconnaissance photos" from 1990 at the UN Security Council in 2003 (source: State Dept/other agency ppl who knew and were aghast) to "prove that Saddam had WMD" and "justify" the Dubyan invasion of Iraq, even as the UN Weapons Inspectors screamed as loud as they could that there were NO WMD in Iraq any more. The US "Classified World" even invented dark rumors of an Iraqi rogue ship approaching the US coast carrying thermonuclear bombs, as public protests rose against the blatant lying.

As far as I know, none of those "responsible" have been tried, much less hanged, for the death/ mutilation/permanent psychological trauma of over 30000? 50000? American soldiers and their families, nor of the uncounted (1 million? 3 million? 50 million?) Iraqis killed/maimed as a result of this criminal fraud.

Sorry to have to say this about the US govt, but one effect of lying again and again is that one loses credibility.

And.. the UK govt (remember the "Dossiehs" of B.Poodle Liar?) has supported the US claims, which is PROOF that they are all lies.

The Russians are no angels, but in this case the "cui bono" points straight at the illegal US Govt-supported agents and its contractors/prostitutes of the chocolate/arsenic variety.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Jul 2014 20:12

Do not discount the conspiracy theories floating around concerning he MH 17 disaster.They may be true,as this piece by veteran Independent journo Patrick Coburn suggests with examples.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 16863.html

The truth about conspiracy theories is that some require considering
World View: For instance, did Isis kill the Israeli teenagers to trigger a war?

Patrick Cockburn
Sunday 20 July 2014
World View: For instance, did Isis kill the Israeli teenagers to trigger a war?

The Greeks tell a story against themselves about their tendency to believe in conspiracy theories. They relate how God decided that he would give every nation as a gift a special national characteristic. On the appointed day, representatives of the nations of the world entered the divine presence and were handed their gifts. The Americans received optimism, the French elegance, the British stoicism, the Russians courage, the Iranians cunning, and so on.

The Greek delegation was delayed and arrived late just as the other nations were leaving. God apologised and explained to them that he was sorry but he had already given away the most desirable characteristics and there were none left. The Greeks were enraged and protested furiously, shouting "so you too, God, have joined the plot against us as we always expected you would. Go on, tell us who is paying you and why do you conspire against us?" Angered in turn, God said: "Very well, you Greeks will have a gift in keeping with your accusations. In future, it will be part of your national character to always believe in conspiracy to explain everything that happens to you."

I was first told this story by a Greek Cypriot historian in 1975, a year after the Turkish invasion and part occupation of Cyprus. His point was that one reason for the disaster was that the Greeks and Greek Cypriots had been too prone to see politics in terms of plots and conspiracies and forgot the over-riding strategic fact that Cyprus is 600 miles from Athens and 40 miles from Turkey.

Conspiracy theories are damaging because they enable individuals, communities and governments to divert attention from their real problems and shift the blame for their failures elsewhere. Within hours of the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner over Ukraine, such theories were swirling around about who exactly shot it down and why commercial airliners were being routed over a war zone where two military aircraft had recently been destroyed by missiles.

Go back a month and look at the capture of much of northern Iraq by a few thousand fighters of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isis) and its allies in June. This was one of the most shameful and unnecessary defeats in history and happened because the Iraqi army and state was rotted by sectarianism and corruption.

Nevertheless, Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki blamed the great defeat on a conspiracy and has identified the Kurds as being the hidden hand behind the disintegration of the army. He claims that the Kurdish capital Erbil "is a headquarters for Isis, Baathists, al-Qa'ida and terrorists." His purpose is to persuade the Shia majority that he and they have been stabbed in the back by the treacherous Kurds. Ominously, he finds many believers in his own Shia community (going by the Facebook pages of vocal Shia) saying that a failing of Saddam Hussein was that he did not finish with the Kurds entirely.

Conspiracy theories often stem from joining up dots that are really quite separate. This is done by asking "cui bono?" or "who benefits" from an event and then assuming that the beneficiary must be secretly behind whatever has happened. A good example of this is the growth of Isis and other jihadi movements in Syria and Iraq which was to the advantage of President Bashar al-Assad because, however much they may dislike him, many Syrians and outside powers prefer Assad to al-Qa'ida type jihadis.

Predictably, the western media, diplomats and the "moderate" Syrian opposition claimed that Assad not only benefited from the existence of Isis and Jabhat al-Nusra but was secretly in league with them. "Notice Isis doesn't attack government forces," people would say with shallow cynicism in Beirut, though Isis was responsible for the capture of Minnigh military air base north of Aleppo, one of the few rebel victories last year.

Politics is largely about taking advantage of the mistakes and opportunities made by an opponent. It is scarcely surprising that Assad, having denounced all who protested against his rule as "terrorists" should have an incentive to highlight the predominance of the jihadis in rebel-held areas. Why should Assad attack Isis when it was fighting a civil war with the rest of the opposition? But it has always been an absurd exaggeration to imagine, as your true-born conspiracy theorist would hold, that Isis and al-Nusra were the creation of the government in Damascus.

Conspiracy theories may be at their most elaborate and virulent in the Middle East but there is plenty of competition in the rest of the world. Consider the demented scenarios claiming that the White House was secretly behind the 9/11 destruction of the twin towers. In so far as this has a sub-stratum of reason, it is because the attack was to the political advantage of the Bush administration, enabling it to pose as defender of the nation, thereby persuading some that it must be complicit in the al-Qa'ida plot. This nonsense masked the fact, culpably concealed or played down by the White House, that there was strong evidence linking 9/11 to supporters and sympathisers in Saudi Arabia.

Purveyors of conspiracy theories have at least four other powerful motives: a natural human delight in complicating matters and telling a good story; proving that an enemy is not only bad but demonically cunning; making money – think of all those profitable articles, books and films about the Kennedy assassination that could not have been sold if the official version of the shooting was correct.

A fourth reason why conspiracy theories have such currency is that a proportion of them are true. This is particularly the case in Iraq and Syria with their long traditions of Baathist governments which came to power through military conspiracies and were always seeking to detect similar plots against their own rule.

I was speaking last week to a Syrian Kurd asking him about the current Isis offensive which is taking over eastern Syria, capturing oil-rich Deir Ezzor province and assaulting the Kurdish enclaves in the north. We agreed that, given the international furore in the three weeks after Isis captured Mosul on 10 June, there was astonishingly little reaction to or publicity about Isis's successful new offensive in Syria. The reason for this is that this time international attention is focused on the Israeli bombardment of Gaza.

"Do you think it possible," asked my Syrian friend tentatively, "that Isis might have arranged to have the three Israeli teenagers killed – it certainly has militant cells on the West Bank – knowing that this would provoke an Israeli assault on Gaza and divert attention from its own operations?" I pooh-poohed the idea at the time as one more conspiracy theory based on no real evidence, but thinking it over I am not so sure.

I remember how in June 1982 the Israeli ambassador Shlomo Argov was critically wounded in London by three assassins working for the Abu Nidal movement directed by Iraqi intelligence. The aim, successfully accomplished, was to provoke the Israelis to invade Lebanon and become engaged in a war with Syria which was allied with Iran in the Iran-Iraq war and a hated enemy of Saddam Hussein. Israel knew Iraq was behind the assassination attempt but even so used it as an excuse to invade Lebanon to crush the PLO.

Could somebody in Isis, reputedly filled with former cadres of Saddam's regime, have hatched a somewhat similar plot? For all those ludicrous theories, there are real conspiracies out there.

PS:Russian Pres. Putin is reportedly terrified after receiving this ultimatum from the defence Min. of the mighty imperial British Empire (struggling to hold onto Scotland),which by the way does not have any ethnic Brits in the UKR unlike millions of ethnic Russians !

Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash: Michael Fallon tells Putin - 'get out of east Ukraine'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 17051.html

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 Jul 2014 20:16

Austin wrote:An-26 shot down today, 14 parachutists jump out

http://youtu.be/M2_BgnW95H0

Sorry, using my vast knowledge of Russian:

Очевидно Богус

Ochevidno Bogus

Those dots are on the camera lens. Voices/emotions of speakers are not those of people reporting on an event such as a plane crash and enemy paratroopers coming down. Maybe a video from an Army exercise.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jul 2014 20:20

I dont know for sure found it on mp.net

Recovery Of Malaysian Airlines Black Box Caught On Tape: Separatists To Hand Over To International Delegation

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Jul 2014 20:42

Hope Ukraine is not using our an26 to play cowboy in east like garage guy taking car for a spin.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 20 Jul 2014 21:03

Philip wrote:Do not discount the conspiracy theories floating around concerning he MH 17 disaster.They may be true,as this piece by veteran Independent journo Patrick Coburn suggests with examples.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 16863.html

The truth about conspiracy theories is that some require considering
World View: For instance, did Isis kill the Israeli teenagers to trigger a war?

It does not have to be the ISIS. The same patrons funding the ISIS are also funding the Hamas and the Islamic Jihad. To take the heat (and bad press) off the ISIS, they may well have got those bits of the Hamas/IJ they control to attack Israel and turn attention to it.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 20 Jul 2014 21:11

Looks like the jet burned for a while as it flew on but broke up eventually before falling to ground.

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 20 Jul 2014 21:21

^^ This is the vid of the Antonov shot down earlier. Recall seeing it earlier

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jul 2014 21:39

Yes there is no video of MH-17 getting shot in air. just one video of the aircraft falling on ground

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jul 2014 22:15

Good Read

The MH17 Shoot Down over Ukraine

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jul 2014 22:40

Biggest Dutch Daily Calls For NATO Intervention To Protect MH17; Feinstein Tells Putin To "Man Up And Confess"

Dianne Feinstein, chairman of the US Senate Intelligence Committee, has urged Russian President Vladimir Putin to "man up" and admit Russia made a mistake.

She told CNN: "I think this has become a huge human drama, and I think the nexus between Russia and the separatists has been established very clearly, so the issue is where is Putin?

"I would say, 'Putin, you have to man up. You should talk to the world. You should say, if this is a mistake, which I hope it was, say it.

"I think the world has to rise up and say we've had enough of this.

"You cannot let this kind of thing happen, and Russia continues to prepare it for the next strike down of a civilian plane. There will be repercussions from this."

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 20 Jul 2014 23:43

Austin wrote:Good Read

The MH17 Shoot Down over Ukraine

Wow, this guy goes all the way

. He has hit all points with precision though, based on the facts as they stand, buttressed by common sense.

The Ukrainians are so spaced out on crack that they have even prepared for the black box being recovered by the Russians first by simply lying through their teeth, knowing that Western media will take only their side and drown out the Russian side. But they have truly fncked up IMHO and will be swimming in crap before too long.

This has the fingerprints of ham handed neo-nazi neanderthals acting in semi-official capacity with predictable Keystone Cops results. Obama and the Euros must be pissing in their pants and have decided that the best defense is offense, ergo lie, lie, lie and lie again as loudly and often as possible. Note the shrill cries of "destroying the evidence" even as poor peasants do the honorable thing by taking away the bodies and gathering personal items in whatever way they can, a thankless and stinky job.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 21 Jul 2014 03:13

Victor wrote:
Austin wrote:Good Read

The MH17 Shoot Down over Ukraine
Wow, this guy goes all the way . He has hit all points with precision though, based on the facts as they stand, buttressed by common sense.

The Ukrainians are so spaced out on crack that they have even prepared for the black box being recovered by the Russians first by simply lying through their teeth, knowing that Western media will take only their side and drown out the Russian side. But they have truly fncked up IMHO and will be swimming in crap before too long.

This has the fingerprints of ham handed neo-nazi neanderthals acting in semi-official capacity with predictable Keystone Cops results. Obama and the Euros must be pissing in their pants and have decided that the best defense is offense, ergo lie, lie, lie and lie again as loudly and often as possible. Note the shrill cries of "destroying the evidence" even as poor peasants do the honorable thing by taking away the bodies and gathering personal items in whatever way they can, a thankless and stinky job.

Look who is on the board of Veterans Today, the source for the above good read:

EDITORIAL BOARD OF DIRECTORS

Lt. General Hamid Gul – Director General ISI (Former Chief of Intelligence Services, Pakistan)

And look under
INTERNATIONAL BUREAUS / CORRESPONDENTS

Southeastern Europe: Bureau Chief: Sir Vojislav Milosevic, Director General, Center for Counter-Terrorism and World Peace
Professor Andrija Slavik (Specialist on Diplomacy, War Plans and Psychological Warfare)
Lt. General (Retd.) Banko Krga – Former Head of Military Intelligence and Deputy Chief of General Staff, Serbian Armed Forces
Lt. General (Retd.) Satish Nambiar – Former Deputy Chief of Staff, Assistant Secretary General and Under Secretary General ,United Nations
Vice Admiral Radomir Grujic, Fleet Commander, Serbian Naval Forces, Chief of Staff, War College of Serbia

AoA. Bissful Track 25 jillion happening onlee.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 21 Jul 2014 04:21

Austin wrote:Good Read

The MH17 Shoot Down over Ukraine

Austin, did you actually read that article? Whoever wrote it comes across as a crackpot conspiracy theorist smoking highest quality Afghan herbs. Check this:

The first was the Tenerife Air Disaster, where a collision between an American (PanAm) and a Dutch (KLM) 747 was planned by the DVD and facilitated by a Luftwaffe ground radar unit. The second was the Tripoli Air Disaster, where the engines’ FADEC software was sabotaged.

As with PanAm after the DVD brought down that 747 over Lockerbie it will be a slow death.

There it is, sadly. The airline rejected my claim that MH370 was shot down, or accepted it and participated in the cover-up, took no steps whatsoever to guard against the high altitude missile threat and have now lost another 777, 295 people and probably the airline itself into the bargain.

It is likely that the attack was cleared by Kiev in advance, high up the payroll, with both Berlin and the White House. The FAA, which is penetrated and was implicated in helping to set up the Turkish Airlines DC-10 Paris Air Disaster, seems to have helped in setting up the rebels as patsies.

He seems to be obsessed with some German terrorist org he refers to as DVD and blames them for a bunch of past accidents including the Tenerife diaster, the Turkish Airlines DC-10 crash over Paris and even Lockerbie. He also seems to be sure that MH370 was shot down.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Jul 2014 04:40

http://rt.com/news/174268-ukraine-mh17-crash-putin/
Putin: Taskforce at Malaysia MH17 crash site not enough, full-scale intl team needed
Published time: July 20, 2014

The tragic Malaysian MH17 flight crash must not be politicised and the international experts on the scene should be able to carry out their work in complete safety, Russian President Vladimir Putin said.

“There are already representatives of Donetsk and Lugansk working there, as well as representatives of the emergencies ministry of Ukraine and others. But this is not enough,” Putin said officially commenting on the tragic event on Sunday.

“This task force is not enough,” Putin emphasized. “We need more, we need a fully representative group of experts to be working at the site under the guidance of ICAO, the relevant international commission.”

“We must do everything to provide security for the international experts on the site of the tragedy,” Putin stressed, adding that Russia will also do everything in its power to help shift the Ukrainian conflict from a military phase into a political discussion.

“We need to do everything to provide its [ICAO commission’s] safety, to provide the humanitarian corridors necessary for its work,” Putin added.

“In the meantime, nobody should and has no right to use this tragedy to achieve their ‘narrowly selfish’ political goals,” Putin stated.

“We repeatedly called upon all conflicting sides to stop the bloodshed immediately and sit down at the negotiating table,” the President reminded. “I can say with confidence that if military operations were not resumed on June 28 in eastern Ukraine, this tragedy wouldn’t have happened.”

According to the latest figures from the Donetsk authorities, 247 out of 298 bodies have been recovered from the crash site. OSCE confirmed that a train with bodies of the victims is being stationed at a railway station in Torez and is set to depart for Donetsk. The bodies are being kept in especially refrigerated cars.

A team of ISCE experts and four Ukrainian forensics analysts are the only experts who have so far reached the area and are working on the investigation. A team of 12 Malaysian experts is yet to arrive at the crash site. Experts from other European nations, including the Netherlands, France. Germany and the UK are en route to Donetsk.

The OSCE team has claimed that the black boxes have not been recovered, yet Aleksandr Boroday, the republic’s prime minister, told reporters that DPR might potentially be in possession of the MH17 black boxes. "What we have is just some components of the plane. We are not experts; we think that they may be black boxes but we're not sure."
1.7K

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 21 Jul 2014 05:25

Veterans Today is one of ISI propoganda website ( another was Bombay Times or something like that).

There were about 1/2 a dozen website publishing Paki propoganda material I had done WHOIS on and they all had the same Scotsdale, AZ contact info.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 21 Jul 2014 06:05

10 with India roots on jinxed jet

Statistically, one fact stands out from the passenger list of Flight MH-17 — the plane was headed to one of Asia’s busiest connecting terminals and yet had no Chinese or Indian nationals on board.

China and India, the world’s two most populous nations, together account for more than a third of the global population. The world’s third most populous nation, the US, lost one citizen whose principal — original and still held — passport was Dutch. The plane, which flew out of Amsterdam, had 192 Dutch nationals, the most from any country.

But the 44 Malaysians — the second-highest from any nation — on board included at least eight Indian-origin flyers, serving a reminder that India’s constantly expanding immigrant population means that disasters in most parts of the world today resonate in at least some homes in India.

Two of the Dutch nationals too are of Indian-Surinamese origin.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Jul 2014 06:10

When Pan Am flt 103 was brought down over Lockerbie in Scotland, United Queendom, all the pieces were collected and pieced together to deduce that it was an on board explosion that bought the aircraft down. That took a very long time.

How do people know within hours after MH 17 crashing that it was a SAM?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Jul 2014 06:16

Rony wrote:10 with India roots on jinxed jet

We now know with 420% certainty that the WTC towers had no Jews, so it was Jews that brought the towers down. Where is the proof that it was not Indians or Chinese who brought MH 17 down?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 21 Jul 2014 07:00

Because the UkBapzis have the cockpit-ATC tape making sure that their missile was detected, and hit home. I am sure they must also have read the words

Інді Chine Бхаі Бхаі
Indi Chine Bkhai Bkhai

on the side of the mijjile in neon lights.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Jul 2014 08:32

shiv wrote:When Pan Am flt 103 was brought down over Lockerbie in Scotland, United Queendom, all the pieces were collected and pieced together to deduce that it was an on board explosion that bought the aircraft down. That took a very long time.

How do people know within hours after MH 17 crashing that it was a SAM?

Good Point and that too in disputed war zone.

From US President statements made within 24 hours of Crash , A SAM fired from Ukraine held rebel areas brought down MH-17

John Kerry says the SAM was BUK and it was provided by Russia within 48 hours of Crash.

Ukraine says all the SAM has left Ukraine territory and entered Russia.

From POTUS , Kerry and Ukraine we can safely conclude within 48 hours that Russia supplied weapons operated by Rebels brought down the aircraft .......thats also the conclusion by most Western MSM atleast the US and UK ones.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 21 Jul 2014 09:44

Dipanker wrote:Veterans Today is one of ISI propoganda website ( another was Bombay Times or something like that).

There were about 1/2 a dozen website publishing Paki propoganda material I had done WHOIS on and they all had the same Scotsdale, AZ contact info.

Can you post the list on STFUP thread?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Jul 2014 10:02

Putin tells Cameron it's vital to refrain from hasty conclusions until crash probe is over

MOSCOW, July 20, 22:44 /ITAR-TASS/. In a telephone conversation with British Prime Minister David Cameron, Russian President Vladimir Putin said it was important to refrain from hasty conclusions and politicized statements until the investigation of the Malaysian Boeing-777 crash in eastern Ukraine is over, the Kremlin press service said on Sunday.

“Putin noted that the tragedy was rooted in the Ukrainian confrontation, including in the regions where the crash had taken place. The Russian side expressed its commitment and readiness to continue its assistance in organizing and conducting of a thorough international investigation of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) into all the circumstance of the catastrophe. Until it is over, it is important to refrain from any hasty judgments and politicized statements,” the press service said.

The telephone conversation was initiated by the British side.

Putin offered his condolences to Cameron over the death of British citizens who had been onboard of the ill-fated plane.

“The sides discussed the ongoing acute political crisis in Ukraine and stressed the necessity of its soonest settlement by peaceful means only. It was noted that such peace process should be supported by the international community,” the press service said.

A Boeing-777 of the Malaysian Airlines en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur crashed in July 17 in Ukraine’s eastern Donetsk Region 60 km from the Russian border, in the zone of combat operation between the Donetsk self-defence forces and the Ukrainian army. All the passengers and crewmembers onboard the plane - 298 people - died. Travelling aboard the plane were citizens of ten countries, including 192 Dutchmen and 10 British nationals.

Earlier on Sunday, Putin has a telephone conversation with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who agreed that it was important that all parties to the Ukrainian conflict ensured necessary conditions for the organization of an objective and independent international investigation of the crash.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2014 12:40

loud silence from usual suspects on what shreds of proof led them to believe the official western party line.

nor has the western warlords put anything on the table like radar or infra red track data showing the missile rising up from point X.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 21 Jul 2014 14:02

Singha wrote:loud silence from usual suspects on what shreds of proof led them to believe the official western party line.

nor has the western warlords put anything on the table like radar or infra red track data showing the missile rising up from point X.

British tabloids have already started using the N-word for Putin. There has been absolutely zero effort to explain the motivation or offer any evidence. During 26/11, even with video footage, US SD was not ready to name Pakistan. I told my colleagues in EU land, that no one outside the EU-land and N.America believe the US SD propaganda (Indian English-media-attached junta is an exception, of course).

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Jul 2014 14:11

MH17 disaster is being exploited for 'mercenary objectives', says Putin, blaming Ukrainian government for reigniting violence in the east
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 17804.html

Russian President Vladimir Putin has condemned what he says is the exploitation of MH17 for “mercenary objectives,” as rescue workers continue to plough through the remains of the downed plane and the UN Security Council prepares to vote on a resolution demanding full access to the Ukraine crash site.

In a statement posted to the Kremlin website, Mr Putin said that the crash was being manipulated by forces keen use it for their own purposes, without hinting as to who that might be.

He also said that his government supports an investigation run by a “full team of experts” working at the behest of UN agency the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO).

He criticised Ukraine for reigniting fighting with the rebels and said: "We can say with confidence that if fighting in eastern Ukraine had not been renewed on 28 June, this tragedy would not have happened.

"Nobody should or does have a right to use this tragedy for such mercenary objectives."

His comments come on the day that UN Security Council members consider an Australia-proposed resolution calling on separatists to make way for international experts, as well as a cease-fire in the vicinity.

Permanent council members will convene later this afternoon, with Australia’s foreign minister, Julie Bishop, expecting all 15 members to support the vote.

However, as a permanent member of the council, Russia has the power to veto the proposal.

The vote follows accusations that pro-Russian rebels had been looting, tampering with evidence and even removing bodies from the remnants of the Malaysia Airlines passenger jet, which carried 298 people.

Russia and Australia have been engaged in last minute negotiations, with British Ambassador to the UN, Mark Lyall Grant, accusing Russia of “tactical procrastination.”

Vitaly Churkin, Russia's UN ambassador, had said that they were concerned the draft “does not accurately reflect the need for an impartial, international investigation.”

Mr Churkin said Russia had proposed the cease fire, which Australia accepted, though it is unknown how large this area encompasses.

“It looks like a typical Russian delay in tactics, and one can guess why they want delay,” Mr Lyall Grant said.
Video: 'Terrorists take up the bodies'

A caveat of the resolution is also demanding that armed groups do not interfere with debris or victim’s remains and that “those responsible for this incident be held to account and that all states cooperate fully with efforts to establish accountability.”

Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott said his country would view a veto by Russia “very badly” as “no reasonable person” could object to its demands.

“This is still an absolutely shambolic situation. It does look more like a garden clean-up than a forensic investigation,” he said.

British Prime Minister David Cameron spoke with President Putin last night, in a conversation that Downing Street said “made clear that if Russia wants to put the blame elsewhere they would need to present compelling and credible evidence.”

Wide-reaching EU sanctions may be unfurled on Russia, it has been revealed, should Mr Putin not use his influence on the armed rebels to placate and force them to cooperate with independent crash site investigators.

European foreign ministers will be meeting in Brussels on Tuesday to discuss these possible sanctions, which could include asset freezes and travel bans on anyone deemed to be supporting the “Putin regime.”

"Damned if you do,damned if you don't".That seems to be to the West's approach to the Donetsk fighters who were overwhelmed with the crash of the MH airliner.They are not professionals in any way,either military men,medical men, or crash investigators and are doing their best in such a sad chaotic situation,where the crash site is in a conflict zone,under attack being battered by UKR forces who have used ground troops,tanks,and aircraft and helos,sabotaging an agreed upon ceasefire; with the Chocolate soldier,Poroshenko,ranting and raving about a total military victory,urged on by his US advisers from the Rand Corp,CIA,the Biden family,etc.

The facts are that the Donetsk people have tried their best to salvage the bodies preventing them from decomposition in the summer heat by using a refrigerated train,picking up the debris as best they can,cordoning off the site strewn over several kms,inspecting their bags to ascertain their identities,etc.These have most unfairly been called "stealing belongings,tampering with bodies and evidence,etc.,etc., by the US and western interests".Veep Joe Biden even claimed that the aircraft "exploded in the air",immediately after the crash even before any debris had been discovered or analysed! The latest video clip showing Donetsk fighters and their initial shock and horror at what they found just minutes after the crash,shows that they had no clue as to what had happened. The Western ingrates and rabble rousers,war mongers like the new Brtish Def. Min. who by crudely threatening Putin to "leave eastern Ukraine" as if it belonged to HM the Queen ,CaMoron and co.,in trying to appear "macho" is a worthy successor to a Monty Python character,perhaps the heir to John Cleese!

When there is still not a shred of evidence linking the shooting of the aircraft to either Russia or pro-Russian forces who do NOT operate the BUK missile,for the hypocritical US whose warship the Vincennes shot down an Iranian civilian Airbus years ago and decorated the captain instead of court-martialling him,are like rapists accusing the victim instead! We all know how the perpetrators of the Bhopal Gas disaster ,the world's worst industrial disaster have been protected by the US.

http://rt.com/news/173932-no-weapons-cr ... ia-border/
Moscow: No Buk missile systems or other weapons crossed Russia-Ukraine border
Published time: July 18,

The Russian Defense Ministry has said that neither the Buk missile defense system, nor any other military equipment, has crossed the Russian border into Ukraine.

Such border crossings “can’t be performed in secrecy,” the official representative for the Russian Defense Ministry told journalists in Moscow.

Earlier, the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) alleged that it has proof the self-defense forces in eastern Ukraine received a Buk anti-aircraft missile system with a crew from Russia.

Malaysian flight MH17 “was shot down by a missile from the Buk-M air defense system, which was transferred from the territory of Russia,” said Valentin Nalivaychenko, SBU head, without elaborating on the evidence.

Shortly after the Thursday’s tragedy, Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko addressed the nation, saying that what happened to the Malaysian MH17 flight was “a terrorist act.”

The statement came before Kiev launched an investigation into the crash to determine what exactly happened to the Malaysian jet.

The Russian Defense Ministry spokesman also denied statements by the Ukrainian side, which announced the detention of two “spotters for Buk anti-aircraft missile systems” on its territory, who were Russian citizens.

“We should clarify that such specialists as spotters are used only for those weapons systems, which are aimed at engaging ground-based targets,” he said.

Buk is a family of self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air missile systems developed by the former USSR and Russia to engage targets at an engagement altitude of 11,000-25,000 meters depending on the model.

Previously, the Russian Defense Ministry said that a Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft missile battery was operational in the area in the Donetsk Region where the Malaysian plane crashed.

Ukrainian Buk battery radar was operational when Malaysian plane downed - Moscow

“The Russian equipment detected throughout July 17 the activity of a Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla [a village some 30km south of Donetsk],” the ministry said in a statement.

According to the Russian side, the Ukrainian military has deployed several Buk batteries, with at least 27 launchers, capable of bringing down high-flying jets, in the Donetsk Region.

The Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 carrying almost 300 people on board crashed on Thursday as it was flying over Ukraine’s Donetsk Region, the scene of heavy fighting between the Ukrainian military and local self-defense forces.

habal · Post by **habal** » 21 Jul 2014 14:18

Officially the death of world media occured in 2004, lies that began with Iraq war and embedded journalism. MH370 and MH17 are final nail on the coffin.

the ukrainian military jets that were flying besides the MH17 (if true, and in all likelihood is true) were actually baiting the Russian missile systems on ground to fire at them and once the missiles were launched the military jets just split away leaving the big fat whale to be hit.

Or else a very clever move to target Putin, instead decided to make MH17 sacrificial lamb instead.

there are too many possibilities here and thus the western oligarchy-backed media is trying its best to obfuscate by issuing maximum sound bytes as possible and some puppet politicians from US are also screaming murder at Putin.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Jul 2014 14:22

Abe vows dialogue with Putin, taking a softer line than the West over Ukraine jet

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe pledged to continue dialogue with Russian President Vladimir Putin, taking a softer line with Moscow than some Western powers after the shooting down of a passenger jet over Ukraine.

Abe has worked to improve Japan’s relations with resource-rich Russia, a centerpiece of his foreign policy.

“Russia should commit constructively to various international issues as a responsible state. To help that I will continue dialogue with President Putin,” Abe said in a speech carried by Japanese media.

“Any conflict should be solved not by power but by diplomatic means based on international law,” he said.

Ukraine has accused Russia and pro-Moscow rebels of destroying evidence to cover up their guilt in the shooting down of the Malaysia Airlines jet that has intensified a showdown between the Kremlin and Western powers.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Jul 2014 17:24

The Downing Of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17: 5 Things You Need To Know

1) The evidence currently points overwhelmingly at the rebels

As of yet there is no hard evidence that conclusively establishes a particular party’s guilt. That level of proof will only be reached after experts have had a chance to examine the wreckage, if it is ever reached at all. With that being said, the pro-Russian rebels are certainly acting as if they have something to hide. The rebels are currently conducting an active purge of the social media sites on which they had earlier bragged of downing a Ukrainian transport plane and their spokespeople are furiously denying that they had the means to shoot down a plane at such a high altitude. It’s not a particularly sophisticated campaign (simply deleting a tweet doesn’t make it disappear if it’s already been shared hundreds of time) and it has a certain desperation to it. So while it is technically still possible that the Ukrainian armed forces were responsible, after all they do have a spotty track record when it comes to civilian airliners, the odds that it was the rebels are huge and growing.

2) You should still be suspicious of the Ukrainian government, particularly its security services

Almost immediately after MH 17 went down, the Security Service of Ukraine (which is usually referred to by its Ukrainian abbreviation of SBU) released several YouTube clips of conversations between separatists in which they discuss the downing of a civilian airliner. These recordings quickly made the rounds on the internet and were approvingly shared by well-regarded journalists like Anne Applebaum. The simple fact, though, is that the SBU is a former part of the KGB and its claims should therefore be treated with extreme skepticism. Throughout the crisis the SBU has repeatedly made claims, for example it had captured “dozens” of Russian intelligence and military officers, that have proven to be untrue. Basically, given its history as an organization and its recent track record, you should extend to the SBU the same level of trust that you extent to the Russian FSB.

3) The investigation has gotten off to the worst start imaginable

While the Russians, the Ukrainians, and even the rebels initially promised to cooperate with a “full and fair” investigation, the reality has been a lot uglier. The rebels running security at the crash site have not only been highly unprofessional (e.g. reeking of alcohol) they’ve been actively hindering the investigation. One rebel even shot over the heads of an OSCE delegation after they momentarily wandered out of the area they were “supposed” to be in. There’s so much international attention focused on the story that it’s possible these problems will eventually be resolved, but some of the most important investigative work takes place in the immediate aftermath of an aviation disaster and that work is simply not taking place. One can hope for the best, but it’s entirely possible that the initial delays in allowing trained specialists access to the site will permanently compromise the investigation.

4) The missile that was used was not a “sophisticated piece of technology” but an aging Soviet-era dinosaur

Lots of people, including some very senior officials in the Obama administration like Samantha Power, have repeatedly emphasized the “sophistication” of the SA-11 missile system, commonly referred to as the “Buk.” This is very strange. The SA-11 is hardly a cutting-edge piece of technology, as it was developed by the Soviet Union in the 1970′s. You read that correctly, the Buk was designed and first built while Leonid Brezhnev was premier of the Soviet Union. The average smart phone has more processing power than an SA-11 battery, and even the Ukrainian army has more advanced anti-aircraft weapons in its arsenal. The fact that a missile is old doesn’t make it any less deadly, but the simple fact is that the Buk is old and outdated. This technology has been around for a very long time and has been used by armies, like the Soviet Union’s, with generally low level of troop training. It just does not take a world-class military to operate such a system.

5) This is turning into an PR catastrophe for the Russian government

If, as currently seems overwhelmingly likely, MH17 was brought down by rebels fighting against the Ukrainian government Russia is going to have a spotlight shined on some of its most unsavory behavior. Over the past several months Russia have been covertly and not-so-covertly supporting the rebels in Eastern Ukraine in their struggle against Kiev. Outside of Washington DC, Russia has so far managed to largely avoid any negative repercussions for this behavior. The downing of MH17 will change that. What had previously been of concern only to the, relatively small, number of think tankers and analysts studying the region will now become front page news across the entire planet. If it turns out that the pro-Russia rebels have the blood of hundreds of innocent civilians on their hands, Russia’s position on Ukraine will become increasingly untenable. I’ve written before that Russia’s “isolation” is largely a myth, but if Russia starts to become associated with “shooting civilian airliners out of the sky” that could change very quickly.

Follow me on Twitter @MarkAdomanis or on Facebook

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Jul 2014 18:21

Some inputs from Russian Military today

Ukrainian Su-25 fighter detected in close approach to MH17 before crash - Russian military

The Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the MH17 Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. Kiev must explain why the military jet was tracking the passenger airplane, the Russian Defense Ministry said.

“A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it’s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,” said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow on Monday.

“[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,” he stated.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Jul 2014 18:29

Two possibilities

Su-25 was a bait for Rebels to Shoot it Down but ended hitting the 777
Su-25 with AAM shot down the 777

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 21 Jul 2014 19:13

Can u carry a BUK warhead on a missile mounted under a SU-25? I would think yes, but if so, that pilot's life is not worth a paisa any more, the UkBapzis would have killed that witness.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 21 Jul 2014 19:16

Russia responds with some comments and questions:
Comments:

•RUSSIA SAYS U.S. SATELLITE FLEW OVER MH17 AT TIME IT WAS DOWNED... which would provide all the proof needed to show who is responsible - so why hasn't the US explained this or shown it?
•RUSSIA ASKS U.S. FOR EVIDENCE ROCKET FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA
•RUSSIA: NO U.S. PROOF THAT MISSILE FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA
•DEFENCE MINISTRY SAYS RUSSIA DID NOT DELIVER ANY SA-11 BUK MISSILE SYSTEMS TO SEPARATISTS IN EASTERN UKRAINE "OR ANY OTHER WEAPONS"

Questions:

1. Ukrainian authorities immediately identified the militia as the perpetrators of the tragedy. What is the basis of such findings?
2. Could official Kiev to report all the details of using [BUKs] in a war zone? Most importantly - why these systems are deployed there, as the militia no planes?
3. What are the causes of inactivity of Ukrainian authorities on the formation of an international commission? When such a committee will work?
4. Are the armed forces of Ukraine international experts to present papers on accounting for missiles, air-to-air and ground-to-air ammo and anti-aircraft missiles?
5. Whether these funds objective control on the movement of the Ukrainian Air Force aircraft on the day of the tragedy brought international commission?
6. Why Ukrainian air traffic controllers allowed deviation of the route of the aircraft to the north side of the "anti-terrorist operation zone"?
7. Why was not completely closed to civilian aircraft airspace over the combat zone, especially because in this area there was no solid field of radar navigation?
8. Could official Kiev to comment on reports in the net, ostensibly on behalf of the Spanish air traffic controllers working in Ukraine, which shot down over the territory of Ukraine "Boeing" was accompanied by two Ukrainian military aircraft?
9. Why Security Service of Ukraine has begun without international representatives work with recordings of talks with Ukrainian crew dispatchers "Boeing" and Ukrainian radar data?
10. How were the lessons from previous similar disasters Russian Tu-154 in 2001 in the Black Sea? Then the leaders of Ukraine until the last minute denied any involvement of the Armed Forces of the country to the tragedy until irrefutable evidence showed no guilt official Kiev.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 21 Jul 2014 19:27

The rebels were afraid of being baited by the Ukrainian government using military aircraft in close proximity to civilian airliners flying overhead to provoke the rebels to use SAM's to shoot at the military aircraft and instead hit the airliner. The youtube video uploaded on June 18 by a rebel speaks of that...look for 1.10 onwards. Looks like the Ukrainian government got its wish with MH17. You can turn on English captions in this video. Malaysia Flight MH17 May Have Been Escorted By Ukrainian Su-27 Fighter Jets

Read more: http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/21/su-27s-escorted-mh17/#ixzz3878rzvhh

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2014 19:54

The su27 no doubt has eqpt to indicate its being painted by Russian,origin engagement radars and deftly make a move out.

that would be bait and murder with kiev complicity.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Jul 2014 04:30

It is increasingly likely with the new evidence that this tragedy was a diabolic false flag op by the UKR regime acting in concert with its principal sponsor which was off the block even before the starter's pistol was fired.

Ukrainian Su-25 fighter detected in close approach to MH17 before crash - Moscow
Published time: July 21, 2014
http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plan ... a-ukraine/

“A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it’s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,” said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow on Monday.

“[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,” he stated.

“The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification,” he added. “It’s equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure.”

The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated.

At the moment of the MH17 crash an American satellite was flying over the area of eastern Ukraine, according to Russia’s Defense Ministry. It urged the US to publish the space photos and data captured by it.

‘Ukrainian Buk missile system transported to militia-held area’

In addition, MH17 crashed within the operating zone of the Ukrainian army’s self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air ‘Buk’ missile systems, the Russian general said.

“We have space images of certain places where the Ukraine’s air defense was located in the southeast of the country,” Kartapolov noted.

The first three shots that were shown by the general are dated July 14. The images show Buk missile launch systems in about 8km northwest of the city of Lugansk – a TELAR and two TELs, according to the military official.
Another image shows a radar station near Donetsk.

Radar stations of the air defense in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

Radar stations of the air defense in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

While the third picture shows the location of the air defense systems near Donetsk, he explained. In particular, one can clearly see a TELAR launcher and about 60 military and auxiliary vehicles, tents for vehicles and other structures, he elaborated.

Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

“Images from this area were also made on July 17. One should notice that the missile launcher is absent [from the scene]. Image number five shows the Buk missile system in the morning of the same day in the area of settlement Zaroschinskoe – 50km south of Donetsk and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk," the Kartapolov said

No Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

No Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

Buk missile defense units in Zaroschinskoe, 50km south of Donetsk city and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

Buk missile defense units in Zaroschinskoe, 50km south of Donetsk city and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry

The question that has to be answered is why the missile system appeared in the area controlled by the local militia forces shortly before the catastrophe, he stated.

Images taken on July 18 show that the missile systems left the area of the MH17 crash, the military official said.

Kartapolov also pointed to the fact that on the day of the plane crash Ukraine’s military increased activity on the part of Ukraine’s Kupol-M1 9S18 radars, which are part of the Buk system.

"..there were 7 radars operating on July 15, 8 radars operating on July 16, and 9 radars operating on July 17 in the area. Then, starting with July 18, the intensity of radar activities radically decreased, and now there are no more than two or three radars operating a day. The reason behind this is yet to be found."

In response to Moscow’s evidence, Kiev said on Monday it had proof the missile that brought down a Malaysian airliner last week came from Russia.

"There is evidence that the missile which struck the plane was fired by terrorists, who received arms and specialists from the Russian Federation," spokesman for Ukraine's Security Council Andrey Lysenko told a news conference. "To disown this tragedy, [Russia] are drawing a lot of pictures and maps. We will explore any photos and other plans produced by the Russian side."

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said on Monday that Kiev has “strong evidence” of the causes of the MH17 crash.

“We know exactly the place [the surface-to-air missile was] launched, we know exactly the place where it hit the civilian plane and the place where the plane crashed.”

Kiev is ready to hand the information to the international investigation commission, according to the presidential press-service.

Vriksh · Post by **Vriksh** » 22 Jul 2014 05:57

so it is possible that the Su-25 to have shot down MH17 using R60/Guns after mistaking it for Putin's Antonov which was by some accounts in the same vicinity. The BUK/SAM theory is a coverup for the above?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jul 2014 07:34

the shootdown occurred in daylight. only a dumb pilot would mistake the 2-engined 777 for Putin's 4-engine plane.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2014 08:05

Nice Read

10 more questions Russian military pose to Ukraine, US over MH17 crash