Perspectives on the global economic changes

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svinayak
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by svinayak »

udaym wrote: If that $60 bn that we sent overseas to support foreign economies, were deployed at home creating road, infrastructure in the form of state/local debt which pays investment returns to its citizens, it can change the economy dramatically while creating tons of jobs.
Indian govt can easliy create Infra Bonds based on Gold deposit with a return which is better than Gold price appreciation.

This can raise easliy 50B in capital each year.

Once the global currency system is reset then the Indian people can convert their investment to Indian RUpee for investment and income.
svinayak
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by svinayak »

Liu wrote: BTW, until india were powerful enough to lead one powerful alternative to UN, P5 could never accept india as a new veto~holder of UNSC.
If PRC govt thinks that current UNSC has any value and importance then it is the most stupid govt.
In the age of economic and currency geo practice such institutions dont play much part.
Neshant
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Neshant »

svinayak wrote: Once the global currency system is reset then the Indian people can convert their investment to Indian RUpee for investment and income.
Once the global currency system is reset, all savers will realise they have been cheated.

People will be rushing to convert out of not into paper currencies.
chanakyaa
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by chanakyaa »

Once the global currency system is reset then the Indian people can convert their investment to Indian RUpee for investment and income
...
Once the global currency system is reset, all savers will realise they have been cheated.
...
Hope there are enough warning signs and red flash light for some time, so I can put opposite trade.

In the meantime, fools (I mean experts) at prestigious universities are talking about eliminating hard currencies altogether so they can charge negative interest rates.

Costs and benefits to phasing out paper currency
This paper explores the costs and benefits to phasing out paper currency, beginning with large-denomination notes, later extending to all but small coins and bills, and eventually those as well. It is hardly a simple issue; paper currency is deeply ingrained in the public’s image of government and country, and any attempt to change long-standing monetary conventions raises a host of complex issues. The symbolic value of the euro, for example, as a flag for nascent European Institutions, is hard to overstate. Nevertheless, it is important to ask whether currency in paper form has outlived its usefulness. Credit and debit cards today are increasingly being used for even small transactions. And although today’s crypto-currencies fall far short of being true currencies – for one thing their prices are simply too volatile – the underlying technologies may ultimately strengthen the menu of electronic payments options.
Liu
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Liu »

svinayak wrote:
Liu wrote: BTW, until india were powerful enough to lead one powerful alternative to UN, P5 could never accept india as a new veto~holder of UNSC.
If PRC govt thinks that current UNSC has any value and importance then it is the most stupid govt.
In the age of economic and currency geo practice such institutions dont play much part.
case is that

unless India could set up/lead a alternative to UN and disable UNSC, P5 would never take it serious to give a veto of UNSC to India.

of course.
Once India could disable UNSC by setting up/leading a alternative to UNSC, India would not think the veto of UNSC as valuable as India does now.


so, all are up to india's power and mighty ,instead of the will of P5.
if india were mighty enough, the world would ask india to lead the world ,even if india were not ready to lead the world.

when india were not mighty enough, the world would not think india deserve the honor of world leaders ,such as veto of UNSC, even if india are struggle for it.


CHina's try to set up/lead AIIB(Asia infrastructrue investment bank) is a a good example for india to struggle for more say in the word.
now, China economy is the global largest economy(by PPP) or the second largeste economy(by GDP), but USA/Japan still refuse to give more "SAY" of ADB (Asia developement bank) to CHina.
CHina now doesn't beg USA/Japan any more,but set up AIIB,a alternative to ADB.
so, ADB has to face a huge challenge----if USA/JApan keep on refusing to give more "say" of ADB to CHina, ADB would be replaced by AIIB gradually,which is heavily funded by CHina. ADB might become a useless instition,just as the league of nation became useless after UN was set up.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by panduranghari »

udaym wrote: Panduranghariji, I get the overall gold story. But this voracious appetite of Gold may have unintended consequences as explained in the following points. I'm not economist, so just the personal views...

Some numbers first.

- India imported $58 billion worth of gold in the fiscal year ending March 31 2012, up from $38 billion in the previous fiscal.
- Together oil and gold imports make up an estimated 70 percent of the country’s trade deficit
- India’s household gold consumption has gone up from $19 billion in 2009 to $45 billion in 2011
- 50 percent in imports of gold and other precious metals in the first three quarters of this year (2011-2012)

Now the unintended consequences in my view (some influenced by publicly stated views of others)
1. India is a net importer, and top international buyer of gold. When average Indian buys gold at the jewelry story, on a net basis, that gold was brought in from Africa or Australia or one of those gold exporters. Indians turn in their personal savings (Rupees) to someone who converts it into dollars from Indian Govt to buy gold from overseas. Govt loses its dollar reserves in exchange for a 10% import duties.

2. Demand of gold supports gold miners, producers, land owners, state and local governments "overseas". It creates jobs overseas, creates and supports mining and other earth moving large equipment producers, and also need for and use of newer technologies. The gold production overseas is in part funded by large debt market which support investment banks, stock markets. Every future cash flow is naturally levered, which again goes backing the banking system. None of this helps India, or Indians who are simple buyer of an end product.

3. Foreign Govts Taxation: All the gold production activities abroad are taxed at the corporate level. These taxes unlike in India, are systematically paid and distributed in those countries from country, state, and local municipality levels which further support local schools, hospitals, and infrastructure.

4. Paper Gold: Gold has led to the creation of modern "Paper Gold" and other variants in the stock market in the form of ETFs. Bulk of this financial paper is created and traded outside of India. India as one of the top buyer of gold indirectly supports "Paper Gold" by supporting the prices. Unfortunately, India does not benefit from all the paper gold transactions outside its boundaries.

5. In spite of being the top buyer of Gold, India can't enforce the use of Rupee as a currency of exchange. None of the commodities exchanges in India have any control over the pricing of the metal or its variants.

One a gold biscuit, bar, or jewelry is purchase, the story sadly ends there.
If that $60 bn that we sent overseas to support foreign economies, were deployed at home creating road, infrastructure in the form of state/local debt which pays investment returns to its citizens, it can change the economy dramatically while creating tons of jobs.
Let me surmise. You are wondering - why we as a common man are buying gold rather than do what south koreans did - sell gold to government to defend currency against speculators and also contribute to developing infrastructure within India? Why are we sending billions of dollars overseas and getting something actually worthless lump of metal which really does nothing?

Let me give you an image-

Image

First and foremost is the apparent misunderstanding of the differences between money and credit. At times, they may appear to have the same characteristics. At other times they act completely opposite from one another. As an economy is expanding, an increase in the total amount of credit would appear to have the same effect as an increase in physical rupees because credit is widely accepted as an equal to money. In a sense, they are the same. They are both "fiduciary media" (in english they are both a representation of something else, rather than having intrinsic value themselves). But when the economy is contracting, the prospect of default is thrown into the equation. When this happens, money increases in value relative to credit. Money is more valuable than credit because in the event of default, the physical rupee holders are king. Yes, the indian Govt. or any govt. could default on it's obligations. Holders of government bonds would get a big, fat zero, while holders of physical currency would still have a claim. In effect, they act similar to a preferred share as opposed to common stock. They are a step above in terms of priority.

Physical currency (M0) is farther down on the inverse pyramid than the higher M's, and certainly farther down than debt like TBills, GILTS, Bonds and WAYYYYYYYYYYYY BELOW Stocks and shares. And during an asset deflation, capital flows down the pyramid. In deflation "Cash is King". But the question is what is really the "cash" that statement is referring to? or the 60 billion dollars you mention? What is really the bottom of that inverse pyramid that capital is striving for? Is it government paper? Or is it still the old foundation, gold?

In the inverse pyramid, each level you go up is essentially a derivative of the lower levels. And during expansionary times those derivatives yield a little more than the lower levels. That is why capital climbs during the good times. But when PRINCIPLE is destroyed, this dwarfs the meager benefits of a yield and the capital scurries down the ladder to safety. Safety of .......?

It is true that the prices the financial journalists we follow are heavily driven by speculators in the paper markets for gold. But what you are missing is that real physical gold is not an inflation hedge, it is simply a wealth reserve. And it is a wealth reserve that will survive and prosper even through the nuclear annihilation of paper assets. It is a hedge against the collapse of the system. This, and the official control of the gold price as presented by GATA, are the reasons the price of gold stagnated through the 80's and 90's. But that era is over now. We are entering a new era.

JOhn Hathway wrote this in 1999
Think about this great business idea for a minute. Let's borrow some surplus stuff and sell it for whatever we can get. We'll buy a futures contract to get it back at some certain future date, so we're covered. Meanwhile, we'll earn an interest spread plus commissions. While we're at it, let's sell puts and calls against the stuff even if we don't have it on hand. Our mathematical models will guarantee that our position is always neutral, and we'll clean up on commissions, interest and other fees on the options too.

The foregoing approximates the rationale of the present day, little-known gold derivatives pyramid. John Exter, a famous gold analyst almost two generations ago, was the first to suggest that gold related to paper assets in the form of a pyramid. He described the relationship of gold to paper assets as an inverse pyramid balanced on trust. Currency at one time was a gold derivative. Government issue was backed by physical gold held by central banks. Because currency was a claim on gold, it was in effect a short position against a physical asset that was relatively easy to calculate. Governments hated the idea because they could never seem to stop issuing new paper. Even the pretense of a link has been long abandoned. Since currencies no longer have gold backing, and the world still appears to function, nouveau central bankers assert that gold is superfluous.

The gold derivatives pyramid is a vigorous free market creature. It cannot be put down with a simple declaration that the paper is no longer redeemable in gold, as governments did with currency. It is a short selling scheme that has become a trap from which few short sellers will escape. Paper claims in the form of derivatives far exceed the underlying physical metal on which they are based. The trust, which balances this new pyramid, is based on false assumptions and lack of information. Paper gold claims have proliferated at a pace rivaling any government printing press. A surfeit of paper gold has driven down the price of the physical on which it is based.
The inevitable question to ask is - will dollar or rupee collapse?

It is all about the flow of capital. You will notice that the dollar(or any currency like rupee) is at the bottom of the inverse pyramid, right above gold. So as capital flows down the dollar certainly sees a rally. But that will be short lived. WE ARE SEEING THE DOLLAR RALLY. We are seeing it, unless you choose not to see it. You see, the dollar is not the true foundation of the pyramid and it is neither an asset nor real money. It is merely a "symbolic currency". And as such, its value can be EASILY controlled by the Fed. We have seen enough hints of this. It is not decades away, it is happening right now. Sure, it is true that we need dollars to pay off our debts we have incurred. That is because it is legal tender for the purchases we undertook in USD. But we don't need to store our extra wealth in dollars. That would be silly. And MANY those who understand this don't either. That would be even more silly. And the higher levels on the pyramid have simply become too dangerous for storage of wealth right now. So there is really only one place for capital to flow to. Gold!

Please do come back with any critique.

Rejoinder;

http://zirpqe.wordpress.com/

Money is stored labor. Labor is part of human life.
To devalue money is to debase life itself.
chanakyaa
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by chanakyaa »

Thanks for a detailed post. Seems like the bulk of it is influenced by FOFOA, which is fantastic read, as always. You have touched on many areas, and I hope to get to those eventually in bits and pieces.
....
Let me surmise. You are wondering - why we as a common man are buying gold rather than do what south koreans did - sell gold to government to defend currency against speculators and also contribute to developing infrastructure within India? Why are we sending billions of dollars overseas and getting something actually worthless lump of metal which really does nothing?
I wasn't really referring to defending the currency (i.e. Rupee), but there is nothing wrong with supporting/defending your currency, because it is merely a conceptual representation of a claim on tangible/intangible that belongs to country or its people.
....
It is true that the prices the financial journalists we follow are heavily driven by speculators in the paper markets for gold. But what you are missing is that real physical gold is not an inflation hedge, it is simply a wealth reserve. And it is a wealth reserve that will survive and prosper even through the nuclear annihilation of paper

It is all about the flow of capital. You will notice that the dollar(or any currency like rupee) is at the bottom of the inverse pyramid, right above gold. So as capital flows down the dollar certainly sees a rally. But that will be short lived. WE ARE SEEING THE DOLLAR RALLY. We are seeing it, unless you choose not to see it. You see, the dollar is not the true foundation of the pyramid and it is neither an asset nor real money. It is merely a "symbolic currency". And as such, its value can be EASILY controlled by the Fed. We have seen enough hints of this. It is not decades away, it is happening right now. Sure, it is true that we need dollars to pay off our debts we have incurred. That is because it is legal tender for the purchases we undertook in USD. But we don't need to store our extra wealth in dollars. That would be silly. And MANY those who understand this don't either. That would be even more silly. And the higher levels on the pyramid have simply become too dangerous for storage of wealth right now. So there is really only one place for capital to flow to. Gold!
....
No disagreements here. It is correct that people are and should be free to choose to save (represent) their excess possessions (whether time, land, food, other belongings) in any material or conceptual (i.e. currency) form such as Gold, Silver, Rupees, Euros, Yuan etc., and also choose leverage point (i.e. moving up or down the John Exter's Inverse Pyramid). Hoping the choice involves low transaction and storage cost. In my post I was referring to and hopefully better understand one of those specific choices which Indians have made, i.e. with respect to import of 50% of gold.

After paying 10% (approx) duties, Rupees are converted to Dollars and sent abroad to purchase yellow metal. Approximately, $60bn (equivalent Rupees) of liquidity is taken out of India's banking system and converted to yellow metal majority of which is "consumed" (i.e. kept for personal use). Gold imported from some overseas miner is dug out of mines which otherwise had little value (like barren deserts of Australia), now creates jobs overseas, promotes technology; without adding much at home. And, what did Indian get in exchange? Better inflation hedge? And, what did country get?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by panduranghari »

Satoshi Nakamoto invented the bit coin. And now people like John Mauldin, Grant Williams ( both are close to the people in power in USA) are becoming very pro-bitcoin.

Bitcoin is mining using computational powers, thus extremely energy intensive. I have not heard an argument like - 'creates jobs overseas, promotes technology; without adding much at home'. If bitcoin is considered open source free market innovation, why is it expected to fulfil a job anything more than what it set out to be.

Why gold?

Who sets standards and why is gold an important element in the international economics?

All throughout the early times, prior to BCE and into CE, people didn't see the gold coins as we think of money today. These various gold coins had tremendous value, but they were just gold pieces. They were wealth for trade like everything else was.. That's simple logic, I know, but the vessel of oil, for instance was just as tradable as a gold coin. In fact, within most of the medium sizes city states of that era, barter of like goods was just as good or better than gold coin. One's life was better if he owned wealth he used.

Humans of that period didn't live all that long a time span. Even though some accounts prove otherwise, the majority of life went by rather quickly. If you were a regular part of society in general, your wealth was what you had and consumed during those short days. There were no banks or investment houses and the average person's return on a wealth unit was his length of use and it's quality of life enhancement. More to the point, this logic made these guys spenders of gold, rather than savers! If you had gained gold in trade, for your services or goods supplied, you had no reason to save it. There was no other money that needed to be hedged against value loss.

It's becoming more and more apparent that average people of that time quickly traded (spent) their gold for something useful of value, for both them and their family. They didn't have the excess we know today. In modern nomenclature; this logic dictates that a much smaller amount of gold money circulated and circulated faster than many supposed. All forms of jewlery and art objects were in the same situation.

For longer savings, even for those of above average means that had all they wanted, people tended to spend their most valuable gold coins first, while saving the least valuable (bronze, silver, iron) for emergencies and later use. To us, today this sounds strange, but place yourself in that time. It was better to build your most useful and needed store of things while times were good.

Therefore, you traded the gold, which brought the most equal trade, first. If things got so bad that one had to dig up the stash, you were trading for last ditch things anyway. Kind of like wrapping up and burying X to get Y. This use of lower metal is suported. Remember, lots of things served as money objects them. Even much later, in the CE, it was common in the world to trade big iron bricks that were forged as a bull. It's use was in trade for "one bull" or something of that animal's value.

This tends to explain why so many hordes of lesser quality, non gold coins are always being found today. Roman silver, bronze, iron, copper coins are very common in digs at various archaeological sites in southern India. The classic belief is that all the gold was found, melted down and recast. But that action just didn't fit the whole profile of life's need back then. The majority of gold in average and even upper hands was always on the move, in trade or payment for service. Each succession of ruler, simply reused the old coins or melted them down and restruck with a new image. And new gold was minted only if it was easy to find. Especially stolen jewlery. Mined gold was a very last resort.

Remember, real useful goods crowded a rich ruler's house, too and these were just as valuable and tradable as gold. Besides, far too many finds have come up with jewelry and no coins to suggest some robbery by thieves sold the coins to new rulers with melting pots. The gold would have been taken whether coin or art.

Taxes were paid in goods, service or coin (preferably gold) and regular people knew it. Far better to trade your gold and save your wealth in a bulky form so the tax man's take at least has a chance of taking less than enough. To store your wealth in gold and risk him finding and taking it all was just not acceptable.

The great gold stores we have found almost always point to their being the reserves of a rich ruling class. Just like modern billionaires, after too much comes excess and gold was the only alternative for someone with guards and regular army.

More and more evidence is mounting that the largest portion of gold, during this early period was, "On The Road"! The perception that every person had some portion of gold as savings is blunted by their lack of need for such wealth. Gold was needed and used to spend "On The Road" more so than in local domains. Whether for armies or traveling merchants, gold moved more than it was saved. Even gold in the form of art was "fair game" for the regular people to use as a tradable medium. In fact it was just as likely used as money "on The Road" as coins. This further explains the findings of small amounts of jewelry in most of the locations where small towns were located.

We can further conclude that gold was much harder to find and utilize, back then than many supposed. Yes, great amounts were around, but the reality was that these amounts were perhaps 1/2 or less than many others conclude. Simply because finding or producing gold meant displacing labor that could be making barter able goods of equal value. Besides, gold that was in trade, was valuable enough that what existed mostly covered it's need in long distance commerce. This further points to a much greater value for a much lesser amount of gold while it was used during this period.

When evaluating lifestyle wealth, back them, many often find themselves comparing things in a relative mode with today's perspective. In this position we think the mark has been far missed for gold worth. It's possible that gold payment, in these early times amounted to a hugh premium compared to today. The various goods and lifestyle conditions in existence, indicate a much higher relative worth for their goods of daily life. Thereby giving gold a much greater relative worth within one's life also. If a one stater Darius of gold, from Cyrus of Persia was worth a very valuable vessel of oil, why utilize the effort to find gold just to trade for some oil. Better to skip the gold production and make the oil. This was the norm for thinking by people not trading on the road, living "within local" city states. This was similar to how Chatrapati Shivaji found huge hoard of gold in Torana fort. This contributed immensely to the establishment of Hindavi Swaraj and the Maratha Navy. Indeed, outside the need to pay armies, a much smaller amount of gold did the job much better than us modern thinkers thought was necessary. Further, the use of overseas warfare and trade perhaps lost more gold into the ocean than we will ever know. The oft heard statement by roman Caesars was the draining of gold from Rome into the coffers of India is not lies.

Consider these possibilities well. In that gold today is in a much lesser existence, compared to modern goods supply and lifestyle enhancements, when comparing it to it's value in life in the past. It's true worth as a wealth medium could be a 1,000 times higher!

Some love the idea of gold standard. Clearly they have not thought things through. Gold standard- I ask again "who sets the standard?"

UK did until 1912 as they had a huge empire then US took over because Europe was embroiled in a war of attrition through 1918. Of course Bretton woods was an attempt to formalise the move away from fixed exchange rates, the hijacking lead to the disbandment of gold standard by Nixon on 15 aug 1971. Where are we now?

On the verge of explosive price of physical gold unconstrained by paper gold.

Imagine with me a three stage rocket which has just launched to take us to our next level of stasis and equilibrium. In the first stage of this ride, the fractional reserve paper market for gold will break up and all the existing gold demand will rush from paper into physical. These are the "gold bugs" that were fooled into paper promises. This stage represents a newfound equilibrium between already existing supply (physical gold) and demand (all gold investors). You can do your own calculation of the ratio of paper gold to physical, but I will tell you it is not small.

The second stage of this rocket ride begins as the first stage propellant (paper gold market) is jettisoned. During this second stage we will witness the massive force of trillions of dollars as dollar reserve holders all over the world bid on rising physical gold as there will be not much else for them to do with their dollars at that point.

As the first stage brought "the gold market" into equilibrium, this second stage will bring "the dollar" into equilibrium, as it finally reaches a depth of value to match its long term history of over-creation - 50 years worth!

The third and final stage of the rocket ride could be called "the momentum effect". Seeing the first two stages in full swing, everyone else will rush out of any paper asset still liquid enough to obtain even a tiny amount of gold. And with this stage will come the hyperinflation in the prices of all other real goods as the US Fed frantically prints more dollars to pay the government's nominal obligations in addition to its hyperinflating daily expenses.

This printing response will add fuel to "the momentum effect" stage rocketing it from what would normally be a bubble into a sustainable rise which will only plateau once the madness ends.

And may I remind you, the madness has only just begun.

When things finally settle down, we will enter a new era of equilibrium. Some things will remain the same while others will have changed forever. Here are just a few of the changes I imagine.

Gold will trade in physical form only. No longer will the owners of gold trust the custodianship of foreign nations.

Fiat currencies will still function in trade and as a unit of account, repositioned at their new values, wherever debt is required. But they will have to undergo a process of credibility re-establishment, much like a bankrupt individual, before they will ever again be used by people as a reliable store of value.

For producing individuals and nations alike, gold will become the wealth reserve of choice for the preservation of purchasing power earned through productive labor. Believe it or not, I think that our freshly neutered governments will support this development as they will ultimately view it as the only means to slowly rebuild what has been lost, in a sustainable way.

So there it is UdayM ji. The way I see it.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by chanakyaa »

Thanks for a detailed post.

I'm glad we are talking about BitCoin in this context. Don't you think that BitCoin should rightly deserve and is in fact getting attention on its own merit, regardless of what celebrities including Mauldin's of the world have to say? Bit coins reflect a deep human desire to own something (tangible or intangible) that is unique, has positive association, broadly desired, and least likely debased by others, as a store of value. Naturally, such things, like centuries old arts pieces, retain value over time because they can not be duplicated (except fraud) and it maintains the desirability over very long periods.

Let me restate my point on Indian's importing of Gold ($50-60bn) with respect to job creation, taxation, etc. Yes, Bit coins can be minted using high powered computers and lots of electricity, the same way new Gold can be minted (mined) using equipment, energy, and people. My understanding of Bit coins tells me that you can not mint (create) new Bitcoins as much as you can produce Gold out of mines. This makes them Bit coins unique. Capital investment in Gold is much higher than for Bitcoin. The cost of producing Gold is somewhere between $1100 - $1300. Bulk of it goes towards mining, which funds land leases, equipment, and labor (overseas). Every ounce of gold import that ends up as a jewelry in India, supports $1200 capital investment overseas, so it requires land, energy, and people. Profits of gold sales are taxed overseas, taxes on mines, investment in equipment and labor all happens overseas. All this happens so that I can spend my excess wealth from Rupees (thus in RBI's dollar reserve) into Gold. If that gold ended up in India in the form of excess capital (just not represented in rupees or dollars), there would not have been a problem. But that gold ends up in a jewelry and is not available as excess capital (unless one chooses to sell); which in turn does not help Indian economy. And, that is a problem that arises from importing I'm trying to highlight.

Separately, the historic context you have highlighted for metals in Gold, is interesting. I guess I go back to your question,
Some love the idea of gold standard. Clearly they have not thought things through. Gold standard- I ask again "who sets the standard?"
It appears that western efforts to enforce fiat currency standard, using ALL MEANS, including brutal force will continue to play out until, owners of gold have the balls to show who is the boss. Unless that happens, all that gold imports, regardless of which form it takes (jewelry, bullion, coins etc) stays merely as a "tail risk hedge", no?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Neshant »

You will know its time to sell gold when India turns from world's biggest importer of gold to world's biggest exporter of gold.

Until interest rates on fiat money hits double digits, I continue to buy gold.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by panduranghari »

Uday M ji,
Did you read FOFOA's latest piece. It took me 2 hours to read it and understand it. It will be a great if you could read it too. It will help you see gold in a different light.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by chanakyaa »

Looks like FOFOA time this Saturday and Sunday.

Neshant, I would generally agree with you if you were suggesting that market participants would respond to those interest rate changes and respect gold holders; thus transition of wealth would be peaceful. Checkout Ruble and Russian yields. Please correct me if I misunderstood. I believe that it is not going to be peaceful and I also doubt the outcome as you have laid out. Here is why.

The recent development in Oil prices and the tussle with Rossiya is a prime example of less than peaceful outcome, and why commodity holders can't command a price for their precious commodity. Why do you think Oil produces are not able to command $100+ per barrel while very well knowing that all the petrodollars they are accepting are worthless? I doubt you believe that 30% drop in prices are due to economic forces. I believe that if it comes to situation in which Gold holder are totally in charge, it is not going to be pretty. In fact it won't even get to that state. We will see. If you have evidence to believe otherwise, then I'm wrong and it is not a bad thing.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by vishvak »

From the above:
Insane debt levels, which the government has been accumulating at faster and faster rates, hitting an unprecedented $18 trillion in debt this past week.

Short-sighted monetary policy, from quantitative easing that has debased the currency to negative interest rates that have wiped out any reason to be smart with money.

A crippled economy, as Western nations’ oppressive taxation frightens away the productive, and handouts have created a society of dependency.

Global bullying, as the US spies on its own citizens and allies, compelling businesses and governments to terminate their relationships with the Land of the Free.

Waging endless wars, whether against nouns (‘terrorism’), plants (‘drugs’), and brown people on the other side of the planet who supposedly hate us for our freedom. If they only knew…

A population that lives in fear, as you are more likely to get shot by your own police in the United States today than to ever even see a terrorist.
For the last point, why would the population, of the world's only superpower and country that is among firsts of the first world, live in fear? It must be due to inherent contradictions, including race/religion/social-structures/ etc etc.

The Chinese posters in the forum need to throw some light on this - factors within USA. American fanboys must see why China overtaking USA was overlooked, by fanboys and so also by others as peer-pressure event.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Suraj »

When it comes to China, PPP GDP is an important measure, but when we talk about us being #3 on that ranking, people chime up that onlee absolute GDP matters :)
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by gakakkad »

^ I am not sure if nominal GDP measured in US dollars can be called absolute GDP... Because by definition of nominal GDP it is measured in US dollars...its like temperature measured in Celsius or kelvin ... Temperature in Celsius uses freezing and boiling of water as a reference point. While kelvin uses no reference point .. Nominal GDP uses the US dollar exchange rate as a reference point ,hence cannot be absolute .. In spite of its flaws a PPP GDP is closer to being an absolute GDP than nominal dollars...

abstract as it may seem ,we ll eventually need an absolute scale for measuring economic activity ,where zero means no net economic activity..Stuff like bitcoins is a step in that direction...
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Austin »

Suraj wrote:
When it comes to China, PPP GDP is an important measure, but when we talk about us being #3 on that ranking, people chime up that onlee absolute GDP matters :)
Yep we must use the same benchmark , here the IMF Report

http://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/index.php

For GDP based on PPP per capita

China 19.2 Thousand
India 8.2 Thousand
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Liu »

Austin wrote: http://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/index.php

For GDP based on PPP per capita

China 19.2 Thousand
India 8.2 Thousand
[/quote]


nominal GDP is a good way to metric nationa economy influence and mighty . USA has NO.1 nomnal GDP ,so USA has global most influence .INdia's nominal GDP is only 1/10 of USA's and ranks only 10th or so,so india economy influence is much less than USA and even France/UK has more economy influence than India.


however, PPP is a better way to metric real life quality....
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Liu »

vishvak wrote:From the above:
Insane debt levels, which the government has been accumulating at faster and faster rates, hitting an unprecedented $18 trillion in debt this past week.

Short-sighted monetary policy, from quantitative easing that has debased the currency to negative interest rates that have wiped out any reason to be smart with money.

A crippled economy, as Western nations’ oppressive taxation frightens away the productive, and handouts have created a society of dependency.

Global bullying, as the US spies on its own citizens and allies, compelling businesses and governments to terminate their relationships with the Land of the Free.

Waging endless wars, whether against nouns (‘terrorism’), plants (‘drugs’), and brown people on the other side of the planet who supposedly hate us for our freedom. If they only knew…

A population that lives in fear, as you are more likely to get shot by your own police in the United States today than to ever even see a terrorist.
For the last point, why would the population, of the world's only superpower and country that is among firsts of the first world, live in fear? It must be due to inherent contradictions, including race/religion/social-structures/ etc etc.

The Chinese posters in the forum need to throw some light on this - factors within USA. American fanboys must see why China overtaking USA was overlooked, by fanboys and so also by others as peer-pressure event.
Yankees are in fear, because their industry base and supply chains are being weakened day by day,facing the fierce competition from CHina.

nowdays, industry might is still the basestone of one nation's economy might and military might, while culture domiance is based on the economical and military dominance .

when its industry might is gone, the economical,cultural,military dominance of west civilization will be gone too.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by sudarshan »

Link 1

Link 2

I've been coming across this viewpoint on multiple sites (see above). They explain away the Indian and Chinese dominance in terms of world GDP pre- the 1700's as "the effect of sheer population." The post 1700 Western GDP inflation is explained as being due to "industrial revolution, when the west learned to compensate for lack of brute numbers through innovation." Now the new Chinese and increasingly Indian domination is being explained as "China and India finally learning to innovate."

So the narrative is - big, bumbling India and China blundered along dominating the world due to sheer size, but were like "du-uh!" on brain-power. Then the nimble west rose to the challenge and showed what brain power could do. Now finally, the Indians and Chinese are learning the value of innovation from the west. Or maybe it's numbers again now? "Du-uh - stupid Indian don't get it."

Talk about self-serving, narcissistic viewpoints.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Austin »

Not sure how relevant this would be or even possible but the writeup

Russia Could Introduce a Gold Ruble Tomorrow
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Liu »

Austin wrote:Not sure how relevant this would be or even possible but the writeup

Russia Could Introduce a Gold Ruble Tomorrow
it is impossible to return to The gold standard,while the supply of gold can not meet the demand of hard cash.

Putin's effort is doomed to be in vain.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Liu »

sudarshan wrote:Link 1

Link 2

I've been coming across this viewpoint on multiple sites (see above). They explain away the Indian and Chinese dominance in terms of world GDP pre- the 1700's as "the effect of sheer population." The post 1700 Western GDP inflation is explained as being due to "industrial revolution, when the west learned to compensate for lack of brute numbers through innovation." Now the new Chinese and increasingly Indian domination is being explained as "China and India finally learning to innovate."

So the narrative is - big, bumbling India and China blundered along dominating the world due to sheer size, but were like "du-uh!" on brain-power. Then the nimble west rose to the challenge and showed what brain power could do. Now finally, the Indians and Chinese are learning the value of innovation from the west. Or maybe it's numbers again now? "Du-uh - stupid Indian don't get it."

Talk about self-serving, narcissistic viewpoints.
it is meaningless to estimate the GDP of pre-modern age, because GDP is a modern term raised after 1930s.



BTW, I always think that some other indicators such as electricity consumption ,auto sale ,trade amount and feight index are the better ones to metric economy scale than GDP and PPP.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by vishvak »

Liu Xiānshēng, any euphoria in China about news above - GDP adding more than that of USA? Anything notable in the social media?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Liu »

vishvak wrote:Liu Xiānshēng, any euphoria in China about news above - GDP adding more than that of USA? Anything notable in the social media?
well,
1.in China, bashing-CCP now is a fashion in some portals such as Netease... it is also a hoppy of some "The public intellectuals" in CHina

some right-wing websites such as Netease,KDnet are the baselands of those ""The public intellectuals"
http://www.163.com/
http://club.kdnet.net/list.asp?boardid=1


Sometimes, even the absence of toliets in WC can be a excuse for The public intellectuals[/b]"to bash CCP....."guy, why are the toiliets of WS always gone in CHina ?? Why are there always enough toiliets in the WC in USA??? it must be because there is no democary in China that corrupted CCP fat cats can loot the toiliets in WC freely"....

2.so, many Chinese "The public intellectuals" keep on bashing CCP by belittling the news as usual ,and said that it is not helpful for the poor ,while the poor can not benifits from the rise of PPP.

3.however, at the news that CHina's PPP has surpassed USA, in CHinese medias, mainstreams think that it is a good move,but it is a long way for China to manage to asskick USA. it is not the time for CHina to rest.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Austin »

David Stockman: The Keynesian Toolbox Is Empty

Good View Point on Chinese Economic Bubble

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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Neshant »

Liu wrote: it is impossible to return to The gold standard,while the supply of gold can not meet the demand of hard cash.
That's like saying the supply of trees is insufficient to meet the demand of hard cash.
Or the supply of electrons is insufficient to meet the demand of digital cash.

The reality is there is always supply, its just a question of price.

Nobody needs to be trading with gold coins under a gold standard. All that's needed is a paper representation of gold that can be cashed in on demand (and I would add anonymously). If people know that they have the ability to get their gold on demand and that trust is not violated, a gold standard will operate just like a fiat standard - except there will be no leverage allowed (i.e. gambling with someone elses' chips as in the present fraudulent system).

However all such systems where paper promises of gold were used in place of physical gold have ended in the gold depositor/saver/wage earner being cheated. The old saying is thus true :
"Because gold is honest money, it is disliked by dishonest men."
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Austin »

Liu wrote:
it is impossible to return to The gold standard,while the supply of gold can not meet the demand of hard cash.

Putin's effort is doomed to be in vain.
Obviously Putin is not doing these effort its just an analysis done by some one.

While I doubt the CBR would move to gold standard in near future , mostly because it would restrict credit expansion that all Central Bank would like to do.

Strict Discipline in Monetary Policy is something most central banks have forgotten hence the credit bubble era we live in

How feasible would it be for Russia to move from pegging Rouble with Euro/USD to say pegging 50:50 Gold & Yuan
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by panduranghari »

Neshant ji and Austin saar,
Liu is right. We can never have gold standard again.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Liu »

panduranghari wrote:Neshant ji and Austin saar,
Liu is right. We can never have gold standard again.
since gold standard collapsed during WWI, people always tried to restore it.

Between WW I and WW II, such tries failed due to the Great Depession.

After bretton woods ,gold standard succeeded by the means of "USD standard".

however, after 1971, "USD standard" also collpased.


so, the past experience proves that all tries to restore "gold stardard" is in vain.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by panduranghari »

What is your solution Liu? What would you like to see happen?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Austin »

Russia for 10 months increased gold production by 17.6% - up to 247.98 tons

http://ria.ru/economy/20141204/1036662534.html
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Austin »

Neshant
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Neshant »

The system always collapses to gold as 5000 years of history proves.

So there is no such thing as "the gold standard collapsed".

A gold standard inevitably returns once paper systems collapse. That despite govt & banker attempts to prevent it.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by panduranghari »

When you talk about gold standard, I believe I am assuming that gold standard is the idea that gold is the ultimate store of value as demonstrated by Exters Inverse Pyramid. Unlike the assumptions made by the financial crowd under the influence of quants. If you are talking about monetising gold, it is not happening. Gold needs to be demonetised. Even today its a monetary metal. To usher in an era of truly free market capitalism, gold needs to be completely demonetised. It should be called a non monetary asset. This also means gold open market operations (GOMO) like buying gold by central banks or encouraging paper gold should stop. What we do on individual level like buying or selling gold, should not be expanded to the national or supra-national level. Buying gold is not bad on personal level, but when central banks start buying gold, it is a GOMO. And that is bad for the savers within the jurisdiction. The central bank is thus impoverishing the savers within its zone.

I have a lot of respect for Raghuram Rajan. He has shown that he is smarter than the heads of central banks of China and Russia.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by chetak »

Sorry if posted earlier

grandmaster-putins-golden-trap


November 23, 2014
Very few people understand what Putin is doing at the moment. And almost no one understands what he will do in the future.

No matter how strange it may seem, but right now, Putin is selling Russian oil and gas only for physical gold.

Putin is not shouting about it all over the world. And of course, he still accepts US dollars as an intermediate means of payment. But he immediately exchanges all these dollars obtained from the sale of oil and gas for physical gold!

To understand this, it is enough to look at the dynamics of growth of gold reserves of Russia and to compare this data with foreign exchange earnings of the RF coming from the sale of oil and gas over the same period.

Image
central banks gold reserves pie chart

Moreover, in the third quarter the purchases by Russia of physical gold are at an all-time high, record levels. In the third quarter of this year, Russia had purchased an incredible amount of gold in the amount of 55 tons. It's more than all the central banks of all countries of the world combined (according to official data)!

In total, the central banks of all countries of the world have purchased 93 tons of the precious metal in the third quarter of 2014. It was the 15th consecutive quarter of net purchases of gold by Central banks. Of the 93 tonnes of gold purchases by central banks around the world during this period, the staggering volume of purchases - of 55 tons - belongs to Russia.

Not so long ago, British scientists have successfully come to the same conclusion, as was published in the Conclusion of the U.S. Geological survey a few years ago. Namely: Europe will not be able to survive without energy supply from Russia. Translated from English to any other language in the world it means: "The world will not be able to survive if oil and gas from Russia is subtracted from the global balance of energy supply".

Thus, the Western world, built on the hegemony of the petrodollar, is in a catastrophic situation. In which it cannot survive without oil and gas supplies from Russia. And Russia is now ready to sell its oil and gas to the West only in exchange for physical gold! The twist of Putin's game is that the mechanism for the sale of Russian energy to the West only for gold now works regardless of whether the West agrees to pay for Russian oil and gas with its artificially cheap gold, or not.

Since Russia has a constant flow of dollars from the sale of oil and gas, it will be able to convert these dollars to buy gold at current gold prices, depressed by all means by the West. This equates gold price, which had been artificially and meticulously lowered by the Fed and ESF many time…via artificially inflated purchasing power of the dollar through market manipulation.

Interesting fact: The suppression of gold prices by the special department of US Government - ESF (Exchange Stabilization Fund) - with the aim of stabilizing the dollar has been made into a law in the United States.

In the financial world it is (generally) accepted as a given that gold is anti-dollar…i.e. the gold price runs inverse to value of the dollar.

In 1971, US President Richard Nixon closed the 'gold window', ending the free exchange of dollars for gold, guaranteed by the US in 1944 at Bretton Woods.
In 2014, Russian President Vladimir Putin has reopened the 'gold window', without asking Washington's permission.


Right now the West spends much of its efforts and resources to suppress the prices of gold and oil. Thereby, on the one hand to distort the existing economic reality in favor of the US dollar …and on the other hand, to destroy the Russian economy, refusing to play the role of obedient vassal of the West.

Today assets such as gold and oil look proportionally weakened and excessively undervalued against the US dollar. It is a consequence of the enormous economic effort on the part of the West.

And now Putin sells Russian energy resources in exchange for these US dollars, artificially propped by the efforts of the West. With these dollar proceeds Putin immediately buys gold, artificially devalued against the U.S. dollar by the efforts of the West itself!

There is another interesting element in Putin's game. It's Russian uranium. Every sixth light bulb in the USA depends on its supply, which Russia sells to the US too…for dollars.

Thus, in exchange for Russian oil, gas and uranium, the West pays Russia with dollars, purchasing power of which is artificially inflated against oil and gold by the efforts (manipulations) of the West. However, Putin uses these dollars only to withdraw physical gold from the West in exchange at a price denominated in US dollars, artificially lowered by the same West.

This truly brilliant economic combination by Putin puts the West led by the United States in a position of a snake, aggressively and diligently devouring its own tail.

The idea of this economic golden trap for the West is probably not authored by Putin himself. Most likely it was the idea of Putin's Advisor for Economic Affairs – Dr. Sergey Glazyev. Otherwise, why seemingly not involved in business bureaucrat Glazyev, along with many Russian businessmen, was personally included by Washington on the sanction list? The idea of an economist, Dr. Glazyev was brilliantly executed by Putin…but with full endorsement from his Chinese colleague - XI Jinping.

Especially interesting in this context looks the November statement of the first Deputy Chairman of Central Bank of Russia Ksenia Yudaeva, which stressed that the CBR can use the gold from its reserves to pay for imports, if need be. It is obvious that in terms of sanctions by the Western world, this statement is addressed to the BRICS countries, and first of all China. For China, Russia's willingness to pay for goods with Western gold is very convenient. And here's why:

China recently announced that it will cease to increase its gold and currency reserves denominated in US dollars. Considering the growing trade deficit between the US and China (the current difference is five times in favor of China), then this statement translated from the financial language reads: "China stops selling their goods for dollars". The world's media chose not to notice this grandest in the recent monetary historic event . The issue is not that China literally refuses to sell its goods for US dollars. China, of course, will continue to accept US dollars as an intermediate means of payment for its goods. But, having taken dollars, China will immediately get rid of them and replace with something else in the structure of its gold and currency reserves. Otherwise the statement made by the monetary authorities of China loses its meaning: "We are stopping the increase of our gold and currency reserves, denominated in US dollars." That is, China will no longer buy United States Treasury bonds for dollars earned from trade with any countries, as they did this before.

Thus, China will replace all the dollars that it will receive for its goods not only from the US but from all over the world with something else not to increase their gold currency reserves, denominated in US dollars. And here is an interesting question: what will China replace all the trade dollars with? What currency or an asset? Analysis of the current monetary policy of China shows that most likely the dollars coming from trade, or a substantial chunk of them, China will quietly replace and de facto is already replacing with Gold.

In this aspect, the solitaire of Russian-Chinese relations is extremely successful for Moscow and Beijing. Russia buys goods from China directly for gold at its current price. While China buys Russian energy resources for gold at its current price. At this Russian-Chinese festival of life there is a place for everything: Chinese goods, Russian energy resources, and gold - as a means of mutual payment. Only the US dollar has no place at this festival of life. And this is not surprising. Because the US dollar is not a Chinese product, nor a Russian energy resource. It is only an intermediate financial instrument of settlement - and an unnecessary intermediary. And it is customary to exclude unnecessary intermediaries from the interaction of two independent business partners.

It should be noted separately that the global market for physical gold is extremely small relative to the world market for physical oil supplies. And especially the world market for physical gold is microscopic compared to the entirety of world markets for physical delivery of oil, gas, uranium and goods.

Emphasis on the phrase "physical gold" is made because in exchange for its physical, not 'paper' energy resources, Russia is now withdrawing gold from the West, but only in its physical, not paper form. China accomplishes this by acquiring from the West the artificially devalued physical gold as a payment for physical delivery of real products to the West.

The West hopes that Russia and China will accept as payment for their energy resources and goods…the "shitcoin" or so-called "paper gold" of various kinds also did not materialize. Russia and China are only interested in real gold and only the physical metal as a final means of payment.

For reference: the turnover of the market of paper gold, only of gold futures, is estimated at $360 billion per month. But physical delivery of gold is only for $280 million a month. This equates to a ratio of trade of paper gold versus physical gold to 1000 to 1.

Using the mechanism of active withdrawal from the market of one artificially lowered by the West financial asset (gold) in exchange for another artificially inflated by the West financial asset (USD), Putin has thereby started the countdown to the end of the world hegemony of petrodollar. Thus, Putin has put the West in a deadlock of the absence of any positive economic prospects.

The West can spend as much of its efforts and resources to artificially increase the purchasing power of the dollar, lower oil prices and artificially lower the purchasing power of gold. The problem of the West is that the stocks of physical gold in possession of the West are not unlimited. Therefore, the more the West devalues oil and gold against the US dollar, the faster it loses devaluing Gold from its not infinite reserves.

In this brilliantly played by Putin economic combination, physical gold from the reserves of the West is rapidly flowing to Russia, China, Brazil, Kazakhstan and India (i.e. the BRICS countries). At the current rate of reduction of reserves of physical gold, the West simply does not have the time to do anything against Putin's Russia until the collapse of the entire Western petrodollar world. In chess the situation in which Putin has put the West, led by the US, is called "time trouble".

The Western world has never faced such economic events and phenomena that are happening right now. The former USSR rapidly sold gold during the fall of oil prices. Today, Russia rapidly buys gold during the fall in oil prices. Thus, Russia poses a real threat to the American model of petrodollar world domination.

The main principle of world petrodollar model is allowing Western countries led by the United States to live at the expense of the labor and resources of other countries…based on the role of the US currency, dominant in the global monetary system (GMS) . The role of the US dollar in the GMS is that it is the ultimate means of payment. This means that the national currency of the United States in the structure of the GMS is the ultimate asset accumulator, to exchange which to any other asset does not make sense.

Led by Russia and China, what the BRICS are doing now is actually changing the role and status of the US dollar in the global monetary system. From the ultimate means of payment and asset accumulation, the national currency of the USA, by the joint actions of Moscow and Beijing is turned into only an intermediate means of payment. Intended only to exchange this interim payment for another and the ultimate financial asset - gold. Thus, the US dollar actually loses its role as the ultimate means of payment and asset accumulation, yielding both of those roles to another recognized, denationalized and depoliticized monetary asset – GOLD!

Traditionally, the West has used two methods to eliminate the threat to the hegemony of petrodollar model in the world and the consequent excessive privileges for the West:

One of these methods - colored revolutions. The second method, which is usually applied by the West, if the first fails - military aggression and bombing.

But in Russia's case both of these methods are either impossible or unacceptable for the West.

Because, firstly, the population of Russia, unlike people in many other countries, does not wish to exchange their freedom and the future of their children for Western kielbasa (meat sausage). This is evident from the record ratings of Putin, regularly published by the leading Western rating agencies. Personal friendship of Washington protégé Navalny with Senator McCain played for him and Washington a very negative role. Having learned this fact from the media, 98% of the Russian population now perceive Navalny only as a vassal of Washington and a traitor to Russia's national interests. Therefore Western professionals, who have not yet lost their mind, cannot dream about any color revolution in Russia.

As for the second traditional Western way of direct military aggression, Russia is certainly not Yugoslavia, not Iraq nor Libya. In any non-nuclear military operation against Russia, in the territory of Russia, the West led by the US is doomed to defeat. And the generals in the Pentagon exercising real leadership of NATO forces are aware of this. Similarly hopeless is a nuclear war against Russia, including the concept of so-called "preventive disarming nuclear strike". NATO is simply not technically able to strike a blow that would completely disarm the nuclear potential of Russia in all its many manifestations. A massive nuclear retaliatory strike on the enemy or a pool of enemies would be inevitable. And its total capacity will be enough for survivors to envy the dead. That is, an exchange of nuclear strikes with a country like Russia is not a solution to the looming problem of the collapse of a petrodollar world. It is in the best case, a final chord and the last point in the history of its existence. In the worst case - a nuclear winter and the demise of all life on the planet, except for the bacteria mutated from radiation.

The Western economic establishment can see and understand the essence of the situation. Leading Western economists are certainly aware of the severity of the predicament and hopelessness of the situation the Western world finds itself in, in Putin's economic gold trap. After all, since the Bretton Woods agreements, we all know the Golden rule: "Who has more gold sets the rules." But everyone in the West is silent about it. Silent because no one knows now how to get out of this situation.

If you explain to the Western public all the details of the looming economic disaster, the public will ask the supporters of a petrodollar world the most horrific questions, which will sound like this:

- How long will the West be able to buy oil and gas from Russia in exchange for physical gold?
-And what will happen to the US petrodollar after the West runs out of physical gold to pay for Russian oil, gas and uranium, as well as to pay for Chinese goods?

No one in the west today can answer these seemingly simple questions.

And this is called "Checkmate", ladies and gentlemen. The game is over.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by Austin »

I dont think Russia has started or demanded to sell Oil in Gold , I doubt any one has that amount of Gold to sell for Oil , They sell around 525 million tons of Oil per year roughly equal to 3.57 bboe , In today rate when Brent is say at very conservative $60 ( its actually $65 ) , It is around $215 Billion Dollar of Oil .....How can any one have that kind of Gold to sell YOY

What Putin said recently was they would sell Oil in Rouble & Yuan to reduce Dollar Risk to economy ......he didnt mention gold. I think looking ahead Russia would sell Oil/Gas in Euro/Rouble/Yuan ( Euro makes sense as EU buys most of their Oil )

They are accumulating Gold by other means the CBR is buying most and possibly all the Gold they are producing in the country and probably buying few in open market ...We need to see the stastics released by CBR to make a value judgement on Gold Reserve increase post sanction.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic changes

Post by member_28714 »

Liu wrote:
Austin wrote:Not sure how relevant this would be or even possible but the writeup

Russia Could Introduce a Gold Ruble Tomorrow
it is impossible to return to The gold standard,while the supply of gold can not meet the demand of hard cash.

Putin's effort is doomed to be in vain.

Supply and Demand for Gold?? Do you eat it? Have you ever heard a run on the price of gold due to over supply or reduced demand? Please dont make such silly suppositions.

The value of gold is relative to the 'essential commodity' market. Half a millennium back, value of gold was relative to a different set of essential commodities than todays. thats how black pepper became known as black gold. and thats how crude oil became known as black gold. The value of Gold will always be determined by the demand of the specific time periods' essential commodities.

It is not how much a gram of gold costs, but how much everything else costs in relation to gold. So even with a minuscule amount of gold, one can evolve a monetary system around it.
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