LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 19 Apr 2015 08:49

Mod Note#2: For those bandwaggoning on DexterM's abusing of a moderator and try "splitting" other moderators et al: you too shall get summary bans for long periods of time, if you target a specific moderator and play games by using "Report" facility. Your complaint should stand on its own merit, not feeding off of what DexterM has ejected.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Apr 2015 08:58

http://idrw.org/focus-shifts-to-tejas-m ... -critical/

Tejas mk2 plans detailed. Only 30% common parts with mk1.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 19 Apr 2015 09:23

Once the Mk2 starts flying, the MK1 can be upgraded with the same AESA radar of MKII and the commonality will increase. The one major upgrade that may not be possible will be the engine, other than that most of the components can be replaced with MKII version.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 19 Apr 2015 09:28

We still don't know how much more fuel mk-2 is going to carry?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Apr 2015 09:30

for now let us assume it will be the same...since the wing to my knowledge is not changing ? methinks the Tejas will always fly with 2 supersonic drop tanks in a2a role also like the rafale does. http://www.sae.org/dlymagazineimages/we ... _21708.jpg

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Apr 2015 09:31

Uddu
They need to see if those upgrade components will fit and have adequate electrical power. Best option stick to MK1 standard for ghatbatch.

nash · Post by **nash** » 19 Apr 2015 09:40

Singha wrote:http://idrw.org/focus-shifts-to-tejas-m ... -critical/

Tejas mk2 plans detailed. Only 30% common parts with mk1.

Second Production line

IAF and MOD are exploring feasibility of starting Second production line for Tejas MK2 while IAF is still not put a final figure on MK-2 aircrafts they want but it is estimated that final figure might be close to 300 aircrafts till then IAF is committed itself in procuring an initial 83 Tejas Mk 2s and the Indian Navy has expressed its firm requirement for 46 LCA Mk2 for Indian Navy. Talks have been held with Private Defence companies and Tata Advanced Systems Limited (TASL) is emerging as a viable option said source.

300 number i think might be of MkI(100) and MkII(200) and if MkI increase to 80-100 then this will led to 16-20 LCA/year , so if HAL able to produce only 8/year in its current production line then we might need this II production line now for MkI also OR if HAL able to produce 16-20/ year then this talk of II production line and order in 100s might led to the production of 24-32/year of mkII.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Apr 2015 09:55

it will be a good move ...will cut HAL's TINA factor to size and components can be sourced from same network HAL uses.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Apr 2015 10:05

Singha wrote:http://idrw.org/focus-shifts-to-tejas-m ... -critical/

Tejas mk2 plans detailed. Only 30% common parts with mk1.

Just 30 % is the news reliable ?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Apr 2015 10:08

Guys, I am worried about the engine for the jet. Not sure how relevant this worry is.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 19 Apr 2015 10:50

Singha wrote:it will be a good move ...will cut HAL's TINA factor to size and components can be sourced from same network HAL uses.

But who is going to teach Reliance/Tata/whoever how to build the LCA? With all the experience that HAL has, it took this long to get the Mk1 line started. Lets not pretend that screw driver assembling a 'wing box' or helicopter 'cabin' with the handholding from foreign vendors will actually enable you to do development or production engineering of a new airframe. The only option new entrants might have is to bring in foreign consultants or pillage HAL employee base.

ajay_hk · Post by **ajay_hk** » 19 Apr 2015 11:07

Can add 6 LCA Tejas squadrons in 4-5 years – Parrikar

Incidentally, the original plan was that six squadrons each of MMRCA and Tejas would replace the existing 10 Mig-21 and four MiG-27 squadrons. Parrikar, on his part, said, “In the next four to five years, we can add about six LCA squadrons if we push HAL, which I am doing.”

DRDO-HAL will certainly need to be pushed on the Tejas project since it’s critical for self-reliance in defence production.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 19 Apr 2015 12:09

abhik wrote:But who is going to teach Reliance/Tata/whoever how to build the LCA? With all the experience that HAL has, it took this long to get the Mk1 line started. Lets not pretend that screw driver assembling a 'wing box' or helicopter 'cabin' with the handholding from foreign vendors will actually enable you to do development or production engineering of a new airframe. The only option new entrants might have is to bring in foreign consultants or pillage HAL employee base.

HAL will do the hand holding as being done by foreign defence companies to screw driver manufacture their products. HAL will be the final integrator and pvt. industry will be Tier 1 supplier. Actually HAL intends to head towards that direction and IIRC in previous MoD Annual Report they had mentioned that by 2030 HAL will outsource 50% of it's manufacturing. So it's already being done. Teaching them to build a Tejas doesn't mean that they have to do R&D for that, they have to simply manufacture components as per the manufacturing drawings supplied to them.

Pratyush wrote:Guys, I am worried about the engine for the jet. Not sure how relevant this worry is.

Very relevant and my nightmare as well. If DRDO hasn't started reverse engineering F414 out of some misplaced sense of propriety then I see India getting royally ****** at some point in future and the blame for the same will squarely lie on DRDO's head.

Austin wrote:
Singha wrote:http://idrw.org/focus-shifts-to-tejas-m ... -critical/

Tejas mk2 plans detailed. Only 30% common parts with mk1.
Just 30 % is the news reliable ?

Yes, Saurav jha has reported same in one of his articles.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 19 Apr 2015 12:19

When is the estimated completion date of the gun integration? I remember a BRF-ite posting a video of gun trials on ground.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 19 Apr 2015 12:22

Sagar G wrote:Very relevant and my nightmare as well. If DRDO hasn't started reverse engineering F414 out of some misplaced sense of propriety then I see India getting royally ****** at some point in future and the blame for the same will squarely lie on DRDO's head.

Given that we're dealing with very high end metallurgy, reverse engineering is easier said than done. However, we will be license producing the engine with has a service life matching (possibly exceeding) that of the airframe. And as long as the spares are built domestically and the overhauls done in-house, there should be no need to go back to the OEM for support. Short of a design flaw anyway.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 19 Apr 2015 12:30

Viv S wrote:Given that we're dealing with very high end metallurgy, reverse engineering is easier said than done. However, we will be license producing the engine with has a service life matching (possibly exceeding) that of the airframe. And as long as the spares are built domestically and the overhauls done in-house, there should be no need to go back to the OEM for support. Short of a design flaw anyway.

Did I say or indicate anywhere in my post that reverse engineering would be an easy job ??? It will take 4-5 yrs. atleast and given the production plan of Mk.2 and the size of the engine order we have enough time to achieve the same. I severely doubt that the tech. to produce each and every spare domestically will be shared by USA because then they will lose the leverage to harass India w.r.t. Tejas and also end up sharing tech which they don't want to in the first place. Given the backstabbing ******** we know USA is I don't see why we should not start a reverse engineering program right now and when successful kick USA out of the program for good.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 19 Apr 2015 12:40

Sagar G wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Guys, I am worried about the engine for the jet. Not sure how relevant this worry is.
Very relevant and my nightmare as well. If DRDO hasn't started reverse engineering F414 out of some misplaced sense of propriety then I see India getting royally ****** at some point in future and the blame for the same will squarely lie on DRDO's head.

Should point out that some people have the idea that the only reason that India isn't reverse-engineering aircraft tech is because of "dharmic reasons". There is actually a different reason why not and it has nothing to do with propriety, dharmicness or whatever (SDREs are just as unscruplous as everyone else, probably even more innovative than most, judging by news reports of cribbing techniques used

). The real reason is because it isn't easy to reverse-engineer a jet engine. PERIOD.

People seem to think that if you have an existing engine, a measuring tape and a set of vernier calipers, you can simply measure out the parts and then manufacture your own. Doesn't work that way with modern jet engines. Along with the shape of the part, you also need to know metallurgy, heat treatment, jigs and fixtures, sequence of assembly, calibration, maintenance schedules etc. and without knowledge of all that stuff, your jet engine isn't going to work at all.

This is the reason why you don't find Khyber pass gunsmiths or Chinese factories manufacturing a GE-404 engine, even though they have had plenty of opportunities to examine them closely. It isn't a 5 year job or even a 20 year job, otherwise we'd have seen one powering Chinese jets by now. Israelis had to steal the plans from SNECMA to manufacture their version for their Kfir (Mirage clone).

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 19 Apr 2015 12:43

Sagar G wrote:Did I say or indicate anywhere in my post that reverse engineering would be an easy job ??? It will take 4-5 yrs. atleast and given the production plan of Mk.2 and the size of the engine order we have enough time to achieve the same. I severely doubt that the tech. to produce each and every spare domestically will be shared by USA because then they will lose the leverage to harass India w.r.t. Tejas and also end up sharing tech which they don't want to in the first place. Given the backstabbing ******** we know USA is I don't see why we should not start a reverse engineering program right now and when successful kick USA out of the program for good.

So you severely doubt that we can build the spares domestically, but are confident that we can reverse engineer the engine in 4-5 years?

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 19 Apr 2015 13:01

ArmenT wrote:Should point out that some people have the idea that the only reason that India isn't reverse-engineering aircraft tech is because of "dharmic reasons". There is actually a different reason why not and it has nothing to do with propriety, dharmicness or whatever (SDREs are just as unscruplous as everyone else, probably even more innovative than most, judging by news reports of cribbing techniques used ). The real reason is because it isn't easy to reverse-engineer a jet engine. PERIOD.

People seem to think that if you have an existing engine, a measuring tape and a set of vernier calipers, you can simply measure out the parts and then manufacture your own. Doesn't work that way with modern jet engines. Along with the shape of the part, you also need to know metallurgy, heat treatment, jigs and fixtures, sequence of assembly, calibration, maintenance schedules etc. and without knowledge of all that stuff, your jet engine isn't going to work at all.

This is the reason why you don't find Khyber pass gunsmiths or Chinese factories manufacturing a GE-404 engine, even though they have had plenty of opportunities to examine them closely. It isn't a 5 year job or even a 20 year job, otherwise we'd have seen one powering Chinese jets by now. Israelis had to steal the plans from SNECMA to manufacture their version for their Kfir (Mirage clone).

Viv S wrote:So you severely doubt that we can build the spares domestically, but are confident that we can reverse engineer the engine in 4-5 years?

Posted previously here by Vipul

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1732019

The last Jet-Engine laugh

It was in 1998, close to a decade after several such collaborative efforts were established and Phase 1 of the undertaking was apace, that Indian ingenuity was really tested. On May 11 and 13, Atal Behari Vajpayee's National Democratic Alliance government ordered the detonation of one fusion and five fission devices at the Pokhran Test Range, Rajasthan. Two months later, after an incensed US administration declared punitive sanctions against India, the avionics engineers were evicted from Lockheed Martin's New York facility, with the LCA's fly-by-wire system far from complete. "But they came back home and built the whole thing themselves," said Dr Arunachalam. "We'd also managed to keep one of the 11 GE engines," added Air Marshal Rajkumar. "Our scientists stripped the thing down to its bones and reverse engineered it from scratch."

Still doubt the possibility of it being done ???

Edit:- Just realised the spin done by Viv S to what I actually posted, you almost got me !!!

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 19 Apr 2015 13:07

Sagar G wrote: Still doubt the possibility of it being done ???

Yes. I'll believe it when I see it. Until then, you can call me a doubting thomas.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 19 Apr 2015 13:17

ArmenT wrote:Yes. I'll believe it when I see it. Until then, you can call me a doubting thomas.

Obviously you have all the right to doubt the success of the programme but what I fail to understand is why some people start shouting PHAILURE PHAILURE !!! ABSOLUTE PHAILURE !!! INDIAN SCIENTISTS MURDABAAD !!! even before a program has been attempted ??? Merely a proposal to attempt something so as to beak the technological choke hold is drawing snarks !!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Apr 2015 13:55

in my opinion HAL is the only one who can do final assembly of the Tejas and pre-delivery certification of the plane.

however like airbus and boeing do, most of the manufacture of the parts and even some of the assembly can be handed down to pvt players...like the tailfins, the wings, landing gear, pylons, the cockpit bathtub fitted with the avionics, the nose section with radar ...maybe they can be done via modular assembly and delivered to hal as "bricks" for attaching to the fuselage.

HAL will need to scale up its final assembly line, but be relieved of most of the parts manufacture and assembly of sections where possible.

the current system of having the entire plane in a jig and then slowly putting all the parts one by one and the miles of wiring is very slow.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Apr 2015 14:06

Singha, that's HALs plan anyhow. That's what they are doing with the Su-30 as well.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 19 Apr 2015 14:12

Sagar G wrote:Still doubt the possibility of it being done ???

Edit:- Just realised the spin done by Viv S to what I actually posted, you almost got me !!!

AM Rajkumar is guilty here of using faulty terminology. You don't just strip a jet engine and 'reverse engineer' the metallurgy that went into creating it. The Chinese have spent decades in their effort, (that too not only with operational engines but domestically license built units), and its only now that they have something to show for it (however modest).

All I can suggest is that you spend some time to looking into the various factors involved in the R&D and production of a modern turbofan. Expecting to reverse engineer something like the F414 in 4-5 years, borders on the ludicrous. On second thought, it doesn't border on it, its entirely ludicrous.

If operational independence is a concern, manufacturing the line-replaceable units domestically is a better investment of time and effort than hoping to reverse engineer the engine by experimentation with a stripped down unit.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Apr 2015 14:18

Sagar G wrote:
ArmenT wrote:Should point out that some people have the idea that the only reason that India isn't reverse-engineering aircraft tech is because of "dharmic reasons". There is actually a different reason why not and it has nothing to do with propriety, dharmicness or whatever (SDREs are just as unscruplous as everyone else, probably even more innovative than most, judging by news reports of cribbing techniques used ). The real reason is because it isn't easy to reverse-engineer a jet engine. PERIOD.

People seem to think that if you have an existing engine, a measuring tape and a set of vernier calipers, you can simply measure out the parts and then manufacture your own. Doesn't work that way with modern jet engines. Along with the shape of the part, you also need to know metallurgy, heat treatment, jigs and fixtures, sequence of assembly, calibration, maintenance schedules etc. and without knowledge of all that stuff, your jet engine isn't going to work at all.

This is the reason why you don't find Khyber pass gunsmiths or Chinese factories manufacturing a GE-404 engine, even though they have had plenty of opportunities to examine them closely. It isn't a 5 year job or even a 20 year job, otherwise we'd have seen one powering Chinese jets by now. Israelis had to steal the plans from SNECMA to manufacture their version for their Kfir (Mirage clone).

Viv S wrote:So you severely doubt that we can build the spares domestically, but are confident that we can reverse engineer the engine in 4-5 years?
Posted previously here by Vipul

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1732019

The last Jet-Engine laugh

It was in 1998, close to a decade after several such collaborative efforts were established and Phase 1 of the undertaking was apace, that Indian ingenuity was really tested. On May 11 and 13, Atal Behari Vajpayee's National Democratic Alliance government ordered the detonation of one fusion and five fission devices at the Pokhran Test Range, Rajasthan. Two months later, after an incensed US administration declared punitive sanctions against India, the avionics engineers were evicted from Lockheed Martin's New York facility, with the LCA's fly-by-wire system far from complete. "But they came back home and built the whole thing themselves," said Dr Arunachalam. "We'd also managed to keep one of the 11 GE engines," added Air Marshal Rajkumar. "Our scientists stripped the thing down to its bones and reverse engineered it from scratch."
Still doubt the possibility of it being done ???

Edit:- Just realised the spin done by Viv S to what I actually posted, you almost got me !!!

Rajkumars book has more details on this. It was not reverse engineering the engine, but a more modest though significant effort in fliqht qualifying the engine. The GTRE guys without OEM (GE) assistance, stripped the engine, certified it, and had it flight capable. Usually that requires complete hand holding by the OEM.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Apr 2015 14:25

since airbus and boeing outsource complete sections of the planes to partners, there must be a way in which the 1000s of wires that run around, are colour coded on both sides, tagged and then joined together with two-way secure plugs when final assembly is done . just bolting a bare shell together and then spending months and months wiring it up is not that efficient.

modular construction has been successfully used in things as complex as submarines. pipes are made to align to less than 1mm to mate properly with its continuation in the next section.
astute class http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi ... /img/4.jpg

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 19 Apr 2015 15:28

Sagar G wrote: Did I say or indicate anywhere in my post that reverse engineering would be an easy job ??? It will take 4-5 yrs. atleast and given the production plan of Mk.2 and the size of the engine order we have enough time to achieve the same. I severely doubt that the tech. to produce each and every spare domestically will be shared by USA because then they will lose the leverage to harass India w.r.t. Tejas and also end up sharing tech which they don't want to in the first place. Given the backstabbing ******** we know USA is I don't see why we should not start a reverse engineering program right now and when successful kick USA out of the program for good.

OK, 4-5 years for reverse engineering a jet tech is too optimisitic, even if you spend entire DRDO budget and manpower only on this one task.

Even for GE/PW/RR it take more than 4-5 years just to come up with an engine which is mere scale-up/scale-down of existing engine. Even new engine is never really a new one but only part of it is new tech. And please remember this time frame is when a lot of parts are outsourced in risk-sharing partnerships with tier-I suppliers, meaning they design those parts from scratch and the OEM just takes them and fits in the engine. So OEMs do not even do detail designs for all the components. All the major components of a jet engine individually take 4-5 years to design and certify. This is when these OEMs/tier-I companies already have well oiled tools for the complete process (design process/software tools which themselves are developed over decades). Even a company like Volvo Aero cannot design compressor for new engine despite doing a lot of rigging on F404 compressor to arrive at RM-12 for about 2 decades now. They have almost no competency for engine core so far and GE wouldn't let them handle those parts. After 2 decades they have some confidence with only Fan module and turbine exit module.

I will give one example: After designing Turbine Exhaust Casing (least important aerodynamic component in whole engine and fairly complex but not the most challenging structurally) for almost every big engine in last two decades a certain tier-I company projected need of over $2Billion of investment for the same component to be built for new American engine over initial 5-6 years. They faltered over the challenge (both technical and economic) and pulled out of the project (In comparison GTRE built complete engine in less than a billion dollars!!).

This is only about design. The less I talk about manufacturing the better.

My point - Let's be realistic about technical things at least.

And you are quite right sharing tech. GE will never part with engine core technology. They didn't share any critical tech with Sweden why should they do it with India?? We need our own engine in our own fighters at any cost!! GOI should pump in big bucks and enlarge size of GTRE. Make them the OEM of Jet engines and they then delegate parts to private companies as tier-I companies along with as much competencies they can transfer. GOI should give as much RnD money to those pvt companies as those companies are willing to bring to the table from their own pockets. We need to not only develop an engine but also the eco-system which can produce then like sausages in the time of need.

Also I do not think we are in a position to blatantly reverse engineer technology like China does. We still do not have enough geopolitic and economic leverage that China has today, especially with US and Russia. Both of them are quite dependent on China economically. Also we are much more transparent as a system than China. We will get into a lot of legal/political trouble with reverse engineering. But I am of the opinion that we should do it wherever possible.

If you ask me, we don't need it that much. We are not puting enough money and man-power and expecting do wonders which is not possible. If as a nation we put more money in RnD we could overtake the west in about 2 decades in jet technology.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 19 Apr 2015 15:59

Sagar G wrote:
Obviously you have all the right to doubt the success of the programme but what I fail to understand is why some people start shouting PHAILURE PHAILURE !!! ABSOLUTE PHAILURE !!! INDIAN SCIENTISTS MURDABAAD !!! even before a program has been attempted ??? Merely a proposal to attempt something so as to beak the technological choke hold is drawing snarks !!!

You pretty well know the reason for this.Sadly though, you are right.If India achieves technological breakthrough on its own or by reverse engineer a profitable market will be gone but also cause lots of pain to echendee. As of now India was not able to do all this because of many factors including best brains drained. but if it is done and successfully by left behind five point someone talent it would cause massive khujali, so to speak. The idea is to be nipped in the bud. What happens to Indian market and how do they sale our wares if we breakout of the technological logjam. China has no such concern. Their NRCs study and work for 10+ years in US ( meanwhile copying relevant infos) and come back with knowledge to help china. This is what NaMo pointed out in Germany.

If LCA is successfully inducted and production line setup it will equally cause massive khujali to those who are peddling their phaarin wares.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 19 Apr 2015 16:04

Viv S wrote:
Sagar G wrote:Did I say or indicate anywhere in my post that reverse engineering would be an easy job ??? It will take 4-5 yrs. atleast and given the production plan of Mk.2 and the size of the engine order we have enough time to achieve the same. I severely doubt that the tech. to produce each and every spare domestically will be shared by USA because then they will lose the leverage to harass India w.r.t. Tejas and also end up sharing tech which they don't want to in the first place. Given the backstabbing ******** we know USA is I don't see why we should not start a reverse engineering program right now and when successful kick USA out of the program for good.
So you severely doubt that we can build the spares domestically, but are confident that we can reverse engineer the engine in 4-5 years?

I think what he is telling is that USA will not share the tech, even for building the spares indigenously, and for the efforts required for the same we can reverse engineer many techs including engines. And kick USa out of all this. Of course you would not like it.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 19 Apr 2015 16:06

ArmenT wrote: Israelis had to steal the plans from SNECMA to manufacture their version for their Kfir (Mirage clone).

Finally a good idea. Everything is fair in war and sanctions. Anyone ??

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Apr 2015 16:11

Singha wrote:since airbus and boeing outsource complete sections of the planes to partners, there must be a way in which the 1000s of wires that run around, are colour coded on both sides, tagged and then joined together with two-way secure plugs when final assembly is done . just bolting a bare shell together and then spending months and months wiring it up is not that efficient.

modular construction has been successfully used in things as complex as submarines. pipes are made to align to less than 1mm to mate properly with its continuation in the next section.
astute class http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi ... /img/4.jpg

there were no clear instructions to do so.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Apr 2015 19:48

oops i guess you mean they should do it now. and not the engine then..

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 19 Apr 2015 20:31

while outsourcing by HAL is fine, a second production line should be with the private sector maybe few years down the line, HAL only benchmark for production nos doesn't work as much as Mr. Parrikar wants to push.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 19 Apr 2015 20:31

Are LCA drop tanks made of composites?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Apr 2015 20:33

chaanakya wrote:
ArmenT wrote: Israelis had to steal the plans from SNECMA to manufacture their version for their Kfir (Mirage clone).
Finally a good idea. Everything is fair in war and sanctions. Anyone ??

The israelis didn't steal any plans. Recent leaks showed the french transferred the plans to israel. For plausible deniability both sides came up with the entire stolen plans stuff. In a museum in Israel, the first "indigenous" Kfirs were shown to have license codes indicating they were full of Dassault manufactured parts & it was basically TOT/license assembly with customization for Israel.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 19 Apr 2015 20:37

about supplier relia.ility...for engiines....
cant the problem be mitigated by buying extra spares and possibly spare engines too? it will certainly drive the cost of the lca up but certainly not prohibitively....an extra five mill per unit should do it

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Apr 2015 20:45

we need to do it anyway for war reserve engines and spares. only the worst AF's buy as many engines and ac, the good ones buy a lot more.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 19 Apr 2015 21:00

Sagar G wrote:
ArmenT wrote:Yes. I'll believe it when I see it. Until then, you can call me a doubting thomas.
Obviously you have all the right to doubt the success of the programme but what I fail to understand is why some people start shouting PHAILURE PHAILURE !!! ABSOLUTE PHAILURE !!! INDIAN SCIENTISTS MURDABAAD !!! even before a program has been attempted ??? Merely a proposal to attempt something so as to beak the technological choke hold is drawing snarks !!!

All I'm saying is that your hope of 4-5 years estimate to reverse-engineer a jet engine sounds rather optimistic, given the problems of reverse engineering that I outlined above. Nothing to do with Indian scientists skills or whatever (which I didn't mention even ONCE in my post). They are welcome to try to reverse-engineer the engine, but IMHO their efforts are probably better spent building their own engine and building the ecosystem (i.e. all the subcontractors) around it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Apr 2015 21:26

I too doubt if they managed to reverse engineer the GE-404 most likely what he meant probably is they disassembled studied the engine and assembled it back.

Metallurgy is very complex and unless you know the composition of metal in precise percentage and the process followed to build it along with the machinery needed you cant get it done , Even Chinese couldnt reverse engineer AL-31 having it now for more than 2 decades and they import it.

Also reverse engineer generally ends up being worse or in best case equal and you can never have an original idea or out of box thinking if all you learn is reverse engineering , it better to learn to build our own engine , fail , build it , fail again till we succeed it would take decades but that experience would be worth in gold or platinum.

We would probably end up learning much more failing to build a flight qualified Kaveri then suceeding in reverse enginieering a GE or Snemeca or some other engine.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 19 Apr 2015 21:59

Karan M wrote:
chaanakya wrote:
Finally a good idea. Everything is fair in war and sanctions. Anyone ??
The israelis didn't steal any plans. Recent leaks showed the french transferred the plans to israel. For plausible deniability both sides came up with the entire stolen plans stuff. In a museum in Israel, the first "indigenous" Kfirs were shown to have license codes indicating they were full of Dassault manufactured parts & it was basically TOT/license assembly with customization for Israel.

Even better. Who knows what NaMo has worked with French and Dassault.