Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Jul 2015 19:01

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 71131.aspx

China's submarine force four times that of India and growing

Chaitanya Mallapur, Indiaspend.com
| Updated: Jul 20, 2015 11:58 IST

India’s first Scorpene submarine, which can carry 18 torpedoes and travel 1,020 kilometres underwater, was floated at the Mazagon Docks in Mumbai. (Pratham Gokhale/HT photo)

A recent visit by an advanced Chinese Yuan-class submarine to Karachi, Pakistan, after traversing the Arabian Sea, worried Indian authorities concerned about China’s growing undersea-warfare capabilities—more than four times as large as India’s.

The submarine, with 65 crew, spent a week in Pakistan, refuelling and restocking, before sailing back to China. Yuan-class submarines are diesel-electric, but unlike Indian conventional submarines, which must surface to “breathe” and charge batteries, they are capable of staying submerged for weeks.

India now plans to lease a second nuclear attack submarine from Russia and the government has just approved a Rs 90,000-crore ($14 billion) plan to build six nuclear attack submarines in Vishakapatnam. But as Admiral P Murugesan, vice chief of naval staff, told The Economic Times last week: “We have started work, but we are still at the pen-to-paper stage.”

India is rushing to counter China by building conventional and nuclear submarines with German, French and Russian help. But China’s lead is large, growing and it plans to export its undersea expertise.

Particularly disconcerting for India are reports that China plans to sell eight Yuan-class submarines to Pakistan, at a time when Indian submarine forces are, according to this report, in “a state of crisis” and the country jittery about Chinese submarine power.

A conventional Chinese submarine berthed at Colombo’s port twice during 2014, sparking concern in India, leading to a Sri Lankan assurance it would not do anything against Indian interests.

Chinese Navy clearly ahead of India

India has 14 submarines—including one nuclear attack submarine, INS Chakra, leased from Russia in 2012 for 10 years—against China’s 68 and Pakistan’s five.

Most of India’s conventional submarines are more than 20 years old and are reaching the end of their service life, according to this report by the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence (2014-15), which said it was “dismayed” at the “snail-pace” of commissioning naval vessels.

The Indian Navy has commissioned two submarines and decommissioned five submarines over the last 15 years, Defence Minister Manohar Parikkar said in a reply to the Rajya Sabha.

China launched or commissioned more than 60 naval ships and crafts in 2014. A similar number is expected through the end of 2015.

The Indian Navy has 141 vessels, including 127 surface ships and 14 submarines. The Chinese Navy has more than 300 surface combatants, submarines, amphibious ships and missile-armed patrol craft.

Under the sea too, Chinese superiority

The Chinese submarine force currently includes 59 conventional or diesel-electric attack submarines and nine nuclear submarines. Of the nine nuclear submarines, five are nuclear attack submarines and four are ballistic-missile submarines.

Nuclear-powered submarines are of two types: attack submarines (SSN) and fleet ballistic missile submarines (SSBN).

Attack submarines are smaller and faster compared to their ballistic-missile counterparts. SSNs are designed to attack enemy ships and submarines using torpedoes and shore facilities with cruise missiles with conventional high-explosive warheads. SSBNs carry ballistic missiles with nuclear warheads.

India’s first nuclear submarine was leased in 1988 from the Russian Navy and returned in 1991. The present nuclear submarine, INS Chakra, is considered one of the deadliest non-American attack boats in the world.

India has 9 Sindhughosh-class or Kilo-class diesel-electric submarines. They were built under a contract between Russia’s Rosvooruzhenie and the Indian Ministry of Defence. The other four are German-made Shishumar-class diesel-electric submarines (Type 1500).

India strives to expand submarine fleet

India plans to add 15 submarines: six conventional French-designed submarines, build six nuclear attack submarines (as we said earlier) and three nuclear ballistic-missile submarines.

The plan to build six French-designed Scorpene-class submarines is called Project 75. The first diesel-electric submarine of this class—INS Kalvari—was launched on April 6 2015 and is expected to be inducted into the Navy by 2016. The other five will be delivered to the Navy by 2020.

The Scorpene is a state-of-the-art conventional submarine, which incorporates advanced stealth characteristics that make detection difficult. The submarine features anti-ship missiles and advanced torpedoes.

Two submarines are to be built at the collaborator’s yard abroad (DCNS, France) and four within the country (three at Mazgaon Dock, Mumbai and one at Hindustan Shipyard, Vishakapatnam).

India’s first indigenously built nuclear-propelled strategic submarine, INS Arihant (Destroyer of the enemy), was launched in 2009 and is currently under trial. The SSBN gives India a nuclear triad of missiles that can be launched by air, from land and under the sea.

Another indigenous SSBN, INS Aridhaman, is also under construction, and work on a third will start soon, according to this report.

China already has three Jin-class SSBNs in service, according to this report, and may have eight in service by 2020.

A cheaper, quicker option: grow anti-submarine capabilities

To counter China’s growing submarine clout, the defence ministry on July 14, 2015, cleared a proposal to purchase four US-built P-8I long-range, anti-submarine warfare (ASW) maritime patrol aircraft.

India already has five such aircraft, according to this report.

In May 2015, INS Kavaratti, a fourth indigenously-built ASW corvette, was launched. It has state-of-art weapons and sensors, including a medium-range gun, torpedo tube, rocket launchers and a helicopter.

India is in the process of finalising a contract with the US’ Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation for 16 S-70B ASW choppers. The deal has been pending for the last 15 years.

Most Indian ships lack ASW helicopters at a time of China’s growing under-sea dominance.

This story was first published in IndiaSpend, a data-driven, public-interest journalism non-profit initiative.

Related news:
http://www.ibtimes.com/russia-orders-su ... al-2015061

Russia Orders 'Submarine-Killer' Be-200 Amphibious Aircraft For Production By 2020, Official Says
By Thomas Barrabi 

http://ajw.asahi.com/article/asia/aroun ... 1507200055
Philippines, Vietnam reviving Cold War bases to combat China’s naval expansion
July 20, 2015

John · Post by **John** » 20 Jul 2015 20:17

Viv S wrote: The Barak 1 is a VL-SAM. And the same silos could also accommodate the Barak-8 in a Shivalik-derivative.

Barak-8 and Barak-1 use completely different VL launchers, Barak-1 requires relatively little deck penetration and easy to refit onto existing vessels. Barak-8 launcher is about the size of Sylver vls cells.

They can be equipped with a Barak VLS module for a basic air defence roles. And at Rs 7000 crore for four corvettes, they're far cheaper too.

IMO i don't think they will ever be equipped with Barak it would require refit and tricky integration with 3D Car. Besides i do i think its meant to have Maitri but with that in limbo i do not know where that leaves P-28s.

Talwars built in Russia take only 2.5 years. One hopes that Pip's delivery time will be around at least 3 years per ship.

Unlikely even Teg took about 4-5 years to be built i do not know how Pip can achieve that in 3 years..

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Jul 2015 20:30

Viv S wrote:
Rahul M wrote: nope. both have the shtil-1 as primary SAM. we are not talking of point defence barak's here.
The Barak 1 is a VL-SAM.

which part of " shtil-1 as primary SAM" was incomprehensible ?
barak-1 is not its primary AD weapon and the use of shtil launcher makes it vulnerable.

And the same silos could also accommodate the Barak-8 in a Shivalik-derivative.

are you sure ?

John · Post by **John** » 20 Jul 2015 20:32

^ Snowball chance in hell of that happening especially if one of earlier report is accurate and same launcher can also be used for Barak-8 ER (which is a shtil size missile). You are talking about something that is 6-7 meters long. But in other hand it would interesting if Barak-8 launcher can dual or quad pack barak and C-Dome missiles.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Jul 2015 20:37

^^ the later is a possibility, the former, an impossibility.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jul 2015 20:42

Well, if you are wiiling to pay 3 billion instead of 700 million (price for 3 for RuNavy), at least you expect speedy delivery

Absolutely, that is one angle.

However, the delta there is also because of lack of thinking years ago - the tax being paid on that. Perhaps it is much better to pay the billions now so that 30 years from it does not become trillions?

The point being that the "Make in India" is an effort - hopefully successful - to correct the thinking.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jul 2015 22:10

China to send ships to Indian fleet review

Rahul Bedi, New Delhi - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

China's People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) has confirmed its participation in the Indian Navy's (IN's) second International Fleet Review at Vishakhapatnam in February 2016, IN officials said.

"China will take part in the fleet review with ships and a delegation, but details are being worked out," IN spokesman Captain D K Sharma told IHS Jane's on 20 July.

The PLAN did not attend the IN's first fleet review in Mumbai in February 2001 but the IN did take part in one to mark the PLAN's 65th anniversary in Qingdao in April 2014, sending first-of-class frigate INS Shivalik , which also participated in two days of maritime exercises that followed.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 20 Jul 2015 22:31

Every other day we have an article posted which warns about the threat from the huge Chinese submarine force. And we still have the usual suspect arguing that building Krivaks (at $1 billion ea. no less) is a good idea instead of an Indian design (which we already have experience building) with twice the ASW capability and better endurance. I can only imagine the uproar if these hadn't been Russian ships we were speaking of.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jul 2015 00:03

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 147078.cms
A recent visit by an advanced Chinese Yuan-class submarine to Karachi after traversing the Arabian Sea worried Indian authorities concerned about China's growing undersea-warfare capabilities — more than four times as large as India's.

Some of these are pointing again to our "reactive mindsets", and fail to understand the implications of "thinking big" as Bade rightly pointed out few pages back. He did not muster enough BRF supporters (at least in my understanding, ignoring those who nodded but never responded).. and these are actually the subliminal aspects that keeps us below the P6 levels ever. We are not thinking big to acting big.. and at the same time, we get easily sidelined by superiority in some field vs. another., and ignoring the attitude correction for getting our acts straight even as arm chair specialists.

I think, these are very reminiscent offshoots of what see, hear and read on oped news makers and traders., but hiding is the big security threat that might make 1962 minuscule skirmish. The point being, we always doubt and must prove the requirements for change and thinking big and out of the box [unobtainium wish->unobtainable requirements]. Another point, we blatantly ignore such things are out of India's reach.. we are small onlee attitude.

Particularly disconcerting for India are reports that China plans to sell eight Yuan-class submarines to Pakistan, at a time when Indian submarine forces are, according to this report, in "a state of crisis" and the country jittery about Chinese submarine power.

well.. it might not just disconcerting here, but actually throwing open what UPA3 and 4 can bring down upon us in the future.. it is not enough to be feeling shocked and doing nothing about it... or cutting our legs for the smaller shoe foot print we are only budgeted for. our enemies don't think that way, nor will., and we will take another big hit to realize only after that.. and by that time, the enemy has become a giant!

A cheaper, quicker option: grow anti-submarine capabilities

To counter China's growing submarine clout, the defence ministry on July 14, 2015, cleared a proposal to purchase four more US-built P-8I long-range, anti-submarine warfare (ASW) maritime patrol aircraft.

It might appear cheaper and quicker option, but ASW never will do a surface and sub-surface platform can do. there may be stealthier versions to avoid detection even to next generation of wireless techniques. This sort of analysis will only lead to making the $ecurity hole more deep and dark.

/rant

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 21 Jul 2015 00:25

Rahul M wrote:which part of " shtil-1 as primary SAM" was incomprehensible ?
barak-1 is not its primary AD weapon and the use of shtil launcher makes it vulnerable.

Not incomprehensible. Just invisible. This is your original post -

the talwars and the shivaliks dont even have VLS SAM's, still depending on an antiquated launching system with a very limited capability missile to boot.

Nothing about primary and secondary AD weapons in there.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 21 Jul 2015 01:14

John wrote:Barak-8 and Barak-1 use completely different VL launchers, Barak-1 requires relatively little deck penetration and easy to refit onto existing vessels. Barak-8 launcher is about the size of Sylver vls cells.

If you scroll up you'll see I referred specifically to a Shivalik-derivative i.e. a new ship built at Pipavav based on the Shivalik. Not a retrofit of the existing Shivaliks.

IMO i don't think they will ever be equipped with Barak it would require refit and tricky integration with 3D Car. Besides i do i think its meant to have Maitri but with that in limbo i do not know where that leaves P-28s.

Again, the context was the capability of a ship that we can build rather than the modification of a type already in service. And having a new-build P-28A equipped with Barak 1 module is hardly a stretch.

John · Post by **John** » 21 Jul 2015 01:48

Viv S wrote:If you scroll up you'll see I referred specifically to a Shivalik-derivative i.e. a new ship built at Pipavav based on the Shivalik. Not a retrofit of the existing Shivaliks.

Not sure i follow you regardless of whether it is new Shivalik or not, Barak-1 launchers cannot be fitted with Barak-8. Off topic but i think i have discussed before my idea for improved Shivalik:

EL/M-2238 replacing Fregat in top mast
3D Car replacing LW-08
24 cell Barak-8 SAM system in place of Shtil-1
8 cell L&T UVLS with Brahmos (instead of Klub)

Viv S wrote:Again, the context was the capability of a ship that we can build rather than the modification of a type already in service. And having a new-build P-28A equipped with Barak 1 module is hardly a stretch.

Not that i am disagreeing, Just pointing out that P-28s seemed to designed with Maitri or SRSAM etc down the road not for Barak-1. Yes that is a possibility but that would require integration of 3D CAR or switch to Israeli 2238 radar.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 21 Jul 2015 02:32

Indian Naval Indigenization Plan: Missile, arrestor wire in Navy's list for India Inc

NEW DELHI: Aiming to have 200 ships by 2030, Navy has come out with an exhaustive list of products -- from surface-to-air missiles for warships to air independent propulsion system for submarines -- that can be indigenised, and will share it with Indian industries.

Products in need include items as complex as surface-to- air missiles for warships and air independent propulsion system for submarines to less daunting arrestor wires for slight operations on aircraft carriers.

The 'Indian Naval Indigenization Plan 2015-2030' will now be shared with India Inc, chambers of commerce and will also be uploaded on the Indian Navy's website.

The entire list has been divided into three segments that make up a warship -- float, move and fight.

According to a study conducted by Navy, India has achieved an indigenisation of 90 per cent in the float segment. In the move segment, India has achieved 60 per cent of indigenisation and just 30-40 per cent in the fight ..........
:
:

arnabh · Post by **arnabh** » 21 Jul 2015 06:21

With six new Nuclear Attack Submarines, India officially opens up on its undersea aspirations
http://defencenews.in/defence-news-inte ... x2xNYxMHw=

sum · Post by **sum** » 21 Jul 2015 08:32

The 'Indian Naval Indigenization Plan 2015-2030' will now be shared with India Inc, chambers of commerce and will also be uploaded on the Indian Navy's website.

The entire list has been divided into three segments that make up a warship -- float, move and fight.

Have the IA and the IAF ever made such a plan and brought out in public?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 21 Jul 2015 08:35

Yes they have - buy! Buy! buy! From mother Russia!!!

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 21 Jul 2015 08:41

^Don't forget the the french hag.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Jul 2015 09:07

sum wrote:
The 'Indian Naval Indigenization Plan 2015-2030' will now be shared with India Inc, chambers of commerce and will also be uploaded on the Indian Navy's website.

The entire list has been divided into three segments that make up a warship -- float, move and fight.
Have the IA and the IAF ever made such a plan and brought out in public?

And people wonder why the a majority of BRF its hold the fleet in such high esteem.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 21 Jul 2015 10:21

sum wrote:
The 'Indian Naval Indigenization Plan 2015-2030' will now be shared with India Inc, chambers of commerce and will also be uploaded on the Indian Navy's website.

The entire list has been divided into three segments that make up a warship -- float, move and fight.
Have the IA and the IAF ever made such a plan and brought out in public?

Of course they do. As soon as $#@$%% country displays the prototype of a new "super"system IA / IAF will say that this is absolutely required or else......

......... if Papua, New Zealand or Greenland will attack us and we will not be able to defend ourselves.

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 21 Jul 2015 10:22

Pratyush wrote:
sum wrote: The 'Indian Naval Indigenization Plan 2015-2030' will now be shared with India Inc, chambers of commerce and will also be uploaded on the Indian Navy's website.

The entire list has been divided into three segments that make up a warship -- float, move and fight.
Have the IA and the IAF ever made such a plan and brought out in public?
And people wonder why the a majority of BRF its hold the fleet in such high esteem.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 21 Jul 2015 10:23

sum wrote:
The 'Indian Naval Indigenization Plan 2015-2030' will now be shared with India Inc, chambers of commerce and will also be uploaded on the Indian Navy's website.

The entire list has been divided into three segments that make up a warship -- float, move and fight.
Have the IA and the IAF ever made such a plan and brought out in public?

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 21 Jul 2015 10:31

Why the comparison between Indigenous Navy and Imported Army along with Imported Air Force ?
BTW , it's time to pump some big money to develop engines for the imported forces . Developing desi engines for planes and ships should be a high priority.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Jul 2015 10:41

It is a high priority already. The problem is the lack of orders for domestic stuff to use those engines, makes the engine development un viable.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Jul 2015 10:43

I don't see Western nations queuing up to offer us their latest attack N-boats and helping us in the SSBN programme unlike "Mother Russia",or should we say instead, "Father Putin"!

Yes,the IN is way ahead of the other two services in becoming self-reliant in defence eqpt.,and I think is being rewarded for this by the new dispensation,if you look at the crucial decisions that have been made for the IN's re-equipment plans and further growth. It is in the latter two areas,"move and fight",that much challenges lie ahead. We don't make any marine engines whatsoever ,baring some diesels made under licence. The marine version of Kaveri,much spoken about some years ago appears to have "sunk" like a stone. GTs are still being acquired from the UKR,Russia and GE/US.

As for weaponry,the first steps have been taken with the two JVs for BMos and Barak-8.Our torpedo dev. is taking shape,but the goal should towards developing more futuristic weaponry like the US's rail gun and lasers. The "fight" aspect also covers sensors,sonars,EW,etc.,where we have a long way to go.Here too,instead of reinventing the wheel,we should embark upon as many JVs as poss. to cut dev. time and see that these key components are developed on time so as to be fitted onto warships and subs within the specified timeframe.

Here is one new dev. by the USN worth emulating.The Russians have their own similar programmes for UAVs and UUVs.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -time.html
US submarine deploys undersea drone in military operation for the first time
Underwater drone launched from submarine during a deployment in the Mediterranean Sea

Xcpt:

The underwater drone was launched from a shelter attached to the top of the submarine that can also be used to deploy divers and special forces.

The military has used undersea drones for years to detect mines and map the ocean floor. It has been researching how to use them more for other purposes including intelligence gathering.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 21 Jul 2015 14:23

Full article from Janes -

India requests overseas design help for second indigenous carrier

The Indian Navy (IN) has invited responses by 22 July from overseas contractors to assist in designing a 65,000-tonne aircraft carrier, industry sources said.
The IN sent a letter of request (LoR) to BAE Systems, DCNS, Lockheed Martin, and Rosoboronexport on 15 July. It requires them to provide technical and costing proposals for the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier-2 (IAC-2) within a week.
On 17 July a BAE Systems spokesperson in New Delhi confirmed receipt of the LoR two days earlier.
IN sources said the LoR follows the 13 May allocation to the IN of INR300 million (USD4.83 million) by the ministry of defence (MoD) to begin concept work on IAC-2, likely to be named Vishal (Grand).
According to the LoR, the IAC-2 is envisaged as a 300 m-long flattop vessel with a catapult-assisted take-off but arrested recovery (CATOBAR) capability that can embark around 35 fighters and 20 helicopters.
The LoR also includes the option of the IAC-2 being fitted with General Atomics' Electro Magnetic Aircraft Launched System (EMALS) that will equip the US Navy's (USN's) Gerald Ford-class carrier, which is due to be commissioned in 2016.
While the IN envisages the carrier having a top speed of around 30 kt, the LoR does not specify the IAC-2's propulsion system - whether nuclear, conventional diesel or gas turbine - nor the type or class of combat aircraft that will comprise its air group, but invites recommendations.
Directorate of Naval Design (DND) architects said the installation of EMALS would enable the IAC-2 to launch fighters heavier than the IN's MiG-29Ks in addition to airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) platforms and unmanned combat air vehicles (UCAVs).
An evaluation of all such platforms is under way for the IAC-2, DND sources said.
Around 20 MiG-29K fighters are embarked on INS Vikramaditya (ex- Admiral Gorshkov ), the 44,750 tonne refurbished Kiev-class carrier that joined Indian service in January 2014.
An equal number comprise the air group of Vikrant , the 40,000 tonne Project 71 IAC-1 that was floated out at Cochin Shipyard Limited in June and is scheduled for commissioning in 2018.
To date the IN has acquired 45 MiG-29Ks for around USD2.8 billion, deliveries of which will be completed by 2016-17.

Comment

Debate is under way within the DND about the IAC-2's proposed CATOBAR configuration - a radical departure from the 'ski jump' platforms that the IN has operated for more than five decades - its propulsion system and fighter complement.
Senior DND officials told IHS Jane's that it would take six to seven years to finalise the IAC-2's design details, identify a shipyard to build it locally and to develop its capacity to construct such a large vessel. None of the existing Indian shipyards is capable of building a 65,000 tonne warship without substantial expansion.
Meanwhile, in January the IN and USN established a working group of naval architects and technicians, which met recently, to further co-operation in aircraft carrier technology.
The United States is seeking to provide the EMALS capability through the recently launched bilateral Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) that involves the transfer of 17 major technologies to India for co-development and co-production.
Industry sources said this aspect was discussed during US defence secretary Ashton Carter's visit to India in June, which included a trip to the IN's Eastern Command at Vishakhapatnam.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jul 2015 15:52

that chakra-3 is 200mw nuke powered.. almost coming near to 300mw ATWR at kalpakkam (oh well, with a diff of 100Mw nearer

). the point I am making is, further miniaturization efforts done on this front can be learned by India too., by re-inventing the wheels and first principles.

why always seek external help!? this beats the heck outta jingoism. especially for designing that has been already designed by many? 65kton!? this is not uss stennis!

btw, a nice paper that is a must read to think big!
http://web.mit.edu/12.000/www/m2018/pdf ... horium.pdf

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Jul 2015 21:08

The ghost of Gorshkov
By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 21st July 15

If private sector is to build three more frigates, why the Talwar-class? Just boost the Project 17-A order

The Indian Navy, clearly, has an appetite for punishment. One might imagine that the nightmarish experience of refurbishing the Gorshkov --- now the aircraft carrier, INS Vikramaditya --- in a Russian shipyard would be enough to forestall any more such warship building projects. But no! Although the Gorshkov took more than twice the contracted time (118 months instead of 52 months) and almost thrice the contracted cost ($2.3 billion instead of $947 million), the navy now wants to involve itself in building three Russian Talwar-class frigates.

Frigates are versatile, multi-role warships of 4,000-6,000 tonnes that can deal with threats from the air (fighters and missiles), surface (missiles and guns) and underwater (submarines). The navy is 61 vessels short of its planned strength of 198 warships and this shortfall is most keenly felt in capital warships like frigates, the business end of any navy, with their ability to operate independently in the face of multi-dimensional threats. But there are capacity limitations to building more frigates in India: our yards that can do so are already stretched to capacity. Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai (MDL) and Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers, Kolkata (GRSE) have orders for building seven Project-17A frigates in India. So the navy has proposed that Yantar Shipyard, located in Kaliningrad, Russia, should tie up with an Indian private sector shipyard to build three Talwar-class frigates in India, to add to six such frigates procured from Russia earlier.

To be sure, the navy’s experience with the Talwar-class (Russian name: Krivak-III; or Project 1135.6) has been more reassuring than building the Gorshkov. The six Talwar-class warships were delivered at the price contracted and with less than a year of delay. The first tranche of three frigates (INS Talwar, Trishul and Tabar) was contracted in 1997 for about one billion dollars and delivered between 2003-04. The second tranche of three (INS Teg, Tarkash and Trikand) was contracted in 2006 and delivered in 2012-13 for a slightly higher price.

But the proposed third tranche has a less than wholesome odour, and not just because they are at least twice the cost. In December, Russian president Vladimir Putin urged Prime Minister Narendra Modi to take three Talwar-class frigates off Russia’s hands for three entirely self-serving reasons. First, Yantar shipyard has six frigates languishing in various stages of build, but the Russian Navy wants just three. Yantar began building six because Moscow was certain it could persuade perpetual-buyer India of the need for another three frigates. Second, the frigates that languish in Yantar have no power plants (engines). Ukraine has refused to supply Russia the Zorya gas turbines that power earlier Talwar-class frigates, and which were contracted for this batch too. Ukraine’s refusal comes after Moscow’s military adventure in Ukraine and its annexation of the Crimea. Squeezing another power plant into the Talwar-class hulls would involve major re-engineering. India, on the other hand, with strong defence ties with Ukraine, could obtain Zorya turbines without much problem. Thirdly, even though Moscow’s proposal has been cloaked in the rhetoric of “Make in India”, the Talwar-class features mainly Russian systems, sensors and weapons, which cannot be changed without adversely impacting on delivery time lines.

To select an Indian partner shipyard, Yantar experts have toured, and approved, at least three Indian shipyards --- Larsen & Toubro’s new Katupalli shipyard, near Ennore; Pipavav Shipyard in Gujarat, recently taken over by Anil Ambani’s Reliance Infrastructure; and Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL). It is unclear whether the build plan involves transporting three partly built hulls from Russia to India and finishing the construction here; or whether it is planned to build three frigates in India, ground-up. Either way, the ghost of Gorshkov looms over this hare-brained project.

There is no convincing reason for New Delhi to contemplate a government-to-government proposal with Moscow, in which competitive tendering is abandoned, and a foreign design adopted, to build the Talwar class in India. Instead, the navy, with its proud tradition of developing and building Indian-designed-and-built frigates, should insist on another three Project 17-A frigates, to add to the seven that are slated to start construction shortly.

Even the predecessors of Project 17-A --- the three 5,600-tonne Shivalik-class frigates built under Project 17 --- are regarded as superior to the Talwar-class. Project 17-A will obviously be another notch ahead. Like the Shivalik-class, Project 17-A frigates would embark two medium helicopters, greatly enhancing their anti-submarine and airborne early warning capability. Much of the weaponry that will equip Project 17-A frigates is indigenously built, including rocket launchers, Brahmos cruise missiles and the world-class Long-Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LR-SAM). Vitally, the indigenous frigates would have secure Indian-designed electronic warfare (EW) systems and a tested indigenous “combat management system”, the computer brain that controls the frigate’s arsenal in battle. The levels of “Make in India” achievable in Project 17-A could never be matched whilst building the Talwar-class in India (see chart below). Furthermore, adding another three frigates to the seven already being built under Project 17-A would enhance economies of scale, reducing per-unit price of the frigate. And, with the Directorate General of Naval Design having already finalised much of Project 17-A’s design, build time would be greatly reduced, eroding one of the key arguments presented to justify buying the Talwar-class.
Code: Select all
Parameter                              | Russian 1135.6              | Project 17-A
                                       | (Talwar Class)              | (Shivalik follow-on) 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Displacement                           | 4,000 tonnes                | 5,600 tonnes
Propulsion                             | Zorya gas turbine (Ukraine) | General Electric LM 2500 
                                       |                             | gas turbine (built in India)
Surface to Air Missile                 | Shtil-1                     | LR-SAM (Indo-Israeli)
Surface-to-surface missile             | Klub / Brahmos              | Brahmos (Indo-Russian)
Electronic warfare suite               | TK-25E-M (Russian)          | Ellora (Indian)
Radars                                 | Garpun-Bal                  | MF-STAR (Israeli)
                                       | Fregat M2EM                 | Fregat M2EM
                                       | Russian IFF                 | Indigenous BEL Aparna
                                       |                             | Indigenous IFF System
Guns                                   | 100 mm gun (Russian)        | Super Rapid Gun Mount 
                                       |                             | (built in India under licence)
Digital CMS (combat management system) | Tribovaniye-M (Russian)     | Indigenous CMS-17
Helicopters on board                   | One                         | Two
Ship data network                      | Not fitted                  | Indigenous AISDN
Instead of the bizarre solution of Russia deciding which Indian shipyard should build naval frigates, this should be decided through competitive tendering between Pipavav, L&T and other eligible Indian shipyards. The defence ministry must evaluate proposals, with greater indigenization being a key parameter for selection, along with a company’s track record and warship construction infrastructure. The contract should include exemplary penal clauses that impose stiff monetary penalties on delays and quality shortfalls, as well as cancellation of defence production licences for inordinate delays. The defence ministry must also promote scale manufacture by coordinating common sub-vendors for all three shipyards that would simultaneously build Project 17-A --- MDL (four ships), GRSE (three ships) and the selected private shipyard (three ships). This would also be an opportunity for a comparative evaluation of three shipyards to deliver on time, on cost and as per quality standards.

There is no war looming that forces the defence ministry into the messy business of hybrid solutions --- Russian hulls, Indian build, Russian fitments, sensors and weapons. If the ministry has a pressing compulsion, it is to demonstrate that it can, coherently and logically weave together the numerous threads of warship building into a strong fabric. Its decision on these three warships would be an important signal of intent.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 22 Jul 2015 04:27

OK, so here are more details of the proposal to refit the Kilos at Pipavav:

Chhota Bhai has moved fast, and he will get it done. I hope he gets it done right.

Pipavav to upgrade Kilo class submarines; announces agreement with Russia to make India servicing hub

Sources said that the understanding is that in the first stage, four Indian Navy Kilo class submarines will be given a second midlife upgrade that will increase their service life by 15 years. This refit contract is currently being negotiated between the Navy and the Russian government.

Once signed, the first of the four Kilo class submarines to be upgraded will be sent to Russia, where engineers and workers from Pipavav will be trained by Zvyozdochka. Work on the remaining three will then be carried out in India. While the initial contract would be for around Rs 5,000 crore, Pipavav has announced that the indicative value of work could be around Rs 11,000 crore.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 22 Jul 2015 05:08

Some more details:

Pipavav Defence joins hands with Russian ship repair firm

This is the first time the work for refit of submarines is being considered for the private sector in India.

Under the terms of the agreement, Zvyozdochka will provide complete technical assistance and support to the JV, including enhancement of infrastructure at the Pipavav Defence facilities and training of engineers. Pipavav Defence technicians will also be closely associated with the first refit to be carried out in Russia.

A refit in India has several advantages, of which the most important are savings on transportation costs to Russia and back, and the enhanced operational availability of the submarines for thousands of additional hours, by avoiding the downtime in transporting them to Russian and back.

Zvyozdochka, founded in 1954, undertakes repair and upgradation of warships and submarines of the Russian Navy.

So far, it has undertaken upgradation and refurbishment of more than 120 submarines and 90 warships.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 22 Jul 2015 05:49

Kakkaji wrote:Once signed, the first of the four Kilo class submarines to be upgraded will be sent to Russia, where engineers and workers from Pipavav will be trained by Zvyozdochka. Work on the remaining three will then be carried out in India. While the initial contract would be for around Rs 5,000 crore, Pipavav has announced that the indicative value of work could be around Rs 11,000 crore.

So $200 mil/unit just to give four ageing submarines a life extension. And here Philip has been telling us how dreadful the Scorpene & P75 deals are, since brand new Kilos are now apparently available for $300 mil each.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 22 Jul 2015 06:15

What about all the trained folks over a decade at HSL, Vizag ? What good is that investment unless used elsewhere.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 22 Jul 2015 06:21

Bade wrote:What about all the trained folks over a decade at HSL, Vizag ? What good is that investment unless used elsewhere.

They would be better utilized in building the nuke subs at HSL.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Jul 2015 06:31

Viv S wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:Once signed, the first of the four Kilo class submarines to be upgraded will be sent to Russia, where engineers and workers from Pipavav will be trained by Zvyozdochka. Work on the remaining three will then be carried out in India. While the initial contract would be for around Rs 5,000 crore, Pipavav has announced that the indicative value of work could be around Rs 11,000 crore.

So $200 mil/unit just to give four ageing submarines a life extension. And here Philip has been telling us how dreadful the Scorpene & P75 deals are, since brand new Kilos are now apparently available for $300 mil each.

I thought the Kilo upgrade were free and it was the IL-76 upgrades that were $300 mil. No?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Jul 2015 09:34

5000cr appears to be for the first 4 subs.That works out to around $200M per sub. This is around 1/3rd the cost of a new sub like the Scorpene which is around $700M now.There are 9 that will require refits/upgrades,why the total figure is 10,000cr. That would work out to $150+M/sub. Also remember that none of our Scorpenes or U-209s have an anti-ship missile like Klub that the Kilos carry. These second mid-life refits would entail complete replacement of key components,perhaps engines and other mechanical eqpt. which would've passed their useful lifespan. New combat suites,scopes,sonars,etc.part of the package. The Kilos (636.3) have been found to be excellent boats,which compare very favourably with western equivalents despite the age of the basic design.These refits will add another 10-15 years of life to the double-hulled subs ,which the Russians have found to be far more suitable than single-hulled subs,giving better quieting,battle damage,etc..

The key point about the refits is that we are desperately short of new subs,none available,Scorpene delays,P-75I a decade late in sanctioning the programme and China has 4 times as many subs as we have. Read the several articles on the comparison between the PLAN and IN's sub fleet and building plans,not to mention the PN's sub ambitions helped by China.The IN has made a serious study and determined that the Kilo refits will allow the IN to retain its 9 Kilos for at least another decade before P-75Is start arriving to replace them. Add to that the N-sub leases from Russia,SSBN and SSN plans and one will see that the two principal sub building yards,MDL and HSL have their hands full. Keeping these 9 Kilos active for another decade+ along with the U-boats-also requiring refits and the 6 Scorpenes in the pipeline,we would have around 18 conventional boats in service apart from whatever N-subs arrive.This is the bare minimum required to counter the Sino-Pak sub threat JV. The DM announced yesterday in the House that 2 PLAN subs visited Karachi within the last 2 months.

The fact that from now on these subs will be refitted over here should be a cause for applause. The principal work will be done in India and other Kilo operators like Iran,Vietnam,Algeria,etc.would prefer to send their Kilos here for reftis/repairs instead of Russia whose yards are full of orders with the expansion of the RuN especially their sub fleet,both conventional and nuclear.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2015 15:21

Some one with access to Janes can post it in full

Indian Navy announces 15-year indigenisation plan

http://www.janes.com/article/53109/indi ... ation-plan

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 22 Jul 2015 15:26

The Indian Navy (IN) announced a 15-year plan on 20 July to attain near-complete indigenisation for all its equipment requirements.
The Indian Naval Indigenisation Plan (INIP) 2015-2030 aims to locally develop and manufacture 46 types of equipment and gear required to build warships - including aircraft carriers to submarines, underwater, and sea-borne surveillance systems. It is in line with the government's 'Make in India' initiative, which is aimed at reducing materiel imports.
The plan also caters to the navy's requirements for aircraft, helicopters, and diving equipment for the first time, an IN statement declared.
The IN intends to create an "eco-system that promotes indigenous development of cutting edge military systems" by involving the state-run Defence Research and Development Organisation, domestic public and private sector manufacturers and academic institutions.
In the 'Float' or platform structure building category, in which the IN currently claims 90% indigenisation, the equipment it plans to locally develop include arrestor wires, lifts, and foldable hangar doors for aircraft carriers.
Other items include composite superstructures, long-life paint for the hull and flight deck, bow-mounted sonar domes, and glass for ships' windows.
Requirements in the 'Move' or propulsion category - where the IN's import dependency is about 50% - include gas turbines, diesel engines, gearboxes, shafting, propellers, steam generation, and air-independent propulsion equipment and motor pumps.
In the 'Fight' or weapons category - where reliance on imports is more than 70% - the navy aspires to domestically source surface-to-air missiles, light and heavyweight torpedoes, gun mounts, and surveillance and early warning radars.
Related equipment includes aviation control suites, fire-control systems, towed array, mine hunting, and portable diver sonars, global positioning and satellite communication systems, and unmanned aerial and autonomous underwater vehicles.
Under the INIP, the IN intends to design and build naval utility and multirole helicopters and install repair facilities for the IN's ageing fleet of maritime patrol aircraft and helicopters.
These include Soviet-era Tupolev Tu-142M and Ilyushin Il-38 fixed-wing aircraft and Sea King Mk 42B/C, Kamov Ka-28, and Ka-31 helicopters.
With regard to submarines the IN is locally seeking batteries, main generator and propulsion motors, integrated sonars, and assorted masts. For diving and special operations it requires night vision equipment with advanced optics, diver lamps, full face diving masks, and varied underwater vehicles.

Comment

The INIP is an extension of the IN's continuing goal of indigenising its requirements, which began more than five decades ago with the establishment of the Directorate of Naval Design (DND) in 1964.
Presently, the IN has 48 platforms - largely DND designed - under construction at private and public sector shipyards across India, including Vikrant , the 40,000-tonne aircraft carrier that is scheduled for commissioning in 2018.
The IN claims about 55% of Vikrant is indigenously sourced and it aims to increase local content in the follow-on carrier, which the DND is planning.
The Directorate of Indigenisation at the Ministry of Defence's Integrated Defence Staff headquarters will be the INIP's co-ordinating agency to "synergise efforts to meet the navy's requirements", the IN statement added.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2015 15:32

Thanks brar , another one from DNA

Indian Navy releases a 15-year-plan to turn fully Indian

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-in ... an-2106520

The Indian Navy, which is almost 70% import-dependent when it comes to main combat equipment, has come up with a 15-year plan to significantly change the numbers in favour of indigenous production and procurement.

The 'Indian Naval Indigenisation Plan (INIP) 2015-2030', which was released on Monday, also talks about bringing domestic private industries on board, in line with the 'Make in India' pitch.

In its requirement for the next 15 years, equipment listed in naval jargon as 'Fight Category' include surface-to-air missiles, surface surveillance radars, airborne early warning radars, mine-hunting sonars, torpedoes, unmanned aerial vehicles, autonomous underwater vehicles, super rapid gun mounts and others. It is in this category the dependence on import is overwhelming -- almost 70%. These weapons are procured from countries like Israel, the US and Russia.

The 'Move' category includes gas turbines, marine gearboxes, steam generation equipment and others, where the dependence on imports is about 40-50%. India largely depends on Germany, the US and Ukraine for them.

The third category, called Float, is where India has already achieved close to 90% self-sufficiency. It includes paints for underwater hull and deck, aircraft lifts, foldable aircraft hangar doors and the like.

A Rs 64,000-crore project, called P-75I, for next generation submarines to be built indigenously is already up for grabs for the domestic industry. For this project, a high-level ministry of defence (MoD) committee has identified five companies- Cochin Shipyard Ltd, Mazagon Dock Ltd, Hindustan Shipyard Ltd, Anil-Ambani owned Reliance Infrastructure, which recently bought stakes in Pipavav Defence, and Larsen & Toubro.

The Directorate of Indigenisation at the defence ministry's Integrated Headquarters in Delhi, the coordinating agency, would work closely with industry associations like the Confederation of Indian Industry (CII), Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (Ficci) and the Associated Chambers of Commerce and Industry of India (Assocham) to synergise the private companies' involvement in INIP 2015-30.

A senior naval officer told dna that the Navy has shared a note with the MoD for incorporating its suggestions in the upcoming revised Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), which is again being worked upon to boost the 'Make in India' drive in defence.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2015 15:35

I suspect the entire propulsion system too is imported ie 90 % and above , the only reason it shows 40-50 % is because these engines like LM2500 and German one built by kirloskar are lic produced in India hence counted as indiginous.

The only hope of indigenous engine is the Kaveri marine variant.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2015 15:36

Chinese Navy's missile destroyer docked at Mumbai

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-ch ... ai-2106543

Jinan, a Luyang II-class missile destroyer of Chinese Navy, on Monday docked at Mumbai harbour on a stopover while on an anti-piracy mission on the Gulf of Aden.

Defence sources said the destroyer reached the Mumbai harbour earlier in the day. The PLA Navy vessel will be leaving for Salalah in Oman on July 24.

The arrival of the Chinese vessel comes at a time when India is keeping a keen eye on the Chinese naval movement in the Indian Ocean Region. Earlier this month, a Chinese submarine had docked in Karachi, Pakistan, raising the eyebrows of the Indian security establishment.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Jul 2015 16:48

Yes,more need for the setting up of a whole new venture/establishment for engines for the needs of all 3 services. It would be like starting ISRO from scratch.

Another report on the Pip.sub refit JV:http://www.firstpost.com/business/pipav ... 54948.html

Pipavav Defence joins hands with Russia's JSC to refit submarines
Jul 21, 2015

New Delhi: Pipavav Defence and Offshore Engineering today announced the signing of a multi-crore agreement with Russia-based JSC Ship Repairing Centre Zvyozdochka for medium refits and life certification of eight EKM 877 submarines in India.

Pipavav, in which Anil Ambani-led Reliance Group is in the process of acquiring a majority stake, proposes to execute the program under a joint venture, with 51 percent stake, consistent with Ministry of Defence regulations, a company statement said.

This will also mark the first time the work for refit of submarines was being considered for the private sector in India.

The indicative value of work proposed to be undertaken by the proposed JV is approximately Rs 11,000 crore, it said.

The company said that the skills and experience developed by the JV will position Pipavav favorably for undertaking similar work for large submarine forces of similar class deployed by countries like Algeria, Vietnam and Iran, with potential additional revenues of approximately Rs 20,000 crore.

Under the terms of the agreement, Zvyozdochka will provide complete technical assistance and support to the JV, including inter alia for enhancement of infrastructure at the Pipavav facilities, training of engineers among others.
Pipavav technicians will also be closely associated with the first Refit to be carried out in Russia, it said.

"Refit and modernisation of submarines is an ongoing need for our Blue Water Navy. PDOC and Zvyozdochka are deeply committed to playing an enabling role towards enhancing Naval preparedness, which is vital for our national security," a spokesperson for Pipavav Defence & Offshore Engineering Co. Limited (PDOC) said.

A refit in India has several advantages, the most important being savings on transportation costs to Russia and back, and the enhanced operational availability of the submarines for thousands of additional hours by avoiding the downtime in transporting them to Russian and back.
Zvyozdochka, founded in 1954, is the premier ship repairing centre in Russia.

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It undertakes repair and upgrade of warships and submarines of the Russian Navy. So far, it has undertaken upgradation and refurbishment of more than 120 submarines and 90 warships.

The Zvyozdochka team had conducted a survey of all shipyards in India, both in the public and private sector, and selected PDOC as its partner on the basis of the available world class infrastructure and declared commitment of Anil Ambani-led Reliance Group to transform PDOC into the leading naval and defence shipyard in the country, the statement said.

India currently has a fleet of 9 EKM class submarines. Of these, 8 were bought during 1986-1990 and have completed 25 years of designed service life.

Refit and life extension will provide an additional 10-15 years of operational life bringing in great relief to the Navy, facing serious depletion in its underwater assets due to delays in new inductions.

Defence sources said Zvyozdochka has informed the Integrated Headquarters of Ministry of Defence (Indian Navy) about selection of PDOC as its Indian Partner for the Medium Refit and Life Certification of EKM 877 submarines in India.

Pipavav is also in talks with Russian authorities for a possible tie-up to build India's next three state-of-the-art frigates.