IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Apr 2016 07:11

Local production of US F 16 & F/A 18 not attractive: HAL Chairman Suvarna Raju

The man leading India's top military aviation company feels that the US offer to produce F 16 and F/A 18 jets in India is not attractive, as both jets failed to meet the cut at an air force competition for new fighters. The chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Suvarna Raju, says that any gaps in the fighter force can be met by shoring up production of Indian developed Light Combat Aircraft, to which the private sector can contribute 80% of parts. In an interview with ET, Raju also reveals that the government has cleared the new Light Combat Helicopter for export and talks are on with at least two nations. Excerpts:

Do you think the recent US offer for the production of F 16 and F/A 18 fighters in India are viable? Neither aircraft could win the (air force's) medium multirole combat aircraft ( MMRCA) competition. So I really don't know. It is not very attractive and I sincerely don't know how serious they are. The F 16 production has stopped and I am sure a parallel line for the F/A 18 won't be worth it. There are reports that the fighters are being considered as we may have a gap of 200 aircraft of the LCA class by 2021. If this is true, the gap can be filled up by increasing production rate of LCA. In the new defence procurement policy, an Indian designed and manufactured system has top priority which the LCA fits into and the others don't.

How involved will the private sector be in the production of the LCA aircraft in India? The first 20 aircraft will be completed by 2018, by when we have to make a Mk 1A version of the aircraft. We are ramping up production to 16 aircraft a year. We have recently issued request for quotations to the private players to supply modules like fuselage parts and wings. If we can get this from the private sector, we can increase production to 25 aircraft a year. So, we are looking for capacity augmentation with these private players. We are looking at a concept in which HAL is an integrator that has some 20% (of total) work in the hangers. The remaining 80% of work can be off loaded to the industry. If a private company for example is setting up a shop for composites manufacturing, it will be assured for business for many years.

Has there been progress on the Light Combat Helicopter? As a platform, the LCH has passed all requirements. It is now a viable platform and depending on the weapons requirement by the Army, the Air Force or another country, we will integrate them. Two countries have expressed keenness in the product and we would approach them shortly. We have got clearance from the government to export the choppers a few months ago.

What about reports of a possible IPO for HAL? I don't know where the reports have come from, as only this year we have done a share buyback from the government and `6,000 crore (including tax) has been received by the government. In my opinion, there would no IPO in the coming days, it could of course happen at a later stage.

What is the progress in setting up a new helicopter facility for engines? We are looking at a joint venture company to be formed with Turbomeca and are trying to locate a place to build a facility in Goa. This will be for work on the Shakti and 2B2 engines. We are looking to close this in not more than 60 days by choosing a place that suits us.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 15 Apr 2016 07:17

^Why would he say anything good about that proposition (it is nothing else at this point), since he won't get the contract (some pvt sector company will) and it will be competitor to whatever his company is making (LCA/Rafale - unlikely at this point) and to HAL PERMANENTLY.

On the other hand, I am pleased to see the fire that has been lit at the behind of HAL by this offer. Eager to increase production to 25 with 80% of the work done by pvt sector!!! I can hardly believe my ears. Good going for Modi/Parrikar. I never thought I would see this day.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Apr 2016 07:51

HAL chief is saying the obvious thing the aircraft that lost MMRCA competition is just making a backdoor entry.

We have Tejas in mark1 and 1A model jst ramp up the production number and if required build a production line in Pvt sector

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 15 Apr 2016 08:26

The Problem is that HAL is completely incompetent and incapable of manufacturing anything without foreign help. They still have to complete the Hanger Building in which LCA will be painted even though funds were allocated in 2001. Let pvt sector manufacture LCA in collaboration with ADA / DRDO

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 15 Apr 2016 08:38

Arun Menon wrote:On the other hand, I am pleased to see the fire that has been lit at the behind of HAL by this offer. Eager to increase production to 25 with 80% of the work done by pvt sector!!! I can hardly believe my ears. Good going for Modi/Parrikar. I never thought I would see this day.

Will keep my fingers crossed for that to happen.I am sure the 25 per year production line will not be just for 120 LCAs. We will be looking at a much larger no. including Mk2. If that happens probably BRF should have a LCA celebration party.

CT mode on: For all we know MP might be playing with all the parties including Dassault, Boeing, LM and IAF to buy time for ramping up LCA production rates and while fishing for other things e.g. injun technologies, make in india ityadi ityadi...
"maine maana kuch nahin hai ghalib Muft haath aaye to bura kya hai?
ct mode off

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Apr 2016 08:58

Gyan wrote:The Problem is that HAL is completely incompetent and incapable of manufacturing anything without foreign help. They still have to complete the Hanger Building in which LCA will be painted even though funds were allocated in 2001. Let pvt sector manufacture LCA in collaboration with ADA / DRDO

What is stopping MOD letting some competent Pvt player to have 2nd line for Tejas , if required get phoren consultancy for production management QA etc

HAL has promised some time line for Tejas lets see how their stick to it

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 15 Apr 2016 12:32

Why the big Gurus are taking about only Russian Vs Western eggs. We are missing the new boy in the block, Indian LCA.

Coming backs to eggs, we use home produced bio eggs - which are much more healthy and their quality is based on what we feed

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 15 Apr 2016 12:51

titash wrote:
Gyan wrote:Issue a reverse tender inviting proposals from Indian Companies to manufacture and provide 30 year spare part support for 100 LCA MK-2 starting from USD 15 Billion. Then we can convert Make in India to reality from a slogan.
The engine (again) is the crux of the matter. Desi OEMs cannot manufacture or support IP-protected spares for the GE 404. Radars/AAMs can be more easily replaced.

One wonders how the Iranians supported a large fleet of F-4s and F-14s during the revolutionary years (3 decades mind you!!)...specially the F-14s because no-one else flies that stuff. Did they (1) manufacture local spares and severely compromise on MTBF or (2) reduce stress by voluntarily shrinking their performance envelope / lowering their usage red-lines or (3) beg/borrow/steal OEM parts?

Looks like we need to hire them Iranians program managers to make the LCA a success...

Lots of equipment and components that will go into LCA like GE engine will be pre-specified. This happens in lot of big construction / turnkey contracts. The hitch is not the bottle-neck in the supply of imported components but the fact that HAL cannot construct a building to assemble everything together.

DexterM · Post by **DexterM** » 15 Apr 2016 13:49

Gyan, what are the one structural assembly and two Final Assembly buildings at the very end of the HAL Airport?
What are you going on about? A painting booth is not the final word in aircraft assembly!

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 15 Apr 2016 14:38

DexterM wrote:Gyan, what are the one structural assembly and two Final Assembly buildings at the very end of the HAL Airport?
What are you going on about? A painting booth is not the final word in aircraft assembly!

There is more there now and some new active construction activity going on the south side of the runway. This is a citizen journalist report with visual confirmation of activities.

DexterM · Post by **DexterM** » 15 Apr 2016 15:08

deejay wrote:
DexterM wrote:Gyan, what are the one structural assembly and two Final Assembly buildings at the very end of the HAL Airport?
What are you going on about? A painting booth is not the final word in aircraft assembly!
There is more there now and some new active construction activity going on the south side of the runway. This is a citizen journalist report with visual confirmation of activities.

I mean, they are already operational Saar!
Appreciate the CJ report -- aaakhon dekha haal via Volvo.

member_22605 · Post by **member_22605** » 15 Apr 2016 18:29

Gyan wrote:The Problem is that HAL is completely incompetent and incapable of manufacturing anything without foreign help. They still have to complete the Hanger Building in which LCA will be painted even though funds were allocated in 2001. Let pvt sector manufacture LCA in collaboration with ADA / DRDO

I'm sorry you know nothing about the program nor do you have any knowledge in general but you just keep going on and on with your false accusations. Please refrain from posting uninformed stuff and educate yourself about HAL. We are much better than you think or can ever imagine and we know our shortcomings and are working hard to improve.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Apr 2016 19:10

raghuk wrote:
Gyan wrote:The Problem is that HAL is completely incompetent and incapable of manufacturing anything without foreign help. They still have to complete the Hanger Building in which LCA will be painted even though funds were allocated in 2001. Let pvt sector manufacture LCA in collaboration with ADA / DRDO
I'm sorry you know nothing about the program nor do you have any knowledge in general but you just keep going on and on with your false accusations. Please refrain from posting uninformed stuff and educate yourself about HAL. We are much better than you think or can ever imagine and we know our shortcomings and are working hard to improve.

"Personally, speaking about myself, I am the best there is, it's always others who are incompetent. My own success speaks for itself and stands in contrast to the failures I point out" is a recurrent theme among educated Indians that I have pointed out on BRF for many years. HAL bad, DRDO bad, IAF bad but I am good enough to recognize and point that out, so please don't call me out - don't shoot the messenger, all criticism is constructive. Onlee On that note:

Gyan wrote:Did anybody notice new DRDO programme for MPA based on C-295 in the video? Can I take credit for being the first to point out?

In my school there was a hymn where the worshipper is asking that god's greatness could be witnessed by comparison with him.

O magnify the Lord with me
with me exalt his name

This is the exact opposite

O compare HAL with me
With me sully its name

shravanp · Post by **shravanp** » 15 Apr 2016 19:10

Yet another report of Rafale deal "Finalized". Now are we sure this one is truly finalized or still pending from another 'banwari''s purse approval?

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/rafale-j ... eststories

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Apr 2016 19:18

Raghuk - a spirited response. Yes, our criticism can be harsh and even unfair (more to the point)

Can HAL provide regular updates on the LCA or rebut some of the media reports that appear from time to time criticizing it (unfairly or otherwise). The constant delays and "TOT"/"integration onlee" stuff we hear from HAL can get demotivating.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Apr 2016 19:47

Vishnu Som ‏@VishnuNDTV 56m56 minutes ago

A word of caution - The acquisition of the Rafale becomes a done deal only when the papers are signed. That's still a few weeks away.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 15 Apr 2016 19:59

The price being reported 7.9B euros for 36 Rafales is same as Egypt deal 5.2B euros for 24 Rafales.

So far we know there is 50% offset clause for India which is a plus compared to Egypt. What else is included in this price, missiles, training, spares and maintenance for how many years will determine if this is a good deal or not. MP was very clear in his earlier i/w that it is a package that we are looking at and not just unit fly away costs.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 15 Apr 2016 20:07

Some more details from a credible source Nitin Gokhale

http://bharatshakti.in/after-hard-barga ... finalised/

After hard bargain, Rafale deal price finalised

Nearly four months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Francois Hollande signed a memorandum of agreement (MoU) to purchase 36 Rafale combat jets, negotiating teams from either side have narrowed down their differences.

Sources with first-hand knowledge of the discussions reveal that the Indian team has managed to hammer down the price for the deal from some 11 billion Euros demanded by the French to about 7.89 billion Euros after three months of sustained and hard negotiations. The expectation is that the final deal will be clinched in another month’s time.

The deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and creating thousands of new jobs in India through the offsets. In fact, the toughest phase in the negotiations that began in July 2015—after three months Prime Minister Modi announced in Paris India’s plan to purchase 36 Rafale jets—was to get the French to agree to 50 per cent offsets in the deal.

Initially, Dassault Aviation was willing to agree to reinvest only 30 per cent of the value of its contract in Indian entities to meet the offset obligations, but India was insisting on a 50 per cent offset clause to be met. The French side finally agreed to invest 50 per cent of the value. The commercial negotiations, those involved in the negotiations point out, actually began on 15 January this year. Although both Modi and Hollande were keen to sign the complete deal during their summit meeting on 25 January—the negotiators bargain hard until 2 am on 25th January but failed to agree on a price—they both settled on a generic MoU in absence of a consensus.

Since then, both sides have had a series of discussions and sources now say price, offset and delivery schedule is more or less finalised. Once the final deal is sealed in middle of May—that is the outer deadline that both sides have set for themselves–the commercial negotiations can be said to have taken just five months after they actually began in January

Under the proposed deal, French companies apart from Dassault Aviation, will provide several aeronautics, electronics and micro-electronics technologies under the offset obligation. Companies like Safran and Thales will join Dassault in providing state-of-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles and materials for electronics and micro-electronics.

The first delivery of the combat jets, manufactured by French aviation major Dassault Aviation, will however take at least 18 to 20 months from the date of signing of the contract. The Indian Air Force (IAF) desperately needs new fighter jets since its combat jet strength has depleted alarmingly in absence of any new induction. The 36 jets however will not be sufficient to make up for the shortage. Once the Rafale deal is concluded, the MoD and IAF is likely to concentrate on drawing up another plan to acquire another batch of fighter jets manufactured under the Make in India programme. This tender, whenever finalised, will allow other major aviation majors worldwide to compete in the Indian market for fighter jets.

Given that both Hollande and Modi have invested a great deal of their own political capital in re-configuring the original unwieldy tender, government sources insist that the contract will be signed sooner than later. Once that happens, it will bring down the curtains of one of the world’s longest running competition to sell fighter aircraft for any air force anywhere in the world.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 15 Apr 2016 21:00

Can't say I'm glad we're paying $250 mil for the bird, so I'll instead congratulate Arthuro and Austin.

Assuming this goes ahead, and if they've settled the price that should be almost certain, I'd say this puts the Rafale in a leading position in Parrikar's bid to set up a parallel private sector line for a Western fighter.

I'm just desperately praying we go with TASL if that's case, rather than Reliance.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 15 Apr 2016 21:04

The French demand €12 bn, India say €8 bn. French sit back and wait for Parrikar to fold. The MoD responds by initiating serious discussions with Boeing and Lockheed Martin, the French fold the next day (literally).

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 15 Apr 2016 21:09

Viv S wrote:Can't say I'm glad we're paying $250 mil for the bird, so I'll instead congratulate Arthuro and Austin.

Assuming this goes ahead, and if they've settled the price that should be almost certain, I'd say this puts the Rafale in a leading position in Parrikar's bid to set up a parallel private sector line for a Western fighter.

I'm just desperately praying we go with TASL if that's case, rather than Reliance.

Agree. They also bagged the C295 contract.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 15 Apr 2016 21:12

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 846326.cms

Defence sources on Friday said the actual contract "could" be inked "within a month or so" since the negotiations are "moving in a positive direction towards conclusion".

The price is likely to settle around 7.8 million Euros or Rs 59,500 crores or so, said sources.

This comes after France, knowing fully well that India is desperate to induct new fighters and is committed to the deal, apparently began the commercial negotiations with a figure of over Rs 80,000 crores (11 billion euros) for the 36 Rafales, which included the entire weapons package, training and the 50% offsets clause.

But India kept on pushing for an overall price of around Rs 60,000 crores. The final price will, of course, depend on the support and spares package that is finalized.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 15 Apr 2016 21:13

Slightly different news from PTI

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... e-2755390/

Negotiations over 36 Rafale fighter jets enter ‘final stage’

Sources said the price for 36 Rafales, as per the UPA tender, keeping the cost escalation and dollar rate in mind, comes to a little over Rs 65,000 crore. This includes the cost involved in making changes India has sought in the aircraft, including Israeli helmet mounted display and some specific weaponry, among others.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 15 Apr 2016 21:18

All this time I was thinking it was being reported in dollars, now we see euros...?? So number in dollar terms will be higher...9+billion for 36 fighters, and now they want to setup another mrca line for up to 300 fighters??? What the

that is a lot of moolah.

I sure hope that the the second line is also for rafale...what's the point in having two different mrcas?

And all this mad money when in the next ten-twenty years we will see fifth gen designs in china....

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 15 Apr 2016 21:21

Not to sound pessimistic but are 36 jets really worth the cost.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 15 Apr 2016 21:23

Whether the $250 Million we will pay for each bird is money well spent will now depend on what we will get as TOT under the offset clause for the 'several' aeronautics, electronics and micro-electronics technologies mentioned above.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 15 Apr 2016 21:25

Offsets are not necessarily Technology Transfers, they are a commitment by the OEM to outsource production work based on the customer requirements, to industry. Transfer to technology is significantly more dense and involves deeper integration.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 15 Apr 2016 21:27

Thing is what exactly doo we need in terms of tech...it's not like the rafale is some 6 gen phyter...India already makes another 4.5 gen fighter all on its own, the LCA.

I think they really had little choice after modi unilaterally called it in Paris, so now have bit the bullet, and we blame the ACM for hurting negotiation position...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Apr 2016 21:29

There is no Plan B led to "we have agreed to fighters" at Paris.

All said and done, hope they double the order (in the future). At least 4 squadrons at 18 aircraft each. 2 alone are not enough.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 15 Apr 2016 21:35

Pms statement carries a lot more weight...after no plan b, they could have easily back tracked...but with modis high profile bravado, no chance...It will be totally effed up if they get 126 shirnet, solah or gripen to go with this...

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 15 Apr 2016 21:36

http://idrw.org/finally-a-deal-india-to ... 8-billion/
Source: Ndtv

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 15 Apr 2016 21:39

Best solution is endless negotiations stretching forever but always on the brink of closure.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 15 Apr 2016 21:40

Cain Marko wrote:Thing is what exactly doo we need in terms of tech...it's not like the rafale is some 6 gen phyter...India already makes another 4.5 gen fighter all on its own, the LCA.

I think they really had little choice after modi unilaterally called it in Paris, so now have bit the bullet, and we blame the ACM for hurting negotiation position...

Does IAF believe so? I doubt. Anyways, I just want our aerospace industry to expand. HAL has maintained its monopoly for far too long.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Apr 2016 21:41

Cain Marko wrote:Pms statement carries a lot more weight...after no plan b, they could have easily back tracked...but with modis high profile bravado, no chance...It will be totally effed up if they get 126 shirnet, solah or gripen to go with this...

If the service keeps saying they have no option then the PM has to step in...time and again, ACMs made a statement we are in trouble etc. Plus the numbers drawdown.

if the price is too high the deal can always move to something else. The media hates Modi anyway what does it matter what he pushes for.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Apr 2016 21:43

SagarAg wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Thing is what exactly doo we need in terms of tech...it's not like the rafale is some 6 gen phyter...India already makes another 4.5 gen fighter all on its own, the LCA.

I think they really had little choice after modi unilaterally called it in Paris, so now have bit the bullet, and we blame the ACM for hurting negotiation position...
Does IAF believe so? I doubt. Anyways, I just want our aerospace industry to expand. HAL has maintained its monopoly for far too long.

IAF per media does not even believe PAKFA is 5G. So stop these doubts and interpretations. We have had enough of the media rubbish about the LCA, gleefully repeated by Phillip et al to wade through all that on the forum again.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 15 Apr 2016 21:50

Karan M wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Pms statement carries a lot more weight...after no plan b, they could have easily back tracked...but with modis high profile bravado, no chance...It will be totally effed up if they get 126 shirnet, solah or gripen to go with this...
If the service keeps saying they have no option then the PM has to step in...time and again, ACMs made a statement we are in trouble etc. Plus the numbers drawdown.

if the price is too high the deal can always move to something else. The media hates Modi anyway what does it matter what he pushes for.

True enough...Never thought I'd feel sad if rafale won the mrca, I think everyone on br including me was gung ho, but the price is a shock...Stil I suppose a billion is the new million. I hope they don't get second line with another fighter altogether..just stick with rafale

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Apr 2016 21:55

Can you imagine what the menagerie in the IAF will look like? With yet another type? More fun for aviation mags and yet another thread on the forum.
I hope the IAFs revenue budget is increased for Su-30 ops. That's the main issue while this Rafale deal comes through (or not).
Given state of affairs, silver lining is progress in Astra to replace the R-77 & hopefully NGARM. Plus the Garuda & Garuthma. And they fix the RWR issue. If these things are done with an increase in spares automatically the need for Rafale reduces.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Apr 2016 21:56

Viv S wrote:Can't say I'm glad we're paying $250 mil for the bird, so I'll instead congratulate Arthuro and Austin.

Haha don't congrulate us but IAF for getting what they want and MOD for enduring but successful negotiation

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 15 Apr 2016 21:57

Karan M wrote:
IAF per media does not even believe PAKFA is 5G. So spare us these doubts and interpretations. We have had enough of the media rubbish about the LCA, gleefully repeated by Phillip et al to wade through all that on the forum again.

Saar that is why I said 'anyways'. I know its a hot topic and just keep coming back in a loop. Tejas is a world class fighter and I believe that and its love hate relationship with IAF has been discussed for time immemorial.

On the ToT aggrement, I hope they could negotiate some critical time consuming tech (development wise) which HAL can use for AMCA.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Apr 2016 22:04

^^ Understood. Just fed up of seeing the usual suspects attack Indian programs to push their wares like the MiG-35, Gripen NG etc. They'll do anything to run down Indian efforts in their attempts to grease the way for their chosen side.