Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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Bart S
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Bart S »

Karthik S wrote:
shiv wrote: One thing about the Chinese. They do not believe in living in jhopdis, or in using bad roads. If they build stuff they built good looking stuff even if build quality is bad. I say this in the context of looking for Chinese occupation of Gilgit-Baltistan. There is very little evidence of general occupation. Typically you will see evidence of Chines activity along the Karakoram highway. I have not seen much outside that. The Chinese like separate gated communities even when they are in Chinese occupied land like Tibet. just a few Km into Xinjiang just past the Karakoram pass is a typical Chinese military base. Walled - and with defensive trenches and all.

But I invite people to explore satellite imagery freely available to us to provide visible proof of Chinese occupation
For one true god's sake take PoK back already, apart from many other things it will give direct access to Afghanistan and Central Asia. All our energy needs will be met. Wish someone is on the drawing board regarding this.
Unfortunately, it isn't in the nature of our political classes (of all hues) to be planning such stuff.

But we can always count on Porki stupidity forcing their hand. Which is why it has always been argued on BRF that the more fanatical and Islamist Porkistan gets, the better it is for our interests.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

First thing, that NYT article above and this Wiki article smack of the work of Hill and Knowlton on behalf of China. I know those articles are subject to public revision, so I have to wonder if any Rakshak has the inclination to "represent" on that page? I can't do it, I'm just an ABCD. (Canada, actually.)

pankajs,

Thank you
for your clear, concise and cogent questions (shown below in blue). Please forgive me in advance if my responses/retorts are neither as clear, nor as concise nor as cogent; as I hope to make-up for it with profundity.

Speaking for myself: I’m not writing this because I relish the prospect of war between China and India, because I most certainly do not. Neither do I want to upset China’s entire apple cart; only the aggressive and expansionist elements in control of the PLA and CCCPC. In this hope, I am trying to communicate the current situation as I see it and what needs to happen going forward, IMO; essentially as a plea for a peaceful and stable world in the future.

This step the PLA has taken toward ‘The Chicken’s Neck’ is a clear prelude to war. The CHICOM’s have revealed their hand, and it is war to cut a path through to the BoB; severing India’s eastern states. Of course, this is an existential threat to India, and I applaud Bhutan and India together, for standing-up to obstruct this clear prelude to war. Frankly, I cannot think of a more elegant blocking move preventing a larger conflagration, than keeping this Doklam plateau in Bhutanese hands – or at least desolate, or otherwise the domain of herdsmen and passing traders.

I am certain, that if China had more high ground, there would long-ago have been fighting across that border – so I have to be thankful to India for keeping that peace, though she’s held that high ground for a long time.

That’s where “I’m coming from”: It’s “The Threat” from China that I’m interested in defeating and neutering, for the benefit of Indian and Chinese people alike – because it’s this threat that poses a grave danger to the peace and biosphere of the whole world.

1. Landmass grab >>Where is USSR now compared to USA?

It is true that the USSR of yesteryear is no more. What remains of it (essentially) is now known as the CIS (Commonwealth of Independent States), of which Russia is the largest member. Recognize that entirely on its own, Russia is still the largest country in the world. Also recognize Russia has recently grown by a few thousand square kilometers in three places; first in Georgia, then eastern Ukraine and most recently by annexing Crimea. It seems Russia is still growing. I’m fond of saying “The bulk of the Asian landmass is Russia, so what do you mean by ‘Asian’?” (I do this when trying to draw-out distinctions, which usually don’t pertain to Russians at all, but others from ‘Asia’.)

Comparisons of size and location aside; “Russia”, formerly known as “The USSR” is *the power that just picked the presidency of the USA*. Just imagine a chess game where you get to control your opponent’s pieces – this is where it seems Russia sits right now. At the same time, the CIA itself is now reporting that ‘The Richest Man in the World’ is none other than Vladimir Putin, who they value personally, in excess of $200 Billion. I would respectfully suggest that it’s possible many people have the wrong set of lenses in regard to Russia. Don’t get me wrong: I wouldn’t want to live under that regime, as lovely as Russian people are – I don’t like those “politics” and I’ve heard numerous scary stories of the “business environment” over there. (Yikes!) At the same time, there are two points to consider. First, strictly from a geopolitical ‘realpolitik’ assessment, Russia is a better partner for India than is the USA (if one is to make a choice between or place a bet on, one or the other – geopolitically speaking, in realpolitik terms). I know that’s a huge assertion, so to back-up my contention with bullet-points below. But also keep in mind my second point of consideration: That Russia should not be judged as a failing democracy, but rather as a totalitarian state in the process of succeeding. That's the lens to use, to get a clearer picture of Russia. Now consider these additional bullet points…

>> China is what it is today, because the USA was looking to build-up a hedge against Russia. To accomplish this, the USA granted the PRC ‘Most Favoured Nation’ trading status, and even went so far as to open the door to offshoring of massive amounts of US industrial capacity to China. If it weren’t for Kissinger’s gambit enacted by Nixon, the PRC would probably still be more agrarian than industrial; and they probably wouldn’t be up to all the mischief they seem to be, all around their borders.

>> The USA is a major debtor to China, which opens up a potential incentive for USA to sell-out India to China – amicably cancelling debt on a deeply discounted basis. On top of which, American politics are deeply, deeply monetized/financialized. Money, money, money is all that matters, and politicians in the US routinely sell their souls to whichever interest has money to donate to a political campaign. There are numerous examples of American politicians who shamelessly represent foreign or corporate interests over the interests of their own constituents, let alone foreigners without deep pockets – who nobody worries about. Please consider that in the last 50 years, not a single foreign policy issue has played a major role in a US presidential campaign; rather it’s ‘bread and butter’ or ‘pocketbook’ issues that always prevail.

>> A corollary to the preceding point: India cannot afford to ‘bank’ on the USA as a geostrategic partner, for a number of reasons, including what the USA is. Consider: Fully a third of eligible voters don’t even bother to vote (if not more). The other third are fully idiots, but they often turn-out to vote in slightly greater numbers than do ‘reasonable Americans’. Secondly, while it’s possible that an India-friendly president might get elected from time to time; for such issues as arms sales – as one critical example – any two-bit member of congress can raise an objection, not to mention any senator, and the deal can be suspended until it’s adequately debated in the house or senate. Essentially, there’s 538 vetoes, and all those folks need to raise cash to run for re-election. By comparison, the way Russia ‘works’ in these dimensions is entirely different – and also much more reliable and stable, geopolitically speaking in realpolitik terms. Seriously. (Who is an organizer and funder and armourer of Islamic Jihadi movements? Is it Russia or is it rather, the USA?)

>> The USA has many Chinese scientists and engineers and such, including many who are working in US defence contractors. Not every time, but more times than I can count on all my fingers; this has resulted in the exfiltration of sensitive US defense contractor data/primary scientific intellectual property to CHICOMS. Indeed, this has included all manner of bioweapons defense technologies, and even the complete designs for the US’s replacement W88 variable yield nuclear warhead. That’s right, China has US nuclear weapons designs! That's Proliferation! (True to form, when the Khans want to do a nice "whitewash" they "over-charge and under-prosecute"; meaning they level heavy criminal charges against the spy, and get lots of ink in the newspaper for it; but in the end fail to convict because the burden of proof they set for themselves was too high to achieve, or they just plain stop trying. Accused gets a pass and lives the rest of his life comfortably, in the US or China is his choice.

>> The same thing applies to that illegal ZM-87 laser weapon I suspect the CHICOMS may bring-out at Doklam (NB: The Americans suspect this same device has been proliferated to NoKo and used against US helos patrolling the DMZ there. Pilots now routinely wear laser-proof lenses while in flight near the DMZ. Just sayin’). IIRC, the technology was actually invented and developed in the USA, then when the treaty banning it was being negotiated, the R&D project was all set to get scrapped; when Israeli interests enacted some kind of agreement that allows them access to US military technologies, especially ones the US no longer seeks to develop. Soon after the plans arrived in Israel, they realized there wouldn’t be a commercial market for it, given that same treaty (on Certain Conventional Weapons) and so they promptly sold the plans to…. the CHICOMS!

>> IN SUM: The USA created the CHICOM threat. The American MIC has been heavily infiltrated by CHICOM agents, who exfiltrate US defense tech to China, including even nuclear weapons designs and banned weapons. The profit imperative has also motivated many Americans to sell-out to Chinese interests, including politicians. By comparison, Russia doesn’t have the same issues. Sure, money counts and having the cash to pay for things goes a long way with the Russians. But Russia has a border with China, and also a history of war with China, and so will never sell them the most sensitive or secret military technologies, which Russia sees as their only hedge against the numerically greater Chinese. There are probably few (if any) Chinese scientists or engineers working in the Russian MIC; and ‘spare technologies’ developed by Russia are not just turned-over to the highest bidder. For these reasons alone, Russia is a better geostrategic partner for India, and the correct choice for such strategic programs as nuclear propulsion, stealth aircraft, submarine warfare, beam weapons, etc.

2. Resources grab question >> Which is the biggest debtor nation world in the world? The one who get to gobble products and resource from around the world by tossing out a bunch of paper in return.
You are answering your own question here, of course, but I mean that in more way than one. Consider: While the English were pillaging India, they weren’t paying market rates to Indians for the things they got from them. In this way, vast sums of wealth were stripped from India and brought to England, with no obligations to India whatsoever. By contrast, as for the US (by far the biggest debtor nation in the world), at least their “bunch of paper” is considered legal tender internationally, indeed it’s still ‘The Reserve Currency of the World’ and so is fungible and tradeable internationally, for pretty much anything you’d like to buy. One can even take their USDs and bring them to Russia right now for spending locally. That’s gotta count for something, no?

3. Spent money to rebuild defeated foes >> Let us do a thought experiment. Let’s say the US did not rebuild western Europe but turned its back on Europe. So, who would be holding sway over Western Europe now? Marshall plan was not a charity. It made with hard-core American business and foreign policy goals in mind.
I agree totally, that it wasn’t altruism, it was “hard-core American business and foreign policy goals” behind the Marshall Plan. But by any definition you give it, it was barely a holding strategy. It was entirely reactive in nature, and it cost the USA considerable cash – cash that could have been spent domestically, for realpolitik reasons as much as the alternative of rebuilding Europe and Japan. In the final summation: Was it “good business”? Of course, it was; indeed, it was probably the only thing the USA could do, to keep the Russian bear at bay (i.e. the Americans really had little choice in the matter – and now Japanese and German and Italian and French cars are sold all over the world, in competition with American cars). What I’m trying to convey here: It’s not like it was the perfect strategy for American interests, in the final summation (IMO).

What I was trying to convey with my earlier post(s) is that; now with the prospect of BRICS nearly in tatters, the Russians mustn’t be given the impression that India will run directly into the Khan’s arms, because the Russians deserve better, because the Khan’s don’t deserve to be so entrusted by India, and because this whole mess originates with the Khans in the first place. If it also turns out to be a big money maker for them, what disincentive will the Khans have for their disregard and disdain for Indian interests?

FOOD FOR THOUGHT: The recent surge in the price of bitcoins has been speculated to reflect the large-scale 'weiging-in' of Russian money; undertaken to subvert sanctions enacted by the USA against Russian interests. If this can be corroborated or otherwise substantiated, it would signal a dramatic shift in geopolitics. It used to be said, to understand things better, one must 'follow the money'. Well, crypto-currencies don't lend lend themselves to being traced, let alone sanctioned. Now with large-scale state involvement by a wealthy set of oligarchs and such from a resource-rich nation like Russia....... BTC is here to stay! This is a big geopolitical turning point. (Frankly, I'm already feeling dizzy.)

How much is one bitcoin worth? Where to buy bitcoins? Find out by visiting https://localbitcoins.com/ and selecting your location and signify if you're buying or selling. Remember, you can 'buy' or 'sell' virtually any fraction of a bitcoin, so you don't have to plunk-down the entire 5K today, you can buy in any smaller decimal denomination you'd like.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

^^^^^
Another key difference between the United States and Russia in regards to such affairs as mentioned above; I'd like to note the ways in which each country's MIC functions. In the US, defense acquisition decisions are highly politicized. Oftentimes, larger programs are geographically split-up such that some of the workload is done in different parts of the country, so as to win the political support of enough members of congress and senate. In Russia, there is no such monkey business going-on. In Russia, the MIC doesn't get to produce equipment that won't work in the cold, or when encrusted with mud, etc. By comparison, the US funded many boondogles, and even continues to "live a lie" to fly a lead albatross like the V22 Osprey, which periodically kills marines by the dozen a go. I mean, for crying-out loud, remember "The Bradly Fighting Vehicle" which was made out of aluminum and caught fire when hit by tracer rounds? They literally built hundreds of those things! Russia wouldn't manage such a screw-up. Sure, the Russians aren't perfect, and sometimes they have a QC problem with some of their hardware -- that's apparent. But what it warrants is going over there and helping them out, doing the quality engineering and helping them raise their game by collaborating.

JMT.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by pankajs »

pankajs wrote:
Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:I feel obliged to point-out another couple of notable facts from history, because I think they pertain to the geopolitical situation evolving; but I think the best way to do that is slightly roundabout. Begging your forbearance.....

More than a few times, over the years, I've found the opportunity to ask Americans (fyi, I'm Canadian); often groups of Americans sitting around a breakfast table or lunch or dinner table -- I'll ask them "Who won world war two?". Always I get the same answer. Americans will always say "We did". Immediately I'll ask them in a surprised tone "Really? How much territory did the United States gain control over? How much treasure did the United States seize?" Invariably, the gathered Americans will look stunned for a moment, before I explain that this is how war is gauged, despite the fact that movies and television will reliably depict a narrative of victory, despite the fact that land was not won, or was even lost -- including in spite of the fact that American tax dollars funded the reconstruction of a destroyed Japan and Germany, rather than seeing their treasure shipped to the USA.

TO WIT: By any measure that counts, WWII was not won by the United States and the 'Western Alliance'. Rather, the second world war was "won" by the Soviets (while arguably and simultaneously, the Russian people lost that war, suffering more deaths than all other parties to WWII *combined*). Yet, of course, the USSR did expand over a large landmass, and resources from that landmass flowed "to the center" as it were..... By contrast the USA remained the same size, and spent money to rebuild defeated foes and stand them up against Russia during the duration of "The Cold War".
Lets start with "measure that counts" per you.

1. Landmass grab >>Where is USSR now compared to USA?
2. Resources grab question >> Which is the biggest debtor nation world in the world? The one who get to gobble products and resource from around the world by tossing out a bunch of paper in return.
3. Spent money to rebuild defeated foes >> Let us do a thought experiment. Lets say the US did not rebuild western Europe but turned its back on Europe. So who would be holding sway over Western Europe now? Marshall plan was not a charity. It made with hard-core American business and foreign policy goals in mind.
Let me quote you "the USSR did expand over a large landmass". If there was any doubt what you meant by *expand* it is clear when you wrote "By contrast the USA remained the same size".

So clearly you think USSR "expanded" in contrast to US which "remained the same size" and that per you makes USSR the winner in WW2. Please let us know where is USSR right now? Where are its present boundaries?

Please don't talk of *Size* of USSR or Russia for that matter compared to the US. That was not you original contention. Please do not bring Russia, India, China into the matter. You were trying to teach us history and I at least am very eager to learn about the fate of USSR vs USA. You will notice I had commented on a very limited part of your original post and that is all that I am concerned with.

BTW, if you still doubt what happened to USSR please consult one Mr. Putin. His views on that matter are very very clear. The rest of the 2 question becomes irrelevant once the USSR question is answered.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Gagan »

One thing to know, is that the middle aged Chinese one sees around the world - the ones in their mid 40s-70s have almost ALL had military service in the PLA.
China was dirt poor, and the PLA was the largest employer.
So these are the guys who would recite the Cheeni National anthem daily, recite their pledge to the Communist Party to be loyal servants, and so will 400% believe the propagandoo dished out by CCTV and other Chinese TV channels in their new adopted homes overseas.

These uber motivated cheenis, like that Vancouver Chinese lady, are most probably ex PLA.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Rudradev »

This is an article about China vs. the US regarding the NoKo situation. I am posting excerpts from it here to demonstrate a few things about how the Chinese like to negotiate.

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/f ... ns-left-on

[Article earlier discusses a "first option"... learning to live with a nuclear NoKo, effectively legitimizing Chinese proliferation. It dismisses this option as unattractive for several reasons]


...
A second option involves launching a preventive military strike (using aircraft and/or missiles armed with conventional warheads) on North Korea’s known nuclear and missile sites. One problem is that a strike cannot destroy what cannot be located and cannot always destroy what can be, if it is well protected.

The bigger danger is that of North Korean retaliation, which would bring about a second Korean war of great human and economic cost and significant risk. For this reason, South Korea is certain to oppose any such action on the part of the United States. And China has warned it will intervene to prevent any attempt to overthrow the regime in Pyongyang or “change the political pattern of the Korean Peninsula.” [So the first ingredient in the chow mein... bluster and bluff... has already been stirred into the Korean recipe by China. This business of issuing "warnings" to other countries is vital to China's MO, and the reason they are so angry about our Doklam resistance is that by ignoring their bluster, we're severely denting the credibility of any other "warnings" they issue to anybody else. After all if we dismiss their "warnings" with the contempt they deserve, why would US/SoKo/Japan take them seriously?]

The third option is to attempt to negotiate some sort of a freeze or ceiling on North Korea’s nuclear and missile programs. At the heart of this approach would be a ban on tests and possibly on the production of bombs and fissile material. It would require intrusive inspections. Getting the North Korean government to agree would be no easy thing, and even if they did, the threat would not be eliminated.

The additional matter is what the United States and others would need to offer up in exchange. China has proposed on many occasions a “freeze for freeze” — a freeze on North Korean nuclear and missile programs in exchange for the United States and South Korea freezing (i.e., canceling) any military exercises. [In other words, we create a nuclear-armed rogue nation to blackmail you, and you make concessions that serve our interests in order to save yourselves from blackmail]

Such a position is unacceptable to Washington, as the exercises are a response to the North’s conventional military threat rather than to its nuclear and missile efforts. But it is possible to imagine a mix of reduced sanctions, a formal end to the Korean War (which would offer recognition of North Korea), and possibly some modest adjustment to conventional military exercises.

Again, there is no good option, much less a solution. It is essential to jettison illusions. No amount of sanctioning will persuade North Korea to give up nuclear weapons, nor will China step up and solve the problem for us. As much as Beijing would like to see North Korea change its ways, [This is why the US is truly fugged. Its vaunted egg-spurts cannot, or WILL not, see China clearly. The author, Richard Haass, was in the State Dept under GWB and a close advisor to Al Quolin Bin Powell. He is completely in the thrall of the Kissingerian virus and even at a time like this, talks about the PRC's motivations as if befitting a responsible member of the international community. Haass works for the Council for Foreign Relations, a major Washington DC Foreign Policy Stink Tank. Just as the mainstream US media outlets (NY Times, Washington Post, CNN etc.) have long been purchased by China, the best regarded Stink Tanks in the US are apparently also beholden to sponsors and underwriters in Beijing. This tactic (of buying, bribing, and recruiting fifth-columnist points of view) is ALSO an aspect of the Chinese MO that we in India need to watch out for] China will not apply so much pressure that it risks destabilizing what it sees as a valuable buffer state. To paraphrase what one French politician said about Germany during the Cold War, China likes Korea so much it is glad there are two of them.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

pankajs wrote: So clearly you think USSR "expanded" in contrast to US which "remained the same size" and that per you makes USSR the winner in WW2. Please let us know where is USSR right now? Where are its present boundaries?

Please don't talk of *Size* of USSR or Russia for that matter compared to the US. That was not you original contention. Please do not bring Russia, India, China into the matter. You were trying to teach us history and I at least am very eager to learn about the fate of USSR vs USA. You will notice I had commented on a very limited part of your original post and that is all that I am concerned with.

BTW, if you still doubt what happened to USSR please consult one Mr. Putin. His views on that matter are very very clear. The rest of the 2 question becomes irrelevant once the USSR question is answered.
pankajs, respectfully, I thought I had conceded the point that the USSR is dissolved, but now substantially replaced by the CIS. If that wasn't clear then let me say it equivocally, the USSR is gone into the ashbin of history. Yet, interestingly, while the same thing can be said of Rome and Ancient Egypt, of Great Britain and the Spanish Armada; only the Russians have resurrected themselves from the ash bin of history, not only once or twice, but five times now.

Also, I was merely offering the realpolitik calculus of "land and treasure". In terms of land; I think you know my views. As for treasure, it flowed toward the center for Russia/USSR. I was making the comparison that the "land and treasure" calculus applied to the USA during the same time period saw no land gain for the USA and money flows outward, not inward. That is all.

Czars are gone.

Soviets are gone.

Friends of Putin have replaced them all. Same landmass: Still largest on earth. Higher degrees of wealth concentration than ever before!

Democratic? Probably not really.

Reliable geostrategic partner? What does their history and track record suggest?

(Worst problem down to QC issues in Russian factories -- an entirely fixable problem.)
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

Gagan wrote:One thing to know, is that the middle aged Chinese one sees around the world - the ones in their mid 40s-70s have almost ALL had military service in the PLA.
China was dirt poor, and the PLA was the largest employer.
So these are the guys who would recite the Cheeni National anthem daily, recite their pledge to the Communist Party to be loyal servants, and so will 400% believe the propagandoo dished out by CCTV and other Chinese TV channels in their new adopted homes overseas.

These uber motivated cheenis, like that Vancouver Chinese lady, are most probably ex PLA.
It's possible that it's easier for such people to leave the country in the first place, so I'd say the probability is high.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by morem »

DavidD wrote:
Suraj wrote:Ah DavidD's view of death by a thousand cuts . David, that's not a new thing to us . Long ago in the 90s a lady named Benazir Bhutto said the same thing - that they'd make us bleed by needling and prodding us with an endless supply of angry terorrists in Cashmere . Pakistan used to be richer than India those days . Scary stuff .

Today the Pakistanis are about 30% poorer on average . The Indian economy is about 10x larger than theirs . And Benazir ? She had her head blown off by one of those terrorists some years ago .

About the talk of war, maybe you didn't realize it, but Indian papers are quoting the Chinese press here, so...

China has been needling and prodding India even longer . And it's far too emotionally invested in Doklam, which betrays weakness . You've spent 2 months shouting pointlessly at a smaller/weaker/poorer country having great trouble productionizing a little 4G fighter while you have multiple 5G ones, and imported ACs, subs and even handguns . Surely you can do better than that ?
I don't think you got my point at all. The death doesn't come from the cuts, it comes from your reaction to the cuts.
more sunzutiyapa :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by UlanBatori »

(yawwwn!) Time to move to the krikit nosokorea australia love&marriage indiantax ???? thread. :((
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Suraj »

Centre extends anti-dumping duty on Chinese chemical import by 5 years
The government has extended the anti-dumping duty imposed on import of chemical compound polytetraflouroethylene (PTFE) — used as a non-stick coating for pans and other cookware — from China by five years to safeguard the domestic industry.

The revenue department has issued a notification imposing $2,637 per tonne as anti-dumping duty on imports of PTFE from China.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by sanjaykumar »

These bledy Indians ain't gonna stop.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Pathik »

Chinese brats brandishing super cars is typical china man pussy footing behaviour. Engine revving outside the Indian embassy? These fried rice munnas behave exactly like their mohtarmas - flashing expensive brands as a display of power. They cannot think beyond money especially the second gens in Sydney and melbourne. Just goes to show the level of matulity in their tallel than mountain heads
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Hari Seldon »

Would be oh-so-nice to get a handle of the insidious inside plopagandu the CCP and PLA is feeding its masses and mooses. Only.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Rudradev »

Pathik wrote:Chinese brats brandishing super cars is typical china man pussy footing behaviour. Engine revving outside the Indian embassy? These fried rice munnas behave exactly like their mohtarmas - flashing expensive brands as a display of power. They cannot think beyond money especially the second gens in Sydney and melbourne. Just goes to show the level of matulity in their tallel than mountain heads
The appropriate response is to remove the air from their tyres (and watch them burst into tears because they have no idea how to replace a spare).
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Arjun »

Pathik wrote:Chinese brats brandishing super cars is typical china man pussy footing behaviour. Engine revving outside the Indian embassy? These fried rice munnas behave exactly like their mohtarmas - flashing expensive brands as a display of power. They cannot think beyond money especially the second gens in Sydney and melbourne. Just goes to show the level of matulity in their tallel than mountain heads
Heh, heh....but this plotest is certainly a step-up from the ones that India has been used to from the Muslim world. The abiding image from the peacefuls is the iconic 'Rageboy' and the rock-throwers from the stone-age all the way from Palestine to Kashmir....So I for one, certainly welcome this vely vely novel and futulistic way of plotest - though it is likely that the ones doing the plotest are equally dim-witted - whether the guy is a stone-pelter or has a hand on the wheel of a supel cal.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Singha »

Image
Image
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Rudradev »

2 Fast 2 Spurious
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Singha »

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tec ... 084725.cms

we need a law same as US/EU that all data on indian users must be stored on indian servers. no exceptions and give them 3 months to comply or cease operations. also with retroactive effect the data on current indian users must be moved to india.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by DrRatnadip »

http://www.timesnownews.com/india/video ... ibet/73710

Exclusive: Massive increase in ‘fighter activity’ by Chinese Air Force in Tibet

New Delhi: It's not just Doklam; Chinese military pressure on India may be increasing in recent months. Chinese Air Force activity in Tibet has been on the rise in the last three months.
More fighters have moved to Tibet and 'fighter activity,' the number of sorties by fighter planes, particularly the more modern J-11, which is a version of the Russian Sukhoi-27, is on the rise.
The number of fighter planes based in Lhasa-Gongka has gone up to 25 and 20 of them are J-11s. There are eight fighters at Hoping, three at Hotan and 12 at Hotan's runways were under repair for a while but they are operational again. Five more J-11s have joined the fleet in Lhasa, raising the number of fighter jets in Tibet to 48.
Fighter activity has gone up significantly in the recent months. There were 47 sorties by fighters in the TAR or Tibetan Autonomous Region in the month of January, 32 in February, 19 sorties in the month of March, 17 in April, 268 in May, 164 in June and 166 in July 31.
This raises the number of fighter sorties to 713. 268 sorties in a month are considered very high and is a clear sign of the operational effectiveness of the air bases and also, the pilots flying at high altitude.
In May 2015, for example, there were 200 fighter sorties. While this is below previous records of 999 until July 16 in 2015, it remains a significant number, particularly in May, June and July this year.
There is also heightened activity by the Chinese Air Force TU-154 aircraft used for surveillance. The plane is being increasingly used in Tibet after being fitted with EW suites.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by DrRatnadip »

http://m.timesofindia.com/world/china/i ... 094852.cms

After clash in Ladakh, India braces for more 'shallow intrusions' by PLA

NEW DELHI: The Indian forces are bracing for more "shallow intrusions" or "needling probes" from China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) in vulnerable spots along the Line of Actual Control (LAC), according to sources in the Indian defence establishment.
This assessment comes even as the two forces held a border personnel meeting (BPM) in eastern Ladakh on Wednesday to calm down tempers, a day after Indian and Chinese soldiers pelted stones at each other near Pangong Lake.
The PLA is unlikely to try anything near the already restive Sikkim-Bhutan-Sikkim tri-junction because Indian troops are militarily much better-placed there and can easily threaten China's narrow Chumbi Valley in the region, if required, the according to India's assessment. "But the PLA could try something in eastern Ladakh, as was seen on Tuesday, or eastern Arunachal Pradesh or Lipulekh Pass and Barahoti in the central sector (Himachal-Uttarakhand)," one of the sources said.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

It almost looks like my videos are being seen by all sorts of people. The names quoted above have rarely if ever appeared in press reports or guvrmand sources in the past
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by deejay »

DrRatnadip wrote:http://www.timesnownews.com/india/video ... ibet/73710

Exclusive: Massive increase in ‘fighter activity’ by Chinese Air Force in Tibet

New Delhi: It's not just Doklam; Chinese military pressure on India may be increasing in recent months. Chinese Air Force activity in Tibet has been on the rise in the last three months.
More fighters have moved to Tibet and 'fighter activity,' the number of sorties by fighter planes, particularly the more modern J-11, which is a version of the Russian Sukhoi-27, is on the rise.
The number of fighter planes based in Lhasa-Gongka has gone up to 25 and 20 of them are J-11s. There are eight fighters at Hoping, three at Hotan and 12 at Hotan's runways were under repair for a while but they are operational again. Five more J-11s have joined the fleet in Lhasa, raising the number of fighter jets in Tibet to 48.
Fighter activity has gone up significantly in the recent months. There were 47 sorties by fighters in the TAR or Tibetan Autonomous Region in the month of January, 32 in February, 19 sorties in the month of March, 17 in April, 268 in May, 164 in June and 166 in July 31.
This raises the number of fighter sorties to 713. 268 sorties in a month are considered very high and is a clear sign of the operational effectiveness of the air bases and also, the pilots flying at high altitude.
In May 2015, for example, there were 200 fighter sorties. While this is below previous records of 999 until July 16 in 2015, it remains a significant number, particularly in May, June and July this year.
There is also heightened activity by the Chinese Air Force TU-154 aircraft used for surveillance. The plane is being increasingly used in Tibet after being fitted with EW suites.
The following is directed at the author of the farticle quoted and not the poster.

This is massive increase in fighter numbers compared to what and to when? I had read an article earlier ( a week ago, maybe) with same fighter numbers but the tone was "Chinese have a very small fighter presence in Tibet - 25..." (I am paraphrasing).

See, same fact - nonchalance vs, Dhoti, mundu and lungi shibber. Nay, in this case it is rigor mortis out of bone shibber. Kitna daroge? How long will people spread fear to force decisions out of fear?

268 sorties in a month / 22 working days = 12.182 sorties per day spread over 25 fighters. And I am giving the weekend off. Include the full 30 days and that is dismal. Only 50% flew on an average day? What da Chinese puck? That is good? That is what I am supposed to be scared off? Is it what a Soopah Powah of the TsunTsutiyappa ideology blessed with rivers of marxist blood can achieve during heightened tensions? Sortie Rates are notoriously tough to achieve - even 0.7-1.1 sortie per day is not an easy job, but 0.5? I mean surely, most of the sorties were training without full load out?

Now there is a lot you can research on about sortie rates - start here: http://www.warfaresims.com/?page_id=3262
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by shiv »

Pathik wrote:Chinese brats brandishing super cars is typical china man pussy footing behaviour. Engine revving outside the Indian embassy? These fried rice munnas behave exactly like their mohtarmas - flashing expensive brands as a display of power. They cannot think beyond money especially the second gens in Sydney and melbourne. Just goes to show the level of matulity in their tallel than mountain heads
Exactly my thoughts.

I had an epiphany after seeing this news based on the gyan from the China psyche thread.

It appears that from the Chinese viewpoint - a vulgar display of wealth (and therefore power?) is made expecting the viewer (who is assumed to be of lower wealth, power and status) to back down, kowtow and accept the suzerainty of the lord.

It is amazing how two neighbouring countries can be so unlike each other. In India a vulgar display of wealth is looked down upon and there is no automatic deference. I think that society in China is expected to automatically bow down before a loud display that is a hin-hint-nudge-nudge that if you don't bow down punishment will come.

Of course the obvious thing in this situation is to tell the flashers to fugoff and ask them to being the punishment on and promise them punishment in return. Like I said - a lot of single children in China will be left dead at the end of this. The censors in china will have to have a lot of excuses ready for missing sons

One thing that comes to mind is that the Chinese, fearing heavy casualties and losses in a soldier-heavy conflict may choose to do some long range fighting (not stones!) via artillery or missile. But that is a very dangerous game. Armies are not created to simply run away. Unless they have personnel to defend their borders - Indian troops will walkover and grab. The Chinese will have to escalate and will have to win hands down. It will be messy and whatever happens that will be the end of any India-China economic cooperation for another 50 years. And Chinese ships will not be safe in the Indian ocean, nor will that road in Shitland get away with a walkover
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by TKiran »

The ball is in Han court now, they are still playing the ball. The moment they give an excuse to India to fight, they will lose Tibet, but they are totally clueless how to play the ball. But play they will, and they are not going to get bloody nose, this time it will be decapitation of their sovirginiety over Tibet and Xinjiang.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Singha »

history has shown US unable to make much impression on afghani talibs using only drones, smart artillery and airpower and was unable to subdue the insurgency in iraq without using a surge of troops. in syria, wherever the govt has boots on ground it usually wins, wherever it is thin or weak the ISIS /AQ hits and runs or grabs territory

so despite unlimited airpower and missiles, these rather low tech but persistent foes have not been subdued using "standoff weapons"
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Mort Walker »

Pathik wrote:Chinese brats brandishing super cars is typical china man pussy footing behaviour. Engine revving outside the Indian embassy? These fried rice munnas behave exactly like their mohtarmas - flashing expensive brands as a display of power. They cannot think beyond money especially the second gens in Sydney and melbourne. Just goes to show the level of matulity in their tallel than mountain heads
At least the Chinese drive on the correct side of the road unlike the recent former British colonies.
Have to give them credit for that.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by VikramS »

shiv wrote:It almost looks like my videos are being seen by all sorts of people. The names quoted above have rarely if ever appeared in press reports or guvrmand sources in the past
Even your old Longowala videos are surfacing in the high school (all boys) WA group. Had the pleasure of seeing the hunters in action early today morning.

My only concern is that often they do not refer to the original youtube channel.

You are in an illustrious league of individuals with the highest number of Whatsapp/FB views.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by g.sarkar »

This is bizarre:
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-l ... 9cb9ca1bb5
India-China border dispute: Bizarre video mocks New Delhi with racist stereotype
STICKS and stones may break bones, but what about a bizarre video? China’s state-run media has lashed out at India over a border dispute by posting a racist video. But it may have backfired.
A tense standoff between China and India in the Himalayas has been escalating in recent months. Soldiers from the two sides earlier this week hurled stones and insults at one another high in the Himalayas in Indian-controlled Kashmir.
Now Xinhua, Beijing’s formal state mouthpiece, has escalated the war of words.
It’s posted a propaganda video against India which portrays the Asian power as a bunch of bumbling, hairy idiots.
But one analyst says the video is so bad, it may actually end up doing India a favour by highlighting China’s ignorance and bigotry.
Complete with canned laughter, the “7 Sins of India” explainer video — presented in English for a Western audience — mocks a stereotypical Indian (portrayed by a Chinese actor wearing a fake turban and beard) while painting an aggrieved and one-sided picture of events in the disputed border plateau.
It mockingly accuses “thick skinned” New Delhi of trespass, violating convention, not knowing right from wrong, hijacking Bhutan and sticking to its mistakes.
“Didn’t your mumma tell you, never break the law?” the female presenter appeals.
......
Lizard has lost face and if they do not attack, I mean with military, not with cars or home made videos, they will become a laughingstock in Asia.
Gautam
Last edited by g.sarkar on 17 Aug 2017 11:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Prasad »

Re sortie rates in Tibet - They've been steadily building up numbers and activity over the years. Suddenly taking note of heightened activity (it is bloody summer!) is typical dhoti shiver nonsense. These guys rely on their unmanned radar stations. None of these pieces even talk about those or their EW capability/infra. DDM.
nam wrote:I am checking out some GE images of Lhasa airport and the PLAAF part.

Does these airbase even have RCC pens? Where do the Chinis store their aircraft in Lhasa. For all the bravado of bombing our airbased with rockets, Lhasa airport does not seem to have a blast pen.
Lhasa doesn't have any from what one can see in GE. Doubt any of the other airports in Tibet do either. So all their planes sit on the tarmac at the end of the runway off to the south.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Iyersan »

They will attack. I know Gobar times is not recommended. But in one of the articles there, a senior pannwallah from the defense institute in China has said that India will pay even if unilaterally withdraws.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by g.sarkar »

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/16/china-v ... rious.html
Forget North Korea — here's the other Asia flashpoint that has analysts worried
While the world has focused on North Korea, the globe's two biggest emerging economies are squaring off over their shared border. China and India's borderlands, though geographically desolate and inhospitable, have been a hot spot for increasing military tension in recent months. The two giants are wrestling more broadly for hegemony in Asia, and given that both are equipped with nuclear weapons, the situation could escalate. "Both sides stand to lose tremendously, economically speaking, should this boil over into an actual war," wrote Asia analysts Shailesh Kumar and Kelsey Broderick at consulting firm Eurasia Group. For Gareth Price, senior research fellow on the Asia program at Chatham House, the dispute reflects how China and India posits themselves within the pecking order in Asia. "China (wants) to be primary hegemonic power," in the region, he said, but India challenges this and "wants to be treated as an equal." A mountain tussle, and massing troops
Reuters reported Tuesday that Chinese and Indians troops were involved in a tussle in the western Himalayas. Sources in New Delhi told Reuters that Chinese soldiers attempted to enter Indian territory in Ladakh, Jammu and Kashmir state.
But armed forces have been locked in a stand-off on their border further east since June of this year, on a plateau known as Donglang in China and Doklam in India. Both countries have amassed troops in the area following a disagreement over the Chinese building a road in territory disputed between itself and Indian ally Bhutan.
The most recent standoff came just ahead of India's 70th anniversary Tuesday since it gained independence from the British. Prime Minister Narendra Modi, in a speech marking the occasion in New Delhi, said that India was "strong enough to overcome those who try to act against our country. "India has been uncomfortable with China's expansion in Asia. Price spoke of "India's vociferous objection to the Belt and Road initiative," China's infrastructure development program spanning across the continent and further around the globe.
'India must not flirt with disaster'
In an editorial entitled "India must not flirt with disaster," published August 8, Chinese state news platform Xinhua said that India's involvement in the Doklam area was "an offense to China's sovereignty."
Ultimately for Broderick and Kumar, "The headline risk, at the moment, is greater than the actual risk of war."
A conflict would stem the foreign investment that's critical for India, whereas Chinese President Xi Jinping "has already consolidated enough power that he doesn't need to beat his chest in an external conflict to further his domestic goals."
Alyssa Ayres, senior fellow for India at the Council on Foreign Relations, said that the ongoing border dispute is a "conflict that China has created." She added that strategically, the "Chinese military has more to lose" and should the conflict move against its favor, this would mean "a very embarrassing loss of face."
Both China and India are juggling other foreign policy headaches, with China playing a seminal role in the North Korea nuclear stand-off and accused of aggravating its smaller neighbors over South China Sea islands; while India has been locked into a territorial dispute with Pakistan over Kashmir for many years. China and India last directly clashed over their border in 1962, with the latter country ceding some territory.
.....
Gautam
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by yensoy »

Iyersan wrote:They will attack. I know Gobar times is not recommended. But in one of the articles there, a senior pannwallah from the defense institute in China has said that India will pay even if unilaterally withdraws.
"This means that even when India withdraws its troops from the Doklam Plateau, China will not let the matter drop, because withdrawal is just the precondition, not the solution. China will still make India pay for its offensive and provocative behavior even if India withdraws its troops as China requests," Ye Hailin, director of the National Institute of International Strategy, Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, told the Global Times.
Ah since they will attack even if we withdraw, we see no point in withdrawing.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Iyersan »

NightWatch ( Another Paanwalla)
For the Night of 16 August 2016


China-India: During the daily press session on 16 August, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying accepted a question concerning the rock throwing incident near Pangong Lake.
The journalist asked, “Was the incident in Ladakh related to the Doklam Incident?”
Hua replied, “Regarding the incident of the Indian troops' crossing the border in Dong Lang, the Chinese side's position is very clear and firm. The Indian side should immediately and unconditionally withdraw all the personnel and equipment that illegally crossed the border. This is the basis and premise for resolving this incident.”

“Regarding media reports on the friction in Ladakh region, China's border defense troops have been performing patrol duties on the Chinese side of the actual control line. The Chinese side urges the Indian side to abide by the relevant agreements between the two countries and earnestly maintain peace and stability in the two countries' border areas.”

Global Times. Global Times repeated Hua’s statement that Indian soldiers must withdraw and reiterated China’s review of events.

“China's Foreign Ministry on Wednesday, 16 August, once again asked India to withdraw all its troops and equipment from Chinese territory, as the border standoff in the Dong Lang (Doklam) area approaches its second month.”
(At this point the article restates China’s position, as conveyed in every Chinese official statement since 2 August. It concludes as follows.)

“As a Chinese saying goes, a good neighbor is better than a distant brother. China of course has no desire to enter into a war with its neighbor.”

“China and India are two developing giants with a wide range of common interests. A sensible bilateral relationship will definitely benefit over two billion people.”

“But Chinese people will never back down in defending sovereignty and no country should underestimate China's resolve.”

Comment: Global Times published this article on 17 August. On 11 August, it published an article that concluded China has no choice but to retaliate because the Indians refuse to withdraw their soldiers. We judge that a limited Chinese military operation is likely at any time.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by Dumal »

Iyersan wrote:They will attack. I know Gobar times is not recommended. But in one of the articles there, a senior pannwallah from the defense institute in China has said that India will pay even if unilaterally withdraws.
"This means that even when India withdraws its troops from the Doklam Plateau, China will not let the matter drop, because withdrawal is just the precondition, not the solution. China will still make India pay for its offensive and provocative behavior even if India withdraws its troops as China requests," Ye Hailin, director of the National Institute of International Strategy, Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, told the Global Times.
God knows what is needed is the other way around - even if China decides to move on from this conflict, we should ensure it pays heavily for its offensive and provocative behavior such that it will never again attempt its changing the map strategy. I hope our strategists include this in their work-plan.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by pankajs »

What the Chinese ex-fart means by "China will still make India pay" is that it is going to make a stronger play in our neighborhood primarily in Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh.

Nothing new but the push will be stronger now. India will have to up its game in our neighborhood.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by vijaykarthik »

Funny that the Chinese FM spokesperson on 16th August has said "China of course has no desire to enter into a war with its neighbor.”

So, its all going to be only friendly stones that make their accidental way into the Indian side.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by manju »

FAULT LINES on the FACE of CHINA: 50 REASONS WHY CHINA MAY NEVER BE GREAT.
https://www.amazon.com/FAULT-LINES-FACE ... 1453726489
ordered this book. Thanks for the suggestion
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by nam »

Prasad wrote: Lhasa doesn't have any from what one can see in GE. Doubt any of the other airports in Tibet do either. So all their planes sit on the tarmac at the end of the runway off to the south.
They need to have hardened weapon storage sites as well. Using airpower against India will require lot of bombs. These are shared airport and you cannot willy nilly keep the bombs in some random buildings. Where are they storing the bombs ? Is PLAAf dropping bombs anywhere?

May be there are dedicated airbases in Tibet, which I missed.
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Re: Neutering & defeating Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Post by wasu »

WATCH: Xinhua attacks India with racist propaganda video on Doklam border dispute

http://shanghaiist.com/2017/08/17/india-seven-sins.php
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