Artillery: News & Discussion

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 25 Aug 2017 05:26

Vips wrote:If India does not buy or induct other guns soon then rest assured during a war it will be these Kalyani artillery guns which will be manufactured and inducted in emergency conditions. Recall that they (Bharat Forge) working 24 X7 delivered tens of thousands of 155 MM Shells (import substitution) during the Kargil War.

I don't think you can induct a new gun in the middle of a war. Crews need to be trained on it in peacetime.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 25 Aug 2017 06:57

ramana wrote: Kakkaji, The Baba Kalyani version is the Austrian Voest model right?

No. They purchased machinery from Austria. Kalyani is marketing localised versions of israeli ATHOS and ATMOS guns.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Aug 2017 07:07

Ok. Wiki gave wrong info in the GCH-45

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Aug 2017 08:32

But the kalyani entry in ATAGS is based on the GHN 45 converted to 52 and shell handling crane.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Aug 2017 21:00

Incorrect, Kalyani had a 155 mm/52 calibre based on the Austrian gun which they showcased at DefExpo. It's ATAGs entry is based on DRDO's gun. Infact, both the SED and Kalyani entries share the same gun.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 25 Aug 2017 21:26

Indranil wrote:Incorrect, Kalyani had a 155 mm/52 calibre based on the Austrian gun which they showcased at DefExpo. It's ATAGs entry is based on DRDO's gun. Infact, both the SED and Kalyani entries share the same gun.

So what is the competition compare? The gun carriage and electronic systems?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Aug 2017 21:35

The overall system. Accuracy, maintenance, ease of use. The tractor and the gun are one and the same.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 28 Aug 2017 14:36

http://m.timesofindia.com/city/jaipur/t ... 249472.cms

ATAGS development trials in pokharan.

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Aug 2017 14:40

Wow.....great news ( even though not sure when it would be inducted but atleast it has reached a stage of trials)

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 28 Aug 2017 16:11

We can ask both the private parties to build the system which is accepted as we need large numbers very fast. I am sure both will be eager to use their full capacity and will agree.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 29 Aug 2017 04:33

Yagnasri wrote:We can ask both the private parties to build the system which is accepted as we need large numbers very fast. I am sure both will be eager to use their full capacity and will agree.

Of the two one gets selected and then the order is split between the two with the winner sharing the tech with the one who lost out. Is that what you mean?

Keep OFB out of the loop....

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 29 Aug 2017 04:35

seriously the level of mistrust of OFB is to be felt to be believed.

I was a at MHOW years ago and you should have seen the bad-mouthing of OFB...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Aug 2017 07:51

The PMO reform of OFB is a much needed step.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 29 Aug 2017 18:12

Karan M wrote:The PMO reform of OFB is a much needed step.

I have worked in the places where the OFB factories are located. Very bad stories on how people work in OFBs are plenty. Particularly on the cost. They say even a nail cost in tens of rupees.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Aug 2017 18:52

without atleast 6000 x 155mm tubes everything is Maya.

we need to ensure minimum 100 x 155mm per km of frontage selected for punishment/counterfire and for breakthrough prep increase that to 300/km

i believe the russians had rolled in some 500/km on the oder vistula front during the final offensives towards berlin on the polish and austrian border but the general staff was still worried if that be enough.

one can NEVER have too much heavy artillery. it saves lives. it is the best friend and rakshak of the infantry.

in parallel with ATAGS and knowing the rate of OFB production, we should order 1500 GC45 from bharat forge to build a second line of scale and competency. they will anyway fire common rounds because we follow the nato/israeli JBMOU std.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Aug 2017 22:22

Accident That Killed Two Soldiers Throws Shadow Over “Sub-standard” South Korean Guns Ordered by India
https://newsclick.in/accident-killed-tw ... ered-india
Newsclick Report 28 Aug 2017

The South Korean Army has decided to halt exercising with the K-9 howitzers which India has ordered, after an explosion of the howitzer killed two soldiers.

The All India Defence Employees’ Federation (AIDEF) has written to the Defence Minister requesting the government to review its decision to buy substandard South Korean howitzer guns instead of indigenously manufactured howitzer guns.

The Ministry of Defence had decided to order ‘K-9 Thunder’ Howitzers from South Korea through L&T.

According to the AIDEF, the K-9 Thunder, developed by the South Korean company Hanwha Techwin (earlier named Samsung Techwin), is a "substandard" gun.

Two South Korean soldiers were killed recently during the trial of this gun, and the trust-worthiness of the gun has been questioned by many, including the South Korean media. A Parliamentary enquiry in 2016 said that there were over 1700 reports of malfunctioning of this gun over the previous five years.

The South Korean Army has decided to halt exercising with the K-9 , pending an enquiry into the explosion of the self-propelled howitzer that killed two soldiers and injured five others.

“For reasons unknown, there was smoke inside the howitzer’s breach block assembly,” a South Korean army official told The Korea Herald. “According to our on-site investigation, three rounds of explosive were completely burned down without any trace.”

India's Ministry of Defence entered into a Rs 4,366 crore contract in April 2017 with L&T for the supply of 100 K-9 Howitzers in collaboration with Hanwha Techwin, the South Korean technology partner of L&T.

The AIDEF said in its letter to Arun Jaitley that it failed to understand why the Dhanush Gun, which was indigenously developed by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) was being sidelined by the Indian Army and the Ministry of Defence.

The Dhanush Gun has successfully completed 3700 rounds of firing in the trial. There was a recent incident of a shell heating the muzzle brake, but according to the Indian defence workforce, the defect can be rectified by minor changes in the design – by increasing the diameter of the muzzle, for instance, said the letter signed by C Srikumar, General Secretary of AIDEF.

The AIDEF said that the reliability of the Artillery Gun System has been thrown into doubt by the decision to induct K-9 howitzers.

"The Government of India which is very keen about "indigenisation", "Make in India", "Level Playing Field" etc. should have taken a positive approach towards the indigenously built Dhanush - the 155 mm Artillery Gun, rather than purchasing the substandard Korean K-9 Gun which the Korean Army itself has reported to have rejected and refused to carry out further trials after two of its Soldiers were killed.”

The letter requests the intervention of the Defence Minister to reconsider the order placed to procure the South Korean gun through L&T, and to procure the indigenously developed Dhanush Artillery Gun from the Ordinance Factory Board after making necessary changes in the design.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Aug 2017 22:50

SaiK wrote:Accident That Killed Two Soldiers Throws Shadow Over “Sub-standard” South Korean Guns Ordered by India
https://newsclick.in/accident-killed-tw ... ered-india
Newsclick Report 28 Aug 2017

Should the above not suffice Sir?

Copyright, Fair Use, etc, etc, etc.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 29 Aug 2017 22:51

Somebody is really out to sabotage all Artillery acquisitions by army!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Aug 2017 00:44

Rakesh, Please go easy on this fair use thing No one is suing us. its a silly forum for god sakes and who can people discuss without knowing what I says. Are we a click bait forum?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Aug 2017 00:58

Comments on the newsclick story on K-9 vs Dhanush

The All India Defence Employees’ Federation (AIDEF) has written to the Defence Minister requesting the government to review its decision to buy substandard South Korean howitzer guns instead of indigenously manufactured howitzer guns.

The Ministry of Defence had decided to order ‘K-9 Thunder’ Howitzers from South Korea through L&T.

....
Two South Korean soldiers were killed recently during the trial of this gun, and the trust-worthiness of the gun has been questioned ...... A Parliamentary enquiry in 2016 said that there were over 1700 reports of malfunctioning of this gun over the previous five years.

The South Korean Army has decided to halt exercising with the K-9 , pending an enquiry into the explosion of the self-propelled howitzer that killed two soldiers and injured five others.

........

India's Ministry of Defence entered into a Rs 4,366 crore contract in April 2017 with L&T for the supply of 100 K-9 Howitzers in collaboration with Hanwha Techwin, the South Korean technology partner of L&T. (i.e. Rs 43.66 crores per self propelled gun)

The AIDEF said in its letter to Arun Jaitley that it failed to understand why the Dhanush Gun, which was indigenously developed by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) was being sidelined by the Indian Army and the Ministry of Defence.

The Dhanush Gun has successfully completed 3700 rounds of firing in the trial. There was a recent incident of a shell heating the muzzle brake, but according to the Indian defence workforce, the defect can be rectified by minor changes in the design – by increasing the diameter of the muzzle, for instance, said the letter signed by C Srikumar, General Secretary of AIDEF.

The AIDEF said that the reliability of the Artillery Gun System has been thrown into doubt by the decision to induct K-9 howitzers.

"The Government of India which is very keen about "indigenisation", "Make in India", "Level Playing Field" etc. should have taken a positive approach towards the indigenously built Dhanush - the 155 mm Artillery Gun, rather than purchasing the substandard Korean K-9 Gun which the Korean Army itself has reported to have rejected and refused to carry out further trials after two of its Soldiers were killed.”

The letter requests the intervention of the Defence Minister to reconsider the order placed to procure the South Korean gun through L&T, and to procure the indigenously developed Dhanush Artillery Gun from the Ordinance Factory Board after making necessary changes in the design.

AIDEF is wrong on multiple counts. The K9 is a self propelled artillery system for the strike corps whereas Dhanush is towed artillery system.
K-9 is a long standing requirement for the Idnian Army. Pakistan has been given 125 M109 self propelled guns by US in 2007
Indian Army needs both and to disparage the other system will not advance the Dhanush case. Because the IA will still need self propelled guns which the Dhanush is not/

Besides the Dhanush Muzzle brake is already enlarged taking lessons learned from previous muzzle brake strikes in the OFB up-barreling the 130 mm guns. However muzzle brake strike is a function of the charge, the artillery shell and barrel clearance and the quality control of the artillery shell driving band.

These trials determine what is the optimum use to preclude shell hitting muzzle brake. Not heating.

While their concern is touching, the real issue seems to be after the 100 K-9 guns what next for the L&T factory? It could get some of the Dhanush guns as a build to print order. The AIDEF wants to prevent hat by asking cancellation of the K-9 order.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Aug 2017 01:08

ramana wrote:Rakesh, Please go easy on this fair use thing No one is suing us. its a silly forum for god sakes and who can people discuss without knowing what I says. Are we a click bait forum?

Ramana Saar, it is not a matter of if, but just a matter of when. But no more from me Saar on this.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 30 Aug 2017 06:22

Rakesh wrote:
SaiK wrote:Accident That Killed Two Soldiers Throws Shadow Over “Sub-standard” South Korean Guns Ordered by India
https://newsclick.in/accident-killed-tw ... ered-india
Newsclick Report 28 Aug 2017
Should the above not suffice Sir? Copyright, Fair Use, etc, etc, etc.

Apologies for quoting Rakesh and SaiK.
My comments are not at you but at us.

What did we do after our T-72 barrels exploded.
What do we do after lose a pilot to a mig or su crash ?

We ground the planes, learn the lessons and move on. Same will be done by the Koreans.
Nothing more to see here, move on.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 30 Aug 2017 09:26

SaiK wrote:Accident That Killed Two Soldiers Throws Shadow Over “Sub-standard” South Korean Guns Ordered by India
https://newsclick.in/accident-killed-tw ... ered-india
Newsclick Report 28 Aug 2017

The South Korean Army has decided to halt exercising with the K-9 howitzers which India has ordered, after an explosion of the howitzer killed two soldiers.

And who holds these idiots responsible for hundreds of casualties over decades of substandard artillery charges, shells, bursting barrels, mortars, jammed rifles, misfiring cartridges and what not

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Aug 2017 09:36

Rakesh wrote:
ramana wrote:Rakesh, Please go easy on this fair use thing No one is suing us. its a silly forum for god sakes and who can people discuss without knowing what I says. Are we a click bait forum?
Ramana Saar, it is not a matter of if, but just a matter of when. But no more from me Saar on this.

Rak bhai, I checked their about us- they are fine with both linking and posting.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Aug 2017 10:18

Khalsa wrote:
Snip....
What did we do after our T-72 barrels exploded.
What do we do after lose a pilot to a mig or su crash ?

We ground the planes, learn the lessons and move on. Same will be done by the Koreans.
Nothing more to see here, move on.

You and I and most people on this forum will understand that. The more important question is why did people from the so called federation did not understand that they felt compelled to write this letter to defence minister.

How soon will we see rest of DDM pick up this matter and make a bofers out of this?

That is my main worry regarding this whole issue.

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 30 Aug 2017 13:46

SaiK wrote:Accident That Killed Two Soldiers Throws Shadow Over “Sub-standard” South Korean Guns Ordered by India
https://newsclick.in/accident-killed-tw ... ered-india
Newsclick Report 28 Aug 2017

Let's see who this AIDEF is...

All India Defence Employees Federation is a trade union in India that organizes civilian workers in factories and other establishments under the Ministry of Defence. AIDEF is supported jointly by the Centre of Indian Trade Unions and the All India Trade Union Congress. AIDEF was founded in 1953.

Now who is Centre of Indian Trade Unions?

Centre of Indian Trade Unions (Hindi: भारतीय ट्रेड यूनियन केन्द्र), CITU is a National level Trade Union in India politically affiliated to the Communist Party of India (Marxist) as its trade union wing and is a spearhead of the Indian Trade Union Movement.

And who is All India Trade Union Congress?

The All India Trade Union Congress (AITUC) is the oldest trade union federations in India.It is not Politically affiliated to any political party including theCommunist Party of India. But itself is the third largest Communist Party in India after CPI(M) and CPI.

All references from WiKi chachi.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 30 Aug 2017 21:03

I really dont understand this shell hitting the muzzle break theory. The muzzle is already enlarged to a size more than the tube bore. Does the shell start tumbling or wobbling right at the muzzle mouth? If its doing that, what is the dispersion of the projectile going to be down range? And what is the kind of forces required to wobble the shell after it has been imparted the full 'spin' needed to stabilize itself?

This can only happen, as Ramana pointed out, if the joint between the driving band and the projectile fails and the shell starts balloting. If that is the case, its a problem with the shell, not the gun. Perhaps the join that was strong enough to withstand the forces imparted by a 39 caliber gun needs to be further strengthened for a 45 and a 52 caliber gun. Further, the same problem is likely to be seen regardless of whether its the Dhanush or any imported gun. Given that the maximum acceleration forces are exerted on the shell closer to the breach than the muzzle, thats where the join would fail and such a failure can cause the shell to even explode in the barrel..

We should induct some of the Dhanush with a 39 caliber barrel, expend the shells produced so far, and rebarrel the guns with the longer tube some time later to fire new shells that are more robust.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 30 Aug 2017 22:42

Why is this news item comparing K9 with Dhanush and other towed guns ? Ddmitis ?

Shouldn't they be mentioning that Denel gun on Arjun chasis ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Aug 2017 23:08

The barrel by design has to be larger in diameter than the shell. The shell contacts the barrel at two areas: driving band which is near the base of the shell and the bourrelet which is slightly above midpoint of the shell. The shell gets a spin due to the rifling and the driving band engaging the barrel. Now it becomes rotating body like a top. Recall the bourrelet has to have clearance i.e. slightly lesser diameter or the shell gets stuck. So now this wobble like a top or lattu as it travels along the barrel.

Wiki Definition : The bourrelet is the portion of an elongated artillery projectile having a very slightly smaller diameter than the interior diameter of the barrel through which that projectile is to be propelled.

More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourrelet

To my understanding the shell casing is made from a machined forging from bar stock. This machining is done on a CNC lathe. So it spins true to axis. And the tolerances are very precise. The shell is filled with organic chemicals which spread evenly. Hence there is no off axis issues due to off balance masses. Within engineering tolerances. An example of the mfg process details is in US Mil-HDBK 756 with detail pictures of the M107 shell mfg process.

The other way of the wobbling phenomenon is the driving band comes loose. This is a shrink fit and should not come loose normally. However in the CAG report there are pictures of shells with corrosion at the aft of the shell which is where the driving band is located. It looks like dissimilar metal/galvanic corrosion. The driving band could come off.

I think if you understand the drivers, high charge will cause more spin and chances of wobble in longer barrels.

Wobble could lead to barrel burst.

Muzzle brake strike is a reliability issue as the shell gets a side load which will cause dispersion.

I don't think the solution is to redesign the Dhanush to the 39 calibers. The solution is to store the ammo after being received from OFB is proper storage depots to ensure safe firing.

In the MoD steering committee review it is clearly stated OFB responsibility stops at delivery of product to user agency. The user agency needs to have proper storage facilities. The life of explosive products is 10 years with extension to 20 years. The shell that wobbled in the Dhanush development trials was 12 years old. So was on extension.

Recent defense budget allocations were to upgrade the Army storage depots and to have EOD units to dispose of unsafe ordnance there due to any reasons.

As an example, side slap/wobble/ balloting induces loads up to 40,000 gs. This could explode the ammo without any need for a fuze!!!

This wobble business is not confined only to howitzers. it could be in tank guns with HE shells and could lead to barrel burst there too.

On thinking about it I am not sure if the old T-72 barrel burst due to inadequate tempering is the root cause or just one of the causes.

The Korean K9 shell issue is premature ignition of the charge is what I think. The phenomenon of smoke and charge ignition all show its not the shell nor the gun. Its operating procedures to ensure barrel smoke evacuation.

So AIDEF charge of K9 guns being defective is wrong.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 30 Aug 2017 23:47

Ramana, my point is, if the existing shells have a driving band-shell connection that fails under the stresses of a larger caliber, one option may be to produce some Dhanush to a spec that is able to utilize the existing stock. We may need new shells for the new, bigger guns.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Aug 2017 23:53

Only a few fail and could be secondary causes.

OFB already has a 155mm 39 caliber making capacity so the Bofors can be re-barreled.
Already a large number of 130mm have been up-barreled.

IA needs the 45 caliber quite badly for doctrine.
45 calibers gives 10 km extra range and accurately.

If OFB and Army is given time they will solve it.
Meantime the press is being fed motivated stories to press for imports.

This is a big OFB R&D project and should be supported.
It gives major boost.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 31 Aug 2017 00:12

Agreed, Dhanush and ATAGS should get all the support they need. If muzzle strikes is an issue, it can only be improper storage or design of the shell. We should go ahead and induct the gun with a 39 cal barrel and rebarrel it later.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Aug 2017 01:43

FYI: ^^kapilrdave ji

Move to Transfer Military Ammunition Technology to Private Vendors Stirs Controversy
Defence employees have objected to the DRDO Laboratory's move to transfer key ammunition technology to private players.

https://newsclick.in/move-transfer-mili ... ontroversy

/have you all seen street fights in desh? first thing they do is catch your shirt at the choking point/neck.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Aug 2017 04:02

I hate to be a constant moan but please look at OFBs long term track on ammunition manufacture. It is a saga of intense wastage of fiscal resources and almost no improvement in process of quality assurance. Given this, the only way to salvage India's defence preparedness is to move explosives and ammunition integration to PSUs and private sector firms which are not as dysfunctional as OFB and gradually disinvest or divest OFB to the private sector. Solar, Premier etc can handle explosives. Bharat forge, BHEL, SAIL, Midhani etc can handle the forgings. BDL can handle the integration. Options exist, the will is required. Without significant restructuring OFB is not going to go anywhere. It was in the 1980s that DRDO started working with OFB for ammunition. Three decades later, DRDOs private partners eg L&T, Godrej and Boyce have grown from strength to strength, whereas OFB remains as it is. Even imported items, with ostensible TOT haven't worked out and OFB bigwigs were accused of making wrong purchases
In this milieu, with the Armed forces starved of ammunition, big-ticket items, it is sheer dereliction from GOI's end if it persists with only the OFB option and does not on priority basis rope in the private sector.

Time is of the essence.As Doklam showed, Indias rise is contested heavily by PRC and it is beyond bizarre that a country with the engineerng capability of India is deliberately only relying on OFB, for what, votes?

How many workers in OFB, can they single handedly make BJP lose 2019? Not really. If employment generation is vital let OFB focus on low value added items and move the critical aspects to the private sector or PSUs with much better QA systems.

BHEL for instance license assembles guns too.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 31 Aug 2017 04:35

The days of entitlement are gone. Perform or perish. The other thing that must perish is that the orders should go to the public sector to keep IP safe. That's another pile of stinking manure.

Vidur · Post by **Vidur** » 31 Aug 2017 15:53

Indranil wrote:The days of entitlement are gone. Perform or perish.

They haven't gone anywhere.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 31 Aug 2017 20:32

If they are not gone, we must make efforts to end them! The world does not owe us Indians peace and stability and safeguarding of our interests abroad. These must be handled by ourselves and if we are unwilling to shed sweat now, we will shed blood later.

nam · Post by **nam** » 31 Aug 2017 21:21

The major reason for PSU/DPSU continuation is because babus can have a wonderful CEO type jobs with all the privileges at tax payers expense.

There are 235 Central PSU. That takes cares of at-least 470 top babus, who could not bribe their way in to PMO/Ministry.

Defense production could have such a manufacturing base. With even 5-7 billion of orders every year to private defense companies would give substantial mass to compete with Chinese , American or Russian companies. The DPSU do not fulfill their MoD order nor upgrade, nor let us export.

trying to save employment for 150K has fundamentally blocked a industry, which could add tremendously to national manufacturing and technology base.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 31 Aug 2017 21:26

Karan M wrote:..Options exist, the will is required. ..

We don't even have a full time defense minister. What does that say about will?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Aug 2017 22:36

Nam and Karan - good thoughts.

I am constantly amazed at how well organized and vocal central govt/PSU employees hold policy hostage - whether AI or PSU or DPSU all have militant unions with a pov that benefits only themselves not the country usually.

I somehow feel the political class has a cut on the cash flows and vast physical assets of these PSUs like guest houses, motor pool, CSR budgets to buy wives artwork, kickbacks etc and none want to rock the boat.

a few lakh people hold hostage 1.3 billion