Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Engine development:India in danger of being left behind
https://www.deccanherald.com/state/top- ... 49691.html
https://www.deccanherald.com/state/top- ... 49691.html
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
I think there is no effort to absorb whatever MFG tech we have in regards to the engine. Hence what we design we imagine the ways to manufacture without even going through the assets we already have. We are having all the tech (including the single crystal) for the last two decades including the core testing facility with us and these critical components are doing fine in service. I think HTSE SC blades are produced completely here within the country. Initially they did nor use the tech thinking better option would be available. But MFG implementation is a shop floor high time consuming research effort. One has to toil day and night to qualify a new component. Component by component a team has to integrate and test the assembly. HAL has the experience of last five decades and believe me it is world standard. We sit and do no go to the MFG section to see what we have and in what way we are producing supersonic engine for the last two decades almost every part of it barring few. The planners there should be having complete knowledge of what resources and skill we have. I think GTRE could have utilized the HAL facility and skill for engine development including the SCB. But they did not. You have to personally go and acquire the skill, set the processing route with proper planning and after many iterations these things fructify. We have all the infrastructure and skill to do it and we have been doing it for decades. However, we are not applying it for our own design. The extent of deep tech transfer which we have from Russia in mind boggling. Had it been other country, it would have had been a completed task. Only if we can visit with an access to the MFG route one can understand how under utilized our facilities have been. Many air force officers also agree with me. If a team is entrusted, given the facilities and skill we have, I assure you all, it will take hardly three years with round the clock activity. Unfortunately this is not happening!
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
the engine deal between DRDO and French firm Safran for the development of combat engines for the indigenous Tejas fighters may have fallen through due to high costs.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Good first post. I completely agree with the last statement. We never really tried.MohanMP wrote:I think there is no effort to absorb whatever MFG tech we have in regards to the engine. Hence what we design we imagine the ways to manufacture without even going through the assets we already have. We are having all the tech (including the single crystal) for the last two decades including the core testing facility with us and these critical components are doing fine in service. I think HTSE SC blades are produced completely here within the country. Initially they did nor use the tech thinking better option would be available. But MFG implementation is a shop floor high time consuming research effort. One has to toil day and night to qualify a new component. Component by component a team has to integrate and test the assembly. HAL has the experience of last five decades and believe me it is world standard. We sit and do no go to the MFG section to see what we have and in what way we are producing supersonic engine for the last two decades almost every part of it barring few. The planners there should be having complete knowledge of what resources and skill we have. I think GTRE could have utilized the HAL facility and skill for engine development including the SCB. But they did not. You have to personally go and acquire the skill, set the processing route with proper planning and after many iterations these things fructify. We have all the infrastructure and skill to do it and we have been doing it for decades. However, we are not applying it for our own design. The extent of deep tech transfer which we have from Russia in mind boggling. Had it been other country, it would have had been a completed task. Only if we can visit with an access to the MFG route one can understand how under utilized our facilities have been. Many air force officers also agree with me. If a team is entrusted, given the facilities and skill we have, I assure you all, it will take hardly three years with round the clock activity. Unfortunately this is not happening!
Do you know for sure HTSE SCB are made in India..? If yes, is it HAL in house MFG using the Russian Tech from Al31..?
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
As posted earlier, I have seen the SCBs being produced in GOI facilities. Only DRDO/GTRE can confirm for sure if this has progressed beyond the experimental stage.JayS wrote:Good first post. I completely agree with the last statement. We never really tried.
Do you know for sure HTSE SCB are made in India..? If yes, is it HAL in house MFG using the Russian Tech from Al31..?
Problem is that everyone involved will have to cede a bit of control for the viability of the project and the usual and bitter turf wars have scuttled many a viable project.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
SC blades are made in the country.chetak wrote:as posted earlier, I have seen the SCBs beingklopp produced in GOI facilities. Only DRDO/GTRE can confirm for sure if this has progressed beyond the experimental stage.
Problem is that everyone involved will have to cede a bit of control for the viability of the project and the usual and bitter turf wars have scuttled many a viable project.
We have infra to investment cast of SC blades. We have been doing it for last one and half decade. In early days rejection rates were high. That has been under control. However we never used the infra for our own design till now. Oviousely we also produce DS blades. All types of blades are produced. However we never utilized the skill and the infra for our own design. Our designers did not design taking into consideration our available MFG and testing facility of engine. Even HAL overlooked it.
Designer should know the available manufacturing resources for implementation of design.
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Why don't we design a drone with existing Kaveri
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Folks there is some thing wrong with the picture of Kaveri engine if you look from earned value management (EVM) perspective.
Ok. Lets look.
Kaveri revised cost to complete is- 250M (SAFRAN Offset)+ 500 M= 750 M Euros
DRDO has already spent 240 M euros.
So total Kaveri project cost is 240+750M = 990M euros
So in money spent the revised progress is 240/990= 24%
However DRDO says Kaveri is only a few KN short of desired requirement and we have been blue in the face quoting that.
Besides only few months back SAFRAN had said Kaveri is good to fly and should be flight tested.
Agreed its a few KN short.
So obviously there is a huge gap in assessing the Kaveri progress.
Does the revised estimates include cost of fabrication facilities?
We are missing something. And the DRDO scientist whom Pubby talked to did not tell the whole picture.
If the progress is really only 24% it needs a fresh start and can spend the 500M Euros and get on with it.
Basically for 750M Euros one can design a new Kaveri engine and move on.
Someone needs to tell the truth and its not being told.
Ok. Lets look.
Kaveri revised cost to complete is- 250M (SAFRAN Offset)+ 500 M= 750 M Euros
DRDO has already spent 240 M euros.
So total Kaveri project cost is 240+750M = 990M euros
So in money spent the revised progress is 240/990= 24%
However DRDO says Kaveri is only a few KN short of desired requirement and we have been blue in the face quoting that.
Besides only few months back SAFRAN had said Kaveri is good to fly and should be flight tested.
Agreed its a few KN short.
So obviously there is a huge gap in assessing the Kaveri progress.
Does the revised estimates include cost of fabrication facilities?
We are missing something. And the DRDO scientist whom Pubby talked to did not tell the whole picture.
If the progress is really only 24% it needs a fresh start and can spend the 500M Euros and get on with it.
Basically for 750M Euros one can design a new Kaveri engine and move on.
Someone needs to tell the truth and its not being told.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
I think MAD needs to get to bottom of Kaveri first.ArjunPandit wrote:Why don't we design a drone with existing Kaveri
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
A quick list of what we assume to be true about the Kaveri
1. Dry thrust requirement - Met
2. Wet thrust requirement - Shortfall
3. Adequate to power Tejas Mk1/A - Nein.
We need something to power the MWF (200 should be ordered) and perhaps MLU the Tejas Mk1/A (another 123) too. That is a cool near 350 engines.
1. Dry thrust requirement - Met
2. Wet thrust requirement - Shortfall
3. Adequate to power Tejas Mk1/A - Nein.
We need something to power the MWF (200 should be ordered) and perhaps MLU the Tejas Mk1/A (another 123) too. That is a cool near 350 engines.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
On digging further, SAFRAN was offering a new core based on M88 to fit the Kaveri Turbofan Casing and afterburner (TCA)
I recall saying this was most expensive option.*
GTRE/DRDO is right in rejecting the offer as they already have a working core in Kabini and know what it takes to design and build it.
For 500M euros they can redo the Kaveri completely and should go for it.
* Let me dig this old post.
I recall saying this was most expensive option.*
GTRE/DRDO is right in rejecting the offer as they already have a working core in Kabini and know what it takes to design and build it.
For 500M euros they can redo the Kaveri completely and should go for it.
* Let me dig this old post.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Ok Here goes:
viewtopic.php?p=2254798#p2254798
And SAFRAN instead of bringing 580M Euros is bringing 250M Euros.
Which means DRDO has to bring 500M Euros jus for this upsized core.
And they already spent 240 M Euros to get the current Kaveri engine (kabini Core+TCA)
So doubly whammy.
Higher price and lower contribution.
And for that 500M Euros money, DRDO can do the job themselves.
I concur.
viewtopic.php?p=2254798#p2254798
So DRDO/GTRE is finding that resizing the M-88 core to fit the Kaveri TCA (Turbo Fan, Casing and After Burner) will be priced at 750M Euros.ts the offset money.
They are supposed to channel it back.
If it happens will be happy.
The M88Core-Kaveri has turbo fan+ engine casing and afterburner section and M88 core.
We know the M88 core is smaller than the Kaveri casing from earlier reports.
I think there are two options here.
1) Increase the M88 core diameter to match the Kaveri system. This means keep the rest of the (TCA) T/F+ Casing+ AB same.
- This option is risky as changing core to match the TCA could be tricky.
- However GTRE will learn the most from this option as they learn to resize the core.
2) Keep the M 88 core as it works and redo the TCA as GTRE knows how.
- Could be long drawn out process as three systems have to be developed: T/F+ Casing + AB And more costly from Indian side. Kind of defeats the offsets as India gets to spend twice.
- GTRE wont learn anything new as they already had developed the TCA. Redoing the TCA is not new technology.
I would choose option 1 as from India learning point of view this is better option.
And this way India has its own Kabini + core that can be leveraged into other engines;
Mig 29 and Su 30 engine replacement programs eventually.
And SAFRAN instead of bringing 580M Euros is bringing 250M Euros.
Which means DRDO has to bring 500M Euros jus for this upsized core.
And they already spent 240 M Euros to get the current Kaveri engine (kabini Core+TCA)
So doubly whammy.
Higher price and lower contribution.
And for that 500M Euros money, DRDO can do the job themselves.
I concur.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 684809.cms
ET has learnt that DRDO did not find this price reasonable and is no longer considering the upgraded Kaveri engine for the next batch of 83 LCAs to be made in India or the Mark-2 version of the jet planned in the near future. The fighter jets are now likely to be powered by engines supplied by US’ General Electric. DRDO has spent more than €240 million on the Kaveri project so far without success.
ET has learnt that DRDO did not find this price reasonable and is no longer considering the upgraded Kaveri engine for the next batch of 83 LCAs to be made in India or the Mark-2 version of the jet planned in the near future. The fighter jets are now likely to be powered by engines supplied by US’ General Electric. DRDO has spent more than €240 million on the Kaveri project so far without success.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Manu Pubby and the DRDO officials did not bother to explain why the price is unreasonable.
Read my post above.
Read my post above.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
So what happens to Kaveri now? Okay, we can cross it off for the Tejas. We already expect the 414 for the MWF. The truth is we didn't expect to use the Kaveri for Tejas before SAFRAN's involvement and this won't impact the Tejas' and its follow-ons' timelines.
The question is whether we would continue to develop it on our own for, say, a mark of the AMCA. Or does this decision mean we have given up on the Kaveri as a fighter engine? There are reports of it being pursued as a drone engine but that would signify an acceptance of a minor role for the project as well.
The question is whether we would continue to develop it on our own for, say, a mark of the AMCA. Or does this decision mean we have given up on the Kaveri as a fighter engine? There are reports of it being pursued as a drone engine but that would signify an acceptance of a minor role for the project as well.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Kaveri has been plagued for decades.As I mentioned a few years ago, even the late APJAK was warned by a former VCoAS that the GTRE were taking us for a ride.He, the AM, had kept insisting that a working engine was the first decision required for the LCA's success, but the GTRE's tall talk prevailed.The LCA programme suffered and even the promised marine gas turbine variant to power our warships never appeared. 16 years ago they told APJAK that it would be ready in 3 months time. It still hasn't. What ails the outfit and its inability to deliver is a matter of priority for the GOI. Huge sums have been invested. Athorough inquiry must be made. We cannot aspire to become a major aerospace power unless we are able to design and build our own engines.We will be perpetually dependent upon a foreign engine and foreign aircraft as well. 20 years ago I said that we needed a new engine research institute to be able to deliver in time almost every type of fixed wing and rotary engine required for our requirements.The time is now ripe to plan for it asap.The crash of Kaveri will impact future ambitious programmes like the AMCA.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
if the kaveri is to have a future and be the father of new engines, it must be
- put on Mig29S and IL76 testbeds - these can be used for testing future engines also
- used for Ghatak/aura atleast
- derated one used for the SPORT AJT in mid 2020s
else its not only a complete writeoff but all the engineers who developed the knowledge base will retire soon or have already done so.
all engine efforts needs to be merged into a common body under PMO control unlike HAL doing its own laghu shakti and manik type things with no gtre involvement
- put on Mig29S and IL76 testbeds - these can be used for testing future engines also
- used for Ghatak/aura atleast
- derated one used for the SPORT AJT in mid 2020s
else its not only a complete writeoff but all the engineers who developed the knowledge base will retire soon or have already done so.
all engine efforts needs to be merged into a common body under PMO control unlike HAL doing its own laghu shakti and manik type things with no gtre involvement
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
***POOF***
Last edited by Rakesh on 16 Aug 2019 17:51, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: No personal attacks, please.
Reason: No personal attacks, please.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
If kaveri is to power LCA-Mk1A and MWF which costs more than 25 billion euro over complete life cycle and they are throwing all these for extra 250 million euros, doesn't make sense to me.kit wrote:https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 684809.cms
ET has learnt that DRDO did not find this price reasonable and is no longer considering the upgraded Kaveri engine for the next batch of 83 LCAs to be made in India or the Mark-2 version of the jet planned in the near future. The fighter jets are now likely to be powered by engines supplied by US’ General Electric. DRDO has spent more than €240 million on the Kaveri project so far without success.
Also, if safron unable to adhere to offset obligation ,and it is G2G deal, should it be discussed at government level rather than some officials in DRDO to cancel the project.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Penny wise pound foolish.
The Americans, Soviets, and the French did not spend hundreds of millions to develop their engine technology. They spent billions of dollars in their R&D to develop basic versions of fighter jet engines and more billions to refine those engines into the engines we know today and DRDO is balking at ponying up $500M to learn billions of dollars worth of knowledge and save some years in the process when after learning all the knowledge they could use it to make $25 billion dollars worth of engines in the future?
I simply do not know what to say. Sometimes DRDO doesn't have a long term or strategic foresight and get bogged in the minutiae details. Essentially they are missing the forest for the trees.
The Americans, Soviets, and the French did not spend hundreds of millions to develop their engine technology. They spent billions of dollars in their R&D to develop basic versions of fighter jet engines and more billions to refine those engines into the engines we know today and DRDO is balking at ponying up $500M to learn billions of dollars worth of knowledge and save some years in the process when after learning all the knowledge they could use it to make $25 billion dollars worth of engines in the future?
I simply do not know what to say. Sometimes DRDO doesn't have a long term or strategic foresight and get bogged in the minutiae details. Essentially they are missing the forest for the trees.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Wrt the highlighted part ... pls could you list out, what exactlyhgupta wrote:Penny wise pound foolish.
The Americans, Soviets, and the French did not spend hundreds of millions to develop their engine technology. They spent billions of dollars in their R&D to develop basic versions of fighter jet engines and more billions to refine those engines into the engines we know today and DRDO is balking at ponying up $500M to learn billions of dollars worth of knowledge and save some years in the process when after learning all the knowledge they could use it to make $25 billion dollars worth of engines in the future?
I simply do not know what to say. Sometimes DRDO doesn't have a long term or strategic foresight and get bogged in the minutiae details. Essentially they are missing the forest for the trees.
And how exactly is the "... $25B worth of engines ..." arrived at?
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
offset "obligations" are not carved in stone.nash wrote:If kaveri is to power LCA-Mk1A and MWF which costs more than 25 billion euro over complete life cycle and they are throwing all these for extra 250 million euros, doesn't make sense to me.kit wrote:https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 684809.cms
ET has learnt that DRDO did not find this price reasonable and is no longer considering the upgraded Kaveri engine for the next batch of 83 LCAs to be made in India or the Mark-2 version of the jet planned in the near future. The fighter jets are now likely to be powered by engines supplied by US’ General Electric. DRDO has spent more than €240 million on the Kaveri project so far without success.
Also, if safron unable to adhere to offset obligation ,and it is G2G deal, should it be discussed at government level rather than some officials in DRDO to cancel the project.
In principle, it means that a certain percentage of the deal is spent in the purchasing country to help it to develop its own MIC but truly no country in the world will part with any meaningful technology as part of the offset deals and it would be foolish on our part to expect such critical technology offsets to be served up to us on a silver platter with watercress surrounding it.
If mere goodwill and G2G transactions dictated technology transfers, why then are we still groping around with the SU30 production and why has no core engine tech ever been served up to us by our good friends, the soviets.
why did we not think of doing what the hans very routinely do in all their "contracts".
is it that we didn't or we couldn't.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Interesting points MohanMP ... if possible, without going into classified details etc, pls could you elaborate the following:MohanMP wrote:SC blades are made in the country.
We have infra to investment cast of SC blades. We have been doing it for last one and half decade. In early days rejection rates were high. That has been under control. However we never used the infra for our own design till now. Obviously we also produce DS blades. All types of blades are produced. However we never utilized the skill and the infra for our own design. Our designers did not design taking into consideration our available MFG and testing facility of engine. Even HAL overlooked it.
Designer should know the available manufacturing resources for implementation of design.
1) If GTRE/MIDHANI/HAL Engine Div et all have been able to master High Hardness Ceramic Core Die (of 60 HRC levels) manufacturing? As you are aware we had mastered Medium Hardness Ceramic Die (of 40HRC levels) using P20 steel etc, around 2009-10 (IIRC), but that won't be enough to go into volume production as it would be good for approx 1500 injections (good enough for prototype dev etc).
2) There was another parallel initiative of trying to get High Hardness Ceramic Core Dies manufactured via HIP ... where are we on this?
3) Wrt film-cooling, where are we wrt laser hole drilling of shaped-hole-exits on TBC-applied-blades ? Or are we still reliant on getting the cooling passages created via Dies only? I ask this as we have seen various "grainy images" of HPT blades with blade-tip-cooling-holes etc.
4) When DMS4 based SC blade tech was already available in house, why didn't HAL engine division use it for the HPT stages for HTFE-25? Why did they constraint themselves to 1200deg K TeT levels via equiaxed casted ones?
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
DRDO probably lacks the expertise to do an "ISRO" on aero engines i think, so unless it can spend near to a billion $$ .... its rather close to their annual budget i guess ... but haven't they got results for what they spend on it.. wonder how they ll retain the talent and expertise they built up till nownash wrote:If kaveri is to power LCA-Mk1A and MWF which costs more than 25 billion euro over complete life cycle and they are throwing all these for extra 250 million euros, doesn't make sense to me.kit wrote:https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 684809.cms
ET has learnt that DRDO did not find this price reasonable and is no longer considering the upgraded Kaveri engine for the next batch of 83 LCAs to be made in India or the Mark-2 version of the jet planned in the near future. The fighter jets are now likely to be powered by engines supplied by US’ General Electric. DRDO has spent more than €240 million on the Kaveri project so far without success.
Also, if safron unable to adhere to offset obligation ,and it is G2G deal, should it be discussed at government level rather than some officials in DRDO to cancel the project.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
GE is in big trouble.
http://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/15/ge-share ... nting.html
Stock at 8 $, 5 year low https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GE/
I wonder if this would be a good time to order 300 414s with technology transfer / Make in India
http://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/15/ge-share ... nting.html
Stock at 8 $, 5 year low https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GE/
I wonder if this would be a good time to order 300 414s with technology transfer / Make in India
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Not going to happen. It's not up to GE but US DOS/DOD.ashbhee wrote:GE is in big trouble.
http://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/15/ge-share ... nting.html
Stock at 8 $, 5 year low https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GE/
I wonder if this would be a good time to order 300 414s with technology transfer / Make in India
That said, if GOI or Indian pvt sector had any foresight there were other nice bits of GE that could have been bought that would have been very useful, e.g their rail division.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
GE is made up of diff divisions. The aviation div is doing extremely well, keeping their nose out of the water, Cash cow. Even if something happens to the rest aviation could be spun off.ashbhee wrote:GE is in big trouble.
http://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/15/ge-share ... nting.html
Stock at 8 $, 5 year low https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GE/
I wonder if this would be a good time to order 300 414s with technology transfer / Make in India
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Saffran engine deal fail is a big problem. I suspect the Americans had a talk with the French. I hope GoI has a way else it'll be GE powdered tejas - something no one in the power corridors of Delhi wants. It would be more rational to go with f16 and dump the tejas/kaveri program.
Buying an american jet will be akeen to a death kneal because our interests in the western theater do not converge - there is collision of interests. The american policy of maintaining Pakistan as a guard against Russia gaining access to the warm waters stands till this day.
Buying an american jet will be akeen to a death kneal because our interests in the western theater do not converge - there is collision of interests. The american policy of maintaining Pakistan as a guard against Russia gaining access to the warm waters stands till this day.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
The deal to assemble the GE engines for the Tejas is already on the table. I believe they’ve selected it for the MWF and possibly even the AMCA. There is no correlation between GE’s (as a whole) financial health at any given time and its ability to offer greater technology transfer as this is a GOTUS decision. Even if it weren’t, GE would essentially be opening up to others using the family to seek the same leverage and thereby dilute GE’s long term revenues. Keep in mind that an F414 based and other GE engines is what is powering South Korea’s KFX, and Turkey’s TFX (for now). Additionally, SAAB uses the F414 on the Gripen E. GE is currently locked in GEW III for adaptive engines with it in advanced manufacturing of its first few prototype full up adaptive NG engines. This is not the time for it to pursue a fresh round of negotiations with GOTUS on relaxing technology transfer restrictions, especially on an engine family that has virtually won every third-party use competition it has been entered in so far (India, South Korea (twice), Sweden)ashbhee wrote:GE is in big trouble.
http://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/15/ge-share ... nting.html
Stock at 8 $, 5 year low https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GE/
I wonder if this would be a good time to order 300 414s with technology transfer / Make in India
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
So how will the offset obligations be fulfilled now?
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
If this is over 330M euros (580 - 250) from Safran - we are definitely missing forest for the trees. Safran will have to fulfill its offset obligations somewhere else for the rest of the money. So it is coming into the country anyway. DRDO does not seem to have the expertise to do this on its own. Safran might think it is not fair to get all the money from them for an entirely new tech as part of offsets. i would think the same way. They did agree to engine collaboration as part of the Rafale deal - which is the big one. Money - we shouldnt sweat over it this much. We had similar issues with the Russian AL-55I for IJT as well. IMO - we should pay up and get the tech instead of wrangling all the time. If we want to play with the big hitters on cutting edge tech collaboration - we need to think differently. We are not that small anymore - evidently as the big hitters are willing to deal with you! Some of the engine collaboration modalities between USA/France had much more onerous conditions agreed upon than simple money! Presidents intervened in those instances to make them happen - time for Modji to do the same here - just like he did for the deal itself! Maybe India should create a sovereign strategic technologies fund to handle situations like these.
Last edited by V_Raman on 17 Aug 2019 00:17, edited 9 times in total.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
didn't boeing build some dabbas/LRU boxes locally as part of their offset obligations for their P8I deal.Indranil wrote:So how will the offset obligations be fulfilled now?
using such creative methods of fulfilling offset obligations, these guys could easily help some local company to grow some special idaho potatoes used for KFC "french" fries, no
offset obligations are a wide canvas to paint on.
kaveri core is obviously out.
the israelis also use a very similar methodology of jacking up the prices to opt out of inconvenient promises without paying the penalty of a political fallout.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
I have not followed the Safran participation.V_Raman wrote:If this is over 330M euros (580 - 250) from Safran - we are definitely missing forest for the trees. Safran will have to fulfill its offset obligations somewhere else for the rest of the money. So it is coming into the country anyway. ............................
So, has Safran spent all that money to tell India the Kaveri does not work? Trying to get a better picture here. Thx.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
If you have not followed Safran's participation, then you should. That would be time better spent then comments like the above that add no value to the discussion at hand.
Last warning. Next time, there will be a ban.
Last warning. Next time, there will be a ban.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Does Saturn NPO have any engine it can offer to India? If it is screwdrivergiri or outright purchases (worth $25 Billion for all engines over the life time of the airframes) that will ultimately be done then lets go with somone who stood by us in UN today.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
For starters, they could learn how to construct their own testing bed and vacuum testing chambers and all other testing rigs and do it in house instead of relying on Russian testing rigs and come up with their own data and build on their own data in a much faster manner instead of doing it in piecemeal fashion. Something that they haven't done before and still are not doing right now.maitya wrote:Wrt the highlighted part ... pls could you list out, what exactlyhgupta wrote:Penny wise pound foolish.
The Americans, Soviets, and the French did not spend hundreds of millions to develop their engine technology. They spent billions of dollars in their R&D to develop basic versions of fighter jet engines and more billions to refine those engines into the engines we know today and DRDO is balking at ponying up $500M to learn billions of dollars worth of knowledge and save some years in the process when after learning all the knowledge they could use it to make $25 billion dollars worth of engines in the future?
I simply do not know what to say. Sometimes DRDO doesn't have a long term or strategic foresight and get bogged in the minutiae details. Essentially they are missing the forest for the trees.DRDOGTRE learn from such a JV? Atleast some items, can be listed out, right?
And how exactly is the "... $25B worth of engines ..." arrived at?
Also they will learn how to make machines that can precise mass manufacture high quality components and assemble them in a reliable efficient manner. And also be able to incorporate incremental changes after rigorous testing into those machines that produce those high quality parts. Something that they haven't done before and still are not doing right now.
As for the $25B worth of engines, easy - for the lifespan of a fighter jet which can last up to 45-50 years, it will take 3-4 engines (Midlife upgrades only happen every 5 to 6 years and the lifespan of an engine is 10-12 years). If you are planning on 800 LCA fighters total , that comes out to 2400-3200 engines. For the AMCA program where it has two engines and projected numbers are 250- 300 planes, that's 1200-1800 engines. Adding them altogether is 3600-5000 engines. On the low side, at $5M per engine you are looking at $18B-25B worth of engines. If it goes up to $7M per engine that's $25.2B-$35B. Realistically speaking, you are looking at $44B after taking into consideration of all life cycle costs into factor such as maintenance, 24/7 support, spares, etc.
So the number I quote, $25B, is really on the low side. You may say that the F414 engine only cost $4.1M but that was two years ago and you need to factor in the inflation cost and cost of setting up the infrastructure to mass manufacture the Kaveri engines. So realistically, any engine you buy is at the low end of $5M. Heck, the Honeywell engine upgrade is rated at $6M per engine and that is for a 40 year old engine design with far lower specs than the F404 engine.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
maitya,
Forgive me if this sounds utterly stupid but I have a q.
Ti-Al (I'll take 6Al 4V) has a density half that of cmsx4 plus, or thereabouts (4.4g/cc vs 8.9g/cc). Ti problem is the >600C region. Midhani SuperNi alloy in the kaveri hpc operates at around 750C. And they have Ti alloys developed for other processes that can work fine at 550/600C.
So, given the density differences, why not just apply a TBC layer on top of the Ti alloy and stuff it into the hpc stage and get weight savings by magic?
Forgive me if this sounds utterly stupid but I have a q.
Ti-Al (I'll take 6Al 4V) has a density half that of cmsx4 plus, or thereabouts (4.4g/cc vs 8.9g/cc). Ti problem is the >600C region. Midhani SuperNi alloy in the kaveri hpc operates at around 750C. And they have Ti alloys developed for other processes that can work fine at 550/600C.
So, given the density differences, why not just apply a TBC layer on top of the Ti alloy and stuff it into the hpc stage and get weight savings by magic?
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Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Bad news. This is effed up at so many levels. Frickin penny pinchers. They'll probably waster another 10 years on just deciding what route to pursue.The m88 core is capable of being upsized to 9kn. Yes it's a steep price, but if it means an engine that India has full control over and can power 100s of future fighters without being armtwisted over US sanctions or Russian shenanigans, it is all worth it.
At this point, I hope modi/shah peek into this and Get it done.
At this point, I hope modi/shah peek into this and Get it done.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Boss DRDO is not the right agency to decide should be spent $500 Million or not, it is not their call. Their call is can they do the technology? They have assured multiple times in the past and failed. Someone (mod) should step in and order it. Have the knowledge skill flow to 2-3 groups - One DRDO agency, other some private big firm, other a bunch of enthusiast (but small player), even HAL. So that in their inflated ego even if DRDO refuses to learn, someone else will.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Sar, that report looks like a fishing expedition, to ask sensational questions so that important information can out of rebuttals or even informally. Things are not leaking out as they used and many people need info.fanne wrote:Boss DRDO is not the right agency to decide should be spent $500 Million or not, it is not their call. Their call is can they do the technology? They have assured multiple times in the past and failed. Someone (mod) should step in and order it. Have the knowledge skill flow to 2-3 groups - One DRDO agency, other some private big firm, other a bunch of enthusiast (but small player), even HAL. So that in their inflated ego even if DRDO refuses to learn, someone else will.