MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16 in Kashmir

[Aditya_V]

With Su -30 and R-77 when Su-30 has picked up speed, on 27-Feb-19 there were a Few F-16's and Su-30's doing subsonic cap when 2 more F-16 came with full afterburner for max speed and launched their Amraam, it was the best possible scenario where number of aircraft position were all in the F-16's favour.

It was a unique situation where we did not want to escalate.

Even Mig 29 and R-77 can be more than a match for F-16 Amraam C-5.

Air to air combat is not knight's jostling has many variables and launcher aircraft and bogey altitude and speed is one of the key factors in BVR AAM kills.

Rafale with Metoer can make it a very uneven contest, due to Metoer min and max range relatively lower radar cross section.

Notice after 10-15 minutes PAF completely retreated. They had planned a short 10-15 minute window, beyond that ones number parity had been achived they back off and returned to bases. Thats when Pakistani Army tanks thrashed civilian roads as thier protection was Nanga and they did not know that the promised PAF retaliation had failed.

Its all good in hindsight but we could never predict when exactly PAf was attacking that day. If in Additon to the 2 SU-30's of there were 2 more SU-30/Mig 29 behind say 50 km away with Awacs seeing that 2 F-16's were accelerating, these could have speed to Mach 2 and launched at perpendicular or side given those F-16's Launching the AMRAAM a really hard time as they would have been in a terrible position to dodge an incoming AAM. Thats why even on 3-4 occasions in March 2019 when the IAF was literally at the IB and Pakis uploaded videos of IAF aircraft there, the PAF refused to show up as they knew the IAF was prepared for thier tactics.

Check the twitter videos from 11-Mar-19 where Paki handles showed IAF aircraft were right at the IB/LOC. A lot of what happened on 27-Feb-19 was because we were in uncharted territory and could not predict what the Paki tactics were, once the Pakis showed their hand they could not repeat their trick.

[Cain Marko]

How would IAF possibly out range C5, even if wanted to?

With what BVR?

Please don't meteor. It will never be fleet wide in IAF.

AFAIK - R77 should match C5, and R27 will outrange it. As Aditya has posted above, it is just that PAF was able to use element of surprise for a few minutes and that didn't get it any real gains. Zilch. basically, they showed up, and threw the towel in the first round - that's all. If it would have continued for a little longer, and more MKIs would be pressed into action, they would have had massive losses.

The MKI can launch the r27 at much longer than say R77, and this has been known for a long time. Yes it is semi active, but that won't matter if the enemy can't shake off the Bars, which it won't at those ranges.

[shaun]

We have procured R-27R1/ER1 and R-27T1/ET1 variants after balakot

[nam]

So fundamentally nothing different from what we already have.

Can we then laid down this outranged issue to rest?

[shaun]

Well there maybe difference in brochure specs

[Aditya_V]

And bought 400RVV-AE and 300 R73 missiles. So I don't think the IAF really doubts the capability of these missiles. Plus tested the RVV MD /SD/BD missiles and kept a lid any such purchases.

[fanne]

If my hypothesis is right, not firing r-77 on feb 27 does not have to do with either Roe or whose range is more.
We were carrying limited number r-77 (and 73) as we were on continuous cap (and would not lug infinite number of missiles, simply to preserve them, else we would use up billion dollar worth of missiles within 10 days, be aam manga and poorer by billions - without firing a single shot).
That fateful day, both side did not have a firing solution. Paf came prepared with more planes and more missile and took their chances and failed). Since our side had limited r-77 (unless other loaded orp planes came about), it was not fired because of lack of firing solution (read range and relative position).

[khan]

IMO All the IAF shortcomings mentioned here are actually lessons leant.

IAF seems to have been structured and deployed more for a total war scenario than to win a quick 20 minute knife fight (which is reasonable)

Everything mentioned here can be remedied by simple change in tactics (they don’t even need new equipment). For eg, the next time IAF is expecting something from Pakistan, they can have 4 SU-30’s - with a full load of R-77 & R-73, forward deployed in Srinagar, at both ends of the end of the runway - pilots strapped in and ready to take off. This can augment the MiG-21’s already there.

No need to wait for hardened shelters for this or the acquisition of any new missiles. If the planes end up not having to take off, the life cycle of the missiles isn’t reduced.

Given that they have already bought actual equipment (S-400, a CIWS someone mentioned, more AA missiles and god only knows what else) - I am sure that tactics have also evolved - and are not being publicized for obvious reasons.

If Pakistan were to try this again, the results would be very different this time.

[nam]

I wonder what would have been the narrative if the Mig21 was not shot down? I take all the hard feelings about not firing the R77, RoE etc is becoz of Mig21.

[nam]

By the way, there was one interesting intuition I had about the Feb 26 attack last year.

Feb 25 was the inauguration day of the National Memorial. DD showed the PM along with the Service chiefs walking around the memorial and checking out the paintings on the wall. There most interesting part of that was the IAF Chief was behind the other two chiefs and PM, although he was the senior most.

You could make out easily, he was completely lost in his own thoughts. I felt he was lost in thoughts about some important that was coming up..

So I was awake till 3.30 IST watching Netra go up and down Rajasthan on Flight Radar, without realizing what was happening!

Stuff you get from public data.. if you know where to look!

[manjgu]

If my hypothesis is right, not firing r-77 on feb 27 does not have to do with either Roe or whose range is more.
We were carrying limited number r-77 (and 73) as we were on continuous cap (and would not lug infinite number of missiles, simply to preserve them, else we would use up billion dollar worth of missiles within 10 days, be aam manga and poorer by billions - without firing a single shot).
That fateful day, both side did not have a firing solution. Paf came prepared with more planes and more missile and took their chances and failed). Since our side had limited r-77 (unless other loaded orp planes came about), it was not fired because of lack of firing solution (read range and relative position).

..agree ..air combat is too complex with many variables to reduce it to ..which missile had longer legs !

[vishvak]

Hopefully MiG 35s will be evaluated well considering MiG 21s performance. We don't have monies for Rafale or may be it's not coming anytime soon.

is that you phillip ji??

No saar, just to emphasize that MiG 21 has some great aspects such as easy to turnaround and definite advantages in certain combat scenarios that MiG 35s may have as well, and also such as simple to design parts wrt overall make etc.

[Khalsa]

Another part we quite often forget is the DACT exercises the PAF has been conducting with the PLAF Su-30 MKs.
They would have honed their skills to hold the Su-30s at bay or exploit their advantage as much as possible before relinquishing control of the airspace and falling back.

So far the F-16s have not visited the PRC but I am sure the Su-30 MKs have visited Pakistan.

[Cain Marko]

Another part we quite often forget is the DACT exercises the PAF has been conducting with the PLAF Su-30 MKs.
They would have honed their skills to hold the Su-30s at bay or exploit their advantage as much as possible before relinquishing control of the airspace and falling back.

So far the F-16s have not visited the PRC but I am sure the Su-30 MKs have visited Pakistan.

No doubt it will help to fight the mk. But the mki is an altogether different beast, both bvr and wvr. Totally.

I think the tspaf were well aware that their only chance was to use first mover advantage, fire as quickly as possible and scoot. And they did just that, and even then lost a bird.

[Cain Marko]

is that you phillip ji??

No saar, just to emphasize that MiG 21 has some great aspects such as easy to turnaround and definite advantages in certain combat scenarios that MiG 35s may have as well, and also such as simple to design parts wrt overall make etc.

People would love to diss the 35 as a useless bird, but based on iafs willingness to buy more smts, which indicates a favorable experience with the type, it might not be such a bad idea if they want larger numbers. Especially if they can port an uttam/derby er solution. It will be the cheapest and most hands on solution of all bar perhaps the gripen.

However, they need a very high end system to maintain a truly lopsided and unpredictable advantage. Hence the raffle. Another 36 is probly the best way forward. Numbers can be built up with more mk1 Tejas and smts in the short term.

[nam]

It is NOT Rafale which is bringing in the advantage. There is nothing special in Rafale, which we cannot upgrade our Su30 to. IAF is obessed about Rafale, becoz of M2K, that is a different story.

It is Meteor BVR, which will change the balance. We need to double down on SFDR(& dual pulse Astra) and induct it fleet wide.

[Aditya_V]

Rafale has a few advantages in some scenarios. Its use of composites and Shaped inlets reduces its RCS plus AESA with Metoer integration.

SU-30MKI has good power and will improve with AESA and latest Russian and Indian missiles. They can compliment each other.

[Rishirishi]

There seems to be several sources claiming that the Ruskie missiles are less capable comapred to Amrams (even c-5). I was wondering how the IAF evaluates the missiles. How are the missiles tested?

[Aditya_V]

No sources just media earning thier job. Search Atlantique incident in 1999 which was shot down with 1 R 60 missile.
Media reports at that R60 and R73 missed many times and how Python IV the missile IAF should buy. There is real money to be made in unexpected deals. So naturally promotions will be made.

[shaun]

American or western AAM are far better , Until now we have access to Ruskie maal as the platform too are from them . Given a chance , IAF will ditch ruskie maal for American. The various conflict where we have seen ample use of Long range AAM , Americans scored better.

[shaun]

There seems to be several sources claiming that the Ruskie missiles are less capable comapred to Amrams (even c-5). I was wondering how the IAF evaluates the missiles. How are the missiles tested?

how will IAF evaluate when AAM from ruskies are only available .

[fanne]

Just a lesson, how good is AIM missile family. Before 2019, AIM had grand total of 10 kills, in its 3 decades of service, max distance of fire was 6 miles and mainly us planes against Iraq, Serbia, Libya....
Our collective non fighter wisdom is really low. We do not know enough to claim xyz good bad because media said so, most, make it all media would not pass a simple math, science, logic class.

[Aditya_V]

And 6 of the 7 Amraams fired 27 Feb 19 missed.

[shaun]

Just a lesson, how good is AIM missile family. Before 2019, AIM had grand total of 10 kills, in its 3 decades of service, max distance of fire was 6 miles and mainly us planes against Iraq, Serbia, Libya....
Our collective non fighter wisdom is really low. We do not know enough to claim xyz good bad because media said so, most, make it all media would not pass a simple math, science, logic class.

US MIC have better exposure to test their hardware compared to others

[deejay]

I saw these posts now. Just to be clear, the Su 30 MKI pilots have been recognised.

Can you point me to any links on that Deejay. Much appreciated.

Check awards given on 15th Aug 19 and 26th Jan 20

[Aditya_V]

Didnt whether to post this here or in Mig 21 shoots F-16 since Balakot thread is locked

Balakot – The Inside Story: How IAF sought out and destroyed terror camps in Operation Bandar

On February 26, 2019, India planned a reprisal raid. Codenamed as ‘Operation Bandar' (possibly inspired by Hanuman’s successful mission to Lanka) to maintain a high level of secrecy, the strike force consisted of 12 Mirage 2000 jets. They were supported by three Su-30MKI aircraft to carry out fighter sweeps and keep the air space clear of interference by Pakistan Air Force.

The role Su-30 MKI's played was not not known earlier

On the question of how Pakistan Air Force was unable to detect Indian jets, Chhatwal said that it needs to be understood from the geographical perspective. The area where the strike took place is mountainous and lies about 60 ks away from the Line of Control. The strike force route was through mountainous terrain and the PAF does not have adequate radar cover in that area.

The main target was the Balakot terrorist camp, especially double-storey buildings where senior trainers along with trainees were lodged. To prevent collateral damage precision-guided penetration bombs, SPICE-2000, were used. SPICE-2000 has the capability to strike with an accuracy of one meter.

Out of the 12 Mirage-2000s, six were loaded with a single bomb in each aircraft out of which four were successful. One missed the target and the sixth one could not fire. Thus five planes fired five Spice 2000 bombs, of which four hit the targets

The Spice 2000 penetration bomb hit the target going through the roof first and then exploded on hitting the floor. Penetration bombs like SPICE 2000 bombs leave the walls intact but destroy everything inside – people and equipment. These bombs have a camera in the nose which has a feeding card placed like a chip inside the bomb, which has the details of the target, the route and the point of launch, all programmed into it.

What followed was air combat over the mountains in a retaliatory move by the Pakistan Air Force. However, as per the IAF press release, the incursion by the PAF was of only 8 to 10 km and Chhatwal points out that 8 to 10 km for a fighter aircraft at that speed and that height takes just a few seconds to cover. Pakistani jets did fire some H4 air to ground missiles, but not a single one hit the Army targets they had planned to strike.

[chetonzz]

Balakot Anniversary: IAF चीफ ने भरी MIG-21 में उड़ान, कहा- सीमा पार से हुई नापाक हरकत तो मिलेगा करारा जवाब

https://www.naidunia.com/national-balak ... er-5366643

[LakshmanPST]

https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... e-6286787/

Full text--->

One year after the Balakot strike and subsequent air operations, how do you look back at the events from February 2019 till now?

The Balakot airstrike redefined the use of air power towards meeting the national objective and has changed the paradigm of sub-conventional action and response in the subcontinent. The event itself, and the subsequent air operations on February 27, 2019, have remained in public attention with the battle of narratives spreading out to the masses over all forms of media. But the fact remains that the Balakot airstrikes were the most significant air action by the IAF in over four decades, when our fighters penetrated deep into Pakistan airspace, executed a precise attack on the terror camp and returned home unchallenged.
Over the last year, we have continued to focus on our operational training and readiness, induction of enhanced BVR (Beyond Visual Range) missiles, stand off weapon capability and upgradation of secure communications. We have looked closely at our modernisation and acquisition plans for prioritisation in line with the changing threat scenario.

What were the big lessons from Balakot? How will it impact planning for future missions?

The Balakot strikes clearly demonstrated the IAF’s level of operational preparedness and capability. The package was precisely coordinated and comprised combat aircraft and enablers from many bases across the country. The men and women concerned performed their tasks admirably under challenging conditions which is a testimony to their planning and training. This complex plan was conceived and executed in full secrecy and the mission went unchallenged even when PAF was on full alert.

As in any military action, there were several lessons learnt which have been implemented in terms of capability enhancement and future plans. We have instituted measures covering the entire spectrum of induction of new capability, operational training and tactics, which will further enhance the IAF’s operational capability to undertake any such mission at short notice.

How do you plan to realistically overcome the challenge of shortage of fighter aircraft, considering the state of funds allocated for capital acquisition and IAF’s committed liabilities?

We are aware of the reducing strength of combat platforms for some time now. We have already put into place measures to overcome the shortfalls by a combination of capacity and capability enhancements. We have instituted a series of midlife upgrades and weapons integrations on legacy platforms. The LCA Mk1A and MRFA should serve to halt the reducing trend, and LCA Mk2 will thereafter boost the numbers once the upgraded platforms come to the end of their life cycles.
These inductions will be spread over a number of years which will help spread out the funding, as has been alluded to by the CDS.

Are there plans for buying more AWACS and mid-air refuellers, better weaponry for Su-30 and better air defence capability, with reports of S400 delivery being delayed?

We have plans in place for additional AWACS, both through the acquisition and development routes. We are also looking at various possibilities to enhance our refuelling capability, and these should be formalised soon. The Su-30 upgrade is on our priority list. The S400 is not delayed as has been reported, but the programme delivery schedule is being optimised in coordination with the Russian side to enable us to operationalise the weapon system quicker.

How prepared is IAF for the challenges on the northern borders? Any special plans in the in the offing?

The IAF, as does any armed force, continues to monitor threats and challenges across the geographical and strategic space that we operate in. With specific reference to our northern borders we are aware that matching numbers is a difficult proposition but we are adequately prepared. We are focussing on hi-tech weapons, force enablers along with emphasis on operational training.

Integrated theatre commands are in news, with CDS having it in charter, while IAF has long held that the whole of India is one theatre. How will this be resolved?

There is no doubt that our current setup, while time-tested, is old, and there is room for improvement. However, as the CDS has brought out, we need to guard against blindly following models adopted by different countries in a ‘change for change’s sake approach’. We need to clearly understand our unique situation, our resources, and develop solutions which fit our needs and requirements.

There is a clear case to enhance jointness at the operational level. Several studies are underway to resolve the practical issues of how this is to translate into deliverable and achievable actions on the ground. Our air power resources are highly inadequate to permit fragmentation into smaller theatres.

We are studying methods to create joint structures and yet retain the ability to bring to bear the maximum possible firepower from air at the desired point of delivery across our entire national AOR (Area of Responsibility) in the shortest possible time.

[chetonzz]

i still remember the day last year- the dirty forum that side was in disbelief...

first they thought that balakot in news was not the balakot deep inside IB, but some village/sector very near to LOC called Balkot or something like that...
they were finding comfort in that

soon when things were getting clear...one of them posted.. "...PAF ne naak katwa li..." and things like that...

[fanne]

I don't think AMAARAMS are bad missiles, they are in fact very good. All I was saying that AMARAAMs have only 10 kills in last 30-40 years and max range was 6 (or 10 miles). Mainly used by US against Serbia, IQ, Libya ETC. I think range may have been dedicated more by ROE, US had full control of the sky, they wanted visual confirmation before releasing AMARAM (perhaps).
I think all that 90 KM range is bunkum. More practical ranges are 30-40 Km (or even less) and then you can also use EW of chaffe flares and extreme maneuvering to fool it. I think, between a plane and BVR missile, plane has humongous advantage, unless the AAM is sent on an unsuspecting plane which is at the right place and right time doing the right thing (flying straight) in right environment (no friendlies or other planes nearby, thus confusing the AAM).
On our side, we need more AAMs, more planes on frontline in ORP in very hardened pen (in Srinagar and Avantipur it has to be Mig 21/LCA owing to small Pens), SAMs (more of it, perhaps the one that reaches out 10-50 km inside TSP, the radar itself at little depth, but networked missile forward). S-400 will be some of it, but Akash /NG etc can, or a purpose built version of it, where CAR can be 100 km behind, but missile battery is only 5 KM behind the border well concealed.

[Aditya_V]

Look at the mirpur video, you can see Wing Commander's Abhinandan plane coming down and in between 15-22 secs his wingman turns North Eastwards engages afterburners and leaves, at around 1:15 to 1:20 you can see that another aircraft approaches from West South Westerly direction and fires a missile and then the launching aircraft slowing down. 1 minute afterburner with Mig 21 and F16 approaching with Afturners would have been ~20km in tail chase scenario which The Amraam could not make up.This was the most probably recovered from Reasi district J&K and shown by IAF to the media as the directions make sense and based on IAF media briefing the Su 30s were not in this area.

[Aditya_V]

Another very good article out today. Very good read

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/how-ba ... 318503.cms

Look at the former Air Marshal clearly saying PAF had the advantage of first shot with Amraam. It was the one mistake we did that day. Seeing the strike package size we should have asked the Pilots of changed ROE and asked them to get ready to get optimum positions to fire BVRs at the incoming bogies. Then again Hindsight is very good and this decesion should have been taken by chain of command with 1 or 2 minutes. Highly unrealistic given there was no areil combat since 1971.

[naird]

https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... e-6286787/

Full text--->

One year after the Balakot strike and subsequent air operations, how do you look back at the events from February 2019 till now?

The Balakot airstrike redefined the use of air power towards meeting the national objective and has changed the paradigm of sub-conventional action and response in the subcontinent. The event itself, and the subsequent air operations on February 27, 2019, have remained in public attention with the battle of narratives spreading out to the masses over all forms of media. But the fact remains that the Balakot airstrikes were the most significant air action by the IAF in over four decades, when our fighters penetrated deep into Pakistan airspace, executed a precise attack on the terror camp and returned home unchallenged.
Over the last year, we have continued to focus on our operational training and readiness, induction of enhanced BVR (Beyond Visual Range) missiles, stand off weapon capability and upgradation of secure communications. We have looked closely at our modernisation and acquisition plans for prioritisation in line with the changing threat scenario.

Something tells me that ASTRA has been inducted in secrecy ! We have heard news about R27 - i think thats just a cover story.

[naird]

New Data point !

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/air-chi ... ow-2186264

It's not that the Indian Air Force went into the mission on February 26, 2019 without planning to release imagery of the attack. That part of the plan went awry primarily because the Air Force's Mirage 2000 fighters were unable to launch six Crystal Maze missiles which were meant to provide a video feed of the attack as they homed in on their targets. None of the Crystal Maze missiles could get a target lock, possibly because of the presence of a low cloud base that day. As a result, the only weapons which were fired were the Spice 2000s which do not provide a return video-feed and are designed to penetrate structures such as buildings to take out 'soft targets' such as terrorists inside without necessarily bringing down the structure itself.

Most of us thought that - Six PGM were supposed to be fired ! 5 was supposed to be SPICE and 1 was supposed to be Cristal Maze. Seems like it was Six plux Six = 12 PGM's were supposed to be fired. What a bad time for Murphy's law to strike !

None of the six cristal maze could be launched ! Big lessons learnt !

By the way - i always thought SPICE PGM itself has video recording capability - have seen israeli videos touting the same. So wonder why our SPICE pgm doesnt have one !

[Rakesh]

Didnt whether to post this here or in Mig 21 shoots F-16 since Balakot thread is locked

When did that happen?

[abhik]

How do you get "target lock" for a standoff weapon with terminal guidance?

[Indranil]

This is not new! The Crystal Maze was not launched because target lock was not achieved due to inclement weather. This has been known for a few months now. ew-ACM Dhanoa said this in a previous interview. There are two regrets that he has. One is that he does not have video of the attack, thanks to not being able to launch the Crystal Maze. And 2) they did not use a warhead that demolishes the structures.

[nam]

I wish we had our satellite takes some high def images of the general area of F16 crash. Run it through image processing software to notice difference like burnt trees or burnt marks of the crash.

Feb 27 was a bright day in the PoK region. We could have got some good images.

[vishvak]

How do you get "target lock" for a standoff weapon with terminal guidance?

From above mentioned quote

These bombs have a camera in the nose which has a feeding card placed like a chip inside the bomb, which has the details of the target, the route and the point of launch, all programmed into it.

soon when things were getting clear...one of them posted.. "...PAF ne naak katwa li..." and things like that...

Things like these make a bigger mess than intended .. the aim mainly was balakot strike to obliterate terrorists which was the main message required then too. Generics, like amriki missiles are better, prolly confuse more. Is more confusion, or more information also for that matter, needed is the moot question.

[Aditya_V]

That some of the strike information with a pinch of salt, IAF is still not talking about what was hit in Muzaffrabad and Chakoti. Obviously some of those 12 launched something there, cloud cover would have been uniform across the whole area.

Anyways 1 year has passed now