India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 Sep 2020 23:41

amar_p wrote:Despite all the news about Indian mobilisation since months, whatever OSINT images we see floating around marking our positions against Chinese positions, Indian positions seem much fewer in number. The buildup of Indian tents, camps, temp infra, vehicles etc also seem far fewer than Chinese. This was especially notable in Galwan & Finger region of Pangang Tso.

Is this because Chinese positions are on lower, flatter ground, and Indian positions in higher, rugged terrain? We are not over mobilising just to show off? We believe too much in 1 defender for 10 aggressors theory? We can't mobilise more due to lack of resources? Old habits - IA asserts ownership by patrolling and PLA by building camps?

Perhaps its none of these, but I get 2 nagging worries:
1. If PLA indeed deploys strong troops that are ready to fight to death at some point, IA, lulled by easy victories will get badly surprised
2. If we are to dig in for winter, we seem to be woefully underprepared compared to PLA, even accounting for their creature comforts.

Perhaps I'm wrong, the OSINT is wrong, I hope both are wrong.

But I can't shake this feeling that we might be getting lured into complacency by PLA even if it costs them lives and some terrain at the moment.

We need to be very vigilant while being defensive or offensive. This is just foreplay starting.

If you see google earth images carefully there is no road that connects both sides of Finger 4, Indians were going to the other side occasionally by going over the ridge at some point (as i read in some article) So PLA occupied as much possible on the ridge and were keeping watch on the IA & also IA knew PLA cannot cross F4 with out coming down from the ridge, once down would have problem of logistics since no road. So IA maintained only token presence as long as talks were being held and now deploying in greater numbers as talks are going nowhere

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 02 Sep 2020 23:41

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1301074531625218048

India has urged China to "discipline and control" its frontline troops. For once, India's Ministry of External Affairs is speaking in a manner that the Chinese understand at a visceral level. The MEA seems to be publicly displaying the cultural intelligence it has on China.

Reason why I feel Nitin Gokhale needs to read the Indian statement "we did not cross our perception of the LAC" the Chinese way.

We ARE on the Black top ... there is no other way to control the Black top.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 Sep 2020 23:48

Nitin Gokhale might be holding things that should not be in public

We are not on the Black top could also mean IA is not
Tibetans are chinese as per china so its Chinese are holding black top

abhishekm · Post by **abhishekm** » 02 Sep 2020 23:52

pankajs wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1301074531625218048
India has urged China to "discipline and control" its frontline troops. For once, India's Ministry of External Affairs is speaking in a manner that the Chinese understand at a visceral level. The MEA seems to be publicly displaying the cultural intelligence it has on China.

This is beautiful. Remember how after the Galwan incident Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi asked India to control its troops and discipline those involved? Now we are copy pasting this statement back to them.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Sep 2020 23:57

According to a Defense World report, our 7Vikas SFF Tibetan martyr was "shot in the neck" by the Chinks,when we beat back around 500 of them while retaining the ridge.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 03 Sep 2020 00:03

Kakarat wrote: If you see google earth images carefully there is no road that connects both sides of Finger 4, Indians were going to the other side occasionally by going over the ridge at some point (as i read in some article) So PLA occupied as much possible on the ridge and were keeping watch on the IA & also IA knew PLA cannot cross F4 with out coming down from the ridge, once down would have problem of logistics since no road. So IA maintained only token presence as long as talks were being held and now deploying in greater numbers as talks are going nowhere

s

There is a narrow ledge on Finger 4 where one can go only in single file from the Indian side to a small sandy patch at lake level on the Chinese side. Going up the ridge is/was not inevitable. IA could have occupied the ridge if we wanted to.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Sep 2020 00:04

https://twitter.com/sidhant/status/1301089524265570305

We oppose any country, of course that includes India, to provide any facilitation or venue to forces advocating Tibet independence: China Frgn Min on Tibetans being part of Indian Troops

As to the relationship between Tibetans in-exile and in Indian troops, I’m also very curious. If you could get more information with your report, I would appreciate that: China Mofa

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 03 Sep 2020 00:11

Philip wrote:According to a Defense World report, our 7Vikas SFF Tibetan martyr was "shot in the neck" by the Chinks,when we beat back around 500 of them while retaining the ridge.

Share link pls

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Sep 2020 00:14

As to the relationship between Tibetans in-exile and in Indian troops, I’m also very curious. If you could get more information with your report, I would appreciate that: China Mofa

Tells you how the CCP has controlled information flow. I doubt this lady or new gen knows about Tibet's insurgency or Tibetian units in IA(which is public info), who have been knocking off PLA soldiers for years..

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 Sep 2020 00:17

The wikipedia page on SFF has this blurb:

In 1975 a new rule pertaining to the SFF was issued, this prohibited the SFF from being deployed to within 10 km of the Indo-Chinese border unless under explicit instructions. This came about after several incidents in which SFF was found to be conducting unsanctioned cross-border raids and intelligence operations.

I guess that rule somehow got lost in a file somewhere.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 03 Sep 2020 00:21

https://theprint.in/defence/indian-army ... so/494211/

Indian Army ‘redeploys’ troops, reaches heights facing Finger 4 in Pangong Tso
The move by India, both in Southern and Northern banks of the Pangong Lake, comes after talks with China reached a stalemate with PLA refusing to budge from its positions.

Whatever that means

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 03 Sep 2020 00:21

What about beyond 10km, on either side

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 Sep 2020 00:23

It's fine to keep them within 10km of the border...

...once the border is decided. Right now there is only a LAC and a Sunny Deol movie.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Sep 2020 00:24

Importance of controlling Black Top and the northern ridge ...

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/13 ... 6135990272

Chinese positions, supply lines, bases now fully within India's line of sight. Smallest movement visible & quickly actionable with heavy damage. A detailed look at this & 4 other reasons why China is so angry about India's Aug 29 actions south of Pangong. 5pm.

Also, occupation of Black top breaks the link between the Pangong tso and Spanggur tso sub-sectors by sitting on top of the connecting pass.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Sep 2020 00:27

williams wrote:It is inside Indian claim line:

No need to dhoti shiver. There is enough confirmation.

Saar which map service are you using?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 03 Sep 2020 00:27

So does this mean that the IA or Tibetan freedom fighters control the eastern Spanggur Tso Lake at 33.5658006, 78.7909800?

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Sep 2020 00:29

A panelist in the tv show, mentioned that one of the reason SFF was put on a leash, was that the boys went in to China proper..

It would be dumb to believe that IA/RAW would make an asset like SFF sit on it's back side. With 3400 KM open border, being Tibetan, they are perfect for humint and deep penetration in to Tibet.

I am pretty sure, recruits must be having graduation task of visiting Lhasa/a Tibetan city without passport..

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Sep 2020 00:29

Mort Walker wrote:So does this mean that the IA or Tibetan freedom fighters control the eastern Spanggur Tso Lake at 33.5658006, 78.7909800?

No ...

We control the northern ridge and the main heights that can be used to target the Chinese base/camp/infra in the area.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 03 Sep 2020 00:32

^^^OK. That means IA is on the LAC.

ChanakyaM · Post by **ChanakyaM** » 03 Sep 2020 00:33

Larry Walker wrote:By painting a picture of intrusion, Chinese have set themselves up for a fight. They have to show victory now. So straight option is to fight India and push it back in the intrusion area. But even if they don't fight there but occupy some other sector - they will still need to show victory and hence they will claim they have intruded into Indian territory. If they do this - do we think India has the option to wait it out for the winter or counterattack?? By calling it an intrusion into its sovereign territory - Chinese have set the stage for war - one way or the other.

Haven't they done exactly the same thing in Galwan? If their intention is to attack us in and around kalatop or elsewhere , its a valid option to go after them in galwan or use the newly captured area to hit their positions around that area and capture them too?

madhu · Post by **madhu** » 03 Sep 2020 00:39

So as on today the position

So, I tried to paint a rough ground picture of the region around the LAC on a topographical map.

IA has taken a lot of pre-emptive actions and occupied multiple peaks (accross Indian perception of LAC), surrounding the Chinese posts and tank positions, acting as a direct threat.

https://twitter.com/AssaultArmoured/sta ... 58086?s=20

williams · Post by **williams** » 03 Sep 2020 00:50

darshan wrote:Hopefully, chinese will order pakis to march forward to be slaughtered before November.

Pakis are not going to follow unless Chins go full kinetic first. Hope IA has gamed it if it happens

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 03 Sep 2020 00:55

Philip wrote:According to a Defense World report, our 7Vikas SFF Tibetan martyr was "shot in the neck" by the Chinks,when we beat back around 500 of them while retaining the ridge

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehin ... 7.ece/amp/

An Army source confirmed that a soldier from the secretive Special Frontier Force (SFF) was killed in an accidental mine explosion while patrolling in the area on August 30.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Sep 2020 00:59

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 4041828352

Pangong Tso: Tactical re-adjustment by Indian Army troops near F4 has exposed flanks of Chinese units in North bank of Pangong, just like previous ops in Southern bank (BT/HT & RL) exposed Chinese flanks in Moldo.

In addition, the Chinese sniper threat is also being tackled with thanks to this 're-adjustments'.

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Sep 2020 01:12

I just realized the first public reaction to our capturing of heights was by PLA WTC. It was not by Bejing.

I feel this was the act by PLA to force Bejing's hand. If PLA didn't want escalation, it would not have made the news public so quickly..

PLA could be itching for a "rapid localised victory", while Bejing doesn't want to push the apple cart over the clif..

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 03 Sep 2020 01:19

Just checked the latest (1st-Sep) images from Sentinel- they are low resolution so you not much can be made out - but the PLA "pink" tents/nets stick out. One place with visible recent changes is their camp nearest to Moldo - older high resolution images indicated these were parked (armoured?) vehicles. In the latest images some of these are no longer there, indicating they are active - which ties in with reports of IA and PLA tanks with in range of each other.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 03 Sep 2020 01:25

Suraj wrote:It's fine to keep them within 10km of the border...
...once the border is decided. Right now there is only a LAC and a Sunny Deol movie.

Two things Sirji: The border is at Aksai Chin. And the only Sunny that the Lone Wolfs recognize is Sunny Leone! Hand her over if you want piece.
Gautam

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 03 Sep 2020 01:27

williams wrote:
darshan wrote:Hopefully, chinese will order pakis to march forward to be slaughtered before November.
Pakis are not going to follow unless Chins go full kinetic first. Hope IA has gamed it if it happens

Also, if Pakistan does try to go kinetic in aid of China, they'll have much bigger international problems, and massive pressure from US and their middle eastern allies. The geopolitical game here also extends to Chinese oil and geopolitical plays in Iran and Central Asia, in a direct threat to the Middle East. Pakistan going kinetic will essentially be them deciding to cut ties with the west and jump on the PRC ship completely.

What they could do without tipping that scale is:

1. Push massive numbers of terrorists and very likely, covert forces (spec ops, ISI, etc) into J&K to destabilise military targets (rather than operations in largely civilian areas, which is the current missive). Potentially, attacks on barracks, air fields, and road infra north of Srinagar

2. Artillery fire all along the LAC, like during '99.

3. Major military exercises along and close to the IB, a la Brasstacks, to pull our forces away from the LAC and force them into matching deployments. With the closure of the passes, we are forced to retain sufficient strategic reserves in the plains.

williams · Post by **williams** » 03 Sep 2020 01:29

pankajs wrote:
williams wrote:It is inside Indian claim line:

No need to dhoti shiver. There is enough confirmation.
Saar which map service are you using?

These are old US army maps, I download from a posting in BRF a few months back. You can download older edition (pre-1962) here:

http://legacy.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/india/

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Sep 2020 01:31

williams wrote:
pankajs wrote:Saar which map service are you using?
These are old US army maps, I download from a posting in BRF a few months back. You can download older edition (pre-1962) here:

http://legacy.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/india/

Thanks!

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 03 Sep 2020 01:36

madhu wrote:
So as on today the position

So, I tried to paint a rough ground picture of the region around the LAC on a topographical map.

IA has taken a lot of pre-emptive actions and occupied multiple peaks (accross Indian perception of LAC), surrounding the Chinese posts and tank positions, acting as a direct threat.
https://twitter.com/AssaultArmoured/sta ... 58086?s=20

Thank you! This makes it much more clear. Fast moving events and hard to follow up. If you look closely at the map, you'll see elevations all above 5,000 meters! That is tough going and even more rough with rain and snow.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Sep 2020 01:57

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 9782019072

Even as India and China brigade commanders level talks are on at Chushul, a recap of events since Saturday night/early Sunday reveals that the shoe is on the other foot now simply because China has been presented a fait accompli much in the same manner as it had tried since May
Indian troops in large numbers (withholding exact size of the force for now) are now sitting atop a ridge line that extends from south of Pangong Tso to Spanggur Tso going through Chushul-Rezang La and extending upto Richin (Requin) La overlooking a crucial Chinese camp at Moldo
Indiian troops raced to the top of hill features like Magar Hill, Gurung Hill and Richin La when it noticed Chinese movement on Saturday night before the PLA troops could climb. Now, the Chinese are seeking restoration of status quo ante! These heights were unoccupied since 1962.
The PLA can still attempt to dislodge Indian troops from the ridge line (which will mean a bloody skirmish) or do another ingress/intrusion into unheld areas. Either way, the ball is in China's court. Now the outcome of the ongoing meeting is awaited

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 Sep 2020 02:23

Even Nitin Gokhale is aligned with statements from others now. Very interesting.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 03 Sep 2020 02:54

Indiatvnews reports we are strong on F4 and F5(not sure what it means) and babaji says "almost done" wonder how much the PLA/PRC lost.

https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/ ... ion-646753

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Sep 2020 03:03

Word's spreading on us using Tibetan units to kick PLA and capture the hills.. .

Overwhelming support in the comment section..

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 03 Sep 2020 03:11

BTW, would love to have pics of the PoWs

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 03 Sep 2020 03:14

suryag wrote:BTW, would love to have pics of the PoWs

It is unlikely because if the conflict heats up, then IA PoWs could be used as propaganda. Better to show pictures and videos of Chinese troops retreating and of the area.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 03 Sep 2020 03:20

Where is the Odisha police when you need them?
I've never been a fan of this anti indigenous development, pro US base bit of confetti. However, there are plenty in the ether, that go gaga over his crazily vascillating statements.

https://twitter.com/Iyervval/status/1301167979283898369

https://twitter.com/Iyervval/status/1301168514267410432

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 03 Sep 2020 03:28

^^^The difference is that the Indian armed forces are alert to the PLA and are in relatively better position materially and politically compared to 1962.

The Chinese have lost all modern conflicts after the Korean War. A Laotian man, some 25 years ago, asked me who in the world loses to China besides India in 1962?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 03 Sep 2020 03:29

To give a better perspective of the Chushul, magar top, gurung top please read the following article on Swarajya dated Nov'2018. Magar hill and Gurung Hill were vacated by us during the 1962 conflict so we shouldnt have a problem per se saying we have them back(of course whole of Aksai Hind is ours). BTW, looking at the pictures in the Swarajyamag link sinks my heart my Army had to fight in such poor clothes

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/when-in ... inese-army

Once the spangur gap/Magar/Gurung hill are secured we can reactivate Chushul airstrip(might be the most vulnerable airstrip though.

https://www.deccanherald.com/content/17 ... ushul.html - kya falt** Government we had