Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Feb 2021 07:23

India may take a decade to develop fighter jet engine: BN Kalyani, Bharat Forge
https://www.livemint.com/news/india/ind ... 66599.html
05 Feb 2021

To make a fighter engine, you need a consortium of industry partners to participate in this, as it involves a lot of capital, it involves a lot of talent and it involves multiple technologies, Kalyani said.

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 09 Feb 2021 07:57

What’s with all these flurry of deals with HAL? Is this age old good cop bad cop to eventually deceive us once again.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Feb 2021 08:02

Don't read too much into them. When you read the finer details, it is nothing more than screwdrivergiri of important components. But marketed to the public to display great Transfer of Technology.

The serious players - GTRE and Bharat Forge - know the reality. See the interview above with Kalyani.

Just like with everything else - missiles, fighter aircraft, artillery, armoured vehicles, etc - we will get there. Remember, we were told not to induct Tejas but rather invest in the largest and most successful 4th generation fighter aircraft program (F-16). Had we followed that asinine advice, would Aero India 2021 be this successful? We will get there.

amitverma · Post by **amitverma** » 09 Feb 2021 11:07

Safran did design an engine that is similar to what we need for AMCA.

M88-4 : A 95–105 kN (9,700–10,700 kgf; 21,000–24,000 lbf) thrust variant for heavier single-engine fighter aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snecma_M88

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 12 Feb 2021 00:37

sooraj wrote:https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 59680?s=20 --->

Is this for TEDBF ...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Feb 2021 00:50

No Sir. This will be for the UCAV I believe.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Feb 2021 03:29

amitverma wrote:Safran did design an engine that is similar to what we need for AMCA.

M88-4 : A 95–105 kN (9,700–10,700 kgf; 21,000–24,000 lbf) thrust variant for heavier single-engine fighter aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snecma_M88

As far as I know, they proposed. It would require a larger fan, new LP turbine and AB. Not that easy.

Shekhar Singh · Post by **Shekhar Singh** » 12 Feb 2021 08:22

amitverma wrote:Safran did design an engine that is similar to what we need for AMCA.

M88-4 : A 95–105 kN (9,700–10,700 kgf; 21,000–24,000 lbf) thrust variant for heavier single-engine fighter aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snecma_M88

We should consider this for tedbf and also as an backup for MWF in case of America's sanctions.

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Feb 2021 01:42

https://twitter.com/KUNALBI25146617/sta ... 02851?s=20 --->

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Feb 2021 22:17

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/136 ... 83?s=20--->

110kN Engine for AMCA in collaboration with a friendly foreign partner in the next 7-8 years.
~ Dr. Kota Harinarayana

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Feb 2021 04:08

He mentions, he is unhappy with meager funds provided for engine test facilities in India. Quotes Chinese $3b investments on their engines.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 04 Mar 2021 23:04

After Aero India, I realized that this bomber appears to have 4x Kaveri class engines. Developing such a plane might make for a good test bed for proving the Kaveri line given the built in redundancy provided by having 4 engines on the plane.

m_saini · Post by **m_saini** » 05 Mar 2021 07:44

Would've loved if they gave GTRE/DRDO an actual chance before jumping into a JV with anyone and everyone who is willing. This article says that we spent ~$273 million on Kaveri over 30 years. Now we're talking about a 16 billion JV.

The funding for Kaveri says we never really meant to create an engine on our own. Wish we took our scientists and our ability more seriously.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 05 Mar 2021 08:39

m_saini wrote: The funding for Kaveri says we never really meant to create an engine on our own. Wish we took our scientists and our ability more seriously.

Is there any reason to not conclude that they did take it seriously and that's the reason they decided not to fund it? Over decades, there were many many critical items that were not funded. When critical roads and bridges weren't making cuts to stay funded, no reason to think that kaveri was not getting funded due to lack of confidence.

Over past few decades, was there any leadership that overtly stated that they want to get India to design an engine?

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 05 Mar 2021 08:45

Well we might need to accept that we reached the limits of our capabilities in taking the engine forward regardless of what money we might spend on it domestically.

m_saini · Post by **m_saini** » 05 Mar 2021 09:38

darshan wrote: Is there any reason to not conclude that they did take it seriously and that's the reason they decided not to fund it?

But they did fund it, just not enough. In your example, it'd be like going ahead with the critical roads and bridges and not giving the contractor enough money to finish those roads. Then asking for help from Germany through a multi-billion JV to finish those roads.

I'm just trying to understand our thought process here. Why can't we put our confidence in our own guys, TODAY, and back it up with funding? If they fail then sure, go ask for help. But atleast give yourself an honest chance first.

Also I don't believe we've reached the limit of our capabilities. Do we even own a testbed? How do you not buy your kids any math books and then say "sharmaji ki beti ko dekh...". At $9mil/year, our kid GTRE barely had a chance.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 05 Mar 2021 11:59

m_saini wrote:
darshan wrote: Is there any reason to not conclude that they did take it seriously and that's the reason they decided not to fund it?
But they did fund it, just not enough.

More than one way to look at this "just not enough". I would mention Nambi episode. Somethings can be sabotaged by funding patterns while others may require Nambi plan.

I believe that the successive leaderships were not serious about developing in house strategic capabilities or utilizing them if they managed to be built despite all interferences thrown their way. Indians know of only one leaked MoU with a foreign power.

m_saini · Post by **m_saini** » 05 Mar 2021 13:26

darshan wrote: More than one way to look at this "just not enough". I would mention Nambi episode. Somethings can be sabotaged by funding patterns while others may require Nambi plan.

I believe that the successive leaderships were not serious about developing in house strategic capabilities or utilizing them if they managed to be built despite all interferences thrown their way. Indians know of only one leaked MoU with a foreign power.

This sounds painfully familiar. A bit OT but was just reading about chini semiconductor industry and how they still plan to invest around $165 billion over 5-10 years despite HSMC failing and laying off staff.

I know we're not chinis, don't have that much cash and semiconductors and engines are apples and oranges but really hope we too show similar levels of commitment towards our goals.

srin · Post by **srin** » 05 Mar 2021 13:27

There are only two ways forward: the IGMDP way (invest lot of money and focus for a long period and reap benefits and master the technologies) or the Tejas/Dhruv way (inhouse design and initially expensive foreign inputs and components that progressively gets desi over a period of time). Our engine program is neither (nor is our sub program and increasingly our tank program, but that is for a different thread). The results are there to see.

We need to spend lot of money, but somehow we haven't been able to. There is no will at the leadership level of MoD (RM or Services or even DRDO) to do an IGMDP or AEW program over engines. We should have had turbofans, turboshafts, marine turbines - all tested along with flying testbed infra as an integrated program.
Hasn't happened. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I don't know the issue with Kaveri - funding, test infrastructure, test beds - come to my mind. But the outcome is still that it isn't ready to fly. I also don't see that the deep ToT or whatever they call - hasn't really worked, whether it is for Sukhois or for Jags. And trying to master and indigeniously develop all aspects of the engine clearly hasn't worked. It is clearly unobtainium.

So, we need to bite the bullet and go for the Tejas/Dhruv way. Not the most ideal, but we don't have a choice.
Go for external partnerships, sink a lot of money atleast now. It will definitely be more expensive than doing things completely desi, but atleast there will be forward movement. Stop penny pinching over how expensive it is. It is going to be expensive because it is the nature of engine tech and secondly, we didn't do a good job doing it on our own.
So, go for external partnerships - not just one, go for many. Negotiate with RR and try to get as much tech they can possibly give. Get working engines with majorly desi components. Call it Kaveri Mk 2. And put it on a plane, get a few thousand hours of inflight testing. And, budget for a flying testbed as part of the overall program.
Also, Negotiate with Snecma and try to get as much as they can give. Call it Kaveri Mk 2B or whatever. And then gradually have our own.
Have Bharat Forge, HAL and others involved - because they have some expertise and when you create a pool of competence over a period of time, suddenly magic happens.

Shekhar Singh · Post by **Shekhar Singh** » 25 Mar 2021 12:24

https://twitter.com/the_hindu/status/13 ... 02497?s=19 ---> The supply of the first batch was flagged off by chief engineer of Centre for Military Airworthiness & Certification of DRDO APVS Prasad in the presence of MIDHANI chairman and managing director Sanjay Kumar Jha recently.

First consignment of parts for Kaveri engine
https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Hy ... 157072.ece
25 March 2021

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Mar 2021 21:36

https://twitter.com/MidhaniLtd/status/1 ... 57218?s=20 ---> MIDHANI dispatched its 75% indigenous content of the first consignment of high-temperature alloy for the country’s indigenous Kaveri dry engine program powering UNMANNED COMBAT AERIAL VEHICLE (UCAV).

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Mar 2021 00:55

m_saini wrote:
darshan wrote: More than one way to look at this "just not enough". I would mention Nambi episode. Somethings can be sabotaged by funding patterns while others may require Nambi plan.

I believe that the successive leaderships were not serious about developing in house strategic capabilities or utilizing them if they managed to be built despite all interferences thrown their way. Indians know of only one leaked MoU with a foreign power.
This sounds painfully familiar. A bit OT but was just reading about chini semiconductor industry and how they still plan to invest around $165 billion over 5-10 years despite HSMC failing and laying off staff.

I know we're not chinis, don't have that much cash and semiconductors and engines are apples and oranges but really hope we too show similar levels of commitment towards our goals.

at some stage we must understand that goals and perceptions of commitments may not mean or even be the same thing to politicos and scientists.

the hans are much further along the road than we are

so do we invest in weaponizing merely for the sake of weaponizing and go the russki way or invest in social and basic infrastructure and enable upliftment and in the meantime make the best we can of resources that are available until circumstances change and we can invest in other avenues that many here are suggesting.

It's one or the other with the "other" being starved of required resources until social conditions/developmental indices change for the better.

We want world class infrastructure, connectivity, electricity, LPG connections, health care, education, jobs and whatnot including security against the pakis and the hans and the weapons needed to take them on.

Choose one and the other will/has to follow some years down the line.

We just can't do both, not possible with just 2% of the population paying income tax.

yes, we can dream, but for now, we also have to make the best with what we have

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 26 Mar 2021 02:51

chetak wrote: yes, we can dream, but for now, we also have to make the best with what we have

Not in disagreement with what you stated but one can argue that this choice more or less only came about since 2014. For decades no one cared to fund either option. I don't think that anyone can say with a straight face that UPA govts diverted funds away from weapons to fund other activities.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Mar 2021 03:32

darshan wrote:
chetak wrote: yes, we can dream, but for now, we also have to make the best with what we have
Not in disagreement with what you stated but one can argue that this choice more or less only came about since 2014. For decades no one cared to fund either option. I don't think that anyone can say with a straight face that UPA govts diverted funds away from weapons to fund other activities.

the UPA depended on loan maafi only and a little bit on the corrupted PDS and MANREGA where theft was much more than what was delivered to the people.

on weapons, they did not spend much and on what little they spent, they swindled much of that by padding contracts and getting kickbacks.

The NDA is spending more on the people and the results actually visible on the ground, the benefits are reaching the people and making a huge impression on them.

In the middle of all this, the rafales, the ameriki aircraft, weapons for the army, field artillery and BPJs, along with reliable rifles, tejas, and systems for the navy have all been purchased.

what has been purchased are all reliable and often comprise of systems that have been proven and almost all of it has been purchased on straightforward govt to govt contracts, completely eliminating the scourge of the middlemen.

the naval MiG-29Ks are a different story in which all the details have not come out and no one is going to tell it like it is on an open forum. It is also a fait accompli and an unfortunately inherited legacy.

The NDA is spending on infrastructure as well as weapons but the emphasis is obviously a lot more on the infrastructure.

net net, the NDA has actually outspent the UPA on both counts and has certainly managed a much better ROI, in terms of the economy, as well as, the security aspects.

The UPA would have repeatedly kissed han ass, if they had been cornered like the NDA was, both in doklam, as well as, in Ladakh. These NDA guys have the spine whereas the other lot had the money counting machines, along with caste and religious vote banks.

but asking for sustained and huge funding on long gestation MIL projects without enough confidence in the outcome is not going to cut much ice with the present lot of politicos.

these guys are betting on positive outcomes only and not some pie in the sky and a pig in the poke sort of con game that was so successfully and successively run for decades on end.

I think that if some country offered a verifiably credible solution including a complete transfer of technology, with no questions asked and no strings attached and at the same time, as the price for its cooperation, quoted an absurdly high figure for the same, then this govt would surely go out of its way to find the money for it, infrastructure spending notwithstanding.

I also think that after a few years, these sort of high tech projects would see considerable attrition of trained staff with guys leveraging their half baked "expertise" and shifting to lucrative civil sector jobs as well as trying for emigration to greener and more lush pastures.

In the end, you are buggered if you do and buggered if you don't.

amitverma · Post by **amitverma** » 26 Apr 2021 20:06

DRDO Develops Single Crystal Blades For Helicopter Engine Application

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Apr 2021 18:59

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/138 ... 21314?s=20 ---> Cutaway of the Kalyani 120kgf gas turbine engine.

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/138 ... 74624?s=20 ---> Indigenous 120kgf gas turbine engine by the Kalyani Centre for Technology & Innovation (KCTI).

KCTI is also working on 250kgf, 350kgf, and 450kgf Turbojet engines for LRCMs and light helicopter applications.

Shekhar Singh · Post by **Shekhar Singh** » 30 May 2021 08:48

https://youtu.be/Lu3wh5V4fm8

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 May 2021 09:20

Personally I don't find defence decode to be credible.

If 10% of the things he reported were true. Then we would be a super power.

Shekhar Singh · Post by **Shekhar Singh** » 30 May 2021 11:30

Pratyush wrote:Personally I don't find defence decode to be credible.

If 10% of the things he reported were true. Then we would be a super power.

I think this is about GE engine. If GE develops that engine then how we will be a super power sir?

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 30 May 2021 13:34

DRDO develops near-isothermal forging technology for aero-engines

https://www.google.com/amp/s/wap.busine ... 779_1.html

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 02 Jun 2021 19:31

So are they going to redo the Kaveri or will this be solely for a new class of engines with thrusts of 120 KN and above?

Was the 'screech' issue ever solved?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jun 2021 19:33

GTRE will develop a brand new engine in the 120kN class.

hemant_sai · Post by **hemant_sai** » 02 Jun 2021 19:38

@Rakesh,

Was that sarcastic? OR you hope that GTRE will do it? OR it is real info as if GTRE has plans for 120kN class?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jun 2021 20:25

Not being sarcastic at all. My apologies hemant if it came across as that.

Dr VK Saraswat heading the committees for the AMCA program and the turbofan that powers the AMCA.

With the learning challenges gained from Kaveri, it would be GTRE who is ideal to lead this. This turbofan will be an effort by both private and public players in India.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 02 Jun 2021 20:40

Rakesh wrote: <snip>
Dr VK Saraswat heading the committees for the AMCA program and the turbofan that powers the AMCA.

With the learning challenges gained from Kaveri, it would be GTRE who is ideal to lead this. This turbofan will be an effort by both private and public players in India.

Yes, IIRC, there were some reports regarding GTRE started working on the 120KN turbofan etc - and Rolls Royce was to form a JV to support/co-develop it etc. And that there's something like a "national turbofan development complex" (whatever that means

) being built support that development etc.

In fact, I think there's one reporter who, while interviewing AMCA Proj Dir A K Ghosh during AI21, out of sheer desperation, started asking him some questions on this initiative? When Dr Ghosh declined, the reporter actually almost complained to him, that the GTRE folks are refusing to even talk (let alone give an interview).

Not sure why there's so much reticence giving out some basic info on a program of national importance?

I just hope and pray that program is overseen by the PMO directly - otherwise it will be a another Kaveri saga (of oh-so-near yet nothing to show for it) all over again.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 02 Jun 2021 22:04

Rakesh wrote:DDM or real? I am going to go with the former. This is how HAL defines "ToT"

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 55685?s=20 ---> HAL's Koraput Engine Division makes the Su-30MKI's NPO Saturn AL-31FP engine from ground up, including the single crystal blades. The blades are made using investment casting method. Interestingly, HAL prefers to 3D print the single crystal blades used in it own engine designs.
<snip>

Rakeshji, while trawling thru some of the old posts in this thread, I came across this post of yours (may be because of so many images in it

) - where-in I've found this highlighted (in blue) stmt, which I think needs a bit of correcting.

Please note it's not possible to 3D print HPT SCBs.
SCB or DS blade manufacturing requires Investment casting, and if it's of the sophistication levels of 404/414/Kabini etc, then it's quite complex tech in itself (painstakingly and constantly refined and evolved over last 5 odd decades). That by itself is the "crown jewel" that no established engine house will ever part with.

But pls do note, and this where the author of that tweet may have got confused with, that 3D printing plays a huge role in the manufacturing workflow of modern SC (or DS) HPT/LPT blades - and that, Investment casting is just a part of that workflow.
And he may have got confused as HTFE-25 have In718 3D printed cooled blades – but they are equiaxed and not SC (or DS) blades.

Anyway, from a layman pov, Ceramic Core Dies for aerofoil shaped hollow blade/vane castings for aero-engines is an essential part of HPT blade manufacturing workflow/lifecycle, and is actually a pre-step of the Investment Casting phase. And it’s in this part of the workflow, 3D printing was once used extensively.

But even there, DMRLwas soon found that 3D printed Dies were only useful for upto 100-150 high pressure injections and was soon discarded.
They then moved onto a “hybrid” method of initial 3-axis CNC milling and finishing via EDM sinking method, for creating Ceramic Core Dies from P20 Steel (of 40HRC hardness) – but here also the Dies were only limited to ~ 1500 injections, which is fine limited series production setups but not for full fledged production.
So, India went on importing Ceramic Core Dies for Kaveri blades (from Snecma IIRC).
DMRL then moved onto High Hardness Steel (for 60HRC hardness levels) based Ceramic Core Dies manufacturing, and it was multiple years of struggle in achieving it – not sure about the final status, but I think this was eventually mastered.

I know I have oversimplified the above and more detailed reading is there in one of my old posts here – but do note, Die manufacturing for multi-channel cooled hollow SC (or DS) blades is one of the holy grails that needs mastering is an initial step of modern turbofan design and development.

Just wanted to set the record a bit straight ...

Edit: Fixed URL

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 03 Jun 2021 00:05

maitya wrote: In fact, I think there's one reporter who, while interviewing AMCA Proj Dir A K Ghosh during AI21, out of sheer desperation, started asking him some questions on this initiative? When Dr Ghosh declined, the reporter actually almost complained to him, that the GTRE folks are refusing to even talk (let alone give an interview).

Not sure why there's so much reticence giving out some basic info on a program of national importance?

I just hope and pray that program is overseen by the PMO directly - otherwise it will be a another Kaveri saga (of oh-so-near yet nothing to show for it) all over again.

me

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 03 Jun 2021 00:08

High hardness cores were done a few years ago.

hemant_sai · Post by **hemant_sai** » 03 Jun 2021 00:20

Rakesh wrote:...
With the learning challenges gained from Kaveri, it would be GTRE who is ideal to lead this. This turbofan will be an effort by both private and public players in India.

It is good only if we have Indian private players like Kalyani group and L&T involved. I am not very optimistic with those JVs involving foreign OEMs.
But yes, we need to keep trying somehow by whatever means.

Coming back to GTRE, I am surprised how the matters are really reported to DM?
GTRE is bound to report to DRDO head. DRDO head is scientific adviser to DM.
Then how can we blame the babus for putting unrealistic expectations about Kaveri revival using offsets from Rafale?

Who set that expectation and why was that rejected at last mile just because almost 1BN were asked to fix Kaveri?

It may not be fair to criticize for delays and failures. But GTRE/DRDO head must own the accountability for providing right info and feasibility of practical alternatives knowing the tech realities around so called ToT.

On other hand, if DM is relying on Babus to find the solutions with offsets and JVs, despite being advised by DRDO head, then what can we hope?

On side note, why GTRE is not collaborating with HAL on other engine programmes?
e.g. it can explore HTFE-25 based afterburner engine which could produce 40+kN thrust for Jaguar.
AL31 engines can be explored for creating 110kN variant which can be backup plan for AMCA desi engine.

Lastly I hope, even in worst case AMCA program will not derail and IAF will go ahead with available foreign engine even if it means to compromise on ideal thrust requirement.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 03 Jun 2021 01:42

Prasad wrote:High hardness cores were done a few years ago.

Prasad, thanks for confirming.

Betw, IIRC there was another parallel program in DMRL wrt powder metallurgy based HIP processing for Core Die manufacturing - are you aware what happened to it?