Indian Railways Thread

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Singha
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Post by Singha »

great scheme for catching the rail bandits....opens the ATM and out jumps
a ITBP jawan with a sterling.
Laks
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Post by Laks »

Let us see how many people/netas protest against this.
Railways to establish agri-retail chain
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Post by Kartman »

SSridhar wrote:Goldenrock Workshops exports refurbished locos to Mozambique
The GOC has carried out a number of modifications in the locomotives including fitting dual air brake systems, ABB turbo super charger for better fuel efficiency and ergonomically designed driver seat with backrest. :lol:
IR locos don't have seats onlee, what to talk of "ergonomically designed, with backrests"... the idea being to keep the drivers awake by making them stand :P

Here's a (partial) list of changes IR asked ABB to make to the first lot of new 6000 HP locos that were directly imported:
- No airconditioning: to prevent drivers from fighting to get posted on the new ABB locos
- Protective grilles on the windshields: for surviving assorted rail rokos and strikes, etc.
- Protective covers for the copper cabling: to prevent the occasional passerby from, ahem, "helping himself" to some free copper when the loco is stopped at a signal

It happens onlee in Yindia :twisted: :roll: 8)

Dunno if the new ABB locos have seats, "ergonomically designed, with back rests" or otherwise.
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Post by Kartman »

Singha wrote:great scheme for catching the rail bandits....opens the ATM and out jumps
a ITBP jawan with a sterling.
You mean RPF, don't you ? After putting them on static guard duty and neta-protection, the last thing we want is ITBP jawans guarding trains :eek:
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Post by ldev »

Tanaji wrote:I would be interested in your statistics that prove the following:
  • Western Railway in Mumbai sector is unprofitable
  • Central Railway in Mumbai sector is unprofitable
  • BEST (its transport division not electricity nor combined) division is unprofitable
Not addressed to me, but I found this study, interesting because:

1. It is recent i.e. March 2007

2. Covers all three areas.

Public Transport Subsidies and Affordability in Mumbai, India
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Kartman wrote:- Protective covers for the copper cabling: to prevent the occasional passerby from, ahem, "helping himself" to some free copper when the loco is stopped at a signal
It happens onlee in Yindia :twisted: :roll: 8)
My telephone line in Massa land has blinked off twice over the past year due to copper cabling thefts.

The company is now laboriously moving the lines underground.

No need to score own goals only.
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Post by rsingh »

Meanwhile new express trains to Rohtak and Rewari.......Haryana closer to Dili ,like never before. Lalu Ji ki jay ho :)
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Post by Gaurav_S »

Indian Railways to sell perfumed tickets
NEW DELHI: Now train tickets will be a treat for your nose.

The Railway Ministry is in talks some consumer goods companies which are keen to advertise their products like soap, shampoo and perfume on train tickets.

"The modalities are being worked out for dispensing perfumed tickets. To begin with, it may be introduced for monthly tickets and then for other select categories," said a senior railway ministry official.

While Northern Railway alone sells 50 lakh monthly tickets, Western Railway monthly tickets sale are about 30 lakhs.

"There is a technology available to embed the perfume in the ticket. Whenever one touches the ticket, it emits the perfume. The Department of Posts have already launched scented stamps using the same technology," said the official.

"We have an approved policy for advertising on reserved and unreserved tickets. Besides tickets, advertising space is also available on ticket reservation charts as part of the additional revenue generation plan," said the official.

The size of the ticket has been increased from 15 cm to 18 cm to make space for ads. "The aim is to recover the printing cost the cost of the paper on which the ticket is printed.

For companies, it is a major medium for advertisement given the fact that everyday about 1.4 crore passengers travel by Indian Railways, said the official.

According to the guidelines, advertisements should not be socially offensive and should be in keeping with public morality.
Lalu seems to be exploring all the opportunities to raise extra income. :)
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Post by bala »

Time to take care of ConCraze dynasty's electoral outpost cost only 2200 crores..

Railway coach factory for Rae Bareli
Union Minister of State for Railways R. Velu said here on Friday that a passenger coach plant would be set up at Rae Bareli in Uttar Pradesh at a cost of Rs. 2, 200 crore.

The plant would come up in two years and make 1,000 coaches annually, Mr. Velu told journalists after declaring open an air-conditioned waiting lounge, dormitory and the renovated VIP lounge at the railway station here.

The production capacity of the Integral Coach Factory at Perambur in Chennai had been increased. The Railways were not importing locomotives, coaches and wheels, the Minister said, adding that the organisation was manufacturing metro coaches as well.

Answering a question, he said that in the first stage, a dedicated freight corridor had been planned between New Delhi and Mumbai and between Ludhiana and Kolkata.

In the second stage, the corridor had been planned between Goa and Chennai, New Delhi and Chennai, and Kolkata and Chennai. All golden quadrilaterals would eventually be covered by the freight corridor.

Mr. Velu said there was a 16 per cent growth in the freight revenue. A sum of Rs. 496 crore had been earmarked for improving passenger amenities in stations.

The Southern Railway alone had been given Rs. 50 crore on the amenities front, he said, adding additional allotment would be given to the zone.
Modernisation

He said five stations had been identified in each of the 67 railway divisions across the country for modernisation and improving amenities. In Tiruchi Division, passenger amenities works to the tune of Rs. 35 crore were under way.
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Freight Corridor threatens to wind

Keeping it straight
Business Standard / New Delhi October 11, 2007
Try connecting any two points in the country with a railway line that should take the shortest or the most convenient route, and you can rest assured that others in the vicinity will want the line to veer in their direction (though not as close as their backyard). So it should not come as a surprise that the minister for commerce and industry, Kamal Nath, who represents the Chhindwara constituency in central Madhya Pradesh, should want the proposed Delhi-Mumbai high-speed rail freight track to pass through points in Western MP as well.

Past experience has shown that the railways have preferred to divert traffic away from the Konkan railway, and on to lines that they fully own even if that meant taking a longer route, merely because they did not want to lose or share any revenue. It is easy to see how these and other difficulties will crop up when the freight corridor gets going. If there is foresight, these and other such problems should be anticipated now and solutions worked out before work begins, not after money has been sunk and critical choices made.
Ah! The sweet smell of political insanity.
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Post by Vick »

Theo_Fidel wrote:Ah! The sweet smell of political insanity.
Did you expect anything less than politicians lining up to suckle at the multiple teats this sow of a project will have?
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Post by Vipul »

Rlys introduce Smart card in Mumbai.

With the introduction of a new smart card system on the city's suburban railway line, railway authorities are hoping the long queues at stations that lead to many a frayed temper, will be significantly reduced.

As per the scheme which was inaugurated today passengers who buy the smart cards would have to pay a refundable deposit of Rs 50 and purchase a recharge worth between Rs 50 to Rs 500 at specified windows at stations.

These can be used on the machines to purchase tickets for Western or Central Railways suburban line services.

Almost all the 125 automated ticket vending machines (ATVM), have been installed in most of the stations of the Western Railway suburban line presently and are expected to be installed at stations of Central Railways within a few months, General Manager (Western and Central Railways) A K Jhingron said.

As an incentive, passengers get 5 per cent off the value of the purchased refill added to their account free. Additionally, passengers who use the cards can return them once used and after a deduction of Rs 10, the remainder of the refill amount would be refunded back to the passenger.

The previous initiative of the railways, coupon validating machines had failed after most of the machines went defunct and were not repaired, but in the case of the ATVMs a central control monitors the status of each machine to ensure that it is functional.

"All the machines are connected to the central server and if any problems are detected we can promptly send someone to deal with it," Alok Chaturvedi, Chief Manager at Centre for Railway Information Systems, said.
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Post by Laks »

Sure, if backed by Japanese soft loans and carbon credits.
India can afford bullet trains, says Japan
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Post by bala »

Speed is the new mantra for Indian Railways.
After increasing the speed of Bhopal Shatabdi Express between Delhi-Agra to 150km per hour, it is planning the same on Delhi-Kanpur segment for Lucknow Shatabdi Express.

"Preparatory work, including strengthening of tracks, signalling and other related exercise, is going on. Certain areas between Delhi-Kanpur have been identified as sensitive where we have to either erect fence or construct a wall along the lines to ensure the 150km speed at this stretch," said a senior Railway Ministry official.

Railways have constructed walls at some places on Delhi-Agra segment for safety of the train running at high speed.

"It has been decided to increase in phases the speed of other passenger trains including Shatabdi, and express trains connecting major cities. Once major cities are connected with high speed trains, it would be extended to other sectors also," said the official.

The railways had earlier announced its plan to run bullet trains at 250km per hour speed connecting metro cities but it seems the project is not on its priority list considering the high cost involved--an estimated Rs 40,000 crores per corridor.

"The basic aim of enhancing the speed of trains is to reduce the travel time between the cities. While attempts are being made to increase the speed, we are also trying to reduce the number of halts as well.

The railways has shortlisted a few express trains to increase their speed upto 100 km and necessary work is going on for this.
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Post by Katare »

Nice to see that Railway continues to do all the "common-sense" things that passengers and railway employees were complaining for decades. As per my own experience on long journeys by trains, a large portion of travel time is wasted due to primitive signaling and safety protocols. Automation and upgrade of signaling on major routes would yield better average speeds for all the trains than increasing peak speeds to 150K for few trains.

Avg ‘start to end’ speed for trains in India is pathetic for most trains, too many stops has been added due to political pressures and too few road over/under pass cause too many ‘slow-downs’ and stops for trains.

Basically all they needed was ton of capital to fix and upgrade their existing assets but until now they never had it. IMO, If they focus on inglorious tasks of upgrading existing network and improving operational efficiency more than adding new glittering assets like "bullet trains" and "GQ Freight Corridors" in time they'll be able to do both and than some.
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Post by bala »

Railways to lay Dedicated Freight Corridor
In an effort to decongest the existing railway lines, the Railway Ministry has planned to lay Dedicated Freight Corridors (DFC) for goods trains.

"The existing lines have been saturated and there is congestion," Railway Minister Lalu Prasad Yadav said while addressing students at the School of Management Studies of Cochin University of Science and Technology (CUSAT) here. He was speaking on the 'Turnaround in Indian Railways'.

In the first phase, corridors would be developed between Ludhiana-Howrah in the eastern section and between Mumbai and Delhi in western section, he said.

In the second phase, DFC would be laid between Mumbai and Chennai and between Chennai and Howrah.

Railways will also take "farmer-friendly initiatives" by setting up warehousing facilities and 'Krishi Centres' for stocking vegetables, flowers, fruits, paddy and other farm produce in all the 7,500 railway stations in the country.

This would open up more job opportunities, he said.

The Railways also had plans to manufacture aluminium coaches for goods trains which would reduce their weight by four tonnes. The advantage was that about eight tonnes more goods could be carried by them. This would also reduce fuel costs, the minister said.

More factories for manufacturing engines, locomotives, coaches and wheels would be opened in different parts of the country and the stress would be on indigenous production, he said.
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Image



Side Middle Berth picture, Courtesy IRFCA.

Soon to be standard at a cattle car near you.
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Post by bala »

Railways to launch control charting system
Inaccuracies in furnishing arrival and departure timings at the national train inquiry system will soon be a thing of the past as the Indian Railways is all set to go high-tech with the launching of an IT-enabled control charting system (CCS).

Estimated to cost Rs 86 crores, the system will monitor and control the movement of all trains across the country.

Till now the system for announcement and departure of trains was disjointed as the data had to be fed manually, causing a considerable time gap since the information had to be passed from one station to another.

"So many times passengers did not get accurate forecast about the train movement as the system was manually fed," Madhav Pathak, Managing Director, Centre for Railway Information Systems (CRIS) said.

"Now we will be able to track about 10,000 trains including those carrying freight and passengers on screen with the new system becoming operational. This will help us preparing the chart in an effective and flawless way."

Currently a trial run of the new system is being carried out in Madurai and Trichy divisions as a pilot project. "We will start extending the system in phases from December to all zones of the railways," said Pathak.

The software for the system has been jointly developed by CRIS and Wipro.

The control charting system will not only help monitor passenger trains but will also be effectively used for freight and suburban trains.

"One division does not know the movement of trains in other divisions unless conveyed in the prevailing system. But once the system becomes operational across the country, the computer will give faster and accurate forecast on trains," said Pathak.

Besides the charting system, railways are switching over to online business in a big way.

The project will allow placing of tender documents and inviting bids online as well as opening and awarding these bids. "It is already operational in the Northern Railway as a pilot project and we are planning to cover the other zones in phases," said a senior CRIS official.

The Railway Ministry is working out plans to have a full-fledged multi-purpose commercial portal to conduct business transactions online.
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Post by Singha »

the IRCTC website which is always slow in best of times, seems to get
overloaded and deny service when trading opens at 8am. same for
icicidirect.com during trading hours.

I really wonder why they cant invest some of huge profits in building a
really good website like amazon.com ?
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Cos the union danda's won't let them.

Same reason it took so long for a computerized system to roll out.
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Post by RonyKJ »

Recently I had the opportunity to go to New Delhi Railway Station.
I was shocked to see the condition of the station. This should have been the premier railway station of the country, yet it looked like a cattle shed or even worse. This is surprising considering the fact that there are other railway stations in far less prominent cities which are in much better condition. For instance the Trivandrum railway station must rank among the best I have seen. And to think that one has to only look at the Metro rail stations in Delhi to see what a modern railway station should look like. Shame on Delhi.
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Post by Sridhar »

NDLS is scheduled for a major facelift, including different departure and arrival levels (not the platforms, but the concourse), airport-style waiting and retail areas etc. The process for that remodeling of the station has already begun, with the completion due before the 2010 commonwealth games. It will also be integrated with the high-speed airport link that DMRC is constructing.

The problem with IR however, is that they have given up even on regular updates and maintenance on the existing station in the meantime, anticipating that it will be torn down anyway. As a result, what was a dump to begin with is getting to be even more of one.
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Post by Vick »

Sridhar, I think you're being too kind to call NDLS a dump. I would classify it more as an urine soaked rat infested sh!tpit. At least that was my impression of it in 2005, if things have gotten worse from then, I can't even imagine...

They plan on having this new fangled NDLS, designed by Terry Farrell (of Inchon Station fame) ready by CWG and ground hasn't even been broken yet? :rotfl:

Is there even a CG image of what the new design will look like?
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Post by RonyKJ »

Sridhar, thanks for the info. Relieved to hear that this blight will be gone in the near future.

Meanwhile, good progess seems to have been made on the Bandra Worli Sealink. I will post some links in the infrastructure thread.
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Post by Laks »

Freight corridor hits new block
A report to the Railway Board by Dedicated Freight Corridor India Ltd (DFCIL), the special purpose vehicle the railways ministry has created, has said there are far too many physical structures that may have to be either built or removed to lay the lines.

According to the report, laying new lines would require demolishing several railway over-bridges (ROBs) and flyovers and the construction of 3,500-odd new ROBs.

The heights of some of the existing structures may also have to be raised since the ministry plans to run double-stack container trains on these corridors, especially on the Delhi-Mumbai route.

The points raised by DFCIL suggest that the project will take ten years to be completed instead of the targeted five and will suffer a significant cost overrun.
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Post by bala »

Indian Railways will construct 7500 new railway stations
To develop Indian Railways to the top in terms of largest network in the world, Railway Minister Lalu Prasad said Indian railway is constructing 7500 new railway stations across the country.

The Railways had got on an ambitious project to construct over-bridges at all major crossings, told Lalu. The aim of this project is to improve the rail traffic.

44 projects worth over Rs 9,000 crore were being undertaken in North India. He also informed that, he had requested Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Mayawati to provide land to establish a rail coach factory at Raebareli.
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Laks wrote:According to the report, laying new lines would require demolishing several railway over-bridges (ROBs) and flyovers and the construction of 3,500-odd new ROBs.

The heights of some of the existing structures may also have to be raised since the ministry plans to run double-stack container trains on these corridors, especially on the Delhi-Mumbai route.
This is because of IR's stupid mandate that the Freight Corridor should shadow existing rail lines.

To my mind it should stay as far from cities as possible. Run it out in the deserts of Rajasthan for gods sake. Have feeder lines from the industrial centers.

But this would be too logical!
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Post by SBajwa »

BJP(Nitish Kumar) started an excellent project to link Baramulla with rest of the country. What's the status of this project? I have not heard about it in ages. Last time (over 1 year ago) , I heard news about transportation of Railway coaches across jawahar tunnel (through road) so that they can run as an island between Qazigand --- Srinagar --- Baramullah.

Any updates? Or this project has gone down the drain while Lalu is busy connecting Rabri's village to bombay.
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Post by Sridhar »

Sandeep:

Pictures were posted earlier of the rail coaches being transported across the Banihal pass. The entire island section is not fully built - it is expected to be completed by June 2008 and operations will start then. Some shorter sections (of 30 kms length or less) are ready, but they are too short for running operations on a commercial basis. As of now, the coaches that have been transported are being subjected to trial runs and the procedures (including the security procedures specific to the situation in Kashmir) are being fine-tuned.
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Post by Sridhar »

Theo - I don't think there is a mandate to build the new corridors along existing lines. I remember seeing some maps where there is some divergence. However, it makes economic sense to go along railway tracks since the railways own significant amounts of land along existing corridors. Land acquisition will be a big hurdle (and expensive) along new alignments. In an ideal situation, (or if we were China) it makes sense to think afresh. But in our situation, it is fine to mostly build alongside existing corridors, with perhaps bypass lines around major cities/junctions. Especially because the existing corridors are mostly along logical alignments.
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

http://www.indianrailways.gov.in/DFCC/P ... ridors.htm
Western Corridor comprising of 1483 km of a double line diesel track from JNPT to Dadri via Vadodara-Ahmedabad-Palanpur-Phulera-Rewari. In addition a single line connection of 32km long from proposed Pirthala Junction Station (near Asaoti on Delhi-Mathura line) to Tughlakabad is also proposed to be provided. Alignment has been generally kept parallel to existing lines except provision of detour at Diva, Surat, Ankleshwar &, Bharuch, Vadodara, Anand & Ahmedabad, Palanpur, Ajmer, Ladpura, Kishangarh, Phulera, Ringus and Rewari. However, it is entirely on a new alignment from Rewari to Dadri. This new line portion of DFC is designed to cross-existing New Delhi - Mathura line near Asaoti railway station. For providing connection to Tughlakabad ICD, a single line parallel to the existing Delhi-Mathura line is taken from Pirthala junction station (near Asaoti) to Tughlakabad. Moreover, the Western DFC is proposed to join Eastern Corridor at Dadri. Junction Stations between the existing railway system and the Western DFC have been provided at Vasai Road, Kosad/ Gothangam, Makarpura (Vadodara), Amli Road (Sabarmati), Palanpur, Marwar Jn., Phulera, Rewari and Pirthala Road.
The reason for this my sources tell me is that IR is in two minds about the "dedicated" part of the dedicated freight corridor.

By making it run parallel IR can control revenue/royalty streams and financially squeeze the project anytime.
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

SBajwa wrote:BJP(Nitish Kumar) started an excellent project to link Baramulla with rest of the country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_Railway

The first portion to Udhampur was actually sanction by Indra.

The full phase was sanctioned by Jaffer Shariff way back.

Vajpayee gave it national project status.

Nitish, like Laloo, was barely interested.

Current status is documented.
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Post by Sridhar »

Theo:

The description you have posted shows exactly what I had stated - parallel to the lines, with some divergence at some points and bypasses around major cities/junctions. If I were to design the system, I would do exactly the same. I don't see the point of not being parallel just for not being parallel. If it makes logical sense, why shouldn't the lines be parallel to existing lines?

As to the point about IR retaining the capability to choke off the DFC's revenue streams, how does being parallel achieve this any better than if it were not?
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Sridhar wrote:Theo:

The description you have posted shows exactly what I had stated - parallel to the lines, with some divergence at some points and bypasses around major cities/junctions. If I were to design the system, I would do exactly the same. I don't see the point of not being parallel just for not being parallel. If it makes logical sense, why shouldn't the lines be parallel to existing lines?

As to the point about IR retaining the capability to choke off the DFC's revenue streams, how does being parallel achieve this any better than if it were not?
Why?

How can they possibly benefit. See all the existing infrastructure from ROB to overhead lines that will have to be messed with.

A freight corridor will run from node to node continuously. It should not be burdened by IR's existing dilapidated infrastructure.
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Post by krishnan »

The velachery MRTS has been a good success , going by the crowd, also the road has been widened a bit , making it easier for us moto riders
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Post by Rudranathh »

M'lore-B'lore train set to roll
Ronald A Fernandes
Mangalore, Saturday, December 8, 2007

The countdown for the flagging off of the Mangalore - Bangalore train service has begun and the City is gearing up to welcome the national leaders — especially Union Railway Minister, who will be visiting Mangalore for the first time — who are slated to grace the occasion here on Saturday.

Incidentally, the Mangalore railway station too is in its centenary year. The first train was run from here to Madras in the year 1807.

When the metre gauge train service between Mangalore and Bangalore was opened in 1979, it was considered a boon for Mangaloreans. In fact, the picturesque route was the cynosure of all passengers. However, the line was closed for traffic when the Railways decided to convert it into broadgauge in 1996.

According to Sarala Balagopal, CEO, Hassan Mangalore Railway Development Company Limited the advantage of running goods trains for one full year (before the commencement of passenger service) on the route is that the tracks have settled down.

The reservation for the inaugural train was full within two days of the opening of booking. In fact, more than 3,000 people have already booked tickets for the train numbers 6517 (Yeshwantpur-Mangalore) and 6518 (Mangalore-Yeshwantpur).

Meanwhile, a press release has said that the Mangalore-Bangalore train would have one AC 2-tier coach, one AC 3-tier coach, six sleeper class and six general second class coaches and two luggage-cum-brake vans.



Starting bug hits train to Devanahalli
Bangalore:
Saturday, December 8, 2007

When it was thought that everything is set and work on the eagerly-awaited high-speed elevated rail link to Devanahalli international airport would chug off, the State Executive Committee headed by Governor Rameshwar Thakur, on Friday, found itself in two minds on the issue of the starting point.

Whether to have the starting point at BRV Grounds in the heart of the City, as has been proposed by the infrastructure development department, or somewhere else, is the Committee’s dilemma. Hence, when the proposal on high speed rail link came up before the Committee meeting on Friday, it was decided not to take any decision in a hurry.

“The proposal is for having the starting point at BRV Grounds. But the Committee wants the City traffic police to study the proposal and submit a report,â€
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Post by skher »

Theo_Fidel wrote:
SBajwa wrote:BJP(Nitish Kumar) started an excellent project to link Baramulla with rest of the country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_Railway

The first portion to Udhampur was actually sanction by Indra.

The full phase was sanctioned by Jaffer Shariff way back.

Vajpayee gave it national project status.

Nitish, like Laloo, was barely interested.

Current status is documented.
.

If the Kashmir Railway is coming online only in 2011,we should add Leh/Ladakh also.

Railways are needed in Arunachal big time.No Arunachal rails shown in India Rail Network map.
Gangtok-Tawang line should be first priority.

And if we're making them now,might as well make them fast:-Inductrack.
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Post by bala »

22 railway stations to become world-class by 2010
The Railway Ministry’s plans to develop major stations in metros and other prominent cities into world-class facilities have received good response from international bidders. Half-a-dozen of them have shown a keen interest in being part of the redevelopment project.

Hong Kong-based Terry Ferrell has already been appointed architect and technical consultant for the New Delhi station. For the New Delhi station, Terry Ferrell will complete its assignment and submit a master plan by February.

If everything works out as per plans and construction and redevelopment work starts as scheduled, almost two dozen stations will sport a world-class look equipped with modern amenities before the start of the Commonwealth Games scheduled for the second half of 2010, according to a senior Ministry official.

Twentytwo stations will be developed through the public-private partnership (PPP) route. Apart from the metros — New Delhi, Mumbai, Kolkata, and Chennai — the stations which are part of the project are Agra, Ahmedabad, Amritsar, Bangalore, Bhopal, Bhubhaneswar, Chandigarh, Howrah, Jaipur, Lucknow, Mathura, Patna, Pune, Secunderabad, Thiruvananthapuram and Varanasi, besides Anand Vihar and Bijwasan (both Delhi).
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Post by rgsrini »

22 railway stations to become world-class by 2010
Hopefully they will fire all the porters and make carts available in all the stations. In Chennai, porters are notorious for breaking all the carts and hogging it, so ordinary passengers are made to depend on porters.

I am not sure about other train stations. But I do not remember seeing carts available anywhere.
Vipul
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Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

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