Indus Water Treaty

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 12 Nov 2008 17:40

If it is on India's territory, then it makes Bhasha Dam ours. The Pakistanis build it for free for us. In due course, after some geographical reorganization, we can also use it.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 12 Nov 2008 18:14

True, but the problem is Indian engineers will make a far better design while Pakistani madrassah masons cannot be expected to do the same. We should not be left saddled with a dangerous dam which can cause us 'takleef' later on.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 12 Nov 2008 18:20

Meanwhile, TSP to seek compensation from India for Chenab waters

Responding to a calling attention notice in the National Assembly or lower house of parliament, Ashraf said India could construct a run-of-the-river dam on its side {wasn't TSP always claiming before that India had no rights to build BHEP ?} but was also responsible for ensuring that water discharge on the Pakistani side remained at 55,000 cusecs.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 13 Nov 2008 12:10

Government fully aware of the situation arising from Baglihar construction

The government on Wednesday told the National Assembly that it is ‘fully aware’ of the situation arising out of India’s construction of Baglihar Dam, and it has therefore started monitoring the flow of water at Head Marala on a daily basis. {OMG, the kufr SDRE Indians with small peni$es and in dhotis should now be cowering in dark corners of dirty temples praying to their millions of false and lesser Gods}

Ashraf said India could construct dams along rivers, but it was also responsible for ensuring that the water discharge at Head Marala remained 55,000 cusecs. {Not true completely. It is only between June 21 & Aug 31 that India cannot reduce the flow to less than 55000 cusecs by filling up their HEPs, provided the flow was already above that quantum.}

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 Nov 2008 19:12

Not true completely. It is only between June 21 & Aug 31 that India cannot reduce the flow to less than 55000 cusecs by filling up their HEPs, provided the flow was already above that quantum.}

Amazing insights and knowledge, Sridhar-saar...
Please keep enlightening ignorant yindoos cowering in their dark corners with such amazing gyaan...

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 13 Nov 2008 19:53

sum, it is all there in black-and-white in the Indus Water Treaty.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Nov 2008 19:16

Folks, this is what happens when India objects to Diamar-Bhasha dam.

This matter is further complicated by the fact that the international financial institutions would be unable to extend assistance for the project because the location of the dam is in what is considered 'disputed territory'.

More excerpts . . .

The critical question remains: where does the government expect to generate adequate resources to enable it to construct the dam? The Wapda Chairman commented that any firm receiving a 5 billion dollar contract will automatically get credit; economists would no doubt point out that with the world reeling from a credit crisis, the optimism expressed by the Wapda Chairman maybe misplaced at best, but the more important question is where would the government of Pakistan get credit to pay the firm?

The Wapda Chairman indicated that the organisation had received a very encouraging response from China and the Middle East. Details were not forthcoming and one wonders if this 'encouraging' response can be defined the same way as the 'successful' trips by the country's top executives to secure assistance from bilateral sources and failing to get a single penny thus far.

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 Nov 2008 22:02

This matter is further complicated by the fact that the international financial institutions would be unable to extend assistance for the project because the location of the dam is in what is considered 'disputed territory

Has India actually lodged a complaint against this dam? Dont recall any articles about the same...

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Nov 2008 10:12

Pakistan claims India has agreed to compensate for Chenab waters

India will provide Pakistan 200,000 acre-feet water as compensation for the reduced flow of water in the Chenab River, Federal Minister for Water and Power Raja Pervez Ashraf said on Saturday.

According to a private TV channel, Ashraf told reporters as saying Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh had assured Pakistan of providing 200,000 acre-feet water as compensation for the water lost by Pakistan due to India’s construction of Baglihar Dam.

amit · Post by **amit** » 16 Nov 2008 16:20

Sridhar, the link also has this:

The minister said Bhasha Dam would produce over 4,500MW of electricity helping overcome load shedding. He said the dam would compensate for the expenditure incurred on it within seven years. daily times monitor

Is that figure accurate? If so that's hellava big dam, does Pakistan have the wherewithal to build such a hydroelectric project? Will the water flow support such a mega dam?

Also if this report is true - about compensation - then that would be one of the worst decisions taken by MMS in this bhaicharia nonsense (and there's been quite a few) as it would set up a dangerous precedent. The Pakis will claim water shortage every year from now on.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Nov 2008 11:12

Pakistan may lose compensation from India

Pakistan may lose the opportunity of getting compensation from India in the current Rabi season as New Delhi is constantly engaged in delaying tactics to avoid the resolution of the issue of Chenab water stopped at the Baglihar Dam, The News learnt on Monday.

“The water will be of no use in case not available in the ongoing six-month Rabi season and the Indian authorities are attempting to delay the things despite reminders and warnings on the part of Islamabad,” official sources said at the Ministry of Water and Power and the Foreign Office.

There are three channels — the Foreign Office, the Indus Waters Commission and the highest level (president, prime minister) — to take up the issue with the neighbouring country to ensure that more than 200,000 cusecs of water blocked at the Baghliar Dam is restored within the Rabi season — from October 2008 to March 2009.

At present, the Foreign Office is comparatively slow moving and there is no progress since President Asif Ali Zardari announced to write a letter to the Indian prime minister to get back the blocked water.

Neither is the Foreign Office active nor there is any headway to formally write letters on behalf of the president. However, the Pakistani officials of the Indus Waters Commission have formally approached their Indian counterparts, reminding them of the pending issue. But, so far, New Delhi is tight-lipped.

At the same time, neither the Foreign Office nor any other body has planned to move
the World Bank for arbitration or appointment of a neutral expert on the pending issue
as a further delay would ultimately damage the interests of Pakistan.

“We have formally reminded and offered the Indian Indus Waters commissioner to come along with his team in the last week of this month (November) to examine the Marala water inflows as per their demand,” said Pakistani Indus Waters Commissioner Syed Jamaat Ali Shah when contacted.

He said that the Indian commissioner had promised to respond by Tuesday (today) or Wednesday (tomorrow) to give a reply on the formal invitation in the backdrop of the New Delhi talks held between the two sides at the platform of the bilateral commission on October 23-24.

The session was called after President Zardari personally took up the matter with Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in their meeting in New York.

In the session, the Indian side had not only refused to compensate either in the form of commodity or cash but also rejected the data presented by Islamabad and the violation of the Indus Waters Treaty, 1960, which their country had committed.

There was a big gap between the statistics presented by the Pakistani team and the Indian officials. {This is turning out to be the same case of Pakistani calculations on the pondage of BHEP}

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 18 Nov 2008 11:22

amit wrote:Is that figure accurate? If so that's hellava big dam, does Pakistan have the wherewithal to build such a hydroelectric project? Will the water flow support such a mega dam?

amit, the Indus at that point has a huge potential for generating power, as it descends rapidly. More than the size of the dam, it is the head that matters. However, Pakistan does not have engineers, hydrologists etc. to take on this massive dam. The large projects that were built in Pakistan in the late 50s and throughout 60s and 70s as part of the IWT were all entrusted to foreign (Western) companies. Even smaller dams in Pakistan are being built by the Chinese. The advantage the Chinese get is that not only do they design and build but also supply equipment such as turbines, generators etc. Similarly, Pakistan will parcel out various pieces of the Bhasha dam also to foreign contractors. That's why, India's protest will stop many contractors from taking up this project. Already, there are reports today of a piece of contract going China's way. China could be the only country on which Pakistan can rely upon.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Nov 2008 12:22

Intnl. donors pledge funds for Neelum-Jhelum Project

International donors have pledged an initial financial assistance of $328 million for the construction of 969-megawatt Neelum-Jhelum hydroelectric project. The announcement came at a meeting attended by the delegates of Islamic Development Bank, Saudi Fund for Development, Kuwait Fund for Development and Abu Dhabi Fund for Development, a press release said on Wednesday. WAPDA Chairman Shakeel Durrani told participants of the meeting the hydroelectric project was environment-friendly with 26 percent Economic Internal Rate of Return (EIRR). He said the project would help increase hydel power generation by contributing more than five billion cheap electricity units annually to the national grid. He said he expected the project would be completed ahead of schedule.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Nov 2008 17:09

A TSPian's gripe

The alarming reduction in the Indus Basin waters entering Pakistan during 2008 coupled with the criminal interruption of Chenab Main during the flood season of August and September are definite signs of an orchestrated policy by the Indian Authorities. The advice of Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah about Kashmir being the main life sustaining artery of Pakistan has to be fully appreciated.

The Indians clearly understood its strategic value and manipulated the accession of the State of Jammu and Kashmir. Their actions defied common sense and the democratic values they propagate but for them "the ends justified the means." I estimate that it is the intention of the Indians to gradually squeeze at least 3 MAF annually of our surface water flows. We have to be a more perceptive and understand that the water resource is the cause of all our major internal frictions.

The distrust between the provinces over Irrigation waters, pitted brother against brother. The consequential inability of Pakistan to build the critical reservoirs after Tarbela (1974) on the three main western rivers. These became our share of the Indian Basin as a result of the Indus Waters Treaty of 1960. These proposed reservoirs were a critical element of the extended "replacement works" that would have kept the Ravi and Sutluj superficially alive through the "Link Canals" we had inherited as part of the IBIS (Indian Basin Irrigation System). Rivers sustain civilisations not just communities. What a mess we have created due to this atmosphere of distrust. If you look deeper the direct Indian factor again emerges. The Indian organisation International Commission for Irrigation and Drainage established in 1951 has developed an "India First" agenda and through guile and cunning positioned itself in a position of great influence with multilateral institutions and government agencies worldwide. ICID is a dangerous weapon.

The anti-dam lobby became vocal first from the anti-Pakistan lobby of Walibagh, NWFP. Dams do not create floods they control floods. The 1929 Nowshera valley incident cannot be repeated if we have Tarbela. More dams would mean more regulation. Also why should capillary action of 40ft be imagined against all laws of physics. The lowest point of NWFP at 955ft is 40ft higher than design of KBD max crest level. The rise of the Sindh anti-dam lobby in retrospect gets visible after the birth of Bangladesh. It uses the same ingredients that I do not need to repeat here. The Indians put a successful formula to work and we again went to sleep. Ironical since Sindh needs fresh water more desperately than Punjab because Sindh has negligible sweet water aquifers. Three simple facts of hydrology that our Southern brethren do not want to understand. Firstly, that reservoirs need high ground to create storage through the process of "Damming"; and Sindh does not offer such terrain. Secondly, that only large dams can be built on large rivers and it is the need of the gigantic IBIS infrastructure. It is critically water short. By 2000 AD there was less than 1AF of water for every Pakistani. This is a disaster. Thirdly, it is the extra flow of the short flood/monsoon season that will be stored in the proposed KBD and others. This will allow the main rivers to be kept vibrant for the remaining 10 months. Punjab has already conceded max share to Sindh from any new reservoir under the 1991 Water Accord.

Electric Power generation from imported oil is too expensive and unreliable for a viable industrial growth and even sustainability. Tubewell pumping of aquifers is indeed also not fully viable for agricultural growth. Mined water lacks the rich minerals of flowing river waters but is extensively used when there is no alternate resource. It may be appreciated that nearly 40 MAF water is pumped annually in Punjab and NWFP. This is not only expensive water but we are also depleting this resource.

I believe that the 1951 ten page report of Mr David Lilienthal prepared with the blessings of President Truman and conveyed by Mr Eugene Black (President IBRD) to Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan on September 6, 1951 is the most authentic commentary on the inequitable distribution of hydro assets in 1947 by the British Imperial rulers. Its reference to Kashmir in the context of water supply and the potential for Indian mischief makes it an eternal message for the Pakistani nation. It is an unbiased and professional analysis. This report did not recommend the surrender of three Eastern rivers to India. Tragic blunders were committed by the Pakistani governments in the negotiation of the Indus Waters Treaty 1960. Does India now consider this "Treaty" as relevant?

I estimate that the Indian factor; its interference in our Indus Basin flows (directly and indirectly) has already inflicted a loss of over USD one trillion plus on Pakistan's nascent economy. This loss will now grow exponentially because the loss has snowballed into an energy crisis resulting in a catastrophe for our industrial and commercial economy. The Hydel to Thermal ratio has become 30:70, i.e.: completely lopsided. The ratio of 70:30 was declared as the national electric energy goal. Ideally a zero thermal energy policy should be pursued but Indus Basin flows are having extreme variations; some years more than 33 times from minimum to maximum. Therefore an unavoidable element of 30 percent thermal energy was determined after great reflection and analysis.

Having been frustrated in our attempts to develop more hydropower we became suicidal and starting in 1988 accelerating by 1992 and consummating by 1994 produced an IPP policy that was short-sighted, hazardous, unrealistic and therefore unsustainable. It is said that several Indian executives in the IBRD enthusiastically supported Mr Shahid Hassan Khan when he mooted the idea as Energy Adviser to the Ministry of Water and Power.

Let us recall that this IPP policy was based primarily on imported energy. Not to run an industrial estate or a vital defence establishment with imported oil but to light the streets and hamlets of impoverished Pakistan. The popular fuel of choice being RFO/HFO (furnace oil) pegged at its 1994 rate of around Rs 2,750. In 2008, it had touched around Rs 55,000 and the difference is payable by the GoP i.e.: the people of Pakistan. Pakistan imported around 17.5mn tons of Petroleum products and crude oil worth about $11.5bn in the financial year 2007-08. Over 5mn tons was RFO/HFO. The huge current account deficit and load-shedding regime is before us.

I now summary the recommendations:

" Water is the most important endowment for our agrarian economy. The IBIS an asset with replacement value, today, of more than USD 500bn is our prime national asset. We have not been able to optimise and utilise this vital gift. Our irrigated agriculture can be increased from 42mn acres to 63mn acres within 10 years. Triple cropping patterns will emerge when water is plentiful.

Agro based industry would flourish. Let us jointly understand its potential to break the poverty cycle and enrich our coming generations. We may revive the TVA concept which is the basis of WAPDA but handover the Power Distribution/Discos to the provinces as per the 1973 constitution. The IPP thermal private policy of 1994 based on the failed California model maybe rejected as it is unsustainable. It has failed in California and also in Pakistan.
" The Indian factor is all-pervasive. Our nation has been complacent and callous. A strategic commission utilising the best of the civilian and military talent has to be assembled if Pakistan is to optimise its vital national asset and water resource both for its irrigation and energy potential. Let us not forget that a very conservative estimate of our Hydel potential is +40,000MW generating annually over 200bn units (200,000 GWh). This is more than double of Pakistan's electric generation today. Let a commission be formed to counter India's ICID which has become a Frankenstein for weaker nations. The position of the World Bank (IBRD) and others on Diamer Basha Dam project is a direct result of Indian Mechanisation's through ICID. We need to counter this menace. I propose an organisation with the title Commission of Indus Basin Strategic Analysis (CIBSA). The Indus Waters Commissioner should receive data and analysis from this Group. It may also give advise against the undertaking projects such as a 270m high roller compacted concrete dam in a seismic zone. My reference is to Diamer Basha whose design definitely needs a review in the interest of safety. It may be built in tandem with KBD.

" Let us understand that global warning and subsequent glacier retreat is a reality. I estimate that the inflow of Indus, Jhelum and Chenab will increase by about 40 MAF (annually) for the next 30 to 50 years. India will never disclose this and we are receiving reports of tunnelling between Chenab and Ravi. India has launched in 2006 the world's largest single irrigation project estimated to cost over USD 212bn. This River Linking project is clearly predicating the theft of Pakistan's waters flowing through Jammu and Kashmir. CIBSA must help us fully understand and then educate the world about this menacing and dangerous enterprise. India had by 2003 already achieved more than 250 MAF storage representing more than 30 percent of its surface flows.

Conclusion: Pakistan incidentally has now less than 8 percent of storage capability of its 145 MAF annual surface flow. The role of sweet water is central to Pakistan's financial sustainability and survival. It is blessed with five of the seven largest glaciers on the planet. India has to be stopped from its inhuman and illegal intentions; a recipe for genocide of the Pakistani nation and God forbid destruction of its federation. The region could become a nuclear flashpoint due to this inhuman Indian policy. Of course they are using the enslaved people of Jammu and Kashmir as pawns in a deadly game against Pakistan. Our people can offer India good neighbourliness and a common market if it will step back from its intentions and stop further mischief.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 20 Nov 2008 19:56

^^^

I estimate that the Indian factor; its interference in our Indus Basin flows (directly and indirectly) has already inflicted a loss of over USD one trillion plus on Pakistan's nascent economy.

With an estimated GDP of $143B, the $1000B (1 trillion USD), it works out to be 7 times Paki GDP.

Since India == Pakistan,

The loss to India form IWT can be estimated at $7.7 trillion USD (India GDP $1.1T). More over India is a third-world country with more than 800 million people living under dire poverty.

But Pakistanies >>>>>>>>>> (10 times) Indians

I request Pakistan to extend a helping hand to its "south-Asian" brothers by giving up its claims on two western rivers. This will also help alleviate global warning...

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 24 Nov 2008 10:13

India aiming to make Pakistan barren by circa 2014: Pakistan Indus Commissioner

India would make Pakistan barren by 2014 by stopping its water, Indus Water Commissioner Jamaat Ali Shah said on Sunday.

Addressing a seminar at the Lahore Press Club, Shah said that India had constructed dams at various rivers and continued doing so. He said that under the Indus Water Treaty, India was allowed to generate electricity on the flow of the river but could not stop Pakistan’s water. Doing that amounted to violation of the treaty, he added.

Talking about the recent water stoppage issue, Shah said India had claimed it had stopped Pakistan’s water from August 19 to 28. However, according to Pakistan’s estimate, India had stopped its water until September 5, he added. Shah said that Pakistan had told India that it had violated the treaty and demanded that India compensate its neighbour by supplying the amount of water withheld. He added an Indian delegation would visit Pakistan on November 29 to discuss the issue.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 24 Nov 2008 10:28

Indian team to inspect Marala Headworks on 30th Nov.

“I don’t think we have enough time to settle the water blockade imbroglio bilaterally at a technical level. Concurrently, we are mulling asking the foreign office to take the case to the World Bank,” a top Pakistani official of the Indus Waters Commission told The News here on Sunday.

Giving details, Shah said the Indian delegation had a single-point agenda—inspection of the Marala Headworks. “They have no other engagements in Pakistan; they will arrive in Lahore and return after a day-long visit to Marala.”

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 24 Nov 2008 17:40

Question for those who know:

Is it possible legally to just leave the the Indus Water Treaty? To terminate the Indus Water Treaty unilaterally?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Dec 2008 09:38

Indian Commissioner visits Marala

Vinay_D · Post by **Vinay_D** » 01 Dec 2008 23:03

RajeshA wrote:Question for those who know:

Is it possible legally to just leave the the Indus Water Treaty? To terminate the Indus Water Treaty unilaterally?

Should India threaten to suspend the IWT as a response to the Mumbai attack? What is stopping us from doing that?

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 02 Dec 2008 03:05

Vinay_D wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Question for those who know:

Is it possible legally to just leave the the Indus Water Treaty? To terminate the Indus Water Treaty unilaterally?
Should India threaten to suspend the IWT as a response to the Mumbai attack? What is stopping us from doing that?

Before rakshaks talk of suspension or pull out from IWT we need to talk of building resources that will utilize this water that we intend to prevent from flowing to the Pakis otherwise we are asking to flood our homes to make the neighbours yard barren.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 05 Dec 2008 09:42

Pak claims on Chenab unsubstantiated: Indian Indus Commissioner

A high-level Indian team that visited Pakistan to inspect water levels in the Chenab River said Islamabad’s allegations of reduced water flow were ‘unsubstantiated’. The team, led by Indian Indus Water Commissioner G Ranganathan, inspected the water level at Marala barrage and other sites along the Chenab River in Pakistan for three days. The team said it would present a detailed report to the government. “We found Pakistan’s allegations unsubstantiated,” said a team member.

Vivek_A · Post by **Vivek_A** » 13 Dec 2008 06:18

question to the IWT guru SSridhar:

Can India hold back the water during the rabi season and if it can, what's a good time to do it?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 13 Dec 2008 08:26

Vivek_A wrote:Can India hold back the water during the rabi season and if it can, what's a good time to do it?

Vivek_A, the water availability in the Indus system of rivers itself halves during the rabi season. We cannot hold waters back for two reasons. Primarily, India has been scrupulous in following the provisions of the IWT even under grave situations. Secondly, we do not have storage dams across the western rivers; only run-of-the-river hydroelectric projects whose waters cannot be impounded for more than 7 days and we may not also have storage capacities even if we want to.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 13 Dec 2008 18:14

SSridhar wrote:I estimate that the Indian factor; its interference in our Indus Basin flows (directly and indirectly) has already inflicted a loss of over USD one trillion plus on Pakistan's nascent economy.

Evil Yindoo. Don't make fun of our madrassa math. Don't you know Pakistan rated as ‘Rising Star in Maths’?

Now that opinion is according to the porkis. I searched the sciencewatch website and all I could find was This. Note, not a mention of our glorious porkistan.

saip · Post by **saip** » 22 Dec 2008 03:05

Suppose, instead of holding the water back, we give them all the water and then some, will it cause substantial damage to their crops?

jrjrao · Post by **jrjrao** » 27 Dec 2008 03:48

Expect Zaid Porki Hamid and Sheikh "let us nuke India" Rashid Ahmad to have major khujil-e-musharraf on reading about this:

Hydraulic pressure -- Cabinet clears Krishnaganga project

Srinagar, Jan 26: It seems India has opened up one more front to put pressure on Pakistan in the aftermath of Mumbai attacks after using diplomatic pressure and war rhetoric. The government of India has cleared the controversial Kishenganga Hydroelectric Project in the state at a revised higher cost. Pakistan had raised objections over the project, saying it violated the Indus-Water Treaty which guides the flow of rivers to Pakistan from India.

The government cleared the project at a revised cost of 3642 crore.

“‘Pakistan had raised some questions about the project but we are sure it fully complies with the Indus Water Treaty of 1960 between the two countries,” Home Minister P Chidambaram told reporters.

http://www.greaterkashmir.com/
http://dailyexcelsior.com/

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Dec 2008 08:39

The above news item seems to have come from UNI. I don't know why they should use the adjective 'controversial'. There is nothing controversial about the Kishenganga project. It cannot become controversial just because an enemy country says so. The TSPians have characterized every Indian water project as a 'violation of IWT' etc. Salal, Tulbul, Baglihar and now Kishenganga are no exceptions. The neutral expert's verdict in the Baglihar HEP issue has exposed TSP's villainy and perfidy. Indian news report organizations cannot themselves use such terms as 'controversial' etc.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 Dec 2008 09:56

More Info. on the Kishenganga Project

India’s Water Resources Minister Saifuddin Soz said a team of India-Pakistan Indus Commission had verified the agricultural usage across the border in August 2008.

“We verified their agricultural usages. They had claimed that over 0.1 million hectares of land was in agricultural use but the team found just a fraction of maize-growing land there which will not be affected by the diversion of Neelum,” he said. {This is important because the IWT mandates India that its project should be without prejudice to existing agricultural use on the Pakistani side}

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Dec 2008 10:44

India cannot stop water flow to Pakistan

Chairman Pakistan Agricultural Research Council (PARC) Dr Zafar Altaf on Monday said that India could not stop the flow of water to Pakistan.

No body could stop the flow of water and Pakistan would get its due share in water from Indian, he added while chairing a National Roundtable Conference, organised by the Pakistan Water Partnership at a local hotel to discuss Pakistan's water issues in the IWRM (Integrated Water Resources Management) framework on Monday.

During discussion trans-boundary issues and water efficiency plan for the country also came under discussion where the seriousness of situation with India regarding Pakistan's water rights was highlighted and options for appropriate actions were considered.

Yugandhar · Post by **Yugandhar** » 13 Jan 2009 20:03

crossposting

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/KA13Df01.html

Pakistan's hydro project, with an underground power station, will be built at Nauseri, near Muzaffarabad. Pakistan has signed up the help of Chinese companies, namely the CGGC-CMEC Consortium China, to build the project with the aim of beating India to completion and securing priority rights for the river.

Pakistan fears that once India's Kishenganga project is complete it will have a devastating effect on the PAK's own hydro-power plans, the local economy and on the ecology. The Indian project, according to Pakistan, will curb water flow to the Pakistani project by 30%, besides affecting the local flora and fauna due to diversion of water from its original course. Pakistan also alleges that the project will adversely affect 133,209 hectares of agricultural land in the Neelum Valley and the Muzaffarabad district.

India recognizes the stakes involved. Federal Minister of Power Jairam Ramesh, during a recent visit to Kashmir, called the Kishenganga project of geostrategic importance to India.

"This is an issue with geostrategic and foreign policy implications," Ramesh said. The power minister said even he was not competent enough to talk on this sensitive issue.

The dispute peaked on August 20, 2008, when authorities in IAK issued a warning that the entire state would have acute power shortages for the next 48 hours, due to the filling of the Baghlihar dam. Water flow on the river was halted and power produced by a hydroelectric project downstream was almost stopped, causing the outages.

Pakistani monitoring agencies reportedly failed to check on this notification. Their officials pressed the panic button when levels on the Chenab plunged, threatening millions of hectares of standing crops. The river feeds water to 21 major canals and irrigates about 2.8 hectares of arable land in Pakistan.

Pakistan accused India of holding back large amounts of water for filling the 143-meter high, 317-meter wide dam, with a storage capacity of 15 billion cusecs, a standard measure. According to authorities in Pakistan, the Chenab's water flow more than halved to 22,200 cusecs from 55,000 cusecs.

Pakistan says this is a sheer violation of the Indus water treaty, by virtue of which Indian should not stem water flow below 55,000 cusecs. Pakistan insists that India compensate it for the loss of over 0.2 million acre feet (MAF), a measure of large volumes of water.

NHPC owns three power projects in Kashmir, generating a total of 1,560MW of electricity. It is constructing seven more projects with a combined capacity of 2,797MW. Kashmir has a 12% stake in these projects, compared with the 50-50 partnerships formed for such projects in other states. Kashmir on its own has only managed to construct projects generating 750MW, far short of the demand for 2,000MW.

The Indus water treaty has been under strain following the accusation by all the three stakeholders of discriminatory attitudes.

The people of Kashmir are vehemently against this treaty, which according to them has made them a sacrificial goat. Kashmir annually looses 60 billion Indian rupees (US$1.3 billion) on account of the prohibitions of the IWT by virtue of which Kashmir cannot store water for generating electricity or for irrigation purposes.

All hydro-electric projects in IAK are costly and less efficient "run of the river" type, which do not alter the existing flow or water levels.(then what exactly are you crying about?) An estimated 1.37 million hectares of land is also devoid of irrigation facilities in IAK due to restrictions imposed by the water treaty.

Haroon Mirani is a Kashmir-based journalist.

which part of kashmir???? most likely a paki residing in kashmir.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 14 Jan 2009 12:10

ssridhar... say if we reduce water flow to pakis ...and if pakis protest we could ask for "credible evidence" of reduced flow.. and then refuse to accept it as 'credible evidence' ??

Yugandhar · Post by **Yugandhar** » 14 Jan 2009 12:32

manjgu, what the pakis will give shall be call 'information' not 'evidence'. the foriegn office should give payback with the very same pakiness. nothing less..

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 14 Jan 2009 19:30

No guys, when you roll in the mud with pigs, remember you get dirty, but the pigs like it.

There is nothing more infuriating for Pakistan than India consistently having and keeping the upper hand, morally speaking. Nobody looks at them as victims (hence the we are the victims of terrorism too plea), and pretty much every country regards people from this leprous land as pariahs.

Every Pakistani is a terrorist until proven otherwise and every terrorist is a Pakistani until proven otherwise.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 14 Jan 2009 19:51

JE Menon wrote:Every Pakistani is a terrorist until proven otherwise and every terrorist is a Pakistani until proven otherwise.

Wow. Another good one.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 23 Jan 2009 19:31

Hindustan Construction Co. (HCC) gets Rs.2,726-crore contract to build Kishenganga 330-MW hydel Power plant.

Scope of work includes a 37 m high dam, a 23.5-km tunnel and an underground powerhouse,scheduled to complete in 84 months.

Sridharji any info if there is any further development on the Paki Neelum-Jhelum Project beyond signing those contracts with Chinese companies?
It would be interesting to see both sides trying to out do each other as whoever will be the first to commision its project would damage the commercial viability of project of the opposite side.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 24 Jan 2009 20:55

Vipul wrote:Hindustan Construction Co. (HCC) gets Rs.2,726-crore contract to build Kishenganga 330-MW hydel Power plant.

Scope of work includes a 37 m high dam, a 23.5-km tunnel and an underground powerhouse,scheduled to complete in 84 months.

The HCC contract is a wonderful piece of news.

. . . any info if there is any further development on the Paki Neelum-Jhelum Project beyond signing those contracts with Chinese companies?
It would be interesting to see both sides trying to out do each other as whoever will be the first to commision its project would damage the commercial viability of project of the opposite side.

The IWT allows India to store waters on Neelum for power generation and so Pakistan wants to start its project first in order to deny waters to India claiming the principle of “prior appropriation”, per Paragraph 15(iii), Part-3, Annexure-D which states “where a Plant is located on a Tributary of The Jhelum on which Pakistan has any Agricultural use or hydroelectric use, the water released below the Plant may be delivered, if necessary, into another Tributary but only to the extent existing Agricultural Use or hydroelectric use by Pakistan on the former Tributary would not be adversely affected”.

There is *no* existing agricultural use or hydroelectric use downstream of Kishenganga on the TSP side. Proposed projects or wet dreams do not count here. Case closed.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 25 Jan 2009 18:23

Thanks Sridharji.I have no doubts that India would plan projects such that it will not be under any technical violation of the treaty.

I has asked for any info on the actual construction news on the Pakistani side as i was wondering about the commercial viability of these competing projects from your post on Page 4 of this thread.

Union minister of state for power Jairam Ramesh said NHPC will have to work faster on the Kishanganga power project in wake of Islamabad's efforts to complete Neelam-Jhelum project on the other side of the LoC by 2015. However, he admitted that the stand-off between India and Pakistan over the two projects has geo-strategic implications which he is not competent enough to talk about.

Interestingly, both sides believe that water sharing Indus Water Treaty would uphold the genuineness of the project that is completed early. And this particular clause has urged both sides to speed up their projects regardless of the fact that ultimately one of them would be unviable.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Jan 2009 10:58

India planning a slew of projects

India is moving fast to build power plants on River Indus in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK), as part of a possible coercive ‘water diplomacy’ to pressurise Pakistan.

Following the recent ordering of a detailed project report (DPR) on the second phase of the 990-megawatt (MW) Kirthai power project on River Chenab and awarding contracts for the 330MW Kishanganga Dam on River Neelam, India is moving ahead to float tenders for three more power projects on Chenab.

The projects include the 600MW Kiru, the 1,000MW Pakal Dul, and the 520MW Karwa. The total cost estimate for the three projects is around Rs 127.20 billion.

A joint venture company, the Chenab Valley Power Development Corporation, owned by the state-run National Hydroelectric Power Corporation (NHPC) and IHK’s Power Development Corporation (PDC), will oversee the projects, scheduled to be completed within four years. NHPC sources said the actual implementation of the projects would begin in the next 60 days. According to a memorandum of understanding (MoU) signed between India and IHK, the disputed state will receive 13 percent of the produced power free of cost. A PDC spokesman said the MoU was signed on October 10, 2008 and the contracts would be awarded soon to begin construction at the earliest.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Jan 2009 11:10

Vipul wrote:I had asked for any info on the actual construction news on the Pakistani side as i was wondering about the commercial viability of these competing projects from your post on Page 4 of this thread.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no financial closure for the Neelum-Jhelum project on the Pakistani side. The project is over USD 2 Billion and in the financial situation that obtains now, Pakistan will not be able to close it for quite sometime to come. The project has been awarded to a consortium of Chinese companies which are bringing in some cash and friendly Gulf countries had promised some more money but they all didn't add up to much. The severe downgrading by Moody's etc. didn't help the matter because of which the sovereign guarantee by Govt of Pakistan has not much value. Unless there is financial closure, the hard-nosed Chinese consortium will not move ahead. The 2005 earthquake, the abduction and killing of Chinese engineers and the overall security situation don't help the matter either for Pakistan.