Aero India 2009

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 16 Feb 2009 01:25

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... 3.JPG.html

This poster says its C25.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 16 Feb 2009 02:06

rkhanna wrote:
Even the Garuds have tavors now?

Am hoping and praying to bump into some Garuds during the AI visit!!!
........

My question is, why do these guys have elbow and knee pads ? I would imagine a helmet would be more useful that knee and elbow pads ? Or a better weapon ? I've seen the PLA special forces use knee pads as well, I always thought they were going for a 'look'.

Aditya_M · Post by **Aditya_M** » 16 Feb 2009 02:40

Chetak, Vick - most aircraft with podded jet engines *do* have thrust reversers, but only the C-17s produce enough backward thrust for it to taxi backwards at a fair clip. Of course this can be only done when the aircraft is empty, and not carry load.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Feb 2009 05:10

Anyone took a picture of the poster behind the RLV image?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Feb 2009 06:27

Aditya_M wrote:Chetak, Vick - most aircraft with podded jet engines *do* have thrust reversers, but only the C-17s produce enough backward thrust for it to taxi backwards at a fair clip. Of course this can be only done when the aircraft is empty, and not carry load.

I got a great video of the C-17 in 2007 - doing exactly what it did this year and more (visibility was better in 2007 - less haze)

The video is here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quOwa58N ... annel_page

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Feb 2009 06:29

p_saggu wrote:
pandyan wrote:Shivji - thanks for the pictures especially of the BR Stall. Any more pictures of BR members as well as the grand master
Where are the pics? Post a link please

Check the Aero India member's galleries linked from the BharatRakshak main page

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/AeroIndia2009/

You can see the identity of the uploader and his gallery on this page

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Feb 2009 06:40

ooops - wrong thread

msg deleted

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 16 Feb 2009 07:21

Raj Malhotra wrote:Does the last page of this GTRE brouchure shows a 3D-TVC?

GTRE

Nope.ITs a ConDi nozzle

the entire nozzle arrangement is a lot different for TVC.

disha · Post by **disha** » 16 Feb 2009 07:49

Arun_S wrote:
A krish wrote:Yes! But I have got to accept that people at the ISRO stalls where goons! They didn't know anything and were reluctant to answer (i.e if they knew anything) on Indian manned mission. And the posters too had nothing on mass fraction. But I was surprised that the poster mentioned CE20 as Mk-III upper stage while we all believed that it was CE25!
Humm that is interesting, because Russians were developing their second cryo engine (after their first engine that flew atop GSLV) and that was C20 developing IIRC 15 tonne thrust. I do hope that ISRO's cryo engine design for C25 is better then Russian C20.

Can you pls upload that poster on BR?

As for ISRO staff in their stall, only 1 or two know their stuff, others are chaprasiee's on deputation. My experience with them have been mixed. Last time one of the guys there was fully upto speed on Chandrayaan, on its bus and payload mass issues.

Even if Chaprasis are on deputation manning the stalls, I do take umbrage in calling them goons. It shows our own insolence and arrogance. This name calling needs to stop. Admins please note.

[Sometimes I do send "chaprasi's" to my trade shows, keeps my best engineers working and not have to answer insolent, arrogant and good for nothing kids.]

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 16 Feb 2009 07:53

Pics from Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/planetz/co ... 830265238/
Ram Manoj

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dbanik/set ... 754790506/
debarka banik

http://www.flickr.com/photos/fameleaf/s ... 778439023/
fameleaf

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Feb 2009 09:48

Suman Sharma becomes world's first woman to fly Mig-35

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 16 Feb 2009 09:50

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/business/as ... ow-for.htm

Just an hour before the show ended, two tires of an F-16 burst while the fighter jet was landing after a display. No one was hurt but the mishap sparked safety concerns and emergency teams hurriedly towed away the aircraft.

Interesting isnt it, it was covered in a regional daily (eenadu) and in china, but not by any of our elite media.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 16 Feb 2009 10:11

Brando wrote:
rkhanna wrote:Even the Garuds have tavors now?
My question is, why do these guys have elbow and knee pads ? I would imagine a helmet would be more useful that knee and elbow pads ? Or a better weapon ? I've seen the PLA special forces use knee pads as well, I always thought they were going for a 'look'.

I did bump into garuds during the show, and asked them the qn above... the reply was that it was to protect the knees when they jumped from high places.

Anyway, I had a nice (not too long) chat with a garud officer... for such a scary looking job, they sure do speak softly.... had to strain me ears to hear them clear.

Anyway, All those with Tavors are NOT garud... garud do not have tavors JUST YET, but will get a huge upgrade in weapons, comm and gear in a short while - this comes from the officer direct.

The basic pre-induction/commissioning training itself lasts for 3 years!!! And after that, as is obvious, they continue to have training after to hone their skills.

Another interesting thing I noted was the Insas with the optical sights - quite a nice sight to see.

The Black beret is gone now - its maroon, as is obvious in some photos - apparently, the Garuds wanted the maroon beret and the SF distinction, which the black beret didn't provide (we got to admit, black isn't as menacing a color for a beret as maroon or green or even an off-white/wheatish).

The primary role itself, which the offr mentioned with caution is only Counter-terror ops for airfields and assets - he pointed out that their role over there in AI was not for normal security duties but to be a backup - as he pointed out, there were thousands of crores of assets in there, and a terrorist team that was let free for even a few minutes could do a hell of a lot of damage. NSG and Army SF would take time to arrive even if they were just a few clicks away, time which would be precious and allow the pigs to take out a couple of aircraft - that would have been 1 bn gone right there.

In terms of interoperability with Army SF, he did mention (and I noticed) taht they have a lot of camaraderie with the Army SF guys... saw a lot of garuds chatting up with their army pals (including those in Secret Service gear).... the joint ops do work wonders. He said that they could work in Army SF teams like they were native to them. About MARCOS, "No Comments"....

Cheers.

rahuldevnath · Post by **rahuldevnath** » 16 Feb 2009 10:21

I had an opportunity to meet the Garud's Group Leader, Sqn Ldr R%^#. A few of them have been trained in the US. And if i'm not wrong, there are different groups of Garud for different areas, that mean the Raksha Matri's dias has the best of them, period.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Feb 2009 10:38

TOI has a pic of the burst tire F16 today.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 16 Feb 2009 10:57

Some random thoughts on AI-09:

1. YAWN!!! I agree that this time was pretty boring, in terms of the flying displays... the lack of commentary and/or music with them did dampen things a bit... we really missed the IJT and Gripen as well. Well, hopefully, next time.

2. The stalls too lacked the usual fervour - where earlier there were loads of models and even full scale aircraft brought, this time, noting except some data boards and all.... (really missed the full scale LCH model). even major cos didn't have large stalls. Recession seems to have put ppl on caution mode, even the Israelis.

Didn't really like the Russian stalls.... Generally, russians are not very helpful with info, except with customers, but this time was downright rude.... most stalls were confused, and I guess the grouping under Russia wasn't that effective (only my Opinion though).

3. There seems to be a very clear distintion trying to be developed between aeronautics and other areas, which has resulted in almost no land warfare or naval stalls, except some in the smaller halls (and even those were not really that grand)... I guess they are trying to keep the Army and Navy stuff for DEFEXPO, which is indeed kinda sad.

4. Really missed the WLR vehicle at the BEL stall, but the person there mentioned that it was on user trials, so could not make it. The BEL outdoor stall people did seem to be disinterested - the person concerned was never there, even on the biz days, and it was sad to see the Akash neglected without proper boards and all. However, it was indeed nice to see the Thermal camera and IR camera equipped BFSR (1500 now in service).

5. However, the indoor stalls (both BEL and DRDO) were another matter altogether - very nicely done, and was great to see the interest with which the stall-wallahs explained the system to customers and school-children alike. I didn't notice them neglecting the newbies they were responding to just becoz someone big came there, and it was indeed nice to see even teh project heads explaining the info.... I guess the difference was the sun.

I did have the chance to pick peoples brains for long time - spent half an hour at the Dassault and Saab stalls (had to have my answers clarified by 4 people, and it was great that they werent impatient with me even on the biz day - great work Saab!!). Also was great to be able to grill our AEW&C person for almost 45 minutes, on every aspect (most of which is known by now, but I do have some new info, which i'd be happy to answer with questions - keepign out the sensitive aspects of course). Also had a nice chat with an RCI scientist on their RLG development (not very technical), which was enlightening.

6. The Indian exhibitors were immaculately briefed by their superiors on the info that was to be given. Unlike previous times, this time, there were relatively senior hands-on people manning the stalls, and not the peripheral personnel like last time, and they were more than willing to answer questions or direct us to the person concerned (great change from before). More importantly, they knew the info that was to be released and what was not.... many times, I have had them suddenly get suspicious and ask me where I was from, and what I did when my questions went even slightly beyond the press-released info. The handling of sensitive info was immaculate, and I'm sure that any info that I have got taht isn't out is definitely going to come out in less than a month, or is already known to the industry.

7. Food stalls - GOod on business days, terrible on public days - with the organizers not providing enough shade, it was difficult to step into the stalls. Luckily, it was better than the previous editions (i still remember having to trudge a click to get a melted ice cream at twice the cost).... this time, the water and drink stalls were both plenty and affordable.

8. Toilets - Unfortunately, cant say the same for the toilets.... no need to say more!!

9. BRF Stall - It was great to meet the people face-to-face finally... joey, kapil, kersi, krish, doc and simon, k Mehta and all.... was amazing.... Missed shiv-saar though. Would have loved to meet, especially after corresponding so much.

The stall itself got a huge amount of rush, and it was nice to see people thronging for the squadron prints and stickers, and to a lesser extent, the keyrings and books. Manning the stall was fun, although it was a bit scary when we suddenly realized that some guy had picked up Air Mshl Rajkumar's book and conveniently walked away after putting it in his bag.. Thankfully, we retrieved it in a few seconds from the embarassed owner (for 30 seconds at least), who obviously thought that it was for free (Thats the govt employees for you - baap ka ghar)....

10. Security - the 3-tier entry security was good.... However, I was indeed shocked to see that the RFIDs were just showing the access and not the identification, which meant that it couldn't do what the newspapers were touting. ID documents were not checked either (shock again). Even worse, when I accidentally showed the used biz day ticket, the sec-wallah swiped it, and there was no beep at all... nor did they even listen if the beep came. Poor training comes to mind here.

Had a few more experiences which made me a bit concerned about how good the security indeed was, but for obvious reasons, will not mention them. I'm sure they will fix them by the next edition.

11. Ticket price - far too high. Even other international shows have far lower ticket prices. The Singapore Air show was only 8$ (~200 Rs) for the public day all access. Moreover, the planes were placed in the middle of the display area, and puiblic could walk in and around them - it was great to see the inside of A B1b cockpit.

The organizers should seriously consider reducing the prices, but given the number of people who came, I guess they will not.

Just a thought.... it might be cheaper to set up a stall and get the 5 or 6 exhibitor passes to attend all 5 days

.

12. Wimmens - Aah!!! was too busy to notice, and was roundly castigated by Kersiji for that lapse (I think he kept a full day for emm, 'bird-watching'

).... I guess it was pretty stupid of me to actually come to the air show on 14th feb... but if i did have any other option, it would have been bye-bye airshow, hello birdie. Anywho, it was amazing to note that the wimmens at ze stalls were quite knowledgeable and not just eye-candy.

13. Transportation - top class - got to the show in a BMTC bus in half an hr from Shivajinagar on biz days.... perhaps it may be a good idea for the organizers to ban parking inside the airshow, except for those with limited parking passes (the road cant handle it).... instead, allow parking in Manekshaw grounds, the police grounds nearby and probably in the BSF camp area.... provide bus service from there... it wasn't expensive at all.

13. Saw the army chief and it was crazy to see the security around him - 20 or 30 army-wallahs and 5-6 commandos. It was definitely overkill in an area that possessed that amt of security... The other chiefs were much less visible, came in very inconspicuously, with only ADC and 1-2 personal sec offrs. I wonder why the Army tamasha then!!

More thoughts will add later... but will add my report on AI and the Seminar on this thread as a single source.... plz x-post to the relevant thread. Thanks.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 16 Feb 2009 11:00

Birumanand's Flickr set of Aero India photos

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Feb 2009 11:11

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 16 Feb 2009 11:25

Arun_S wrote:
A krish wrote:Yes! But I have got to accept that people at the ISRO stalls where goons! They didn't know anything and were reluctant to answer (i.e if they knew anything) on Indian manned mission. And the posters too had nothing on mass fraction. But I was surprised that the poster mentioned CE20 as Mk-III upper stage while we all believed that it was CE25!
Humm that is interesting, because Russians were developing their second cryo engine (after their first engine that flew atop GSLV) and that was C20 developing IIRC 15 tonne thrust. I do hope that ISRO's cryo engine design for C25 is better then Russian C20.

Can you pls upload that poster on BR?

As for ISRO staff in their stall, only 1 or two know their stuff, others are chaprasiee's on deputation. My experience with them have been mixed. Last time one of the guys there was fully upto speed on Chandrayaan, on its bus and payload mass issues.

Seconding the thoughts of A.Krish.. I made numerous visits to ISRO stall to specifically findout Isp & Thrust of S200, L110, C25.. No use.. They had a very good stall with lot of neat info on the posters.. Everybody says I am not the concerned person.. the VSSC people are not here..

One person takes me to GSLV-MkIII chart and shows me the strap-ons and says they are L110.. and the middle section is S200... I had to tell him it is the other way.. Not the standards generally expected from ISRO.. wish they had the right persons there..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Feb 2009 11:33

the borrowed UAE F16In is the fattest and heaviest F16 ever. no wonder the Tejas
looked small. if you park a original block20 F16, the dimensions would look similar except that F-solah is longer and has a slimmer nose.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 16 Feb 2009 11:37

ravi_ku wrote:http://www.chinapost.com.tw/business/as ... ow-for.htm

Just an hour before the show ended, two tires of an F-16 burst while the fighter jet was landing after a display. No one was hurt but the mishap sparked safety concerns and emergency teams hurriedly towed away the aircraft.
Interesting isnt it, it was covered in a regional daily (eenadu) and in china, but not by any of our elite media.

Air show signs off in style
By Rasheed Kappan,Deccan Herald News Service,Bangalore:

.... . . . . . Close shave for pilots

Bangalore, DHNS: The pilot and co-pilot of a Lockheed Martin F16IN 'Super Viper' of the United States Air Force (USAF) had a providential escape on Sunday, after two of the jet’s tyres burst soon after it landed following a sortie at the Aero India 2009. The pilot Paul Randall had just landed his aircraft when the flight controls in the cockpit detected a tyre burst in the rear tyre on the right of the fighter jet at 2.00 pm.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 16 Feb 2009 11:48

Singha wrote:TOI has a pic of the burst tire F16 today.

What is the TOI caption "Eff Solah Ki Fattt Gayee" ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Feb 2009 11:49

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 16 Feb 2009 11:55

OK.... report on AEW&C

Huge amount of work has gone on and the pace is absolutely amazing... there is a huge amount of updates from teh last time i saw it in IRSI 07.... amazing pace of work... ppl at CABS are obviously not sleeping.

Anyway, the source for the info I'm putting below are the lecture by CABS Dir and AEW head Dr. Christopher, the person at the Embraer stall, and my 45 minute interrogation (after a CLAP and IFF by the other party) of the AEW project scientist at the stall....

1. Podded vs Conformal Array Antenna:

This argument negates most of Prasun's points, and comes straight from the director:

Conformal antenna:
- Large EMI and loss
- Cooling is required... more power reqts and more size also. Also increases maintenance and failure rate.
- Reduced space in fuselage.
- no windows - increased operator fatigue.
- Maintenance and secrecy - maintenance of the aircraft and overhaul will require removal of the Active Antenna Array Units (AAAU) to maintain secrecy, which becomes extremely difficult for a conformal array.

Additionally, a conformal array would require a huge amount of aerodynamic restructuring and reengineering - not a great idea.

The advantage of course is that the load on the airframe is less and the range does increase some more. However,the conformal nature does remove some amount of fuel that can be placed, so there is indeed a tradeoff.

Podded Antenna:

- Loss and EMI is minimal, which means a far better performance.
- Cooling can also be accomplished extremely easily, with ram-air cooling, which reduces the weight penalty.
- More space in the fuselage for equipment and/or operator cabins.
- More space and windows also means taht the operators are less fatigued and stressed, a major factor in their performance.
- Secrecy is also maintained, since it is much easier to remove the AAAUs.

However, the obvious penalty is in terms of airframe strengthening and load, which necessitates additional control surfaces.

Based on all these aspects, the IAF decided to use the Emb-145 and the podded antenna. Note that CABS was not the decider here, and only provided the inputs and consultation for the decision.

The TR modules were initially planned to be procured from a foreign nation (no points for guessing who), but they were denied, so DARE (under Dr. Revankar's gp) developed the indigenous 8-TR TRMM for the primary detector and the 4-cell TRMM for the IFF. These have been patented, and are in fact better than the one we originally wanted. So kudos to indian expertise!!

The Antenna is a kevlar composite cladded, and has been tested. Additionally, bird hit tests of the antenna itself have been carried out, and are successful.

As of now, a 2-cell truncated version of the array (the array will finally contain 10 cells) has been fully ground tested for performance, and some truly amazing things have been noted, which I will come to later.

The flight testing of the antenna will be done by Embraer within a year or two, and they will have the full version ready within a few months (6 max). The aircraft will be ready in a year, and Embraer will start integration.

Now, an amazing aspect that hasn't been noted is that this sensor will also have a limited elevation coverage of 10-17 degrees, which i think does not exist on other present day AEW radars. This will allow the radar beam to continue to point in the same direction even if the aircraft goes into a bank or a turn.

Another point that has come out from the truncated antenna tests have been the azimuthal coverage - the nominal value of 60 deg has been exceeded, and they have obtained full performance upto 75 deg, with no loss of range - thus, the array can definitely be pushed up to 300 deg, if not more. Further coverage will result in a loss of range (unspecified - it was mentioned that this will be known with further tests, but also that the exact range or value wasn't open info).

There will be 5 operators with 7 crew rest seats - operator comfort has obviously played a large role in the design.

I suspect that the system may be named "Jatayu", based on the comments made by the session Chair, who invoked that story to talk about our mythology for eye-in-the-sky (after mentioning how the chinese love to say that they were the first at everything, and use their legends to substantiate those claims).... anyway, Jatayu is a beautiful and evocative name, and I do hope they name it so.

Coming to the info from Embraer

The Platform that has been chosen isn't the R-99A variant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_R-99) of the Emb-145, which is a optimized AEW platform, but the Emb-145 itself. This is apparently because the Indian radar is much bigger and heavier than anything the Brazilians have developed the R-99A for, including their own radar, and due to the larger power requirements.

Thus, the Indian version will be completely optimized, and they will optimize the Emb-145 for our use. This includes the addition of an extra APU to supply the power needed.

The Person at the Emb stall did mention that our AEW would be far higher performance than their own AEW or anything close, but due to the increased load, will have a larger aerodynamic and range penalty (which he didn't specify since tests are still being conducted) than the normal R99. Since the R99A has the Erieye radar which Pak will get (on a turboprop of course), we can be happy that even our own radar will be far better than anything they have.

The AEW stall at AI:

Extremely interesting info obtained... they are using special, high performance cables to connect the TRMMs to the primary radar antenna. The cables are quite expensive and are imported (and patented). however, i will not add any more due to security considerations, just to be on the safer side.

The truncated radar itself is far more complete than 1 year ago, when it was somewhat like an empty shell with TRMMs placed.

When asked why we didn't go in for a 360 array like on the Israeli G550 AEW, which has a nose and tail radar for 360 coverage, the person mentioned that it was unnecessary, since the radar performance was already nearing that range and coverage, and would only add more weight to an already large platform without much of an advantage... hence, a calculated decision was taken. He pointed out that the nose was not a radome like on combat aircraft but a moulded, metal or composite nose, and would need extensive refitting to add a radar inside, which would add cost, weight and aerodynamic testing as well. Additionally, the threat axes would be covered by the present radar quite effectively, and thus these additions would be unnecessary.

The individual TR modules (8 of which are in a single TRMM) have a power of 65W, but have been overpowered to 75W without problems... this will be valuable for the flight commanders to illuminate Low observable targets. It also points to the amount of adaptability that the radar has built in-to it, which should make us proud.

Additionally, the radar can have different pulse widths (again, I will not specify) to detect and investigate close formations and provide better resolution. more adaptability right there.

The TRMMs and antenna array have been developed by CABS and DARE. LRDE has made the processing units and integration boxes. Additionally, there is a mission data recorder, which records everything - screenshots, radar data, voices, mouse clicks, etc etc etc and stores it for later "post-mortem" and debriefing analysis. This can also be sent to the ground centre by the comm link for real time planning. The bitrates, I wont mention, probably because it is sensitive.

However, when asked about using the radar to communicate, as a directional, high-bitrate data link, he mentioned that it was possible (the americans have achieved datarates of around 248 MBps from their radars) and could be done by the radar, but would be seen as to whether it would really be useful.. However, he was quite enthusiastic in that it could be achieved easily if required.

Inter-operability and data link wouldn't be a problem. The data link would be Israeli, but the format and technique of transfer would be completely indian (ie, until a completely indian data link was developed), and would ensure complete secrecy without any issues. This would be easily achieved.

The model shown this time was also salient in the amount of details as compared to those 1 year ago, which were quite rough... note the satcom comm. systems which form the bulge just behind the cabin doors - something not seen on the older models.

The operability of the AEW will also be at a lower level than the Phalcon.... the Phalcon will work at teh strategic level, while our plane will operate at a sub-theatre level to provide round the clock coverage quite effectively... the operating pattern will be Phalcon-AEW-Phalcon-AEW.... teh phalcons will patrol a large area, while the AEW will provide continuous coverage to plug the gaps and aid the forces in that area.

When asked if we were also looking at a JSTAR type performance, he mentioned that it would not be in this version, but could be in a later update, if the weight permitted. Overall, I got the impression that they have definitely tried to put everything that the Phalcon has into the AEW&C without too much weight penalty, and adding any more large sensors or modes may not be advisable.

However, wrt the ASP project, the AEW project is far far ahead, and is completely different, in that, while the ASP was a simple surveillance platform, and could not any NCW and combat control that the AEW will do. Additionally, the AEW will be a complete system, and is highly effective, even giving a level of accuracy that may be able to guide missiles to aerial targets without the launch aircraft being required to switch on their own radars.....

overall, an extremely potent machine, entirely undeserving of any brickbats that it is getting.

Any more questions, plz do ask, and I shall try to answer them.... anything to remove, plz tell me; although i'm sure what i have put up is completely safe...

Cheers

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 16 Feb 2009 11:58

In continuation to the AEW&C post, I am also putting up a report on a lecture by an Israeli AEW scientist with ELTA, Naval Capt Gideon Landa on their G550 AEW at the Seminar (just after Dr. Christopher's talk). The G550 CAEW was the one displayed at AI09.

I do not share the same enthusiasm for secrecy with foreign info, since I'm assuming that what they are saying will be unclassified anyway (or atleast, they should be smart enough to not release secret info in a public demonstration).

I do wonder why ELTA are pushing for the G550 when we already have the Phalcon, and when the indigenous one is blazing through. I suspect that they are aiming it for the Indian Naval reqts in case the P8I doesn't come through, or for the tech, if it does.

However, the G550 CAEW can also perform Naval sea surveillance - I regret that I forgot to ask this question to our guys.

The Crux of Capt Landa's talk was about the need for an AEW in modern warfare, with explanation of their G550 mounted CAEW radar.

The modern AWACS needs to perform both Air Force and Naval missions -

AF missions such as
- Airborne surveillance,
- EW and ESM,
- A2A and A2G combat Control and
- Battle management.

For the Navy, it also needs to perform
- Shore Based surveillance
- AEW &C
- Naval Arena Command and Control
- Battle mgmt.

This can be achieved by three types of platforms:

1. Carrier based aircraft (Hawkeye type)

These are good for large CBGs and task forces. However, they suffer from low mission altitude, resulting in less LOS and coverage. The Low speed and short endurance also means that they have a short time on station and can do little else except provide protective cover for the group

2. Ship borne helo (like the Ka-31 Helixes)

These provide flexibility, but the very limited range, endurance, altitude and coverage means that they are insufficient except to provide close protection.

3. Shore Based AEW&C

This being the selling point of his talk, he mentioned the advantages, without pointing out that in a nation like india, where, unlike in Israel, we act far from home ground, and therefore, need more than shore based AEW&C a/c.

Anyway, he pointed out that their larger size meant much more powerful sensors with multi-mission flexibility. Additionally, they could also do radar imaging. The Long range, endurance and altitude also means more time on station and better coverage.

Coming to the G550 based CAEW aircraft that ELTA was offering:

It is based on a Gulfstream G550 aircraft, and provides full 360 degree surveillance using its 4 conformal arrays - side arrays, and two conformal arrays in the nose and back array in the fuselage tailboom area. The Front and back arrays operate at a higher frequency.

The Array has secondary IFF, ESM (through nose and wing mounted sensors), and is a 3rd gen array (no idea what that means). The Self Protection suite includes a MAWS, IRST and an RWR along with jamming equipment (which was not specified). An add-on podded, underwing ISAR has been developed and can be integrated as well.

The CAEW provides 7 hrs time on station at 500 km and 5 hrs at 1000 km. For 24 hr operations in a given perimeter, we need 2 aircraft and 3 crews at 500 km, and 3 a/c and 5 crews at 1500 km range.

Another great thing is that the aircraft also supports a real time ground crewed mission control, which means that a large number of operators can work withe the aircraft based ones, to ease their workload.... again forgot to ask if our AEW also has a similar capability.

Initial delivery started in Sep 2006, and IOC was attained in Sep 2008.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Feb 2009 12:08

thanks a lot KP, BRJingo medal for you too !

added later : really heart warming info on the AEW ! thanks again.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 16 Feb 2009 12:10

U should tell em that they need a more competent IP/Patent Attorney if they wish to have their patent enforceable. Right now that patent has holes/sieves that a camel will pass though, and gives out way too much tech information of articles they fabricated that will be gleefully absorbed by Lizard and Demon.

Did you get any photo to the new TR module? AI 2007 had 2 prototype articles on display.

What is the FPGA they intend to use? # of cells and speed?

In terms of beam elevation steering, I am not impressed, its got to be more.

So total how many TR modules and thus how much EIRP? And how much processing gain?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Feb 2009 12:27

first i thought it was some kinda large phased array.. but when i wore my glasses to find it has more AI, programmable logic etc.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 16 Feb 2009 12:28

I am sorry to post it here, but the interim budget is out and the defence allocation has been a whopping 1,41,700/- crores fantastic....a rise of 36,000/- crore.

Any comments guys with a capital expenditure of 54,000/- crore.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Feb 2009 12:30

^^^
why this thread ??
you are on BR long enough to find the right thread.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Feb 2009 12:31

Thanks Prasad for that most illuminating report on ouyr AEW/AWACS progress.The Israelis are pushing for the conformal AEW option,as it is far cheaper than the Phalcon AWACS.The IAF can buy more conformal AEW aircraft and cover more airspace with larger numbers.This is perhaps in the Indian context a better option as we cannot afford large numbers of ultra expensive AWACS.The combination of a few AWACS,smaller AEW aircraft with conformal radars,either the Gulfstream of Embraer options,aerostats and even perhaps a few airships (displayed at the BAe pavilion) and long endurance UAVs would give us an excellent cocktail of options to suit the varying conditions and threats prevalent in the subcontinent.

In general,there were far fewer people this time manning the stalls and pavilions,probably due to the eco meltdown.One felt it especially on the first day when many stalls appeared empty given their size.There were also this time lesser experienced people manning the desi pavilions/stalls.The last show,our desi stalls had some excellent people thoroughly knowledgable about the various products displayed.One interesting and welcome feature was the growing proliferation of desi mags and journals on defence.I think that it is long past time when BR also appears in print in some form,as one has been saying for aeons.

Bad omen for the F-16.If its tyres cannot withstand Bangalore's "winter heat",then imagine the tyre during a hot northern summer!

The best part was the BR stall,prominent and right in the heart of the show.It did terrific business and evoked a warm response from visitors,some who had prior knowledge of BR and a good opinion of the work being done.We even had a pic with the Dy.Def.Min. of Afghanistan.Kaps has the pic.I strongly suggest that BR also has a stall at the next Defexpo during the winter in Delhi,were the Army and Naval expo takes place.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Feb 2009 12:37

which are the other hottest countries that f-16s are being operated currently?

disha · Post by **disha** » 16 Feb 2009 12:40

rakall wrote:
A krish wrote:Yes! But I have got to accept that people at the ISRO stalls where goons! They didn't know anything and were reluctant to answer (i.e if they knew anything) on Indian manned mission. And the posters too had nothing on mass fraction. But I was surprised that the poster mentioned CE20 as Mk-III upper stage while we all believed that it was CE25!
Seconding the thoughts of A.Krish.. I made numerous visits to ISRO stall to specifically findout Isp & Thrust of S200, L110, C25.. No use.. They had a very good stall with lot of neat info on the posters.. Everybody says I am not the concerned person.. the VSSC people are not here..

One person takes me to GSLV-MkIII chart and shows me the strap-ons and says they are L110.. and the middle section is S200... I had to tell him it is the other way.. Not the standards generally expected from ISRO.. wish they had the right persons there..

Hmmm... they did not know and were probably trying to help. Silly perhaps. But that makes them goons. Learning something new here now ...

disha · Post by **disha** » 16 Feb 2009 12:45

k prasad wrote:Some random thoughts on AI-09:

That is an excellent account of on the side vignettes...

k prasad wrote: 5. However, the indoor stalls (both BEL and DRDO) were another matter altogether - very nicely done, and was great to see the interest with which the stall-wallahs explained the system to customers and school-children alike. I didn't notice them neglecting the newbies they were responding to just becoz someone big came there, and it was indeed nice to see even teh project heads explaining the info.... I guess the difference was the sun.

...

6. The Indian exhibitors were immaculately briefed by their superiors on the info that was to be given. Unlike previous times, this time, there were relatively senior hands-on people manning the stalls, and not the peripheral personnel like last time, and they were more than willing to answer questions or direct us to the person concerned (great change from before). More importantly, they knew the info that was to be released and what was not.... many times, I have had them suddenly get suspicious and ask me where I was from, and what I did when my questions went even slightly beyond the press-released info. The handling of sensitive info was immaculate, and I'm sure that any info that I have got taht isn't out is definitely going to come out in less than a month, or is already known to the industry.

This is remarkable. Generally we tend to treat them like "good for nothing babooze who do not learn" but that does not seem to be the case here. I think it is the case of a cultural change.

There are technological expects to this air shows and there are other "intangibles". Like for example better management and marketability. Looks like we are catching up on both. Note this is an institutional change and not an individual change.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 16 Feb 2009 12:49

Philip wrote:The Israelis are pushing for the conformal AEW option,as it is far cheaper than the Phalcon AWACS.The IAF can buy more conformal AEW aircraft and cover more airspace with larger numbers.This is perhaps in the Indian context a better option as we cannot afford large numbers of ultra expensive AWACS.The combination of a few AWACS,smaller AEW aircraft with conformal radars,either the Gulfstream of Embraer options,aerostats and even perhaps a few airships (displayed at the BAe pavilion) and long endurance UAVs would give us an excellent cocktail of options to suit the varying conditions and threats prevalent in the subcontinent.

I disagree in terms of the conformal push Philip.... in fact, this time, even in the video that Landa showed, and in the Elta stall, they were majorly pushing the Il-76 AWACS they are building for us.... we didn't even get a glimpse of the old conformal Phalcon (except for one frame). I believe the reason they brought the conformal one here was coz that is what they have.... Israeli doctrine perhaps, with their stress towards conformal arrays. Our own doctrine is probably different, with a focus towards podded arrays.

Philip wrote:In general,there were far fewer people this time manning the stalls and pavilions,probably due to the eco meltdown.One felt it especially on the first day when many stalls appeared empty given their size.There were also this time lesser experienced people manning the desi pavilions/stalls.The last show,our desi stalls had some excellent people thoroughly knowledgable about the various products displayed.One interesting and welcome feature was the growing proliferation of desi mags and journals on defence.I think that it is long past time when BR also appears in print in some form,as one has been saying for aeons.

Agree about the number of people manning stalls. I have disagreed about the expertise. However, not having visited last time, I may be wrong...

just a question, why cant BR bring out a publication, even if online.... provide a counter to FORCE and the like. Its a good thing that more and more desi mags are coming out, but we also need to get in if we must provide a balanced viewpoint.... something like the National Interest magazine perhaps??? We probably need to re-invigorate SRR....

Philip wrote:The best part was the BR stall,prominent and right in the heart of the show.It did terrific business and evoked a warm response from visitors,some who had prior knowledge of BR and a good opinion of the work being done.We even had a pic with the Dy.Def.Min. of Afghanistan.Kaps has the pic.I strongly suggest that BR also has a stall at the next Defexpo during the winter in Delhi,were the Army and Naval expo takes place.

Yep.... huge amount of interest, and sales (even for items that we thought were overpriced).... only wish that people visiting got to know more about BR itself.... most of them thought that we were just into selling stuff.... had a lot of guys asking where our store was.... Perhaps we should open one

...

Maybe next time, we'll have to push BR the website much more.... how about a magazine to give out free during AI. I bet it wouldn't be hard to come up with something in 2 yrs.... HAL came out with their Aero India Magazine, and it went like hot cakes.... perhaps this would also be a perfect opportunity for us also to do the same. I haven't thought of the cost though, but I'm sure that advertisements shouldn't be a problem - Eurofighter should always be ready.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Feb 2009 12:50

gulf region, israel, egypt and so on. some parts of US southwest also have brutal heat.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Feb 2009 12:51

KP, OT but SRR is being re-started, under the guidance of n^3 ji.
last round of editing in progress.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 16 Feb 2009 13:00

disha wrote: This is remarkable. Generally we tend to treat them like "good for nothing babooze who do not learn" but that does not seem to be the case here. I think it is the case of a cultural change.

There are technological expects to this air shows and there are other "intangibles". Like for example better management and marketability. Looks like we are catching up on both. Note this is an institutional change and not an individual change.

Exactly.... I think there has been a new energy that the DRDO and DPSUs have been imbued with from the last time, and that has resulted in, and from the publicity they have got. Average people seem to know a lot more about defence than before (i still remember the first aero India when some guy next to me asked what the pilot was for.... the stall-wallah could only roll his eyes). It is this interest that has rubbed off, and I guess the scientists realize that their showing more interest to the public will only do them good.

Coming to some more observations:

15. BR Stall (contd): As I did point out above, most people didn't even notice that we were BR.com... they came, saw and went thinking that we were an aviation shop... We need to publicize the website more. Perhaps keep a box of visiting cards or a pamphlet out??

Great to hear about SRR, Rahulji!!!

16. Private Participation: I think this was really the hallmark of this time's show, and stood out more than the aircrafts or the DPSU rennaissance. The sheer size and level of involvement of the Pvt participation, I think has only become apparent now, be it the huge Alpha design stalls bang inside Hall B (where the BR stall was), or the Astra place, or teh smaller stalls in there....

Another amazing thing is that a lot of these guys are not just building for the Indian requirements, but have started looking at having work outsourced to them from foreign cos as well... For eg, Alpha design manufactures the metal parts in the Cornershot system for teh israelis. This augers well for our Def industry in general. Hope that continues further, since it will only lead to more technological absorption and increase our level as well. Involvement with foreign production will also lead to better quality which can only help us.

Moreover, the rise of pvt cos has been a boon for both the armed forces as well as DRDO - the forces becoz they can now get better quality products in larger numbers, even if it is with a profit margin. The DRDO is happy becoz they no longer will get the brickbats because of bad production.

17. More Independent experts:

I noticed at the Seminar that a large number of independent experts and academia were giving presentations... this is extremely interesting since it points out that we are not afraid to ask for outside help, or hire outside experts to work on our projects. A lot of these guys were those dealing with UAVs (possibly coz UAVs have had the largest academia participation).

One UAV developer from the States last had a project for the Singapore govt 5 years ago, and is looking for a project... As he mentioned, he hates the hassles that export controls, proprietary rights, etc bring with it, so he works on a project, and gives the complete rights to that country in exchange for the royalties and a clause stating that he will not work on a similar field for 5 yrs.

This new openness I think does auger well for our R&D, since these guys will be going far beyond simple consultancy work to actually working for us.

George J · Post by **George J** » 16 Feb 2009 13:06

K Prasad:
Very very good update on the CABS AEW program. Really loved the comparison and contrast of the Conformal and Podded radar. You did note something in Capt. Landa's talk that applies heavily to AWACS platform and especially to the CABS effort: the Battle Management. Since not much is talked about this aspect, its something to keep in mind the next time you encounter a chatty CABS person.

They have made a lot of progress in the IT-Vity aspect of Battle Managment, the trouble is the managers themselves (IAF) has just started learning how to manage...so its going to be a lot of back and forth.

disha · Post by **disha** » 16 Feb 2009 13:10

k prasad wrote:OK.... report on AEW&C

Thanks a lot Prasad for getting this report through. One of the best! Here are my questions ....

Now, an amazing aspect that hasn't been noted is that this sensor will also have a limited elevation coverage of 10-17 degrees, which i think does not exist on other present day AEW radars. This will allow the radar beam to continue to point in the same direction even if the aircraft goes into a bank or a turn.

Is that they exist but are disabled in existing AEW radars? I do think they are disabled.

There will be 5 operators with 7 crew rest seats - operator comfort has obviously played a large role in the design.

The above is very very important. Do they also have sleeping cabins? The jet is small, but it should have a cabin for crew comfort. This small details count a lot.

Inter-operability and data link wouldn't be a problem. The data link would be Israeli, but the format and technique of transfer would be completely indian (ie, until a completely indian data link was developed), and would ensure complete secrecy without any issues. This would be easily achieved.

My question here is, do they use one time pad for encryption and if they do it will be interesting to know how the keys are maintained.

overall, an extremely potent machine, entirely undeserving of any brickbats that it is getting.

If LCA gets lot of tripe from media and our own ISRO people are called goons, AEW & C is a next level up. Very difficult to understand and appreciate. I just wish them good luck on this.

Thanks again for digging this up. Is it possible for you to write an article with photos?