Aero India 2009

[Arunkumar]

Some photos.
One of them has specifications of TV3-117VMA-SBM1V engine of Mi-28/Mi-17 helicopter.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... Arunkumar/

[Hiten]

Suman Sharma said that she took inspiration from a famous woman Cosmonaut and that even though she (Suman) hasn't reached for the stars yet, she has taken a step closer....

thanks for the translation

[Jay]

Yes...and not in the near future, why so long ? better change the identity, address, name and possible face surgery immediately to escap from the hit list of Mossad & ISI black team who target anyone whose name is starting with the letter 'K' as Khomeini starts with K.

These seminars are public dissemination of info regarding Indian defence systems and products.

What Kobe said is completely relevant. The name handle is not to hide from hitlist, but to keep the information sources open. In one to one interviews if somebody ralizes that its the same person who's disseminating the info on a public info board then its hard to get all the info. Take a look back at few of the posts in this thread where some members were saying how an employee from Kaveri program came to BR stall asking about the report which Prasad made here. By the way, we don't see your full name here as well!

[Rahul M]

rakall and K prasad, any info on the IRJ concept ??

the 100 seater civilian a/c from NAL/HAL ??

[SaiK]

well.. we have very good moderators, who knows what needs to be immediately taken away and what can remain for public view. don't worry, have curry.

[Arun_S]

Friends some of my contribution
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... 9/K+Mehta/

Iskara photo composition is very good.

[kit]

Suman Sharma said that she took inspiration from a famous woman Cosmonaut and that even though she (Suman) hasn't reached for the stars yet, she has taken a step closer....

thanks for the translation

Valentina Tereschkova ?

[kit]

well.. we have very good moderators, who knows needs to be immediately taken away and what can remain for public view. don't worry, have curry.

once you put it here it will always be public ! whether you yank it off a few hours or days later doesn't matter ! Thats what i think about BRF , since its a wealth of Open source ( free ! ) what prevents people or bots from scanning it every few hours or so ?
unless of course you know how it is being done !

[shiv]

Jagan
The MiG-27 always had hardpoints under the wing, fitted with swivelling pylons. There are older photos of our MiGs. See:

http://www.aereo.jor.br/wp-content/uplo ... mig-27.jpg

The MiG-27 has nine hardpoints.

Centrline x 1
Wing Glove X 2
Fuselage x 4
Wings X 2 (for ferry tanks)

Rupak - the MiG 27s used to have 7 with none on the wings - so I just wonder when these wet points were created. I recall reading this way back in my younger days and I fished out and old Observer's book that says exactly that. So obviously some development has gone on - and I certainly missed it until Jagman pointed it out.

[Surya]

shiv

I believe the hard points were there but were practically useless because of the limitation on the swing wing if they were used.



Rupak mentions as swivel and maybe that helps somewhat.

[rakall]

rakall and K prasad, any info on the IRJ concept ??

the 100 seater civilian a/c from NAL/HAL ??

Yeah.. the design is on.. the govt is behind the project.. the project is still in preliminary stage, a proposal has not yet been made to the DST and the clearence has not yet come for it.. It will be ATR-72 class with better efficiency..

- All weather operation & capability from semi-prepared runways..
- 2000km range, 9km cieling.. approx 850m TO, Landing run
- ~500kmph cruise speed..

There could be a turbo-fan version of this as a followup - with slightly higher ceiling, cruise speed & range



NM-5

NAL has got sanction for a new plane called NM-5 - which is a stretched version of Hansa, basically 5-seater version of Hansa.. N is for NAL, M is for Mahindra and 5 for 5setaer.. the plane will be manufatured by Mahindra Aerospace..

Please see attched pic for more specs.. the plane is a lot further into the design stage and there was a cabin mock-up.. it has already got sanction for funding..

12 Hansa delivered.. logged more than 3500hours

Saras

Saras two Protos flying.. but no weight redcution in protos.. the production variant is undergoing lot of weight reduction due to composite replacement.. whatever "little bit of overweright" that cannot be removed is not seen as an issue bcoz they have moved to higher thrust engines..

Saras has got orders for 15airframes from IAF.. and an LoI for 35 more.. It is also getting some export enquiries..
so a good number of Saras will be made.. HAL will be the production agency

There was a cockpit MFD at the NAL pavilion.. Absolutely wonderful.. In a very easy layout it gives all the info the pilot needs -- temp, oil pressure for both engines, fuel available, left wing, right wing, left tail, right tail trim, rudder deflection, fuel loading map on the wings --- all this info in one single screen.. ofcourse it has screen tabs -- for other info he can just switch screens.. I was thoroughly impressed with it..

The testpilots worked closely with a private company who developed the MFD interface and you could see the result..

The cabin noise is lesser than ATR or other turbo-prop planes.. but the rear cabin has some vibration issues - they are trying to resolve it by an AVCS/AVDS.

PT1 flew 128 flights & PT2 flew 37 flights

[rakall]

More details on SARAS

- 15m length, 14.7m span, 5.25m height
- 7100kg MTOW, 1430kg fuel, 1230kg payload

- 900m TO distance, 875m landing distance
- max climb rate - 608m/min
- max Range - 590km (14 pax), 1430km (8 pax), 1770km (ferry range).. all with 45min reserve
- Max cruise speed - 497kmph
- Endurance - 4hr 45min

[vivek_ahuja]

Rakall,

Any more details on the light cargo variant of the Saras? Cabin dimensions, loading doors etc? Any structural modifications to improve the carriage of light cargo pallets?

Thanks.

-Vivek

[Singha]

imho instead of these hype about RRJ, we should focus all available manpower(scarce) on doing the MTA ourself with Embraer as the consultant. engine can be imported from someone out there.

atleast that fills a vital need instead of a skill building exercise in a market already crowded with embraer, ATR and bombardier.

[k prasad]

PT1 flew 128 flights & PT2 flew 37 flights

Great info rakall,.... meshes well with what the NAL guys at the seminar told me, esp the weight reduction part.

Just to add, they said that 250 out of 500 test hours were done, and they were trying to finish IOC by early next year.

Next prototype will have the composite structure. They are in the process of fabricating it now. They weren't sure whether PT3 would have the new engine or the same old one, but they said that in all probability, it would be the old one, since they were seeing how the new engines could be integrated into the aircraft. PT4 will surely have the new engines and full weight reduction.

[rakall]

Rakall,

Any more details on the light cargo variant of the Saras? Cabin dimensions, loading doors etc? Any structural modifications to improve the carriage of light cargo pallets?

Thanks.

-Vivek

No specifics.. but the light cargo (light package carrier) variant shown has one side of seats removed and 7seats left on one side.. There is no change in cabin dimensions or door layout is shown.. exatcly same - except that one side seats are removed and the space is used for light package cargo pellets..

[chetak]

quote="anishns" Suman Sharma said that she took inspiration from a famous woman Cosmonaut and that even though she (Suman) hasn't reached for the stars yet, she has taken a step closer....

thanks for the translation

Valentina Tereschkova ?[/quote]


May be from the first female cosmonaut, Laika!

[vivek_ahuja]

No specifics.. but the light cargo (light package carrier) variant shown has one side of seats removed and 7seats left on one side.. There is no change in cabin dimensions or door layout is shown.. exatcly same - except that one side seats are removed and the space is used for light package cargo pellets..

What interests me is that the Do-228, for example, has roughly the same dimensions as the Saras and even has lesser MTOW by a good ~600 Kg than the Saras. Yet it seems to have a larger payload capacity because of its relatively light empty mass. The empty mass of the Saras is very high by comparison. Any details as to why this is the case?

[k prasad]

I will try and post the following by tomorrow:
...
...
Anything I've promised but forgotten??? Please remind me...

Thanks
Prasad

You have audio file for these ?

Sorry sir... only the notes and my memory... The videos were being webcast, but I'm not able to find them now. I think the webcasts may have been for registered companies. However, if anyone can find them, please post the link.'

Also, Domain-b has interviews with the keynote and plenary speakers at teh Seminar. Relates to their talks. Check that out as well.

For more downloads from the Seminar's site, check out some of these company presentations - they do give some amazing info, and some great LCA pictures:

http://www.prdomain.com/mediaroom/aeroindia/index.htm

It also has interviews with the technical speakers, like Dr. Christopher, Dr. Prasad Sampath, etc.... not to be missed.

If you see the video, please provide a report. Shiv-saar, if possible, could you upload these on youtube??

Fine summation Prasad of Sweetman's views.Was there any view/talk about TVC and dogfighting aspects? Also the need for a gun/cannon,as an essential item for the Israelis.

TVC did come up in the initial part of the talk, which I missed. However, from what was spoken of afterwards, TVC is great for close combat, and given the increasing threat of SAMs, it may one day become essential to have them.

However, the issue here is the extreme stress on the airframe (and on the pilots), which may make TVC not so worth it. Additionally, the doctrinal and tactical question of whether TVC gives any large advantages over non-TVC?? He spoke later about the Cobra - great for show, but is it useful in combat??

Another point he also noted is that TVC may end up actually reducing your E (Energy) because of the thrust loss when the nozzle is flexed... in that case, unless the pilot is highly skilled, highly trained, and extremely cunning, he will end up using the TVC, lose energy - altitude and speed, and become an easy target (I think this somewhat relates to what Fornof also said).

Coming to the gun, I wasn't able to ask him about it, but while talking to someone else, he did mention that by no means will we be seeing the end of dogfights any time soon - in fact, with the Radars getting better, Missiles getting longer, but at the same time, EW getting better and better, it means that pilots see each other quickly, and can try to throw them off, but if both the guys are good, you'll end up losing missiles fast and it will come down to a dogfight - he didn't mention guns here, but the import is quite clear I think.

The unsaid thing is that missiles and other electronics can be defeated, and do have a doubtfulness, but a gun is dumb - it will not listen to anything else. It may actually end up being most useful against the best of opponents. (I think talking wrt Israel, this means that they may not use it for normal ops now, but if there is a war, they will definitely need it).

Another basic idea is that you need to be able to disengage at your choice, rather than be stuck - which means you need to be able to throw off your opponent, either by Missiles or by the threat of guns.

The major point that came out of his talk and qns later is that we are at the Cusp between old doctrine and new technologies. There have been some false flags like during the 50s and when the 3rd gen of fighters was ending, but this may be the right one.... it is upto the air forces to decide which way they want to go, and we will definitely end up seeing a lot of new, promising technologies fall by the wayside in the next few years.

K. Prasad,
your info is quiet useful (both for the BR Jingoes and for the enemy). In the near future you may want to change your handle and not use your name in posts. I hope its not your real name.

BR Moderators,
need orientation session for key persons to be discrete with their content and their personal info.

just to be safe....

Yes...and not in the near future, why so long ? better change the identity, address, name and possible face surgery immediately to escap from the hit list of Mossad & ISI black team who target anyone whose name is starting with the letter 'K' as Khomeini starts with K.

These seminars are public dissemination of info regarding Indian defence systems and products.

Kobe, thanks for the concern, but I think me, rakall and most all other jingos who do have info are quite careful about it, as are DRDO and the forces when they release it.

Firstly, as I have said before, whatever I have put up is only what was said at the talks or told at the stalls.... now, given that some of the info may be classified, we have used extra caution and not released them (some of the stuff, we don't even discuss by mail, just to be safe). We are quite aware about how popular BR is, so what we put up will probably be less than half of what we actually know (which is not in PD, or was told to us in person)

I'm not worried about any 'hitlists'... there is nothing we're releasing that shouldn't be open. Plus, given that we're too pussyfooted to even kill Dawood, why will they harass us poor SDRE jingos???

And P.S... yes, that is my real name.

[Cybaru]

imho instead of these hype about RRJ, we should focus all available manpower(scarce) on doing the MTA ourself with Embraer as the consultant. engine can be imported from someone out there.

atleast that fills a vital need instead of a skill building exercise in a market already crowded with embraer, ATR and bombardier.

Totally Agree. This needs to be worked on priority basis. Get either Airbus or Embraer as consultants and get cracking on this. Strategic airlift makes all the difference between winning and losing.

[Rahul M]

rakall and K prasad, any info on the IRJ concept ??

the 100 seater civilian a/c from NAL/HAL ??

Yeah.. the design is on.. the govt is behind the project.. the project is still in preliminary stage, a proposal has not yet been made to the DST and the clearence has not yet come for it.. It will be ATR-72 class with better efficiency..

- All weather operation & capability from semi-prepared runways..
- 2000km range, 9km cieling.. approx 850m TO, Landing run
- ~500kmph cruise speed..

There could be a turbo-fan version of this as a followup - with slightly higher ceiling, cruise speed & range

.............

thanks a lot !

I guess its too early to ask but any tentative dates ?
for FSED, first flight etc ?

One reason I'm asking this is that such an a/c can become a perfect platform for our desi AEW&C systems, and also medium MPA role.

[Sanjay M]

Anybody get any pics of this thing?

http://patriotroom.com/article/israeli- ... -in-action

Israeli suicide drone, which India is buying

[ArmenT]

The unsaid thing is that missiles and other electronics can be defeated, and do have a doubtfulness, but a gun is dumb - it will not listen to anything else. It may actually end up being most useful against the best of opponents. (I think talking wrt Israel, this means that they may not use it for normal ops now, but if there is a war, they will definitely need it).

I think it was Ben Rich of the Lockheed Skunk Works, who once famously observed, "General, that's why they call them 'miss-iles' instead of 'hit-iles'!!". USAF and USN learned the hard way during Vietnam that a gun can come in very handy in air-to-air combat.

Incidentally, the British optimistically named one edition of the Rapier Missile System as a "Hitile". Didn't live up to its name in the Falklands though.

[Jaeger]

quick question about this


Did the Upgraded MiG-27 get an extra set of pylons under the wings and the plumbing for it? because I am pretty much sure that I have never seen a MiG-27 with four underwing stations.

Actually Jagan, the MiG-27 always had that pair of pylons on the outer wing. However, they're only usable at a certain sweep angle, and don't swivel to match wing movement, unlike the Tornado's pylons. They're usually used for LR/Ferry missions that don't require wing movement.

Clicky 1

Clicky 2

[Singha]

with a podded "komar radar" and a single ASM , plus drop tanks on these
wing pylons, can the Mig27 be used as a cheap maritime strike supplement to
back up jaguars and sukhois?
kinda like a yindu mirage3-e-hyders?

[Rahul M]

^^^^
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... 1.jpg.html

though I think they are no longer active now. also the sqdn name would be winged arrows.

[k prasad]

OK, Item #1 on the to-do list: Dr. Varadarajan's talk

Airborne Radar Development in India
- Dr. S. Varadarajan, Dir, LRDE

The initial studies for developing an Airborne Radar in India by LRDE commenced in the 1980s, as a plan for developing an AWACs system.

Based on these plans, the ASP (Rotodome, for the newbies and the amnesiac) was developed... it was an S-band radar, integrated on an Avro platform. Testing was done in the 90s, but the project was shelved after a crash which killed 7 top project scientist who were onboard, and destroyed the only prototype.

After that, there was a lull in airborne radar development. However, with the LCA program, LRDE was brought in to help in developing the MMR radar.{{note the help part - he didn't say LRDE began to develop}}

To develop Airborne radars, the following technologies need to be developed and leveraged:

- Medium PRF operation for A2A look down mode - to reduce ground clutter
- Slotted waveguide Array technology - with ultra-low Sidelobes to mitigate clutter
- Integration and testing on a/c platforms - needed to be developed inhouse
- Signal and Data processing - using Integral SPs and Data Processors.

Ongoing Airborne Radar Projects:

A. Maritime Patrol Radar (MPAR) project:
- This is a project to develop light-weight radars for maritime surveillance on light platforms, such as the SV2000, which is now in successful service
- A chin mounted array weighing <105 kg
- Platforms - UAV, Dornier, Helicopters - ALH, Ka-25/31 (successfully tried and integrated)
- Rotation rates of 6-60 rpm.

Super Vision-2000 (SV2000):
- Was started in 2000 (hence the name)
- An upgrade of the basic MPAR technologies

Primary Modes:
- Surface Surveillance mode (need to detect sub-snorkels of around 1 m2 RCS at long range)
- A2A detection - in look up and look down modes

Secondary modes:
- Weather modes - Eather mapping and warning
- Beacon mode - for Search and Rescue
- Navigation mode

Based on the SV2000 (Which has also been tested on a Tata sumo platform), in 2004, an upgraded version, called the XV2004 was developed:

XV2004:
- SV2000 Mk.2 version
- Mainly designed for Rotary and fixed wing platforms - has been belly mounted on the Dornier (a pic was shown). It is now in service.

The upgrades in teh XV2004 are:
- New mapping mode added, which includes radar signature and ISAR ship image mapping & classification
- The requirement for the ISAR was at least 3 m resolution - they have achieved 2-3 m as required.
- Hardware has been upgraded
- The processor is new and upgraded
- The Bandwidth is 60 MHz
- A new array stabilization system was developed for fixed wing operation.

Primary Modes:
- Sea Surveillance
- Air Target detection

Secondary modes:
- Weather and Navigation mode
- SART beacon
- NEW - Mapping mode - Range signature, ISAR Ship imaging and classification.

{{They showed an ISAR image of a ship - it was excellent - 2-3 m resolution. The type of ship was automatically classified, and the length calculated as 82 m.

The image was better than the ISAR image that was taken from an Israeli image taken from their Eitam CAEW AWACS, which I have talked about before - the ship classes were about the same, as were the sizes. However, the Israeli one also demonstrated a 3D ISAR image - I am not sure if that is a processed version of the 2D image.}}

The radar has achieved 1 m2 detection (submarine snorkel) at 20 nm distance. This is beyond the required range that was asked for in the requirements. The range signature can measure the length of a target to within 2 m accuracy.


Technologies Developed from the MPAR projects:
1. Airborne Radar System Engineering
2. Sea Clutter Reduction - this was a major achievement, and is now being extensively leveraged.
3. Slow moving target tracking from a moving platform - the accuracy is around +/- 2 knots in speed, and +/- 5 deg heading angle.
4. ISAR and Radar signature algorithms
- Higher BW generation using deramp techniques to obtain 3 m resolution
- Dedicated target tracking by antenna and waveform locking on target.


B. AEW&C:

- It is an S-band Active Phase Array Radar (APAR)
- E-scan in borh Azimuth and Elevation
- 3 subsytems have been developed by LRDE - the Active Antenna Array Unit (AAAU), Central Unit and the Radar Processing Unit.

The Technology Demonstrator of this LSTAR (plz expand someone) will take another 6 months.

Currently, under Phase 1 testing, a 2 segment array is under test (I have put the results in my AEW post)

Under Phase 2 - the full array (containing 10 segments) will be qualified.

They have achieved sidelobe levels of < -28 dB, and scanning beyond 60 deg angle.


C. MMR:
- X-band, pulse doppler radar
- Flat plate slotted waveguide array
- LRDE was involved in developing the Antenna and the Signal processor
- As known, the A2A mode has been successfully tested.

The Slotted waveguide array antenna of the MMR has the following features:
- 650 mm diameter
- <4.8 kg weight
- Peak Side Lobe Level (SLL) of < -28 dB
- RMS SLL of < -42 dB
- Antenna Gain > 34 dB

The parts mentioned, namely the Antenna and Signal processor and some other subsytems have now been integrated with the Elta-2032 and will be integrated on the LSP-3 onwards.

As of now, MMR has been closed, except for leveraging technologies. Otherwise, most work on that radar is off, and they are concentrating on the AESA for Tejas. As rakall has mentioned, they have put the MMR on a radome mounted on the roof of a hanger, where it is tracking small targets quite successfully upto 120 km.


Future Programs:

1. SAR for UAVs:
- This will be integrated on MAHE UAVs.
- It will operate in Ku band
- It is currently in an advanced state of development.

2. Tejas AESA:
- This will be an X-band radar
- They are looking at 3-3.5 year project completion time.
- The Radar will be based around an ERP - Exciter Receiver Processor.
- The modes will be used simultaneously, giving excellent performance
- The Radar will also allow the Tejas to be terrain aware (i do not know what exactly this means, but it may be SAR mode. Additionally, note that others in the LCA project have talked about automatic terrain navigation for the Mk.2. I suspect that this is a means to that end).

Modes:
- A2A
- A2G - AGR and RBM (someone plz expand)
- ISAR, etc.
- SAR???


Comment:
Overall, the points made were that we are advancing very rapidly in airborne radars. The MPAR program was a perfect stepping stone to design both maritime patrol radars as well as integrate them on airborne platforms. In fact, we didn't have any expertise on the integration and testing of these systems on the platform, and had to design testing solutions ourselves (something that Tamilmani also mentioned).

We still face huge problems with making smaller radars, such as the AESA. They will most likely use foreign (read Israeli) TRMs for the initial period to prevent delays, and will integrate indian TRMs when they are ready - LRDE has become wiser in evaluating its weaknesses, and is now delinking the riskier parts from major projects.

mmW radars are under teh purview of DARE, and do not come under LRDE.

A tidbit frm the LRDE stalls:
- WLR did not come because users are conducting training trials and some final testing on them in mountains.

- If anyone noticed the Bharni radar, they would have seen big green boxes behind them - the Bharni was planned to be 150 kg (according to IAF requirements), but is slightly overweight at 170 kg. They have reduced this somewhat.

Coming to the boxes, it is meant for extemely high altitude operations on mountain-tops (and I mean it, when i say top). To acheive this, the Bharni disassembles into small sections, which fit into these boxes - 10 of them to be precise. Two of them can be placed on mules and carried up to the mountain top. The amazing part is that assembly and dissembly is extremely quick - I have myself seen a group of 4 people disassembling and packing up a Bharni in less than 15 minutes - and they were in no rush mind you!!

The Bharni does have some unique and innovative solutions, such as the position of the horn, which removed the need for more rotary joints - more rotary joints = more loss and noise = more power needed & more complexity = more weight & cost.

They are also trying to see where they can lighten the weight further.

- Aslesha is the 3D version of the Bharni (incidentally, both are named after auspicious Nakshatras of the Indian cosmos). They are looking at integrating either of these radars on to light and small naval platforms.... imagine if every Coast guard ship or small boat had a 100 kg radar on it!! However, to do that, they need to add more modes like sea search, etc, which is going on.

- No info on any Irbis or any JV with Russia. No Info = Not there.

Any qns????

[k prasad]

Item #2: Dr. Revankar's talk:

Advanced Airborne EW Systems - The Indian Scenario
- Dr. UK Revankar, Director, DARE

DARE Mandate
- Warner systems - EO and EM
- Self Protection Jammers (SPJs)
- EO based Electronic Attack (EA) systems
- System Upgrades
- EW Architecture.

The talk had to be cut short due to paucity of time. Additionally, due to excess of info, I wasnt able to take complete notes. Please forgive me for that.

A brief history of DARE was shown - I have recreated the slide and uploaded it below. Plz check it out:



Now, The 1st Generation of warners developed in 1986 were podded. By 1991, internal warners and jammers were developed. These SPJs have been accepted and are in service in teh IAF (2 sqns)

Warners:

1st Gen RWR
- Podded
- 15 deg accuracy
- Used for Mig-21s

2nd Gen RWRs
- Internal
- Based on DIFM
- Mig-27s
- Had frequency measurement capability.

3rd gen RWRs
- 2000
- LRU based - easy to maintain
- Video DLV
- Sensor Fusion
- Can display on LCD screen.

Current Warners have the following capabilities:
- Multioctave - 1-18 GHz
- 360 deg azimuth coverage
- Good Direction finding (10 deg rms)
- High sensitivity - 300 km
- Can detect and identify all radars and types
- Provides audio warning - can also support video display of information
- Can also cue active and passive EA systems

Current warners include: (section is missing data)

Tarang:
- 2-18 GHz
- 10 deg DF accuracy
- -55 dBm sensitivity

Tarang Mk1B:
- 2-18 GHz
- Slightly higher DF accuracy (I didnt have time to take the number)
- -65 dBm sensitivity

R118: 1-18 GHz

SIVA:
- HADF
- Slaved to R118
- 1-18 GHz

Unified RWR and ESM:
- Currently developing
- 0.5 - 40 GHz
- <1 deg DF accuracy (I dont remember exactly)
- <-65 dBm
- For the AEW&CS

Laser Warning Reciever (LWR): will integrate an LRF and LTD also.

Self Protection Jammers:

This section had to be skipped quickly, but I got the below info on our SPJ development:

- Autonomous Receiver
- Multi-octave
- High ERP
- Has a rudimentary ECM - using FML (Frequency Memory Loops)
- CMDs display - can be cued to EA systems

Electro-Optics Developments:

EO based Electronic Attack Systems under development are:

- IR Countermeasures (IRCM)
- Directed Energy IRCMs (DIRCMs)

IRCM:
- For Helicopters
- Effective against IR missiles, except those in Band II (3-6 um)

(Note: um = micrometre)

For those interested in our Laser weapons, the DIRCM will interest you:

DIRCM:
- JV with Israel (IAI)
- Will destroy enemy IR sensors on aircraft and missiles using a High Intensity IR laser Beam
- The beam will be lamp based and/or laser based systems - this is being worked on with IAI.
- The DIRCM will be highly advanced, and will be effective even against IIR seekers
- It is currently under development. LASTEC is also involved - (I spoke to a LASTEC scientist at the stall, but it is all hush-hush - I heard more no comments from then than i did from everyone else).
- Should probably be ready within 3-4 years, if things go well.

Passive Countermeasures such as Chaff and Flare are also developed by DARE.


MAWS:
Coming to Missile Warners, DARE is developed MAWS for aircarft..

- Electro-optics based - IR plume based detection
- 360 degree coverage
- Can cue the EA system
- 2 ROUNDS OF FLIGHT TRIALS HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETED.

The MAWS being developed are plume based detectors of two types

1. UV (Solar Blind) detectors

- operate at 0.25 - 0.28 um
- This Filters out the solar clutter
- The detection is achieved by detecting the UV rays from the missile's rocket propellants.
- UV MAWS has been tested on the Hack aircraft (the same one the MMR was being tested on - apparently, it has become a nice flying test bed for many systems)

2. IR based detectors:

- These have longer range than the UV detectors, but are prone to more clutter.
- DARE is working on dual color IR MAWS - operating from 3-5 um.
- This allows it to differentiate between the solar flares (1-2 um) and missile plumes (4-5 um)

UPGRADES

Apart from the normal upgrades, DARE is also developing sensor fused EW systems.

Multi Sensor Warning System (MSWS):

- It will combine the RWR, UV MAWS and LWR data
- integration occurs using a signal processor, and the info is displayed in teh cockpit MFDs or appropriate pilot displays.
- The response and data is sent to a control module which is integrated with the various EA systems.
- The CM then controls the EA systems like DIRCM, EA and Chaff/Flares.

- Currently being tested - seperate modules have undergone flight tests or are in service already.

Unified EW System (UEWS)

This is the latest system being developed, nd will integrate ALL EW systems and use the combined data to mount a concentrated attack on enemy aircrafts, which will result in far better lethality....

The various EW inputs such as RWR, Up-down Antenna, HADF, etc are combined in a Unified Receiver Exciter Processor (UREP - note... my abbreviation, not official)

UREP
- based around a central 1.28 Ghz processor
- It is a single box
- 1-18 Ghz
- Sampled Digital Receiver, DRFM
- MMIC based implementation
- Has been indigenously developed.

The UREP outpur is sent to the Jammer which controls the various SPJs, EAs, etc.

Unified RWR and ESM

This is being made for the AEW&CS.It will combine the RWR and ESM. RWR and ESM both opperate from 0.5 to 40 GHz.

RWR uses an Amplifier based DF with <1 deg DF accuracy.

ESM:
- 4 Channel SHR,
- DTOA & (Something here I wasn't able to take down)
- Mini IF Bandwidth 500 MHz

{{Someone needs to decode these}}

Technology Developed /Leveraged:

1. DRFMs
- based on 250 nm Si technology
- Operate at 1 Ghz +/- 250 MHz
- 6 bit, 8 channels

2. HADF -<1 deg RMS DF

3. Microwave Power modules
- For high power, Continuous wave (CW) operation
- Will definitely help also in teh Directed energy weapons

4. MMICs, Super Components
- Right now, we have developed and have expertise with somewhat larger size MMIC manufacture (deep sub micron - 150-250 nm level). However, we will need even smaller tech to make radars and other components effectively.
- Multi-octave operation has been successfully achieved & applied

5. Digital Receivers:
- Monobit 4 GHz
- Multibit 8 bit receivers operating at 1 GHz and 4 GHz achieved.


Qns???

[Suyogv]

Cool Info Snipy

[Rahul M]

Coming to the boxes, it is meant for extemely high altitude operations on mountain-tops (and I mean it, when i say top). To acheive this, the Bharni disassembles into small sections, which fit into these boxes - 10 of them to be precise. Two of them can be placed on mules and carried up to the mountain top. The amazing part is that assembly and dissembly is extremely quick - I have myself seen a group of 4 people disassembling and packing up a Bharni in less than 15 minutes - and they were in no rush mind you!!

aap ka muh mein ghee sakkar !!

you just made my day !!!

[k prasad]

Coming to the boxes, it is meant for extemely high altitude operations on mountain-tops (and I mean it, when i say top). To acheive this, the Bharni disassembles into small sections, which fit into these boxes - 10 of them to be precise. Two of them can be placed on mules and carried up to the mountain top. The amazing part is that assembly and dissembly is extremely quick - I have myself seen a group of 4 people disassembling and packing up a Bharni in less than 15 minutes - and they were in no rush mind you!!

aap ka muh mein ghee sakkar !!

you just made my day !!!

My pleasure sir.... incidentally, I saw this happening almost a year and a half ago, so things would have become much better by then.

The best part is that the disassembly was done using almost no tools - they could take apart the array with their bare hands - it was like a lock-in-place thing. The processing unit and all went into another box. wires and all into one more... everything.

The power may be an issue, but I dont see them having too much problem in hauling up a genset and a can of diesel, or heavy duty batteries.

Additionally, the requirement is for operation up to 17,000 feet heights, so it looks like the Army wants to haul it up to look over the mountain tops.... what this calls for is inhuman reliability standards, which have been achieved, along with extremely low temperature operation. This was one of the reasons for minimizing on as many moving parts as possible.

On aslesha, which is a 3D radar if I'm not mistaken, all processing elements are just behind the array - this not only reduces the noise and attenuation, but also makes the area around less cluttered. It is quite an amazing radar.

Any more info I can give on this??

I do have some stats from Dr. Varadarajan's talk from about a year ago (at IRSI).... I'll put that up also if you want. It does have some tidbits of help I guess.

[KiranM]

LSTAR = Light Weight Surveillance and Target Acquisition Radar

DIRCM = Directional Infra-Red Counter Measures (this one is pretty latest tech, we seem to be almost on par with Massaland in certain areas)

AGR = Air to Ground Ranging

RBM = Real Beam Mapping

[k prasad]

OK good sirs, consulting my notes from some time ago (about 1.5 years ago), here are some radar specs that Dr. Varadarajan put up on his presentation. I'm sure you'll know almost all of it, but I've put them up just in case there was something new there.

I've bolded some things that seem new.

Timeline: (1960-2007)

60s and 70s
- Preliminary R&D work on subsystems
- Major systems imported
- Radar development had not yet started

80s : The Era of learning
- INDRA I (LRDE)
- Weather radar (Isro)
- Naval Radars (BEL)
- Secondary Surveillance radar (DRDL)

90s: Consolidation
- INDRA II with Pulse Compression
- MF Phased Arrray Radar Rajendra
- 3D CAR
- BFSR- SR, MR
- LCA MMR
- APARNA (Naval Surveillance)

2000s: Closing the gaps.
LRDE has started outsourcing the peripheral systems, and now concentrates on core areas. Is also able to bring out upgrades.

- WLR
- 3D CAR upgraded to 3D surveillance radar
- Low level Light weight Radar (Bharni)


Radar Stats:

3D CAR
- S band, 150 km for 2 m^2 RCS
- 7.5/15 rpm rotation
- Provided a testing ground for new tech

3D Medium Range Surveillance Radar (ROHINI)
- S band, 150 km for 2 m^2
- Digital Waveform Generation
- Better Antenna

Ship borne ROHINI (REVATHI)
- 2 axis stabilization.

Low Level 2D light weight radar (Bharani)
- L band, 40 km/2 m^2
- 40 degrees elevation
- 450W, 170 kg
- Optimized for mountainous operation,
- can operate upto 16,000 ft, -30 degree celsius
- easy assembly/disassembly in 10 minutes - carry by mules

3D low level light weight radar (Ashlesha)
- S-band, 50 km/ 2 m^2
- Semiactive Phased Array Tech using TR modules
- 1m x 1m aperture
- 6-7 beams.

MF Phased Array Radar (Rajendra)
- C band, 80 km
- +/- 45 deg azimuth electronic scanning
3 arrays;
- C band for detection
- S band for Classification
- L band for Tracking and command classification

WLR:
- C band, 40 km for 155 mm shell
- +/- 135 deg slew.
- Multiple target handling

SV-2000
- X-band, >70 km for 1000 m^2 ships
- Medium range for submarine snorkels, short range for periscopes

AEW&CS
- S band Active Phased array
- +/- 120 deg dorsal mounted array
- A2A - 300 km/ 2 sq.m
- A2Sea - 400 km for 500 sq.m RCS ships
- Customized waveforms

SAR on Radar Imaging satellite
- C-band TR module based phased array
- Will be launched next year (2008-09)
- A radar for disaster management is being developed in Ahmedabad (my notes say SAL, but not sure about last letter).

BFSR:
- 750 m crawling man/ 16 km heavy vehicle
- 0.6 m/s to 90 kmph detection
- one radar can network with upto 10 units at one time.
- Radars have also been integrated with IR sensors to provide other users with Real time IR imagery. Supports NCW and Netted ops
{{As of now, Thermal imagers have also been integrated}}
- Automatic Target classification based on doppler signature

hope that was helpful.

Cheers
Prasad

[sum]

Shastanga namskara to K_Prasad saar for extra-ordinary intel gathering.

Three cheers to Rock-all and K_Prasad gurus.Repeat after me:

Hip-hip hooray
Hip-hip hooray
Hip-hip hooray

[k prasad]

For reference, and for Interest, esp for the info relating to the MMRCA tender, I am putting up a precis of FH Major's talk at the same conference 1 year ago - it is extremely important in trying to determine who'll win the tender:

1. FH Major's Talk:

ACM Major was in a real hurry, but heres a gist of his address. I think I got most of it.

- IAF looking very seriously at AWACS and AESA (he pronounced it as "Aisa" - Jor Lagake Aisa style) radars, and they will be the keystones for IAF's expansion.
- According to a Forecast International Survey, between 2007-15, there is an international radar maket of 50 bn USD and 11,500 radars.
- India should take a look and DRDO should look at exporting our Radars which are on par with the state-of-the-art.
- COTS tech has ensured that second tier nations are able to catch up with developed nations.

MRCA:
- The pvt players involved in offsets should not simply be JVs or wings of foreign players (this was with clear relation to the MRCA tender, which is probably an indication of the govt's policy)
- MRCA offsets - 25-30000 crores. (This was his figures, so that means that they have allotted 50-60,000 crores for the deal).

Message to DRDO:
- get educational institutations and pvt players also into radar R&D.
- Talent retention is a big challenge and our weak area.
- DRDO, DPSUs and OFBs really {{NEED TO GET THEIR ACT TOGETHER}} (my condensation - this is basically what he meant, but couldnt say so succinctly on that platform) - they need to meet timelines and project deadlines.
- delays SHOULD NOT (this he said very firmly in that no-nonsense tone that he gives sometimes) and will not be allowed to affect IAF's operational capabilities and readiness.

[Suyogv]

K prasad is a Spy he works for RAW he is also a PRO of RAW

[Rahul M]

I agree with sum. we can't thank you two enough !

[k prasad]

I agree with sum. we can't thank you two enough !

Hold ur horses Rahul, I'm putting up pics of Bharni disassembly... seeing is believing!!

[k prasad]

OK, as promised, here are pics of Bharni Disassembly - all in 10-15 minutes mind you, and with no Tools.

1. http://www.flickr.com/photos/20125521@N02/3295057672/ - start removing array, starting with the IFF antenna behind it.
2. http://www.flickr.com/photos/20125521@N02/3294232973/ - Remove array blocks
3. http://www.flickr.com/photos/20125521@N02/3295057608/ - open up the mule transportable boxes. (see the ppl carrying the parts of the array to the boxes)
4. http://www.flickr.com/photos/20125521@N02/3295057576/ - put into boxes. Note the handholds on the array blocks.

[AmitR]

OK, as promised, here are pics of Bharni Disassembly - all in 10-15 minutes mind you, and with no Tools.

1. http://www.flickr.com/photos/20125521@N02/3295057672/ - start removing array, starting with the IFF antenna behind it.
2. http://www.flickr.com/photos/20125521@N02/3294232973/ - Remove array blocks
3. http://www.flickr.com/photos/20125521@N02/3295057608/ - open up the mule transportable boxes. (see the ppl carrying the parts of the array to the boxes)
4. http://www.flickr.com/photos/20125521@N02/3295057576/ - put into boxes. Note the handholds on the array blocks.

Brilliant just great. Thanks a ton.