Strategic leadership for the future of India

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Atri
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Atri »

Rudradev wrote:Chiron ji, if things are handled right, it is my fervent hope that those whom we now know as "Naxals" may become the grassroots agents of change who advance this process eastward and northward through what is now called the "Red Corridor". From Karnataka through Andhra, and thence into Orissa (which may be the key to the East just as it was for the Marathas under Raghoji Bhosle... though as Brihaspatiji says, they sabotaged their own prospects for further expansion by conveying an impression of brigandage).

If you read about the splitting of the M2 from the Orissa Naxals in protest against the missionary-sponsored murder of Laxmanananda Saraswati, there does appear to be some promise in the idea.
Rudradev ji,

The Maratha model worked in such small time, primarily due to its decentralized expansion. The 40 year war with Aurangjeb, out of which 27 years fought without leadership of Shivaji, had shaped the responses of Marathas irreversibly. What was most detrimental to Marathas was the factor which Brihaspati ji explained.

All the capable warriors and rulers of Marathas died early, just when they were about to show promise.

Shivaji - age 50 when he died
Sambhaji - 32
Bajirao-1 - 40
Madhavrao-1 - 28 - he was the last hope of Marathas. His early death was most detrimental to Maratha and in turn Hindu supremacy in India; much more than defeat at Panipat. It is my personal conviction that if Madhavrao-1 had lived as long as Aurangjeb, India would have been a very very different country, something like Japan. A visionary and strong leadership with complete executive powers could have been the one thing India hoped for. But, tuberculosis denied that to her.

Since the spread of Islam has been decentralized in India, I guess the response will be decentralized invariably.

The one mistake Marathas commit was to expand northwards without consolidating the Deccan completely. They defeated the Nizam of Hyderabad and Hyder Ali and Tipu of Srirangapattanam on many occasions, but did not eliminate them for completely. Had they eliminated the Muslim supremacy in South before thinking of expanding northwards, they would made a lasting empire. This needs to be avoided.

Leaders emerge if there is a large pool of ideologically motivated population. This is what Marathas did not do.

It is interesting to observe that traditional power-house of India, The Magadha, has become so powerless against Muslims. The Magadhans, practically did not contribute at all after decline of Harshavardhan's empire. And interestingly, Harsha's empire was centred in Thanesar, Haryana initially, before he shifted the capital to Kannauj. So, essentially, there has been no contribution from Magadha towards nation building after decline of Guptas.

It is the western states which were predominantly occupied by Scythians and Huns who later became Jats, Punjabis, Rajputs, Marathas and southern kingdoms like Vijaynagar who resisted and defeated the Islamic onslaught.

The classical Kshatriyas of west died out long ago and were replaced by these new-Kshatriya people who actually delivered. The classical Kshatriyas of east and north grew worthless after Harshavardhan's empire. Most of them were killed in their fight against Huns.

This tells us one more thing. The renaissance will be propagated not by so called upper castes, but by the people who are collectively referred to as OBCs and BCs. This is the real Hindu strength of India, not kshatriya castes. And in modern India, the traditional Brahmin caste is increasingly growing non-social and indifferent towards India and her problems. Hence, even the intellectuals (most of them) who counsel the people will and should rise from BC, OBC, SC and ST category.

IMHO, this process will start with empowerment of rural India. Rural empowerment is the only way of breaking the big Islamic oil droplets into countless smaller droplets to facilitate digestion and assimilation. The droplets are comparatively smaller in South and West India.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Chironji,
One thing that strikes me about the Magadha angle : we can perhaps see it also the other way around that whenever Magadha failed to be imperialistic enough to keep control of the western regions that the whole of India eventually fell. This could be becuase of the economic importance of the lower Gangetic plains in historical times. In the pre Islamic roughly 1000 years before the first Arab raids, the Bihar, North Bengal, Assam valley sat over crucial land and sea-trade routes, into China and into the Indian Ocean. The Palas tried and did hold on during one particular ruler but subsequent generations could not repeat the performance. The Palas also apparently did allow Buddhist and Vaishanvite sects to flourish and take hold on large segments of the population. These ideologies might not have been the best of things to prepare for Islam. Like most other Indian states, they and their successors the Senas in the east also seem to have allowed Muslims to settle, trade and preach freely.

The "ethnic foriegners" you mention who settled in the west and later took up the cudgels of "kshatryia" indicates that perhaps a crucial component was not their remaining the "OBC/SC/SCT" of those times but their transformation and recognition as "forward castes". Just as the subdivisions are seen as a regressive and repressive social hierarchy by most quarters, they also served as dual edged sword as a reward and recognition mechanism - which empowered and used the abilities of sections crucial for the then current needs of the society. Social hierarchies will perhaps always remain and regrow even if we wish or legislate them away. But it is the rigidity and prevention of mobility that is the problem. It is not just about empowering "backward hierarchies" as they are, but a reassessment and recognition into a "forward category".
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Keshav »

Chrion wrote:The one mistake Marathas commit was to expand northwards without consolidating the Deccan completely. They defeated the Nizam of Hyderabad and Hyder Ali and Tipu of Srirangapattanam on many occasions, but did not eliminate them for completely. Had they eliminated the Muslim supremacy in South before thinking of expanding northwards, they would made a lasting empire. This needs to be avoided.
Airavat is the resident expert on Indian history and he has many articles about Shivaji and the Marathas of which he notices a couple faults.

1) No Maratha consolidation. Because most of their best warriors died early on, the Maratha tidal wave was due to the same tactics that saved the Hindus early on against Ghazni and Gauri - by having independent kingdoms, the invaders had to defeat each individual raja in detail before moving on.

After Shivaji, and partially due to Sambhaji and his immature leadership, fractures could be seen in the Maratha confederacy very early on.

2) The Marathas made no friends in North India. As can be seen readily in Third Battle of Panipat, the Marathas had subjugated even the illustrious Rajputs. In essence, although they preferred the Marathas to the Mughals, they became what they hated.
brihaspati wrote:Social hierarchies will perhaps always remain and regrow even if we wish or legislate them away. But it is the rigidity and prevention of mobility that is the problem. It is not just about empowering "backward hierarchies" as they are, but a reassessment and recognition into a "forward category".
In the future, I have a feeling we'll see ethnic heirarchies rather than the pseudo-religious caste system. Even now, we see that Brahmins or any forward caste are not powerful simply because they are at the top of a theoretical ancient heirarchy, rather, it differs based on the state. Tamil Brahmins, for example, probably have a harder time than Brahmins elsewhere.

It will be primarily jati, and not varna that defines the future "caste system", not religion. With people like Karunaidhi and Raj Thackeray, we see the hardening of ethnic lines without respect to the Indian "nation". I suppose I should say that although you have written reams upon reams of information about Bharat as a nation, I respectfully disagree that any such entity ever existed. In that vein, I predict that separation based on state and the majority culture therein will be the basis of division in future India.
Last edited by Keshav on 01 Mar 2009 07:25, edited 1 time in total.
svinayak
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

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Keshav wrote: In that vein, I predict that separation based on state and the majority culture therein will be the basis of division in future India.
You should explain this in some detail.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Keshav »

Acharya wrote:
Keshav wrote: In that vein, I predict that separation based on state and the majority culture therein will be the basis of division in future India.
You should explain this in some detail.
I used more words than I should have. Each state will have its own majority culture and pride will arise from that. Each state will increasingly look out for itself if leaders such as Thackeray continue to gain support.

I am Gujarati, Punjabi, Bengali will take precedence over "I am Indian" if steps are not taken for national integration.
Atri
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Atri »

Keshav wrote:
Chrion wrote:The one mistake Marathas commit was to expand northwards without consolidating the Deccan completely. They defeated the Nizam of Hyderabad and Hyder Ali and Tipu of Srirangapattanam on many occasions, but did not eliminate them for completely. Had they eliminated the Muslim supremacy in South before thinking of expanding northwards, they would made a lasting empire. This needs to be avoided.
Airavat is the resident expert on Indian history and he has many articles about Shivaji and the Marathas of which he notices a couple faults.

1) No Maratha consolidation. Because most of their best warriors died early on, the Maratha tidal wave was due to the same tactics that saved the Hindus early on against Ghazni and Gauri - by having independent kingdoms, the invaders had to defeat each individual raja in detail before moving on.

After Shivaji, and partially due to Sambhaji and his immature leadership, fractures could be seen in the Maratha confederacy very early on.

2) The Marathas made no friends in North India. As can be seen readily in Third Battle of Panipat, the Marathas had subjugated even the illustrious Rajputs. In essence, although they preferred the Marathas to the Mughals, they became what they hated.
This may be off topic, but where does leadership Sambhaji come into picture? And how did you infer that his policies as a King were immature?

A young king of a small kingdom, against a seasoned champion with an elite army of 600,000. And in spite of these differences, Aurangjeb had to remove armies from Maratha territory and redeploy them against Adilshahis and Kutubshahis. Maratha territory and army doubled from 1681-1685. This is the test of Sambhaji which was passed very successfully. His capabilities as general and governor were thoroughly tested in those 9 years of his fight. He may have committed few follies in his youth when his father was alive and in charge. But, after Aurangjeb came in Deccan, his performance was more than satisfactory.

The second point is widely agreed by all people who know history. Marathas could not win friends due to their own behaviour. This mistake should be avoided.

There is difference between Raj Thackarey and Karunanidhi, although their actions are similar. The reasons of Raj to say what he says are purely economical. There are huge problems in Mumbai due to indiscriminate migrations. Raj will shut up as long as jobs are generated for Maharashtrians as well. Lot of Maharashtrians support him, at least verbally because the absence of job advertisements for vacancies in Maharashtria Railways in Marathi newspapers is a truth. Secondly, the Maratha identity is very closely linked with Hindu identity. Eventually, just like his uncle, he will have to come clean on his stance on Hindutva and his stance won't be different from his uncle's. Once he accepts that stance, his anti-North tirade will loose wind. Maharashtrian identity does not reject Hindu identity. On the contrary, people pride themselves as protectors of Hinduism. So, Raj gimmick won't last long. One good thing he might end up doing is uniting the Dalit vote with other votes, at least in urban Maharashtra.

Karunanidhi's reasons are racial and much more subtle. Although both must be discouraged, the problem of Raj is very easy to solve. Same is not the case with Karunanidhi. DMK openly believes in the outdated Aryan invasion theory and rejects the Hindu roots. Karunanidhi's version of Tamil identity view North Indians as ancient invaders who destroyed the dravidian culture in Indus Valley Civilization and Saraswati Civilization. Hence, in my opinion, Karunanidhi and his likes are greater danger to Indian integrity than Raj, who is a petty politician.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

The racial angle in India can be maintained, because ethnic groups are allowed to remain endogamous. Since the social racial divisions are advantageous for the elite leadership of these ethnicities, they do all they can to perpetuate this. Strict endogamy helps in maintaining anthropometric and linguistic externalities, the common basis of identity recognition in most humans. Increased marital and gene pool mixing removes this identifiability and weakens racial basis of excluisivity and political power. Increased educational levels and freer social contact among eleigible sections across ethnicities will go a long way towards undermining racial constructions.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

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Keshav wrote:
I used more words than I should have. Each state will have its own majority culture and pride will arise from that. Each state will increasingly look out for itself if leaders such as Thackeray continue to gain support.

I am Gujarati, Punjabi, Bengali will take precedence over "I am Indian" if steps are not taken for national integration.

The British also said the same thing 150 years ago.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

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We have to be more careful about the OBC/SC/ST background. Genetic evidence indicates the possibility that one of the early centres of division was probably in the south. Before roughly around 6000 YBP distinct caste groups appear to have come from the same gene pool. Strictly endogamous subdivisions that more or less has followed into more recent "caste" forms appear probably around this date. The same process of development of social hierarchies within same racial ethnic groups could have arisen in more recent history through war, displacement and migration. What we dub OBC/SC/ST could be modern reconstructions based on specific and particular historical events, and might be untraceable into the remote past. A formerly dominant or powerful "forward group" could have been dispossessed and pushed into more remote, less productive regions for survival and become the modern "backward". There are some studies that explore the role of the British in reconstructing social relations that were formerly more in the nature of mutual dependence into bonded/slave/upper-caste-dalit forms. Leadership can come from any level or subgroup of the society, but it will fail if it cannot transcend its subgroup origin and identity. Just as "Brahmin" leadership will fail if it remains solidly identified with "Brahminism", OBC leadership will equally fail if it remains solidly identified with "OBCism". The categories of OBC/SC/ST/Brahmin are artificial and cannot be part of the core of the future nation. The key is to create common targets to be achieved for all nationals, and support leadership who pledge such common targets. It is crucial to mount campaigns and patiently prepare psychological grounds for people to expect such common goals irrespective of regional, ethnic or other claimed subdivisions.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Keshav »

Acharya wrote:
Keshav wrote:
I used more words than I should have. Each state will have its own majority culture and pride will arise from that. Each state will increasingly look out for itself if leaders such as Thackeray continue to gain support.

I am Gujarati, Punjabi, Bengali will take precedence over "I am Indian" if steps are not taken for national integration.

The British also said the same thing 150 years ago.
The British said it because they wanted it to happen. I can't say the same for myself.

Just to make it clear, I don't think India is going to be splintering. People are far too apathetic and coming to terms with capitalism that they won't have time or the inclination to fight sustained guerilla warfare for an independent state. You need to a special kind of people for that (i.e. Palestinians).
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

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Keshav wrote:
The British said it because they wanted it to happen. I can't say the same for myself.

Just to make it clear, I don't think India is going to be splintering.
People are far too apathetic and coming to terms with capitalism that they won't have time or the inclination to fight sustained guerilla warfare for an independent state. You need to a special kind of people for that (i.e. Palestinians).
I suppose I should say that although you have written reams upon reams of information about Bharat as a nation, I respectfully disagree that any such entity ever existed.
This contradicts what you are replying to me.


It looks like you are new to this topic.
There is an essential unity of India which is ignored by the western intellectuals.
There are article on this which has been studied by the independence leaders and many people after that.
http://www.svabhinava.org/HinduCiviliza ... -frame.php
http://www.swaveda.com/articles.php?action=show&id=47

http://vepa.us/dir00/Indian%20identity.doc
http://adaniel.tripod.com/unorganized.htm
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2007/200705 ... /main7.htm
http://www.littleindia.com/news/142/ART ... 04-02.html

http://www.vedamsbooks.com/no31053.htm
The Fundamental Unity of India
By Radha Kumud Mookerji
Published by Orient Blackswan, 2004
ISBN 8180280055, 9788180280054
148 pages

There Is No Other Work As Influential As This Study Of The Idea Of India`S Unity Imbedded In The Classical Hindu Texts And Scriptures. As Opposed To The Colonial Notion That British Rule Had United Indai, This Book Argues That There Was An Inherent Unity In Indain Civilization As It Took Shape In Ancient India.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Keshav »

Acharya -
Thank you for the links, but I do not need to believe in a mythical united Bharat to believe in Indian unity. If such a thing every existed, it existed and exists among the common man and not the political elite who are consistently squabbling amongst themselves. Even Europe was only united by the idea of colonial pillaging having realized that they need not fight amongst themselves for resources when they could simply steal it from someone else. If it does not exist among the elite than it is not viable because the common man will always be swayed by an elite with political or oratorical power.

If Bharat exists culturally, then why does this thread exist at all? We are brainstorming ideas to unify India because it was not done by the British or us Indians. Not believing in Bharat and believing that the British united India are mutually exclusive ideas.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by svinayak »

Keshav wrote:
If Bharat exists culturally, then why does this thread exist at all? We are brainstorming ideas to unify India because it was not done by the British or us Indians. Not believing in Bharat and believing that the British united India are mutually exclusive ideas.
BR has been answering such questions for almost 10 years and you will also get your answers.
You are talking about political unity and those links talk about cultural unity of India which has been there for more than few millenia.

BTW there is no myth here regarding cultural unity.
Last edited by svinayak on 03 Mar 2009 05:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Abhi_G »

There needs to be a starting point in the unification of ideas. Ideas can be unified based on a commonality of achievable objectives for the people located in a particular geography. For Bharatvarsha such questions did arise in her ancient past where people found commonality of ideas based on their material, cultural and most importantly on their spiritual experiences. That found expression through music, dance, architecture etc. Since ancient times people of India have traveled from one part of the country to another and inspite of regional differences they have not felt culturally as foreigners. It is due to this sense of self that emperors who have fought against neighbouring kingdoms never destroyed the region's cultural themes most commonly expressed in the temples. In one instance, the Chola king after extending the boundaries of his kingdom until Orissa and Bengal performed worship and took the waters of the Ganga back to the south. Yes, one can say that Bharatvarsha has been united many times and broken many times. But the key question is why does this need, urge, feeling of unifying the country come back age after age in the form of sages, kings, freedom fighters? This definitely needs some thorough soul searching. Ultimately it is the love for this ancient land.

In the context of the twentieth century, creation of avenues for education, culture and wealth generation and improving our military capabilities are the topmost priority for the notion of Bharatvarsha to progress to the future. It is needless to say that the ancient emperors did take note of the military, cultural and material well being of their people who were Bharatiyas after all. If such hints, clues of an ancient Bharat exists then the elite should actually internalize these concepts and move forward. There are millions of reasons as to why many among the elite of today do not understand and it is a sheer waste of time and energy to understand why. Those who do understand have to perform their bit to achieve this strategic objective as a starting point.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

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Every time I started to try and find the commonality, I always landed up with "spirituality" and "philosophy" as the common denominator - since mere culture need not show all the commonality we want. There are numerous subdivisions that anyone who wants to undermine "unity" can pick up on - including art, literature and music. What however almost none are able to completely disparage or deny are the languages of "spiritual philosophy and practice" - certain common icons are mutually accepted, and certain world-views are similarly mutually accepted, even if they differ maybe in finer details. This led me to consider the possibility that the fundamental unity evolved over a basic common core world-view allowing for material-culture to drift and optimally adapt to the specific geo-temporal circumstances the subgroup faces. It wil be difficult to have a starting point without this "spiritual" unity.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

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Well I dont think the material culture is very different in different parts of India either, barring superficial differences. As some one who has lived in east, west north and south for nearly the same amount of time and overseas, I can testify that the material culture difference is not really that big a deal as is made out to be.

This is not something I believed in first but it is what I feel after my own little "discovery of India"
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Sanku »

Chiron wrote: The classical Kshatriyas of west died out long ago and were replaced by these new-Kshatriya people who actually delivered. The classical Kshatriyas of east and north grew worthless after Harshavardhan's empire. Most of them were killed in their fight against Huns.
Chiron, there are lot of allusions in your post which are misplaced, and (no offence meant) are more like the standard historical explanation of Socialist ideologues and pretend historians.

For example -- this winter I went through Marwar and Mewar, nearly every Royal family line there traced their roots back to further north when they moved under duress and much longer before that too.

The same is true for other clans, the Uttaranchal and Himachal areas were also dispossed ones.

This own cultural heritage of these clans is conveniently forgotten by the pseudo-historians who give a totally different spin to the same -- Airavat's blog also deals with these issues.

We all seem to be laboring under tons of manufactured differences imposed on us deliberately.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

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Sankuji,
My thoughts too, especially based on my travels in the North and the East. In fact there are more similarities when we delve deeper. Words, cultural icons, concepts suddenly stare at you out of nowehere and you recognize that this is something you have seen before somewhere distant in a slightly different form. Tried to write this before here about the fundamental unity I had felt all over at the grassroots level in India during my travels. But there could be areas I left out and felt some unease about linguistic "imperialism" :mrgreen: But I know I am treading on controversy here, for this fundamental thread of unity was mostly found among what we would term the "majority community".
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Sanku »

brihaspati wrote:But there could be areas I left out and felt some unease about linguistic "imperialism" :mrgreen: But I know I am treading on controversy here, for this fundamental thread of unity was mostly found among what we would term the "majority community".
Thanks for the support on this Bhrispatiji :-); I understand that a large country as India always struggles between the concepts of living within the framework for the whole and individual aspirations which some time tend to overshadow commonality. Of course this applies to your observations on unease w.r.t. language, but is actually at a fundamental level nothing but essential balance of forces between individual and society in general.

So India can be still very common while giving spaces for outward individual expressions. India has perfected this art -- there is not one at the cost of other.

This point is lost in a rigid -- with us or against us -- black and white based Greek/western culture -- who think of us a different.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Sankuji,
My essential point in this argument in this thread actually starts from this obfuscation. My point is that when thinking of the strategic future of our country and the subcontinent, we have to clarify, and identify a fundamental set of values, world view, and practice that serves as the foundation of our nation. While we strive for more homogeneity of purpose and values "within" on certain essential aspects (like certain fundamental rights where I do not include "religion" as the primary one) and allow "drift" or diversity where they should be as diverse and adaptable as possible (like food and dress) there is a necessity of specifying what we do not consider as belonging to "us" and not something which we would give a priority to preserve and retain.

While blurring of boundaries are unavoidable, but in the past this unawareness of "distinctions" weakened mobilizing power to defend what was worth defending, or preserving a core that would have defended more of what essentially defined "us" as "us". I am primarily meaning Abrahamic proselytizing ones - which leaves two of them.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Rudradev »

brihaspati wrote:Rudradevji, yes I think we discussed this awhile back. :)
But while agreeing with you about the possibility, I am now thinking that probably we will have to grapple with the same questions and methodology we have been discussing in several threads about IM. I am partly within the position of Shivji that "convincing" is possible, but I also feel additionally that we will need a tremendous amount of "pressure" and ruthlessness to wean them away from their current path.

Coming to think over it, I have the feeling that in fact similar methods will appear to be needed in both IM and ICOM, for probably the essential dynamics of both are very similar (not necessarily the same agenda), as the pscyhology and power relations are very similar. We have the ideologues at the top, who claim to be the arbitors of an ideology that can explain everything and provide guidance for everything. It poses a "devil" who has to be relentlessly fought. It poses continuous struggle, both ideological and military to replace existing state power. It divides society into two antagonistic classes primarily, and looks upon the state machinery as a repressive apparatus that should be used to impose the "new" ideology. It sees nothing wrong in the fusion of ideology, political power, and military power in the same core authority to which all must submit. It poses a small vanguard swelled mostly by selection rather than election.

I personally have already mentioned before that I mourn the loss of many youth whom I have seen being lost to this "cause" in the later '90s as a loss to Indian society as a whole. In one institution I could "recruit" 12 for the "moderates" out of a class of 48, whereas 2 went over to the "extreme". Had excellent relations with the latter until left all of it behind, and I would still give up all 12 to get those "two". Both "liquidated" as far as I know now. From many such "classes", I have a pretty good picture of what attracts them, and this is what agonizes me even years after. I would rather have the ICOM leadership and ideologues "liquidated", eliminated completely so that they cannot carry out their own traditional elite search for power behind the mask of ideological sophistry. I have seen the corruption, the ideological as well as material dishonesty in both moderate and extreme ICOM leadership - from very close quarters - and nothing good for the nation can come from them.

The weights that shopkeepers use for weighing get eroded by excessive use - and the sly shopkeeper uses that eroded weight to filch his buyer. The Indian communist ideology is like that eroded weight, which is used by the peddlers of communist dreams to filch from the lives of eager young Indians. Just like the IM theologians they have to be eliminated, exposed and destroyed first before you can think of weaning their followers.
Brihaspatiji, I think we're in broad agreement on the matter. However, in terms of approach, I do think there are a few different methodologies available (of which some may be more practical under the present circumstances than others).

It is from observing the nature of these organizations... Islamist, Communist, Evangelical, or any flavor of politico-ideological power structure in the Abrahamic tradition...that I arrive at this conclusion. I have come up with a set of (rude-looking) pictures to explain my model for such power structures in graphic terms, and present them for analysis and comment here. Hopefully it will communicate the idea better than words.

First, a brief explanation of the model as I've visualized it. It's three-dimensional, and so we need two orthographic (and mutually perpendicular) views to conceive its entire form.

Accordingly, in each of these images is a Projection (or top) view and an Elevation (or frontal/head-on) view of the power structure model.

Image

Intensity of colour represents the degree of ideological commitment. Thus in the above example of Indian Communist organizational structure, the deepest red is found in two places: in the Politburo or leadership, and in the fringe element of the Naxals. From the center going outwards, the deep red of maximum ideological commitment gradually fades to the white of indifference.

In the Projection view, in the top part of the diagram, the center represents the point of maximum investment in the status-quo... or its center-of-gravity. This is the point occupied by those parties who have the most to gain from the status quo remaining as it presently is, and the most to lose from its being disturbed. Thus, the supreme leadership (which I have labeled "Politburo" for convenience) resides in the center.

Radiating outwards, at decreasing levels of ideological commitment, are the groups which have a decreasing level of investment in the status quo. The senior party cadres, then the regular party workers.

Further out are the general public, consisting of the urban classes and rural masses. Of these, the urban classes may not share in communist ideology, but may still have made some investment in the status quo in the sense of "kharcha-pani" connections with party figures to facilitate their daily business. Furthest out are the rural masses, who couldn't care less about the ideology, and for whom one dispensation is as good or as bad as any other... hence their substantial distance from the status quo center-of-gravity.

Outside the rural masses are a ring of peripheral (or fringe) members, the Naxals, who are ideologically very strongly motivated... hence, deep red once again. However, they are very far from the center of gravity of the status quo. In fact, they have abandoned life within the system and organized with the sole motivation of changing the status quo. In this they may retain the backing of the center to some degree, or it may be that the center once backed them to achieve specific purpose and later abandoned them.

Now looking at the bottom part of the image, we see the Elevation (or frontal) view of the same structure. The heights of various elements here represent their level of authority in its hierarchy. As expected, looking at the center, the Politburo is on top; then the cadres, followed by regular workers, and finally the general public. The fringe members, or Naxals in this case, surround the hierarchy. To either side, at the very fringes, we see that their authority tails upwards until it equals or even exceeds that of the Politburo. This represents the autonomy from central authority which fringe actors eventually develop, the further they are from the status-quo center.

The second image represents the sort of challenge which I believe you are contemplating when you advocate mounting an assault on the ideology first, as here:
The Indian communist ideology is like that eroded weight, which is used by the peddlers of communist dreams to filch from the lives of eager young Indians. Just like the IM theologians they have to be eliminated, exposed and destroyed first before you can think of weaning their followers.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from your phrasing it appears as if you favour something like this:

Image

A direct, frontal assault that penetrates all the way to the ideological core and leadership of Indian Communism, ensconced at the center of its status-quo structure, decapitating the credibility (or more) of those at the very top of its hierarchy.

Certainly that's one way to do it, and it may work. However, it's a process very demanding of organizational energy, coordination and so on. The problem with such frontal assaults, historically, has been the resilience of the target... the energy of the attack is often dissipated long before one penetrates or even arrives at the target's core, because it is absorbed by various peripheral rings/hierarchical tiers along the way in. Many times in history, various Abrahamic ideological power structures have attempted to mount these sorts of attacks on each other. While they succeeded in some instances, as with the Spanish Reconquista, they more often failed, as with the Crusades.

Even if the assault finds its way to its intended mark, the associated energy cost is often so great that no energy is left to reshape and reconstruct the decapitated structure in a desirable form. America's regime change in Iraq, and the aftermath, would be the most relevant example of this in recent times.

I propose that there is another way. It is the manner in which rural activists such as Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati have been able to influence Communist power structures, at the fringes, by operating on a grass-roots level at the same peripheral zones inhabited by the Naxals themselves. In fact, it targets the fringes as opposed to the center. As a method it is not dissimilar to those employed by Gandhiji when turning the freedom struggle into a mass movement.

I've attempted to illustrate it like this:

Image

We see a grass-roots challenge by workers seeking to effect social transformation at the same level, and often in the same theatres where the Naxals are active. The Naxals are ideologically motivated, and yet very distant from the centre-of-gravity of the Communist ideological power structure, by virtue of having rejected the status quo. They are also autonomous of that power structure's hierarchy by virtue of having established an existence outside the system. Both these features make them vulnerable to transformation, at a micro-level, by grass-roots workers of a competing ideology working in the same theatres. Not only this, but the Naxals' own commitment to placing ideological principles above status-quo comforts would make them far more effective amplifiers of a new, transformative ideology than the mere general public (who are relatively indifferent to ideology of any kind).

In the above illustration I've labeled the transformed section of Naxals as "M2", in reference to the group of Hindu Naxals who split away from the Orissa Dalams in retaliation against the missionary-sponsored assassination of Swami Laxmanananda. I believe that this is an experiment that can, and perhaps is, being replicated at various regions throughout the "red corridor".

Ultimately, the grass-roots level challenge should lead to an outward-in transformation of the communist power structure, eroding the hierarchy that the top echelons of the leadership stand upon. The very rings and tiers that insulate them against a frontal assault would be leached away by the competing ideology, and precipitate their collapse.

It should be noted that the grass-roots challengers themselves, while functioning at the level of the fringe periphery, would not themselves be vulnerable to the same sort of ideological plasticity as the Naxals coming under their influence. That's because of the fundamental differences between the nature of Abrahamic ideological power structures (such as Communism), and Indic ones such as those represented by "ghar-wapasi" activists .

It is my belief that the essential fluidity and pluripotency of Indic power structures, paradoxically, provides an immunity from ideological erosion that applies to the fringes as much as to the core... quite in contrast the ossified rigidity of Abrahamic orthodoxies. But more on that some other time!

Finally, to address your observation about the similar dynamics of Indian Communist and Islamist power structures. You're certainly correct in saying that there are basic similarities. In the next illustration I've represented the same three-dimensional model as applied to an Islamic power structure, Pakistan (though with changes in the identity of specific elements and a few allowances for environmental differences, you could very well apply it to Indian Islamists as well).

Image

As expected, the Pak Army/ ISI occupy the central region in the Status Quo projection (with maximum investment in maintaining status quo), and the topmost position in the Hierarchy elevation. Around and below them are Sarkari Tanzeems, Sarkari Taliban (like the Mullah Omars and Haqqanis), and the general public of Urban Classes and Rural Masses.

At the fringes are a classic example of peripheral ideologues... the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan. Created by the center at first to fufill a function (achieving Afghan strategic depth) on the periphery of the system, they were motivated by an ideology so intense that it inspired them to eschew the status-quo in favour of living on the fringes and fighting a jihad. However, they were eventually abandoned by the center and have now assumed a substantial degree of autonomy. Many purist jihadis, ultimately, end up in that fringe circle... Osama Bin Laden and "Al Qaeda" would occupy the fringe circle in a diagram where the KSA establishment occupies the center.

However, to your observation that the same methods could be employed against the Communists and the Islamists... I don't believe it will be as easy to apply a "grass-roots undermining" approach to the Islamists as with the "M2-ization" of the Naxals. This is largely because the Islamist power structures have been "threatened" by such peripheral erosion, numerous times over the millenium of their Indian experience... and have therefore evolved mechanisms to counter it.

Here is a final illustration to demonstrate this, in the Pakistan example.

Image

Throughout the largely-white space of "general public" indifference, are interspersed multiple local centers of ideological nucleation (the green circles marked "M"). These represent various decentralized institutions like Madrassahs, Islamist social-activism bodies, local mosques and so on. Their purpose is two fold. First, they keep the general public constantly under the influence of Islamist ideology despite their relative lack of investment in the status quo, serving as a means to quickly motivated the masses with the idea that "Islam is under attack". Second, they act as buffers for the defense of the ideological power structure against peripheral erosion as we've seen in the Naxal/M2 instance. It is the development of such centers of ideological nucleation that kept Islamism alive as a political force in the subcontinent despite the Indic resurgence of 1650 onwards. But this development comes at a price to the system.

The danger posed by the existence of these centers of nucleation to the organizational power structure itself, is seen in the "Elevation" part of this last diagram. Being imbued with divine authority, these institutions... Madrassas, Tanzeems or whatever... rise to claim the highest convenient position in any temporal hierarchy. Because of this tendency, there is a risk that some of them may become powerful enough to erode the authority of the central leadership itself. This may explain what we saw in the Lal Masjid incident where LM jihadis were challenging the authority of the Musharraf government directly.

JMT.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by ramana »

RD very good effort at conceptualizing the problem. However TSP's and TSPA core strength are Pakjabis who are hisotrically amenable to force. So draw out the TSPA and defeat it and see all those circles of power wither away. Pakjabis are suceptable to force and dominance. They Gubo or kowtow to superior force. Always.


The big problem is convincing the US that this is in its interests(as the three musketeers convinced the Cardinal that getting rid of Milady was in his interest). The unfortunate thing is the Indian elite is not sure of what its interests are and hence the hiatus. OTH the three musketeers presented a fait accompli. So may be execute the TSPA and produce info of their perfidy?
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Rudradevji,
an excellent visualization. I think I should have clarified my points a bit more. First when I talked of "similar methods" I meant ICOM and IM only, within Indian state framework. TSP is a different ballgame definitely.

There is a crucial aspect that your model perhaps should explicitly build in - that is how far each of those structures are also part of state power where they operate. The crucial difference you note between TSP and the ICOM structures are actually differences in the degree of control over state machinery. This is why, you can acknowledge the possibility of why the Naxalites are more vulnerable to the grassroots tactic you are proposing - the Naxalite vulnerability is because the Naxalites are out of state power, and they cannot use the state machinery as an instrument of coercion and adherence. Thus they have to compete with others for support from the "masses" only. The PB you mention, on the other hand has partly integrated with the state machinery in more senses than one.

In the case of PB, I think we have to be very careful. I have tried to hint that the official ICOM groups could all have been infiltrated at the topmost levels, both by internal and external agencies. I have written here before, what I think is the essential dynamics within the "party", and I think it is at that phase where the structure has almost completely replaced all its committed ideologues with mostly opportunists. It will be most difficult to wean away the peripheral rings of the structure. If you read my post about "COMS" before, you will see why I explain the process by which only leadership at lower level completely dependent for their position and power within the structure is created. Such periphery cannot be weaned away because they are conscious of their dependence. So it is the core needed to be destroyed here.

Anyway, practically speaking, I have always supported targeting the "support" for weaning and winning over - while targeting the leadership for isolation and liquidation. As a tactical implementation, it is worthwhile to think of flanking moves to destroy possible "bases" into which the structure could "retreat" before going to liquidate the main centre. In the military sense, the Crusades could have targeted
Egypt first, and expand into Anatolia first before even giving hints of moving on to Jerusalem -(but of course political necessity of mobilizatuon factors dictated o.w.). The crusdades might just indeed have succeeded if Richard could wait a little longer
forgetting his throne back in England. In the political sense, I think its easy to guess what "Egypt" or "Anatolia" can be in Indian politics.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Enticing the TSP to attack, after full preparations from IA side could be a longe term strategy. But preparations have to be made to strike into PRC occupied areas simultaneously and if possible establish an independent gov of Tibet simultaneously. Now what LOI will be prepared to do this?
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by shiv »

Rudradev wrote:
Image
Rudradev - I suspect that each of those green "M"s would deveop a structure exactly like the macro-structure you have described - leading to multiple nations/power centers within the nation of Islam.

You will get many small disc-mounds rather than one disc-mound.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Multiple discs within TSP will provide a very flexible and robust leadership structure. They can band together to save themselves from external threats - more potent perhaps because they recognize commonality between these different centres. And destroying them will be like destroying isolated forts one by one in a painstaking move. On their own they can do some "turf war" but coordinate as well to expand or make war on the Quafir.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Rudradevji and Shivji's comments about the model sets me thinking. The peculiarity for TSP could be part of a more fundamental phenomenon over the subcontinent. It could have developed because of the absence of a single unifying state over very large periods of time, or because of the productivity of the land which could sustain numerous small groups independently of each other. The feature is the existence and formation of numerous small neuclei all agreeing on certain broad features of a philosophy but suitably modified to adapt to local/personal/particular experiences and needs (or a passive process similar to genetic drift in isolated populations). This could be a means of sustenance when unifying protecting superstate did not exist. But this at the same time, also insures, once it appears, that no unifying superstate can easily develop or even if it develops will have a hard time of maintaining itself. I guess we can see this sort of fractal recursion of ideological authority and centres of resistance/continuity in almost all the philosophies that have emerged/appeared on the subcontinental scene. This could have led the large "empires" to push for an unifying "ideology/religion/philosophy" to reset the paradigm. All the major "states" appear to have promoted one philosophy over others probably trying to overcome this ideological fractalism, which can create a drag and inertia to much needed change. We can also see that when they succeeded it was on the basis of a strong no-nonsense state and centralized army. This may be a worthwhile angle to explore to deal with question of multiple neuclei within TSP with the potential of regenerating the TSP structure even if TSP "fails".
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by shiv »

brihaspati wrote: But this at the same time, also insures, once it appears, that no unifying superstate can easily develop or even if it develops will have a hard time of maintaining itself.
Existing "state" models in history are of many types. I suspect that a constitutional democracy is the only state model that can unify this sort of group conditionally - by keeping military power at the central level ("no-nonsense state and centralized army")and devolving authority to the smaller centers.

This could possibly be the only reason why there is general consensus on democracy in India.

In Pakistan, there is some consensus on democracy - but it is in a battle to the death with feudalism and Islam. Democracy has never actually existed after British times. Islam makes it dangerous for any Muslim opponent, and an Islamic opponent can only survive in a parallel disc-mound structure. the "Unifying force" of Islam had a name - Mohammad". After he died there has been none and seeing how Muslims through history have continuously raped the definition of Islamic government to mean dictatorship or rapine expansionism (even as they claimed it was inherently democratic) there is no chance of any "islamic consensus" to develop within Islam. Islamic consensus is possible within democracy held in place by a "no-nonsense state and centralized army.".

What I really hate about the whiners and howlers of this forum who claim that Islam cannot be bent is that they are unable to go beyond that thought and see that Islam has been bent from outside pressure and can be bent and that is the only way peace will come to Islam and the rest of the world (peace be upon all of us). The caterwauls that change is not possible are an irritating waste of time and is a form of blind Islam worship.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Shivji,

I think the reason behind the whine is a kind of self-censorship, where a non-Muslim dares not think of the specific political and "coercive" aspects required to modernize "Islam", for such methods need a whole new paradigm of political attitudes that has been made to appear incompatible with "democracy". Democracy does not mean popular will of the majority cannot converge to take critical, painful, and uncompromising decisions. The problem is that leadership has not yet appeared with sufficient conviction that is convincing tenough o draw popular will.

The debate with which I started my journey "out" of "politics" was exactly on this point. It is so ironic for me, that I am still chewing on and arriving at the same wall. Compromise appears to be attractive and successful as a strategy, not only for India but almost for all "normal" times in human history. Problem is, "uncompromising positions" are also spectacularly successful when society comes to the point when it thinks "enough is enough" and only for that brief time window in "history" non-compromising positions are welcomed. By getting used to saying "yes" to everything, all the time, we forget the importance of saying "no".
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

The BJP appears to be struggling with its regional allies. This tendency of increasing regional self-assertion has been increasing right from the days of JLN. The early days of the post-Independence political scenario was a case of apparent absolute dominance by the Congress, probably because of two factors - a lot of "new" territory, the "princely" states had come in, whose erstwhile regimes quickly capitulated or joined the Congress bandwagon, and secondly, the troublesome provinces of Punjab and Bengal were licking their wounds of Partition and simply too engrossed in survival. The south had always had a complex relationship with the Congress brand of politics, modified by regional and ethnic identity claims sometimes probably based on colonial reconstructions of south Indian pre-historic identities.

Regional self-assertion opposed to subsumption of differences for the sake national common interests, gain strength from two factors - the ability of the local elite to represent to their regional support base that only their regional priorities are worth fighting for as "others" are after all "others" for whom there is no commitment or responsibility. The second factor is closely related to the first, in that if the elite can succefully represnt to their regional supporters that "other" regions have already done this and benefited, and the so-called "national elite" are after all representatives of particular regions who have used "nationalism" to extract surplus from the rest of the regions to invest and develop their original "homelands". By doing this the regional elite are actually ensuring their own share of power and resources from within the national framework.

What is the way out? The main concerns of the population are basic necessities of life and certain social assurances. Land reforms and industrialization with equal stress on the "small" and "large", infrastructure development and basic social welfare, should be given as the agenda uniformly for all areas. But in return, we should be able to demand that people collaborate and participate, which can mean initial pains of readjustment. No one can live off the other for long without at some point having to suffer the consequences. Anyone who obstructs these necessary socio-economic transitions from shortsightedness should be clearly and peremptorily told that the consequences will have to be faced by their descendants if they do not cooperate now. But the time may be fast approaching when such dialogue will have to be started directly with the people, bypassing ruling sub-interests.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Rahul Mehta »

brihaspati wrote:Multiple discs within TSP will provide a very flexible and robust leadership structure. They can band together to save themselves from external threats - more potent perhaps because they recognize commonality between these different centres. And destroying them will be like destroying isolated forts one by one in a painstaking move. On their own they can do some "turf war" but coordinate as well to expand or make war on the Quafir.
The problem with TSP and ALL islamic countries is poor science and engineering, and so poor weapon manufacturing capabilities. They are depending on weapons from China, Russia etc and pay using oil money. Once US captures or disables oil wells in Iran, the money supply from Saud to Islamists will also stop. Islamist will become sitting dodoes and will be exitinct within years. I cant say when US will total control or total Iran oil well, but that would be within 5 years. And within 2 years after Iran is totalled, Islamist will become extinct.

------
brihaspati wrote:What is the way out?

1. The main concerns of the population are basic necessities of life and certain social assurances.

2. Land reforms and industrialization with equal stress on the "small" and "large", infrastructure development and basic social welfare, should be given as the agenda uniformly for all areas.

3. But in return, we should be able to demand that people collaborate and participate, which can mean initial pains of readjustment. No one can live off the other for long without at some point having to suffer the consequences.

4. Anyone who obstructs these necessary socio-economic transitions from shortsightedness should be clearly and peremptorily told that the consequences will have to be faced by their descendants if they do not cooperate now. But the time may be fast approaching when such dialogue will have to be started directly with the people, bypassing ruling sub-interests.
1. Agree.

2. I am not sure if LR (LR = Land Reforms) are something most BRites agree with. I support LR, but IIRC most dont. You might want to do a poll to know how many BRites support LR

3. What is "we". What is the approx numerical strength of "we" in India?

4. Will telling make any difference? And what has stopped "we" from directly starting dialogs with "people"?

.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Rahul Mehta wrote

I am not sure if LR (LR = Land Reforms) are something most BRites agree with. I support LR, but IIRC most dont. You might want to do a poll to know how many BRites support LR
I guess I touched casually on a topic of controversy. I did not mean full "communist style" "takeover of land without compensation". This is land reform "with optimum efficiency of use" as aim. Therefore it equally aims for right to have access to productive land for the farmer, and change of land use pattern for industrialization if necessary. If someone with huge landholding is reluctanct to give more access to productive resources to those who have none at all, should realize that this can ultimately lead to a situation where they themselves may find no land under their control. It is better to share it before it goes to that stage, and that all side s have to give up something. Land reforms will be less of a problem in areas not seen as hugely productive, and a huge one where agriculture is lucrative. Groups which refuse to cooperate in "lucrative" areas, should also then accept that corresponding indiustrialization and urbanization or infrastructure investments will not be made. At the same time, this is a delicate operation as ultimately more concessiosn have to be given to the "productive farmer" to ensure food security.

Some ideas about community land trust models could perhaps be explored. I had the impression that Rahulji hails from or has connections/experience about Gujarat - apologies if I am mistaken. It is quite problematic nowadays to have proper data about Gujarat, and even on these forum threads I can sense the hesitation simply because of the propaganda and myths surrounding individuals. But I was quite interested in at least one aspect of apparent aims of the current regime there - because it coincides with a personal theoretical interest - of agrarian-industrial selfsufficient settlements, self-sufficient ecocities that can actually solve the problem of "eviction" or fear of "loss of livelihood".
3. What is "we". What is the approx numerical strength of "we" in India?
Not many, but at least after writing this it appears that the number is greater than or equal to two. :D I wrote "we" without thinking, as for me, such thoughts are meant to be collective thoughts and shared by many. Discussing practical implementation perhaps will be walking on the razor's edge of "politics" - banned fro this forum.
4. Will telling make any difference? And what has stopped "we" from directly starting dialogs with "people"?
Rahulji, you have already taken a direct initiative, and I applaud your attempt. I do not know whether you are part of a bigger coordinated effort. But coordinated effort that makes it a point to be visible publicly and gives conditional support or comes to understanding with established political forces strictly on the basis of the agenda, could make its presence felt for the next round of elections. But I do not know whether you have the support of at least some print media of your own, and other PR machinery., etc.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Rahul Mehta »

Rahul Mehta :I am not sure if LR (LR = Land Reforms) are something most BRites agree with. I support LR, but IIRC most dont. You might want to do a poll to know how many BRites support LR

Brihaspati: I guess I touched casually on a topic of controversy. I did not mean full "communist style" "takeover of land without compensation". This is land reform "with optimum efficiency of use" as aim. Therefore it equally aims for right to have access to productive land for the farmer, and change of land use pattern for industrialization if necessary. If someone with huge landholding is reluctanct to give more access to productive resources to those who have none at all, should realize that this can ultimately lead to a situation where they themselves may find no land under their control. It is better to share it before it goes to that stage, and that all sides have to give up something. Land reforms will be less of a problem in areas not seen as hugely productive, and a huge one where agriculture is lucrative. Groups which refuse to cooperate in "lucrative" areas, should also then accept that corresponding indiustrialization and urbanization or infrastructure investments will not be made. At the same time, this is a delicate operation as ultimately more concessiosn have to be given to the "productive farmer" to ensure food security.
I have highlighted a statement. IMO, of the top 100k rich people in India, about 999900 would call you a leftist for making such a threatening statement. In top 100k of India, you will find no more than 100 supporters but they will cow down as they dont want wrath of remaining 999900 for agreeing with your statement. And of the top 1cr people in India, only 200k would agree with you and they are scattered all over India and so hard to reach.

On the issue of LR (LR = Land Reforms), it may possible to create a "policy declaration draft" that would please all, but when it comes to implementation, we need DRAFTS of EN (EN = executive notifications) and legislations. Till date, I have not been able to find or make a EN/Legislation draft that would please all and be effective at the same time. I have made some drafts and I they surely dont please all.
Some ideas about community land trust models could perhaps be explored. I had the impression that Rahulji hails from or has connections/experience about Gujarat - apologies if I am mistaken. It is quite problematic nowadays to have proper data about Gujarat, and even on these forum threads I can sense the hesitation simply because of the propaganda and myths surrounding individuals. But I was quite interested in at least one aspect of apparent aims of the current regime there - because it coincides with a personal theoretical interest - of agrarian-industrial self sufficient settlements, self-sufficient ecocities that can actually solve the problem of "eviction" or fear of "loss of livelihood".
I am from Ahmedabad, Gujarat. The land ownership data all over India in poor shape as

1. Huge amount of lands is owned by Trusts and name of the trustees are known, but there is not central database of land holdings of trusts and trustees' names

2. Huge amount of lands is owned by companies, and name of the company owners are known or unknown, and there is not central database of land holdings of companies and owners' names. Plus many companies are owned by companies and owners of these holding companies are unknown. eg DLF has huge amount of lands, and some companies based in Mauritius owns a chunk in DLF. Rumor mill says that neta etc own these companies and no one can verify that for sure.

3. Many people have irrevocable power of attorney and it is not registered (hence not known) but valid.

IOW, we have landlords in India who own miles and miles of prime real estate lands, and we dont have their names. This mess is in Gujarat as well as whole of India. Given that Govt has not made any ownership data, we as individuals can either 1)accept status quo or 2)make speculations and demand new laws based on our speculations. I chose to do the latter.
Rahul Mehta: 3. What is "we"? What is the approx numerical strength of "we" in India?

Brihaspati: Not many, but at least after writing this it appears that the number is greater than or equal to two. :D I wrote "we" without thinking, as for me, such thoughts are meant to be collective thoughts and shared by many. Discussing practical implementation perhaps will be walking on the razor's edge of "politics" - banned fro this forum.
Well, "shared by many", but question is how many in top 100k of India? How many in top 1000k of India? And how many top 1cr of India? And how many in each percentile or decile?

I will write more on this topic in "Neta-babu-judges" thread.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Rahul Mehta wrote
Well, "shared by many", but question is how many in top 100k of India? How many in top 1000k of India? And how many top 1cr of India? And how many in each percentile or decile?
Rahulji,

The one thing that the top 100k has to realize is that, otherwise it would be quite problematic to liquidate leftist influence from India. If more livelihoods are threatened, eespecially during an uncertain future recession, even traditionally reluctanct marginal farmers or agricultural labourers can switch from apathy to support for extremist "land reforms". Moreover, typically corrupt land ownership and use patterns are always found to be inefficient. Concentration of land in the hands of the few, reduces the possibility of growth of the internal consumer market - especially in the absence of industrialization or growth in the export economy. This reduction of capacity or demand in the domestic market ultimately reduces capital growth, and therefore "hurts" interests of the top "100k".

The CLTM (community land trust models) can provide a means of gathering land into a cooperative ownership in the hands of people who otherwise would not be able to afford land on their own at all. It needs government and local authority support to be successful. There is a huge segment of middle level land-owners who do not use their land personally, and either rent out or let it lie unused. I think a new model of settlement itself should be explored - where people pool up their land and put it to use. If the infrastructure for thsi can be planned into this, so that the drifting out of "owners/users" for "education/job/health" is no longer necessary, it can have a long lasting impact.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Rudradev »

brihaspati wrote:There is a crucial aspect that your model perhaps should explicitly build in - that is how far each of those structures are also part of state power where they operate. The crucial difference you note between TSP and the ICOM structures are actually differences in the degree of control over state machinery. This is why, you can acknowledge the possibility of why the Naxalites are more vulnerable to the grassroots tactic you are proposing - the Naxalite vulnerability is because the Naxalites are out of state power, and they cannot use the state machinery as an instrument of coercion and adherence. Thus they have to compete with others for support from the "masses" only. The PB you mention, on the other hand has partly integrated with the state machinery in more senses than one.
Brihaspatiji,

Actually the model does, to a large extent, factor in state power (of a de-facto sort, which is arguably more relevant than titular control).

In the top (projection) view, the center represents the point of greatest investment in the status quo; hence it is occupied by those with the greatest amount of de facto power in the present dispensation (Politburo in case of ICOMs, TSPA/ISI in the case of TSP). To a large extent this correlates with state power... the PB controls state power in Kerala, WB and Tripura where ICOMs form the state government, for example. In Pakistan it doesn't correlate constitutionally with the de-jure state power (civilian government) but in real terms, the holder of this central position in the projection view is also the actor with the tightest grip on the levers of state power.

In the frontal (elevation) view, again, the actor at the top of the mound is the one who exercises the highest de-facto authority... which again, correlates with state power at least in the center of the structure. In agreement with your observation about Naxalites, they occupy the lowest position at the center of the elevation-view mound... they are "underground", with no state authority at all. However, at the fringes, their authority tails upwards to exceed even that of state power. This is because even though they exist and operate on the fringes of the status-quo society defined by the "state"...in their locality, they exercise almost complete de-facto authority (holding peoples' courts etc.)


shiv wrote:
Rudradev wrote:
Image
Rudradev - I suspect that each of those green "M"s would deveop a structure exactly like the macro-structure you have described - leading to multiple nations/power centers within the nation of Islam.

You will get many small disc-mounds rather than one disc-mound.
Shiv, at any one time there is probably only one mound, thanks to the inertial quality of the status-quo. However, you're very right in observing that each of the green "M"s has the latent capacity to develop an entirely new macro-structure ("disc-mound") on its own. That is one major part of their function... to ensure that, even though a specific structure of an Islamist state based on a particular status-quo set of equations may be destroyed, the emergence of fresh successor structures is almost immediately nucleated at various local sites, thereby ensuring the continuity of the ideology (Ummah) even following the demise of a state (Sultanate). This is how the Islamist character of the Delhi Sultanate survived in its offspring, and how Pakistan may yet survive in the successor-states it spawns even if we successfully ensure its destruction.

Think of it as a flatworm (phyllum Platyhelminthes). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planarian It is postulated that memory RNA allows a flatworm cut transversely in half, to generate into two entirely new flatworms... the tail end grows a new head, and the head end grows a new tail! The "M"s in my diagram, as centers of Islamist nucleation, serve in a similar capacity... directing the morphogenesis of new Islamist states from a parent that was chopped up.

It is also interesting to note that the kind of regeneration seen in flatworms does not happen as you go up the phylletic ladder. The more evolved and complex an organism, the less likely it can simply generate copies of itself if you cut it in half. In higher vertebrates, of course, it's impossible.

As an analogy, I wonder if this is why Islamist states remain deliberately atavistic, fundamentalist, and averse to re-interpretation or evolution. They don't want to become humans or birds or crocodiles because that sort of "regeneration" through dispersed memetic RNA may be difficult or impossible in societies and nations with a higher order of complexity. So they hug the HoKo tightly and forbid anyone to reinterpret it... ensuring that they remain flatworms. This allows the ideology to survive even despite the inevitable (given their behavior) demise of specific state structures which practice it.

Thus the Ms function as ideological templates for creation of whole child states from the fragments left behind by the demise of the parent state. They are nuclei of regeneration, and very importantly, repositories of the Islamic civilizational narrative. They are the reason why, 300 years after Shivaji there was still a large enough number of sufficiently motivated people to call for Pakistan.

The other function of the Ms, of course, is to buffer against the sort of peripheral erosion I've represented in my Communist diagram... whereby the Ghar-Wapasi VHP is able to pose a grass-roots challenge to the ideological commitment of the Naxals at the fringes of the power structure.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Rahul Mehta »

Rudradev wrote:Think of it as a flatworm (phyllum Platyhelminthes). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planarian It is postulated that memory RNA allows a flatworm cut transversely in half, to generate into two entirely new flatworms... .
RD,

But what if tapeworm gets no food, water etc? IOW, Islamists have so far gained some ground because of oil money and weapons they bought using oil money. And they have NOT been able to create weapon manufacturing factories and so are still living on imported weapons. Now how long will they get Petro money? Within 5 to 10 years, US will either devor or total every oil well in middle east. After that, Islamists will be starving for food and water, forget guns and bullets.

I request EVERY BRites to watch the movie "The Lion of The Dessert" at least 3 times. Here is piratebay torrent link http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4765001 . And here is imdb link for that movie http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081059 . The movie shows how Omar Mukhtar fought against Italians in 1930s and eventually lost. He was fighting using weapons from British in Egypt. Once Italians made a fence along the Egypt/Libya border, Omar and his troops ran out of bullets and lost. The Americans will use a similar strategy. They will torch every inch of Iran and grab every oil well in Saud/Iraq. So Islamists will stop getting petro money. And Americans will cut deal with China and so China will stop giving weapons to Islamists. So Islamists will have no option but to fight using Satya, Ahmisa, Charkha, Candle and Nail Cutters, like Gandhians. And then islamists will lose big time.

The islamists have been surviving only because US has still not resorted to total carpet bombing and imprisoning every young man, burning every farm, poisoning every well etc (which is what Italians did in 1930s in Libya and Italians won). Thats because such an action would make Muslims including Sunnies all over world rally behind Iran and in such case, Iran can become a strong force. But once Iran is totalled and every sqmm is torched, US does not need to fear about feelings of Muslims all over world. So it will maim or imprison every Islamist young man, poison every well, torch every farm and then islamists will lose.

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It is also interesting to note that the kind of regeneration seen in flatworms does not happen as you go up the phylletic ladder. The more evolved and complex an organism, the less likely it can simply generate copies of itself if you cut it in half. In higher vertebrates, of course, it's impossible.

But more evolved society is capable of regenerating itself. eg Europeans went to North and South America in 1600s and created a parallel Europe in South and North America. Much of the US is parallel UK/Germany. Canada is parallel UK and France. Brazil is parallel Portugal and many countries in South America are parallel Spain. So while advanced organisms dont have regenerative capacities at individual levels, they have ability to create societies at social level.

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brihaspati wrote:
Rahul Mehta wrote
Well, "shared by many", but question is how many in top 100k of India? How many in top 1000k of India? And how many top 1cr of India? And how many in each percentile or decile?
Rahulji,

The one thing that the top 100k has to realize is that, otherwise it would be quite problematic to liquidate leftist influence from India. If more livelihoods are threatened, eespecially during an uncertain future recession, even traditionally reluctanct marginal farmers or agricultural labourers can switch from apathy to support for extremist "land reforms". Moreover, typically corrupt land ownership and use patterns are always found to be inefficient. Concentration of land in the hands of the few, reduces the possibility of growth of the internal consumer market - especially in the absence of industrialization or growth in the export economy. This reduction of capacity or demand in the domestic market ultimately reduces capital growth, and therefore "hurts" interests of the top "100k".

The CLTM (community land trust models) can provide a means of gathering land into a cooperative ownership in the hands of people who otherwise would not be able to afford land on their own at all. It needs government and local authority support to be successful. There is a huge segment of middle level land-owners who do not use their land personally, and either rent out or let it lie unused. I think a new model of settlement itself should be explored - where people pool up their land and put it to use. If the infrastructure for thsi can be planned into this, so that the drifting out of "owners/users" for "education/job/health" is no longer necessary, it can have a long lasting impact.

I have replied in Neta-babu-judge thread. IMO, we should discuss there, as the topic is more about Indian politics.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Rudradev »

Rahul Mehta wrote:RD,

But what if tapeworm gets no food, water etc?
RM,

Actually, a tapeworm that isn't getting food or water can still lay eggs (cysticerci) that lie dormant until favorable conditions develop again. In fact, even if the most violent medicine is applied and gets rid of all the adult tapeworms in the gut, some of the eggs may still survive and hatch a new generation when the time is right. Meanwhile, you can't administer violent medicine continuously without harming or even killing the host! That is the dilemma which Great $hitain and other nations find themselves facing today.
Rahul Mehta wrote:[
With due respect you're confusing two things with this example... reproduction and by regeneration. In terms of my analogy, what the Europeans did in their colonies for instance may be likened to reproduction... creating new societies which definitely have hereditary linkages to the parent ones, but are ultimately different organisms that follow different developmental paths, becoming less and less similar to the parents as time goes on. Reproduction, of course, is something that all living organisms, whether evolved or not, carry out by definition.

Regeneration is something else. For example... I, Rudradev, am capable of reproducing. I can have a son who is very much like me, and influence him to be like me at a young age, but in the end he will carry on along his own path of development and turn into a different person.

However, I, Rudradev, cannot regenerate! If you chop off my arm it will not grow back. If you cut me in half, each half will not become a new Rudradev!

To carry this analogy to the scale of societies and nations... evolved nations can found new colonies in their own image, but eventually the colonies will go their own way. If the parent nation tries too hard to maintain 100% control of the colony, it will eventually find that the costs of doing so (economic, social, political, military) exceed the rewards. Finally (as all European nations eventually did) it will have to let go of its colonies in order to stay competitive itself.

Islamist societies, on the other hand, can regenerate if destroyed... like flatworms. If you chop one Islamist nation in half, each half will contain enough ideological nuclei of regeneration that it will tend to develop into a successor state almost indistinguishable from the parent in ideological terms. We divided Pakistan into two parts in 1971, and what happened? Did Bangladesh become a lawful, secular, modern society? Or has it constantly been wracked by forces that relentlessly try to make it an ideological carbon copy of Pakistan? In effect, did dividing Pakistan eventually give us two Pakistans?

This is seen throughout history... when the Delhi Sultanate dissolved, its successor states were as Islamist in their outlook as the parent. It was the same when the Bahmani Sultanate fractured. It was the same when the Mughal empire fell to Maratha and Sikh onslaughts. All these very, very powerful and wealthy kingdoms could be defeated by stiff and determined Indic resistance and yet... eventually... the nuclei of ideological regeneration did their work among the fragments to produce more successors (very quickly, on the timescale of Indian history) that ensured the ideological continuity of subcontinental Islamism.

This suggests that the optimal solution to the Islamist menace may not, as seems intuitively obvious, lie in devastation of the state structure with Islamist ideological moorings. If we break Pakistan into five pieces we may be fighting five Pakistans ten years later... each as capable of terrorism, drug dealing, nuclear proliferation and all these herrowic things as the parent, and each as incapable of developing into a responsible and productive modern nation as the parent. Yes there may be some advantages in terms of playing off the successors against each other but that is marginal... remember Talikota if you think we can do that indefinitely.

The optimal solution may, in fact, be NOT to destroy the state structure... but to make sure its authority is constantly undermined and challenged on ideological grounds by those very same nuclei of Islamist regeneration. Maintain an equilibrium whereby the state of Pakistan, for example, is always being challenged by various Tanzeems, Madrassahs and so on for its inability to confirm to their ideological standards. Keep the nuclei of regeneration, constantly on the brink of uncontrolled proliferation, so that they become not calluses but cancers. Let the state structure and the nuclei exhaust themselves by continuously struggling with each other on the basis of who is more properly Islamist and more credible to lead the Ummah.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Prem »

RD, understand Indians made mistakes in dealing with jeehadis in past , if lessons are learned correctly then same mistakes wont be repeated again . I heard cockroaches can survive nooke war but they do die if you crush them.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Rudradev wrote
This is seen throughout history... when the Delhi Sultanate dissolved, its successor states were as Islamist in their outlook as the parent. It was the same when the Bahmani Sultanate fractured. It was the same when the Mughal empire fell to Maratha and Sikh onslaughts. All these very, very powerful and wealthy kingdoms could be defeated by stiff and determined Indic resistance and yet... eventually... the nuclei of ideological regeneration did their work among the fragments to produce more successors (very quickly, on the timescale of Indian history) that ensured the ideological continuity of subcontinental Islamism.
Agreed. But the same observation actually throws up a crucial historical failure on the part of "anti-Muslim" forces :they did not attempt or manage to destroy the basic apparatus of ideological regeneration. This is an insight that the Islamic invaders and regimes correctly used when they could overcome non-Muslims, for among other measures they systematically targeted the intellectuals and insititutions of education or cultural/ideological regenration (it is still part of basic Islamic strategy - they still do it whenever they have the chance such as in BD '71 or Kashmir and realizing how they themselves use this tactic they are so fanatically defensive of their own educational systems). This is the real lesson of history - Islamic culture/education/ideological apparatus has to be destroyed, completely, ruthlessly, and without any compunction whatsoever.
This suggests that the optimal solution to the Islamist menace may not, as seems intuitively obvious, lie in devastation of the state structure with Islamist ideological moorings. If we break Pakistan into five pieces we may be fighting five Pakistans ten years later... each as capable of terrorism, drug dealing, nuclear proliferation and all these herrowic things as the parent, and each as incapable of developing into a responsible and productive modern nation as the parent. Yes there may be some advantages in terms of playing off the successors against each other but that is marginal... remember Talikota if you think we can do that indefinitely.
Yes the key is the destruction of the regenerative ideological apparatus, and not merely the state apparatus. The destruction of the state apparatus is important only so far as to remove the protection afforded to the ideological regeneration apparatus.
The optimal solution may, in fact, be NOT to destroy the state structure... but to make sure its authority is constantly undermined and challenged on ideological grounds by those very same nuclei of Islamist regeneration. Maintain an equilibrium whereby the state of Pakistan, for example, is always being challenged by various Tanzeems, Madrassahs and so on for its inability to confirm to their ideological standards. Keep the nuclei of regeneration, constantly on the brink of uncontrolled proliferation, so that they become not calluses but cancers. Let the state structure and the nuclei exhaust themselves by continuously struggling with each other on the basis of who is more properly Islamist and more credible to lead the Ummah.
No, here I disagree. Similar struggles erupted soon after the demise of Muhammad. The early Caliphates and the successor regimes all led a merry dance of exactly what you describe. But you can see a slow steady expansion of the Islamic influence, and no infighting or contest for the "purest label" of the Ummah, stopped its inexorable crush on the non-Muslim. For, evenwhile infighting they always collaborated when it came to the enslavement or conversion. Their growth engine stopped because of the incompatibility of their world-view with complexity, and their paranoia and limited cultural intelligence destroyed the non-Muslim economies which they practically used as parasites. This in turn led to stagnation and weakening that made it vulnerable to determined European colonialism. We cannot afford to get our economies destroyed in order to weaken Islam now.
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Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by shiv »

People tend not to see what I am saying now - but we don't need to weaken Islam at all.

"Weakening Islam" is, with respect, the argument of a person who thinks Islam is strong. Strong implies unity and oneness of purpose. Islam is neither. The mindset of a people weakened by Islam continue to see Islam as strong.

Macaulay, sitting at the pinnacle of British power more than a century ago was as derisive of Islam and its body of knowledge as he was of the Hindu body of knowledge (read his speech!). While this hurts Hindus no end even today and on this forum - the same Hindu is unable to see Islam as the perfectly defeatable force that Macaulay and his ilk saw it.

Sometimes it is worth looking at what Muslims are saying. A whole lot of Muslims lament the state that Islam has got into. That is dismissed on here as taqiya. What we love to believe and swallow hook line and sinker is the fundamentalist bluster that claims that Islam is bludgeoning everything else and expanding. My reaction to that is "Balls. It is not"

But Hindus are a defeated people and cannot see weakness in Islam. The name itself evokes in the Hindu of a magically powerful force that somehow creates an undefeatable monster. And we spend reams and reams trying to "defeat" Islam without a glance at all the defeated Muslims who live among us - our attention being irresistibly drawn to those who still delude themselves that Islam has a global level future.

I think we need a change of focus and a better understanding. A mangy angry dog may have sharp teeth and appear dangerous - but it can hardly be described as the up and coming ruler of the world. The dog is angry because it is hungry, fearful and confused. We tend to eulogise and worship that mangy dog and imagine that the dog has mysterious forces that it will mobilise. This is an ancient hangover from a defeated Hindu past, because the Hindu too is a similar hungry, confused animal. May not be a dog - maybe a sheep. The Hindu need not be a sheep and worship the dog, Because the dog is not a dog and Hindus are not sheep. But we do not want to see the world any other way - that is the way we relate to it

I see the Hindu and Hindutvadis fearing everything in the world and barking (or perhaps bleating) with fear and suspicion at everyone like a formerly caged animal that has found itself out in the open. It sees its former captors around and imagines walls and defeat, not realising its own strength and freedom and the weakness of the other
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