Discussion on Indian Special Forces

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Raja Bose
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

kaangeya wrote: we had a Para veteran, a 50 year old major, who was taking classes for fun. This man although technically only a green belt was fearsome and scared the wazoo out of all the black belts.
A belt colour is just a technical designation....it is not necessarily an indication of that person's capabilities in unarmed combat or his capability to disable/kill somebody. Your para veteran may have technically been a green belt but rest assured he had a lot of army UAC experience under his belt than all those black belts hence, the intimidation. :mrgreen:
kaangeya
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by kaangeya »

A belt colour is just a technical designation....it is not necessarily an indication...
Certainly in terms of the fitness tests required at my dojo those days, which were very rigorous, the good major was way beyond anything the dojo could come up with. For a yellow qualification (the 1st coloured stage) one had to be able to demonstrate 20 pushups, 20 jumps (from squat to up in the air with legs folded and landing back squat), 30-40 stretches, apart from demonstrating 3-5 different types of kicks, blocks, and strikes correctly. The major I am sure must have been shaking in his gi at such a tough regimen :rotfl:
We also did a 3 km run every week, which I never once managed to do. It took me several years to begin work on my stamina and then it happened. For a guy who has been doing a route march with full combat load just for training and exercise this must have been laughable!

I have heard plenty of stories (never confirmed) of how no one dares to run a karate school in Belgaum because the locals would laugh if it were called a self-defence course, about how pickpockets and toughs magically disappear on Admin day, and I have actually seen these taklus in Belgaum up close (at an eatery that serves the best vada-pau, sabudana wada, misal, kanda-bata-poha in the world) and they look absolutely menacing, lean and mean with callouses and welts all over.
Raja Bose
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

about how pickpockets and toughs magically disappear on Admin day,....
Not to mention certain other persons also disappear that day including sadak chaap characters, roadside romeos and meter-rigging auto wallahs :mrgreen:
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by HariC »

Does anyone have the details of a para operation in 71 that blew up Pakistani artillery guns behind enemy lines?

this one in particular
The 9 Para Cdo saw action through a daring raid on a Pakistani gun position at Mandhol. This raid resulted in the destruction of six 122mm guns belonging to the Pakistan Army's 172 Independent Battery. Apart from the destruction of guns, ammunition and other vital equipment, the Pakistanis suffered 37 killed, 41 wounded and a great loss of face. This raid, launched at a crucial time which enabled the 25th Infantry Division to progress their operations on Daruchian (a Pakistani occupied post), won the 9 Para Cdo the Battle Honour of Mandhol.
Raja Bose
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

HariC wrote:Does anyone have the details of a para operation in 71 that blew up Pakistani artillery guns behind enemy lines?
Yeah this was the raid on Mandhol gun position led by Sawai Bhawani Singh (current Maharaja of Jaipur). He got the MVC for this action. Details on this raid can be found in the Indian Special Forces book written by an ex-para cdo CO....being of advanced age I forget both the name of the book and author though I have the book back in India and have corresponded with the author a few times :oops: .
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

Rajabose: IIRC, Bhawani Singh got the MVC for leading the raids on Chachro and Virwah as CO of 10 Para(Commando)
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

rohitvats wrote:Rajabose: IIRC, Bhawani Singh got the MVC for leading the raids on Chachro and Virwah as CO of 10 Para(Commando)
You are 400% right onlee. My bad :oops: (again excuse for advanced age :wink: ).
However in the meantime I managed to remember in a flash the name of book, I mentioned above. It's called "Killer Instinct", written by Maj. Gen OP Sabharwal (ex-Co 9 para cdo among other things). Book website is here. For those who haven't read it yet, it has a lot of details on Para Cdo missions including raid on Mandhol gun positions, some anecdotal tales of Kargil ops, Sudhir Kumar Walia's last op in Haphruda forests, Jasrotia's final op. etc.

From B-R's Para Cdo page:
Para Commandos had their first taste of combat in the 1971 Indo-Pak War where they performed gallantly. The 9 Para Cdo saw action through a daring raid on a Pakistani gun position at Mandhol. This raid resulted in the destruction of six 122mm guns belonging to the Pakistan Army's 172 Independent Battery. Apart from the destruction of guns, ammunition and other vital equipment, the Pakistanis suffered 37 killed, 41 wounded and a great loss of face. This raid, launched at a crucial time which enabled the 25th Infantry Division to progress their operations on Daruchian (a Pakistani occupied post), won the 9 Para Cdo the Battle Honour of Mandhol.

The 10 Para Cdo was baptised in combat with successful raids on enemy posts at Chachro and Virawah, under H.H. Maharaja Sawai Bhawani Singh Bahadur who won a Maha Vir Chakra for these daring raids.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

Chachro is still classified - not sure about the other raid.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

***Self Deleted***
Last edited by rohitvats on 02 Apr 2009 19:05, edited 1 time in total.
Surya
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

Rohit

Even the Scorpions magazine did nto give details how this deep raid was carried out. I have the whole scan with me.

If anything you posted is not from an official journal or published book - please delete it.

I asked them if there was any info that I could get and was told that barring the pictures of the men after their return and the general contours of the raid - it is still classified.

ie After action reports etc will not be available to the general public or even others.
Rishi
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Rishi »

X-posted

Image

Image

Are these normally operated by the IA or only SF? They had the word "Recce" written on them.

Also, note the Rod like structures they carry. Any idea what these are for?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by sum »

Where were these pics taken ,saar? (atleast which part of India, North, South, East, West if precise location is "classified" :wink: )
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by darshhan »

Gen Rayc sir,

Do our special forces have the capability to carry out covert operations in hostile urban areas(like any city in an enemy country) without being detected?

In my opinion they should be able to blend in the crowd as far as dress and language is concerned in order to carry out operations in a major hostile city such as rawalpindi.Do our special forces have such capability?

The reason why I am asking this question is because majority of enemy's military leadership as well as the kingpins of various terrorist organisations are likely to be located in cities.They will not be staying in deserts of Sindh or in the mountains of POK.If our special forces don't have this capability can they be classified as strategic assets?

Also in future majority of world's population including in India's vicinity will be living in cities(leading to more action in cities).

Ideally these operations should be conducted by country's external intelligence agency(raw) but the military special forces should also be having this capability.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

Its either what Sid just explained in pic thread or they are part of an Armoured/Mechanized Unit. They have Recce Troops mounted on Mahindra Jeeps (used to be Jongas earlier). Though I find strange that Signal Rovers carry Recce tag on them.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Singha »

under H.H. Maharaja Sawai Bhawani Singh Bahadur who won a Maha Vir Chakra for these daring raids.


I read somewhere (maybe BR) that he used his own funds to kit the boys up
with imported range rovers for LRDG type work. we need rich and hawkish patriots by the millions.

they were showing a gallantry medal ceremony by president on DD recently.
a Lt Col wearing the maroon beret was given a medal for a combined water
and land fight on logtak lake in manipur vs a band of extremists.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

Dont know about the land rovers part....havent heard/seen any reference to them in use but the Maharaja did spend considerable sums of his own money to kit his boys up. Truly an outstanding gentleman! 8)
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Airavat »

This is the Bharat-Rakshak page on the Chachro raid from a contemporary newspaper:

This raid was undertaken by the 10 Para Commando Battallion under the command of Lt Col His Highness Sawai Bhawani Singh of Jaipur. The Unit was based at Sarupkatala, south west of Barmer town and on the outbreak of hostilities infilitrated across to Pakistani lines on the night of December 5th.....

Each force was mounted on Jonga 4X4 Jeeps heavily equipped with MMGs and packed with supplies.....The raiding party came under fire on reaching the outskirts of Chachro, but by daylight the Commandos neutralised all the threats and cleared the enemy from Chachro. 17 Prisoners and a huge number of small arms were captured. As the day progressed, C Group returned to base along with the Prisoners. A Group proceeded to raid the town of Virawah. The move was undertaken in broad daylight in the desert.

MOD

During the 1971 Indo-Pak war, the unit, then designated as ‘10 Para Commando’, carried out a daring 80 km-deep raid inside Pakistan’s territory on the Indus Rangers HQ at Chachro (Sind). The battalion carried out many other vehicle-borne raids during the 1971 war.

For this unparalleled gallantry, the unit was awarded Battle Honour Chachro and Theatre Honour Sind. For his courageous leadership, military acumen and foresightedness, the CO of this daredevil unit was awarded Maha Vir Chakra. In adition, the unit also earned two Vir Chakra, three Sena Medals and one Mention-in Despatches.

BTW a Google search on "10 Para", Chachro has these two links above, but the number one search result is of this BRF thread!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

I don't know how many know this, but even the AMC officers who opt for being RMO (Regimental Medical Officer) with Para(SF) battalions have to undergo the 3 month probation period. So next time any one of you end up in Military Hoapital and see a doctor with Balidan Badge, you knwo what he has been upto. One of my dad's CO was an ex-Scorpion and used to outrun everyone even at his age during the BPTs. We even had a nephrologist moving around with a Balidan Badge and a stint with SFF no less
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

It used to be 5 months - sigh -
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

I had previously said
BTW I now have the details of what Chidambaram is doing - suffice to say this is just an adhoc measure to stave off public pressure by moving the few people we have around. So we are going to pull them from X and deploy them at Y.
Well now its public - the geniuses in the Govt have taken our scarce resources and moved them ad hoc ie. 2 Para (SF) has been moved to Bangalore.
No thoughts to what it will do 2 Paras ability to keep its edge on the missions it has. As it is the SF are overstretched and suffer from a lack of coherent policy on their development and usage. Now this. Between the idiots in the Govt and Generals in Para Regmt the SF is going to be pale shadow of itself.

Sigh
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

@Surya: How is the movement of 2 Para(SF) to Bangalore be impediment to their ability to maintain their cutting edge?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

rohit

Its like moving 10 Para to Bombay. Where will they train? Juhu beach?? CHowpatty??

or if 1 para is moved to chennai? They will have to fly to the Nilgiris to find somewhat similar terrain?

There were reasons the units had their base where they were.

Plus of course you are now stretching the SF thinner and taking more time away from their original roles.

As it is the overusage in CI roles has left them gasping for time to train and take other advanced courses.
Last edited by Surya on 06 Apr 2009 18:14, edited 1 time in total.
Rishi
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Rishi »

Bangalore has the Para regimental centre - so is it possible they have come there for a peace stint?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

Rishi

Shhh - don;t say that to a SF guy :)


Jokes aside I think you missed the news report that 2 SF has been moved to Bangalore as part of the anti terrorist hub.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by rohitvats »

Surya, given the geographical spread of our country and resources at hand, I do not think that geographical specialization is the way to go forward. The earlier paradigm of battalions being specialist in a particular terrain IIRC has been abandoned. If I take your argument forward, it means the Scorpions [10 Para(SF) for the uninitiated] cannot be used or aren't good enough to be used in Mountain and Jungle Terrain and 1 Para(SF) can't be deployed to desert and moutains. When we very well know this is not the case. The troops can be rotated for training purpose as they do even now.

If your concern is with respect to lack of in house facilities with in the regimental control, yes for that you'd need open enough space to base these units and associated infrastructure for day to day training.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by HariC »

taken off the link from the BR front page

http://indipepal.com/defence/blogger/Ma ... oudhary/41
The visionary founding fathers of the Special Group had already planned to locate one group of 119 officers and men (three teams and a group head quarter) from the Special Group in Mumbai, Calcutta, and Madras as far as back in 1983-84. Way back in 1983, I had personally carried out initial reccee of the areas where my men were to be located. The idea died its own death and got buried when the top heavy backward looking NSG head quarters was raised at Manesar.
the following links have some scathing (and sometimes undeserved) criticism of NSG Operations in Mumbai
http://indipepal.com/defence/blogger/Ma ... ary/41/537
http://indipepal.com/defence/blogger/Ma ... ary/41/541
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

Rohit

its purely a question of easily accessible training areas.

The SF guys are not specialized for one area (did not mean to imply that)

They all have capsules to go through.

10 Para was given as an example just as I am giving 1 para now.

Bangalore does not have the large , rough area needed for training.

eg. 1 Para guys run around the mountains in pitch dark nights for navigation training - where will they find that if they are moved to Chennai?? where they are located they have everything - mountains, water objects etc. for tough realistic practice
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by sum »


the following links have some scathing (and sometimes undeserved) criticism of NSG Operations in Mumbai
http://indipepal.com/defence/blogger/Ma ... ary/41/537
http://indipepal.com/defence/blogger/Ma ... ary/41/541
Isnt this the same Col. Choudary whose video about him training the Mumbai police commandos was posted in some thread a few days back?

(He does look really young in the B&W photo in the blog compared to the handlebar mustache old man in the video)

Added: Went through both links. The good col has really blasted the NSG left,right and center!!! :eek: :eek:
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Shameek »

^ Yes, it is the same person. He has pointed out a large number of inadequacies/problems/handicaps that the NSG is facing today. Could anyone validate his comments or are they to be taken at face value?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by kobe »

HariC wrote:taken off the link from the BR front page

http://indipepal.com/defence/blogger/Ma ... oudhary/41
The visionary founding fathers of the Special Group had already planned to locate one group of 119 officers and men (three teams and a group head quarter) from the Special Group in Mumbai, Calcutta, and Madras as far as back in 1983-84. Way back in 1983, I had personally carried out initial reccee of the areas where my men were to be located. The idea died its own death and got buried when the top heavy backward looking NSG head quarters was raised at Manesar.
the following links have some scathing (and sometimes undeserved) criticism of NSG Operations in Mumbai
http://indipepal.com/defence/blogger/Ma ... ary/41/537
http://indipepal.com/defence/blogger/Ma ... ary/41/541
Chaudhary's criticism seems fair on some points. But even if NSG had all the information, all the maps, and had they arrived earlier, there is no guarantee that NSG would have finished this up in less than 69 hours. World is just waking up to the fact that these coward terrorists new MO is to kill innocent civilians - just mow them down with bullets. Such incidents were never heard of. It shows how low the pakistan trained terrorists have become. Anyone can walk into a crowded metropolis and kill hundreds and thousands of people while playing hide and seek. NSG can certainly improve and learn the lessons. But if Mr. Chaudhary is implying that once NSG arrives, they should kill 10 terrorists within minutes in any situation is not realistic. I think NSG did a great job.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by hnair »

NSG fought with an urban infantry combat unit, not some random terrorists or hostage taker. the pakis and their vile handlers had highly focused training courses as well as elaborate command and control. There were people sitting in 'pindi, who were analyzing the situation and changing the tactics. So of course it took time. Plus the area is crowded with our people. it was not like NSG can aim a thermobaric Gustave into the Taj's lobby and hose down the walls later.

Every western security professional knows this scenario as their favorite nightmare. But their governments believe they can ward off the imminent attacks by paying off the pakis.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

Chaudhary does put forth some blunt words for the unit he helped co-found. With all due respect to him, if NSG had acted like Western units they would have waited, done intel gathering and mock rescue drills and what-not and we would have been left with a ten-fold increase in number of deaths. This was no hostage rescue situation, it was a plain and simple massacre. Given such a situation I dont see how the NSG could have acted different (except the points listed below). After one strips off the usual "we-used-to-do-it-better-onlee-during-our-time" rhetoric, he has some valid points but I do not find any of them new or something which hasn't been discussed to death here on B-R:

1) Lack of coordination for air transport (Perhaps NSG top brass might be to blame for not pushing hard enough, babus are ofcourse to blame).

2) Lack of media control at the sites (however do note that during ops like Akshardham and others,...there was no problem with media as the area of operation was walled-off/not easily accessible)....this media control issue is a larger problem than just NSG however, that being said they possibly need to include such crowd control guidelines in their doctrine so that those can be communicated to the local police/paramilitary for enforcement.

3) Lack of food, water etc. for troops in action (Very true, even during Akshardham one could see troops being handed packets of chips after having being in constant action for entire night).

4) Lack of some vital equipment for personnel (Very true with no solution in sight). He is right about tables being used during Akshardham...in fact there was a pic I remember which showed NSG personnel using a table to climb up get a PSG-1 rifle down from a parapet or something.

5) The constant off-the-cuff banterings to press by NSG chief, police chief, IN Admiral and so on. (Very valid gripe. Media saviness and control has always been a major shortcoming of ours!).

One thing which has not been discussed here nor mentioned by Chaudhary is what kind of medical supplies do the NSG troops carry on themselves? Even in Maj. Unnikrishnan's case they actually had to bring in ambulance stretcher bearers into the Taj, under fire in order to stabilize and evacuate him. My gut feeling is they carry little or no medical supplies and possibly face the same/worse situation as our other troops who lack things like QuickClot.
Last edited by Raja Bose on 07 Apr 2009 03:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

sum wrote: (He does look really young in the B&W photo in the blog compared to the handlebar mustache old man in the video)
Even in his old man with handlebar mustache avatar, he seems capable of kicking the butt of someone half his age :)
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Surya »

Raja

MP is also right on other things.

Like the timed drills for storming an aircraft, carrying recces of potential targets etc. They used to do that in his regime.

In fact he was severely critical of Akshardham.

The rot had set in long ago - and the blame goes to all the DGs, Major Generals and Brigadiers who have led it in the last few years. Equipment you can blame babus and politicians but preparation and professionalism - solely on the heads of the NSG.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

Surya,

I think they still do the aircraft drills coz everytime they have been called to do an aircraft assault (remember those 1-2 fake hijacking incidents which occurred in IGI?) they were not found wanting. The IC814 fiasco ofcourse had less to do with NSG training in itself but again more to do with lack of coordination with other agencies/personnel.

Absolutely 400% blame also goes on NSG big wigs.....NSG was raised with such high standards and hopes yet like all things it has been systematically degraded through lack of funding and equipment to become a mess. In terms of training of its men and their capabilities I dont think there is a degradation however other parts of the package (such as recce as you mentioned), coordination with other agencies, cross-training....these have not been looked at for ages. In the end it is all about the whole package not just specific capabilities. You can have a force of motivated, hard-as-nails, tough men who can shoot with the best but if you don't provide them required equipment in needed numbers, a coherent doctrine and other necessary facilities, their effectiveness will be as bad as the ordinary.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by sum »

Bangalore does not have the large , rough area needed for training.
IMO, would assume that a two hour drive in any direction from Bangalore will lead to huge swathes of rough terrained land....
I dont think outside of Bangalore city itself, there is too much population density and it is just like any normal Indian countryside (barren and deserted)
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Jagan »

.. and we were saying SF officers dont become generals

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/kn ... directlink

VrC, SC, Wound Medal, 71 War, Sri Lanka , Siachen and Kargil - we cant find a more bad ass than him!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Sree »

Jagan wrote:.. and we were saying SF officers dont become generals

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/kn ... directlink

VrC, SC, Wound Medal, 71 War, Sri Lanka , Siachen and Kargil - we cant find a more bad ass than him!
What a salad bar ... I mean, his Wound Medal is the last ribbon on the second row, fer Chrissake!! What a salad bar ... !!

Not to mention para wings, and combat diver badge ...

<Need an emoticon for Shaking-Head-In-Sheer-Admiration!!>
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Raja Bose »

His grandchildren will be the luckiest kids in the whole world...just think of the wonderful and true stories of his exploits they will get to hear!! 8)
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Re: Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Post by Jagan »

Contrary to what I thought earlier, Bharadwaj got his Vir Chakra as a 2nd Lt in the 1971 War. that must make him the last of the 71 war awardees to be still serving.

Sree, add the RR badge and another one that I cant really make out on the left pocket.

The general had since then added a PVSM to the begining of his medals.
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