Indian Space Program Discussion

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 22 Apr 2009 14:39

Astrosat to be launched by mid-2010

Excerpts. . .

The scientists have completed the developmental phase of complex science payloads and have just begun integrating them before delivery for the 1650 kg satellite.

"The big challenge was that of design of a satellite attitude control system that will enable accurate control of the pointing of the instruments towards a specific direction in the sky," scientists from TIFR told PTI. . . . it was decided that the delivery of the payload to ISRO satellite Centre will begin from the middle of this year and continue till early next year to enable the launch ASTROSAT in 2010 using ISRO workhorse PSLV. . . The Astrosat will be in an equatorial orbit with inclination of about 8 degrees or less. Two star trackers and gyros will be used for the pointing control of the satellite. Orbiting at 600 km above the earth's surface . . . Out of the five science payloads for this multi-wavelength satellite observatory, three X-ray instruments are developed by TIFR.

The Ultra-Violet Imaging Instrument has been developed jointly by Indian Institute of Astrophysics, Bangalore and Inter-university centre for astronomy and astrophysics, Pune with the involvement of TIFR.

The photon counting detectors of this instrument have been developed jointly by the Indian team and the Canadian Space Agency as a science collaboration. The fifth instrument namely X-ray Sky Monitor is being made by ISRO Satellite Centre and is in advanced stages of fabrication and assembly.

Astrosat will carry five instruments to observe exotic objects such as black holes, neutron stars, and active galaxies at a number of different wavelengths simultaneously, from the visible and ultraviolet band to energetic x-rays . . . Once begins orbiting in the sky, it is capable of gathering 420 gigabits of data every day that can be down loaded in 10 to 11 orbits visible at Tracking and Data receiving center of ISRO in Bangalore.

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 22 Apr 2009 16:11

anishns wrote:Does anyone know why RISAT-2 and ANUSAT are not trackable on
http://www.n2yo.com/

n2yo is not a official site to include all satellites.

It includes them after sometime after the launch. Sabar ka phal meetha hota hai. Wait for sometime.

( Incidentally let me bring out a bluff in my post of orbits above ---

You will not find the names RISAT-2 and ANUSAT in the diagram ... because I don't officially know ( yet ) which of the 2 objects is which )

There are 3 objects which entered space having following TLEs

2009-019A
1 34807U 09019A 09111.79981481 -.00000235 00000-0 00000+0 0 81
2 34807 41.1011 157.0827 0077304 0.8668 338.6504 15.19827736 267
2009-019B
1 34808U 09019B 09111.85770833 -.00000288 00000-0 00000+0 0 73
2 34808 41.2102 156.7288 0109688 17.1786 341.0813 15.29384952 271
2009-019C
1 34809U 09019C 09111.85555556 -.00000291 00000-0 00000+0 0 71
2 34809 41.2135 156.7372 0110981 17.4555 331.0153 15.29707279 285

One is the launcher and other two are the satellites. Logically A,B and C correspond to the sequence in which they entered the space.

Because they don't make much of difference in the orbital coverage pattern so the diagram is only representative of the area that will be covered.

When the clarity is there I will post the accurate diagram.

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 22 Apr 2009 16:16

Arun_S wrote: IIRC Israeli radar sat is also in similar orbital inclination. Any light bulb ideas is onlee an innocent coincidence !!

Ajay K · Post by **Ajay K** » 22 Apr 2009 17:03

A krish Post subject: Re: Indian Space Program DiscussionPosted: 20 Apr 2009 08:16 am

BRFite

Joined: 25 Nov 2008 03:13 pm
Posts: 207 Ajay K wrote:
Is it(RISAT-2?) in a Geo synchronous orbit? It needs to be parked on the LoC along Puki land border.
Atleast some relief to sniff out rats who slip in.
May be we need one just for BSF and IA dedicated on LoC along Puki border.

No. It's in LEO with 41 degree orbital inclination. Most spy satellites are in LEO.

My mistake, how can a PSLV park a sat in the Geo Synch orbit.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 22 Apr 2009 17:04

Ajay K wrote: My mistake, how can a PSLV park a sat in the Geo Synch orbit.

Why not... we sent the CY1 to the MOON on a PSLV, didn't we???

Its just that for most applications, the weight of the payload in Geo-orbit will probably be too small to do much good.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 22 Apr 2009 18:49

My mistake, how can a PSLV park a sat in the Geo Synch orbit

PSLV can surely park a sat on geo transfer orbit but not this time since the RISAT is not configured for high altitude imaging even at compromised resolution .For a 24 hour real time coverage we need a constellation of such sats whcih is happening in diffrent forms and sizes .RISAT will cover up a lacuna that is bad weather and night imaging capability of indian sats even if on a periodic basis . If I am not mistake the visit frequency should be some where between 4.5-5.5 days that is every 5 days roughly but since it has synthetic app radar with electronic beam steering capability the coverage pattern is some what broader .

saumitra_j · Post by **saumitra_j** » 22 Apr 2009 20:10

My mistake, how can a PSLV park a sat in the Geo Synch orbit.

IIRC, PSLV can put upto 1000KG in GTO - it has already put Kalpana 1 (METSAT) in GTO.
Here's the URL for more details.

The flight path of PSLV-C4 has been modified to inject the METSAT into a Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit of 250 km perigee (nearest point to Earth) and 36,000 km apogee (farthest point to Earth).

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 22 Apr 2009 23:51

Shankar wrote:My mistake, how can a PSLV park a sat in the Geo Synch orbit

PSLV can surely park a sat on geo transfer orbit but not this time since the RISAT is not configured for high altitude imaging even at compromised resolution .For a 24 hour real time coverage we need a constellation of such sats whcih is happening in diffrent forms and sizes.

Yup the surveillance and resolution of RISAT-2 is different from the bigger bird RISAT-1 that will be launched later this year.

For this inclination and altitude PSLV-XL is capable of injecting 2,700Kg in orbit. So multiple RISAT-2 class 300 Kg sats it can launch for bird watching round the clock.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 23 Apr 2009 00:00

Firstly, hearty congrats to ISRO !!

There is something interesting about the timelines though. If indeed the order was placed for TecSAR after 26/11, the entire process from order placement to launch has been an incredibly short 5 months!! Is it really possible to build, test and launch satellites within this short a timeframe - maybe the gurus can clarify?

Alternately, this satellite was already in the works in Israel (maybe for their own TecSAR replacement) and we decided to buy it. A 3rd possibility is that both India and Israel will co-use the satellite in a cost-sharing, intelligence-sharing mode (might be why Mr. Nair is tightlipped on the cost).

Of course all this is assuming that we bought the satellite off-the-shelf

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Apr 2009 01:18

Africa-India satellite gets a nod in Nigeria

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Apr 2009 01:18

Indian spy satellite can see number plates of cars

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Apr 2009 01:19

Israel helps India launch spy satellite

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 23 Apr 2009 01:21

I heard Brahma Chellaney on TV debunk the DDM claim that "India is a poor country and therefore should not be spending its money on satellites and launchers". I also heard him point out the only weakness of India's amazing space program - the payload capacity of its launch vehicles. I am sure that this has been discussed before therefore can some point me to the reason why our payloads are not higher. Does the dog-leg to avoid SL impact payload that severely? Or is it that to lift higher payloads Cryogenic engines are needed and that GSLV Mark III will address this (in 2009?).

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Apr 2009 01:26

UMLV (Unified Modular Launch Vehicle) with semi-cryo core stages

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 23 Apr 2009 02:02

Gerard wrote:Indian spy satellite can see number plates of cars

This sounds like DDM'itis. I cant imagine how a non-optical SAR radar satellite can "see" number plates. Even if it was an optical satellite (which it is not), with a 1m resolution, number plates cannot be recognized.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 23 Apr 2009 02:37

Prem Kumar wrote:Firstly, hearty congrats to ISRO !!

There is something interesting about the timelines though. If indeed the order was placed for TecSAR after 26/11, the entire process from order placement to launch has been an incredibly short 5 months!! Is it really possible to build, test and launch satellites within this short a timeframe - maybe the gurus can clarify?

Alternately, this satellite was already in the works in Israel (maybe for their own TecSAR replacement) and we decided to buy it. A 3rd possibility is that both India and Israel will co-use the satellite in a cost-sharing, intelligence-sharing mode (might be why Mr. Nair is tightlipped on the cost).

Of course all this is assuming that we bought the satellite off-the-shelf

Key tech satellites are often built in pairs, the second serves as a backup in case of launch failure and and if launch was good it also help troubleshooting the satellite in orbit, by experimenting on the exact replica that is hand in lab conditions. Due to high NRE, the cost of make one sat is almost same as making 2 to 3 sats. I will not surprised if Isreal had made 2 or more of the TECSAR, and had on shelf TECSAR units that was quickly sold to Yindians post 26/11, hence the short turnaround time.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 23 Apr 2009 02:43

Recall Apollo 13 rescue simulations of the fuel cells exploding in space and the Houston (we have problem) got a solution by replicating here (on earth) the problem faced in space and the resolution there after.
Ishtandard practice no?

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 23 Apr 2009 02:46

Gerard wrote:Africa-India satellite gets a nod in Nigeria

Good move.
The nigerians were mighty pissed off at the chinese after their much vaunted chinese built satellite failed soon after launch. This resulted in the nigerians cancelling oil exploration projects to the chinese, until the chinese relented by promising to launch a new satellite free of cost.

Nigeria is in a fluid state on this front, time for ISRO to move in.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 23 Apr 2009 02:47

Thanks Arun Saar.

Also, the fact that RISAT1 is still not ready, will weigh much more and have a lower resolution than TecSAR shows how much catching up we have to do in SAR technology.

jmaxwell · Post by **jmaxwell** » 23 Apr 2009 03:01

Prem Kumar wrote:Firstly, hearty congrats to ISRO !!

There is something interesting about the timelines though. If indeed the order was placed for TecSAR after 26/11, the entire process from order placement to launch has been an incredibly short 5 months!! Is it really possible to build, test and launch satellites within this short a timeframe - maybe the gurus can clarify?

Alternately, this satellite was already in the works in Israel (maybe for their own TecSAR replacement) and we decided to buy it. A 3rd possibility is that both India and Israel will co-use the satellite in a cost-sharing, intelligence-sharing mode (might be why Mr. Nair is tightlipped on the cost).

Of course all this is assuming that we bought the satellite off-the-shelf

Gerard wrote:Israel helps India launch spy satellite

From article:
> The satellite can also be used to gather intelligence on Iran.

That should answer your question.

>The satellite, developed by Israel Aerospace Industries, is based on a specially-designed technology
> called SAR (synthetic aperture radar) that enables the satellite to provide imagery 24 hours a day
> and under any weather conditions.

Israeli DDMitis?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 23 Apr 2009 03:09

Yeah - given the urgency of the purchase, I am sure there must be some govt-to-govt agreement to share intelligence. Not a bad thing though. The Israeli co-operation has been one of the few master-strokes of our defence & foreign policy establishments. I dont know who the credit should go to - George Fernandes??

Though the Israeli newspaper media has its share of DDM and hyperbole, this article seemed accurate to me. It is a SAR satellite and does provide 24 hour imagery (not of the same place though)

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Apr 2009 03:20

I will not surprised if Isreal had made 2 or more of the TECSAR, and had on shelf TECSAR units that was quickly sold to Yindians post 26/11, hence the short turnaround time.

TECSAR/Trinidad

In April 2007, Northrop Grumman and IAI initiated an exclusive teaming agreement to provide multi-mode X-band radar imagery capabilities to the United States Government based on TECSAR. The resulting spacecraft, known as Trinidad, can be manufactured in about 28 months and held in storage for launch on a 30-day call-up.

Northrop Grumman > News Releases

In April 2007, Northrop Grumman and IAI initiated an exclusive teaming agreement to provide a responsive, cost-effective, space-based SAR capability to the U.S. government based on IAI's TECSAR multi-mode X-band radar imaging satellite. Known as Trinidad, the system will provide unique day/night and all-weather point and area collection capabilities. Trinidad can be manufactured in about 28 months and held in storage for launch on a 30-day call-up. "Northrop Grumman is ready to quickly deliver Trinidad to help the U.S. gain a more complete picture of the threats we face today on a global scale."

DoD Looks Abroad for Space Radar

Citing a persistent need among U.S. military forces, the U.S. Defense Department is moving ahead with a fast-tracked search for small, low-cost radar satellites and supporting ground systems that could be fielded as early as 2012, Pentagon documents show.

n the past few years, several radar satellite systems have been deployed internationally that fit the descriptions outlined in the Pentagon documents: Radarsat-2 was launched in December 2007; the last of five SAR-Lupe satellites was deployed in July; and TecSAR reached orbit in January.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 23 Apr 2009 03:30

If the Israelis are helping the U.S on SAR, that's pretty impressive, given that the U.S has been researching this area since the 70s.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 23 Apr 2009 03:37

Another point to note that this Risat being designated an ISRO bird did not arouse as much domestic or international opprobrium as TECSAR's launch had, with Iran feeling the need to come out with a statement.
Now only the Pakis have lent their voice, and who the fc*k gives a damn to what the pakis have to say internationally these days?

vina · Post by **vina** » 23 Apr 2009 05:14

Arun_S wrote:Key tech satellites are often built in pairs, the second serves as a backup in case of launch failure and and if launch was good it also help troubleshooting the satellite in orbit, by experimenting on the exact replica that is hand in lab conditions. Due to high NRE, the cost of make one sat is almost same as making 2 to 3 sats. I will not surprised if Isreal had made 2 or more of the TECSAR, and had on shelf TECSAR units that was quickly sold to Yindians post 26/11, hence the short turnaround time.

Saar, you are one hell of a very smart and cunning Yindoo. Very Dhoti clad and Chankian onree. I think you are right on the money on this.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 23 Apr 2009 05:32

p_saggu wrote:Another point to note that this Risat being designated an ISRO bird did not arouse as much domestic or international opprobrium as TECSAR's launch had, with Iran feeling the need to come out with a statement.
Now only the Pakis have lent their voice, and who the fc*k gives a damn to what the pakis have to say internationally these days?

The first TECSAR had a distinct Iranian angle. Here there is none. Domestic opprobrium would be dealt with at the electoral hustings. So usual suspects/Indian chatteratti will be severely muzzled by their political controllers during this stage.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 23 Apr 2009 06:36

Prem Kumar wrote:If the Israelis are helping the U.S on SAR, that's pretty impressive, given that the U.S has been researching this area since the 70s.

US has no SAR payload flying in the civilian domain. I think they had some Space Shuttle payloads, that's it. In fact US agencies use Canadian Radarsat data.

It is a glaring omission if you will and rarely seen, considering the breadth of expertise otherwise seen in the US. It also is a reminder to India, that things do not have to be developed exclusively in the US/west before we can think of doing it.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 23 Apr 2009 07:15

I thought US had a mini-SAR flying on Chandrayaan-1.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 23 Apr 2009 07:22

Yes, in planetary exploration mode, but none for civilian applications like the RADARSAT data is used for. Note mini-SAR is from APL at JHU. I think the shuttle payloads were also by them, and it is mostly a defence applications lab.

ISRO is planning to use RISAT (to be launched) for disaster monitoring.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 23 Apr 2009 07:30

India Launches Radar Satellite

Excerpts . .

The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) has for some years been developing its own radar satellite, RISAT-1 (an acronym for Radar Imaging Satellite), which may be ready to take to the sky by the end of 2009. Meanwhile, the RISAT-2 satellite, which has just been launched, was realised “in association with Israel Aerospace Industries,” according to an ISRO press release. (But RISAT-2, in contrast to RISAT-1, does not figure in the Annual Report or the Outcome Budget presented by the Department of Space to Parliament last year.) In January 2008, the PSLV launched Israel’s TECSAR radar spy satellite. A drawing of RISAT-2 released by ISRO shows the satellite to be strikingly similar to that of TECSAR, and their weights and orbits also match. RISAT-2 is said to have a resolution that varies from one to 10 metres, depending on the mode in which it operates. With a higher resolution than that of RISAT-1 or Canada’s RADARSAT-2, the satellite just launched will be able to detect far smaller objects. The Indian space agency’s press release claims that RISAT-2 “will enhance ISRO’s capability for earth observation,” especially during floods, cyclones, and landslides, and aid in the management of disasters. On the other hand, the space website Spaceflight Now, quoting officials of the U.S. aerospace giant, Lockheed Martin, observed that RISAT-2 will give India a radar reconnaissance capability comparable to that on the latest U-2 spy plane operated by the U.S. Air Force.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 23 Apr 2009 08:07

From Spaceflight Now

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 23 Apr 2009 09:13

It will be interesting now to see how the RISAT2 data will be operationally used. Every pass is going to generate a boatload of data. Hopefully our IT prowess will take over at that point in analyzing and classifying all this.

The best evidence of its effectiveness would be a (hopefully) dramatic increase in the # of pigs sent to their maker while crossing the LOC

Another thing I did notice in the Spaceflight article - the use of RISAT data to track ships. Apparently the first SEASAT launched by the U.S could detect submarine wakes up to a certain depth (though that was not its intended purpose). It was all hushed up. If RISAT can do something similar, that would be one heck of a capability!!

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 23 Apr 2009 10:11

shynee wrote:From Spaceflight Now

from the article:

The most intriguing of these is the highly secret twin Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency "Mitex" satellites currently prowling geosynchronous orbit at nearly 25,000 miles altitude. The Mitex satellites can secretly sneak up and image spacecraft, like those from China, that are otherwise so far away they are essentially invisible and difficult to characterize.

Earlier this year the Mitex satellites traveled from opposite sides of the planet to rendezvous with and inspect a crippled U.S. missile warning spacecraft.

Some Chinese and other international space officials are highly critical of the new Mitex capability because if a U.S. satellite can sneak up to take a picture, it could possibly also disable the other satellite without leaving evidence that it had been done by a U.S. satellite.

What's this Mitex based on? Is it conventional propulsion? How long is its mission life, and how long does its propellant last?

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 23 Apr 2009 10:22

jmaxwell wrote:
>The satellite, developed by Israel Aerospace Industries, is based on a specially-designed technology
> called SAR (synthetic aperture radar) that enables the satellite to provide imagery 24 hours a day
> and under any weather conditions.

Israeli DDMitis?

Nope.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 23 Apr 2009 10:50

Sanjay M wrote:What's this Mitex based on? Is it conventional propulsion? How long is its mission life, and how long does its propellant last?

Looks like it is a combination of conventional and otherwise. It is a microsatellite that would need to change positions drastically and possibly frequently too.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 23 Apr 2009 14:17

Gerard wrote:Indian spy satellite can see number plates of cars

Resolution of spy satellite needs to be in Cms/Inches, certainly not in feet/metres to read or to understand the numbers on plates of cars.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Apr 2009 15:54

Yes, that is obvious but the interesting thing about this article is: why this bit of DDM? Who fed them this 'information' and why? Imagine the plight of the poor Abdul in Pakistan thinking of what Indian eyes in the sky are seeing.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 23 Apr 2009 16:05

ISRO is planning to use RISAT (to be launched) for disaster monitoring.

Including the monitoring of biggest disaster to humanity located across our western border?

saip · Post by **saip** » 23 Apr 2009 16:15

Jamal K. Malik wrote:
Gerard wrote:Indian spy satellite can see number plates of cars
Resolution of spy satellite needs to be in Cms/Inches, certainly not in feet/metres to read or to understand the numbers on plates of cars.

They can see the plate but not read it perhaps. Then again the resolution could be higher than what is being claimed.

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 23 Apr 2009 16:34

Prem Kumar wrote:Firstly, hearty congrats to ISRO !!

There is something interesting about the timelines though. If indeed the order was placed for TecSAR after 26/11, the entire process from order placement to launch has been an incredibly short 5 months!! Is it really possible to build, test and launch satellites within this short a timeframe - maybe the gurus can clarify?

Alternately, this satellite was already in the works in Israel (maybe for their own TecSAR replacement) and we decided to buy it. A 3rd possibility is that both India and Israel will co-use the satellite in a cost-sharing, intelligence-sharing mode (might be why Mr. Nair is tightlipped on the cost).

Of course all this is assuming that we bought the satellite off-the-shelf

Quoting 'Indian launch schedule' from another website ( dated 2oct2007 ... yes 2007 )

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index. ... ic=1173.90

Small sats to be launched by Indian launch vehicles:

Anusat by PSLV (The Space Calendar is scheduling this launch for May 2008).
X-Sat by PSLV (The Space Calendar is scheduling this launch for May 2008)

Susequent discussions are :

Could Anusat and X-Sat launch together?

I suppose it's possible.

What is this X Sat?? What happened to it afterwards??