MRCA News and Discussion

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Jun 2009 22:59

Guddu wrote:Dont know if it is just smoke & mirrors.
Orbat reporting...
"Indian unlikely to buy US fighter aircraft says a defense person whose name we must withhold. He says that several smaller deals, still worth billions of dollars, will be signed: in addition to the 6 x C-130Js already ordered for the Special Forces, another 8 will be ordered; as will 12 CH-47s, likely 22 attack helicopters, and Harpoon SSMs. The reason the fighter deal will not go through is that India refuses to accept US controls over the aircraft, the so-called end-user requirement. Since the US Congress for its part will not budge, this $10-billion deal for 126 fighters (six squadrons) will not happen."

Interesting if true. So, IF the US gives in on the end-user, then F-18/16 are in for sure?

US will blink.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 21 Jun 2009 23:37

dorai wrote:Looks like they might be taking the inner track ahead of the other canards...

Again, the EF flew with CAESAR 3 years ago and they think it will take at least another 5 years to make operational.

If a development version of the Raven flies on a Gripen demonstrator by the end of the year, what makes you think they will be ahead of where EF was 3 years ago?

Flying a demonstrator is easy, making it operational is hard.

Sontu · Post by **Sontu** » 21 Jun 2009 23:46

NRao wrote:
Guddu wrote:Dont know if it is just smoke & mirrors.
Orbat reporting...
"Indian unlikely to buy US fighter aircraft "
Interesting if true. So, IF the US gives in on the end-user, then F-18/16 are in for sure?

US will blink.

It's not only India buying the fighter plane it's other way India is also bying dependency on US for a big chunk of it's airforce.
And hence in the event of any future clash of US interest...say
- Any future Indian Nuclear test.
- Any future ICBM test with a range over 10,000 KM
or even
- A disagreement in WTO on subsidy or change in rules for patent rights, private banking and private insurance cos….can invoke a US ban on critical components, armaments spares and maintenance.

Our forces will fall pray to the situation and our leaders will start looking at Europe, Russia and rest of the world for the alternate supplies..think of the impact of that ban, if that happens during a ongoing conflict !!!!

1.Do we remember US ban on Uranium supply in 70’s…and India literally had to beg in front of Australia, Canada Russia and France.

2.Same happened during LCA development when US seized FCS software …which were developed by Indian technicians while working in US along side a US company.

3.Also do not forget that after very very long time, in 1998 India was able to conduct it's 2nd round of Nuclear test while only prime minister and foreign minister was aware of the plan and had to play loots hide and seek game to fool US intelligence and spying satelites......WHY ???

China does it's test when ever it feels the need ..same goes about Pakistan too...but for India, when ever India tried to do a test,US immediately threatend with dire consequences i.e. Ban on technology and components and isolate India from the rest of the world...etc..etc. ultimately resulted in stopping the planned test.(Do we remember our Ex PM Narsimha Rao admitted openly ...only withhold US exact words/text of that threatning...IIRC it was during an interview of Narsimha Rao with Prabhu Chaola. After that interview Narsimha Rao fallen ill and ultimately died.)

Even look at our very recent (during last Knagress raj) policy shift of developing long range ICBMs and now range is capped at 5000 KMs...and this were notieced by our scientists who were working on those projects...they had hinted about the this policy change openly.

That’s why Rafale should be our choice….this is too CRITICAL DEPENDANCY...WE CAN NOT AFFORD TO DEPEND ON US ON THIS.

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 21 Jun 2009 23:49

NRao wrote:
Interesting if true. So, IF the US gives in on the end-user, then F-18/16 are in for sure?

US will blink.

Both the american a/c in the competition are outdated compared to the new US F22 and F35 so i guess it is not much of a sacrifice for the US to forgo the requirement.

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 21 Jun 2009 23:50

GeorgeWelch wrote:
dorai wrote:Looks like they might be taking the inner track ahead of the other canards...
Again, the EF flew with CAESAR 3 years ago and they think it will take at least another 5 years to make operational.

If a development version of the Raven flies on a Gripen demonstrator by the end of the year, what makes you think they will be ahead of where EF was 3 years ago?

Flying a demonstrator is easy, making it operational is hard.

Selex and Saab is not exactly beginners when it comes to operational AESAs. Saab with Erieye and other radars, and Selex with a number of operational vixens, even sold to the USA. And Selex is the ones who made the EF work possible.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 22 Jun 2009 00:10

dorai wrote:Selex and Saab is not exactly beginners when it comes to operational AESAs.

Selex is the lead on CAESAR too . . .

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 22 Jun 2009 00:22

GeorgeWelch wrote:
dorai wrote:Selex and Saab is not exactly beginners when it comes to operational AESAs.
Selex is the lead on CAESAR too . . .

That's what I said. Except that the Gripen program is more advanced at this stage and there's little interest in the EF program for funding AESA development. We'll see later on what they decide.

The Selex vixen radars today use Saab's data processing units which is why the two programs is such a perfect match. Saab has also flown Gripen AESA since 2007, not on Gripen but out of C-130 where they point the test rig out the rear.

There's 15 years of Gripen AESA work at Saab. Fact is Selex and Saab is the European AESA leaders both in terms of technology and the number of operational AESA products. So I think they got everything under control, if everything was about flying AESA radars on jets then the Japanese F-2 would be awesome.

Omar · Post by **Omar** » 22 Jun 2009 01:35

The MRCA deal isn't anywhere near that big. If you've looked at all the trillions Obama is throwing around in 'stimulus' money, the MRCA deal means about squat to the US from an economic perspective.

At the same time, you can't write off the MRCA. This contract is on par with al-Salam deal between UK and KSA for 72 EF jets.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Jun 2009 02:50

The MRCA deal isn't anywhere near that big. If you've looked at all the trillions Obama is throwing around in 'stimulus' money, the MRCA deal means about squat to the US from an economic perspective.

Compare $10 billion to the earnings of a company selling their ware, not to the US economy. A Boeing will put enough pressure on the US govt to make a diff. LM put that pressure for the few F-16s that Pakistan is getting.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 22 Jun 2009 02:52

do keep in mind that Selex in the past has held discussions with the PAF on a possible aesa candidate (FC-1/J-10) in the future.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 22 Jun 2009 03:13

The MRCA deal isn't anywhere near that big. If you've looked at all the trillions Obama is throwing around in 'stimulus' money, the MRCA deal means about squat to the US from an economic perspective.

Obama is begging (Geithner in China, begging the Chinese to keep buying treasuries

),borrowing (The Fed monetizing the debt, after all Obama has to pay it back as well) and stealing ( from the taxpayers and GenNext who will be paying it all in taxes )
It's OT but relevant .

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 22 Jun 2009 04:32

its not going to be f16/18 nor its mig/gripen its typhoon vs rafale

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 22 Jun 2009 04:41

After all this MRCA drama is over...the moment India announces the winner..most of the loosing nations may start helping Pak directly or indirectly except Russia maybe...

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 22 Jun 2009 04:50

Venkarl wrote:After all this MRCA drama is over...the moment India announces the winner..most of the loosing nations may start helping Pak directly or indirectly except Russia maybe...

this drama is created by indians themselves,india could get help for kaveri/ LCA from france/russia/EADS 10-12 years ago and by late 2005 LCA could be operational along with kaveri,at that time our drdo/hal/gtre were thinking that they can do it themselves but their trying became very slow.

if India would have joined a foreign partner 10-12 years and then the need for MRCA would not have arrived and this is the cost of slow thinking .

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 22 Jun 2009 05:03

I think we shouldn't bother about past actions of Indian leaders as you can't undo and redo things. Whatever jet IAF decides on...babus in Delhi will have tight time in balancing & ironing things out with other nations to contain any ripple effects which leads to Pak's benefit..

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 22 Jun 2009 05:42

Venkarl wrote:I think we shouldn't bother about past actions of Indian leaders as you can't undo and redo things. Whatever jet IAF decides on...babus in Delhi will have tight time in balancing & ironing things out with other nations to contain any ripple effects which leads to Pak's benefit..

Venkarl, you assume that the supplier we eventually buy from won't sell to Pak. I think that assumption is wrong. I think we should assume that whatever we buy may later be on offer to Pakistan as well. So this line of thinking is actually quite fruitless and therefore needless. If Pakistan can keep convincing the US and other countries to fund their anti-India military purchases, directly or indirectly, then it is Indian diplomacy and strategic manoeuvering that would have failed.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 22 Jun 2009 06:50

Pratik,

PratikDas wrote: Venkarl, you assume that the supplier we eventually buy from won't sell to Pak.
--No. I assumed that other nations may sell weapons to Pak.

I think that assumption is wrong. I think we should assume that whatever we buy may later be on offer to Pakistan as well. So this line of thinking is actually quite fruitless and therefore needless.
-- Yes, I agree with you 100% hands down. But, I never assumed that. . I firmly believe that IAF is too capable to go against a paki f16 on a f16. My point is something else.

If Pakistan can keep convincing the US and other countries to fund their anti-India military purchases, directly or indirectly, then it is Indian diplomacy and strategic manoeuvering that would have failed.
-- Indian diplomacy and strategic maneuvering has failed with Agostas and U-214s. So, the subtle message in my last post is that our Diplomats must mitigate the risks carefully to minimal if not dangerous.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 22 Jun 2009 07:23

From Orbat.com:

Indian unlikely to buy US fighter aircraft says a defense person whose name we must withhold. He says that several smaller deals, still worth billions of dollars, will be signed: in addition to the 6 x C-130Js already ordered for the Special Forces, another 8 will be ordered; as will 12 CH-47s, likely 22 attack helicopters, and Harpoon SSMs. The reason the fighter deal will not go through is that India refuses to accept US controls over the aircraft, the so-called end-user requirement. Since the US Congress for its part will not budge, this $10-billion deal for 126 fighters (six squadrons) will not happen.
Meanwhile, we learn in the latest twist in the Indian medium artillery competition that has been going on for 25 years now, the Singapore light 155mm gun has been disqualified for unspecified improprieties. Aside from the initial order of 400 Bofors 155mm, India has still to buy a medium gun, despite the decision taken some years ago to standardize on the 155mm for division artillery.
The Indian MOD is the only ministry in the world to regularly return allocated money to the Indian Exchequer: money not spent by the end of the Fiscal Year has to be returned. We are told the sum returned in 2008-09 is a shockingly high $10-billion budgeted for weapons.
It takes only a single unsubstantiated allegation of impropriety to be made by a rival and complete deals are jettisoned. after the fuss on Bofors kickbacks in the 1980s, no Indian bureaucrat or senior military officer is willing to risk her/his career even if a whisper of scandal exists. Some deals go through because there is no competitor, like with the C-130s and the Chinooks.

kit · Post by **kit** » 22 Jun 2009 07:49

Well add all that and you have partly the reason why the IA wasnt exactly ready for a war with PK inspite of India s defence budget being 3 times that of pakistan.Corruption happens in a democracy when there is a chance of easy money.Make everything accountable and written down.As long as you can substantiate why something was chosen and the nearest contender wasnt can be done.,much like doctors making a decision when a proper diagnosis might be lacking in a patient critically ill.Not making a decision and not doing (treating) for fear of failure or others is akin to slowly killing the country.It is treason if you look at the whole situation. Sad to say but Indian democracy is so much wanting when it comes to decision making and the will to carry it out.It takes real leaders with ***s.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jun 2009 17:18

The MMRCA is the biggest fraud inflicted on Indian public by Netas and IAF top brass working in concurrence , $10 Billion spent on foreign toys all in the name of depleting squadron strength

Let them put that money on Indian R&D Organisation and Defence Sectors and for the welfare and well being of Indian Defence forces and their families , something which will pay them well in long run.

Let the IAF do well with what they have and compensate numbers with more MKI and Tejas and upgrading existing fleet.

To use their words let them "Touch the Sky with Glory" with what they have and not carve for more foreign imported maal.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jun 2009 18:22

talking about fraud, i think even the mig-29 upgrades are part of a bigger laaang draawn out frauds. for example they could have leapfroged to either zhuk-aesa or el/m2052s directly rather single step to zhuk-me. they could have considered TVC, if mig35 is visioned is ready for sale. there is a fraud in order 4000 more t90 tanks.. and why france was not asked to field their aesa radar for the m2k upgrades, that seemingly and highly visible fraud with a booooosted up cost for upgrades.

we could have easily summed up kaveri with either a snecma or saturn combo, if the collaboration approach was frozen.. and saved big bucks. fraud!.

if gripen is not chosen (expect its the cheapest of all), would be the mother of all frauds.

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 22 Jun 2009 18:26

shyamd wrote:From Orbat.com:

Indian unlikely to buy US fighter aircraft says a defense person whose name we must withhold. He says that several smaller deals, still worth billions of dollars, will be signed: in addition to the 6 x C-130Js already ordered for the Special Forces, another 8 will be ordered; as will 12 CH-47s, likely 22 attack helicopters, and Harpoon SSMs. The reason the fighter deal will not go through is that India refuses to accept US controls over the aircraft, the so-called end-user requirement. Since the US Congress for its part will not budge, this $10-billion deal for 126 fighters (six squadrons) will not happen.
Meanwhile, we learn in the latest twist in the Indian medium artillery competition that has been going on for 25 years now, the Singapore light 155mm gun has been disqualified for unspecified improprieties. Aside from the initial order of 400 Bofors 155mm, India has still to buy a medium gun, despite the decision taken some years ago to standardize on the 155mm for division artillery.
The Indian MOD is the only ministry in the world to regularly return allocated money to the Indian Exchequer: money not spent by the end of the Fiscal Year has to be returned. We are told the sum returned in 2008-09 is a shockingly high $10-billion budgeted for weapons.
It takes only a single unsubstantiated allegation of impropriety to be made by a rival and complete deals are jettisoned. after the fuss on Bofors kickbacks in the 1980s, no Indian bureaucrat or senior military officer is willing to risk her/his career even if a whisper of scandal exists. Some deals go through because there is no competitor, like with the C-130s and the Chinooks.

anything can be disqualified for unspecified reason just like FH-77 swedish howitzers did not meet requirements as said by ex army chief JJ SINGH in the presence of mantri mahodaya and same for il78 tankers.

the deal which has no yummy smell of corruption which brings saliva out of the mouths of mantris/babus/middleman doesn't meet requirements.

there is only requirement for all deals is to bring "saliva out of mouths of mantris/babus/middleman".

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 22 Jun 2009 18:43

Austin wrote:The MMRCA is the biggest fraud inflicted on Indian public by Netas and IAF top brass working in concurrence , $10 Billion spent on foreign toys all in the name of depleting squadron strength

Let them put that money on Indian R&D Organisation and Defence Sectors and for the welfare and well being of Indian Defence forces and their families , something which will pay them well in long run.

Let the IAF do well with what they have and compensate numbers with more MKI and Tejas and upgrading existing fleet.

To use their words let them "Touch the Sky with Glory" with what they have and not carve for more foreign imported maal.

well,what alternative do we have?,keep waiting for LCA,or just order more su-30 mki's,later could have been better but relying heavily on russians was not advisable,all migs in our inventory,su-30 mki,pak-fa,all russian and if putin wants to arm twist us and stops spares just to get any ruskie convict out of indian jail,what options do we have.

dont forget what happened to purulia arms drop case Latvian convicts

Andrew DeCristofaro · Post by **Andrew DeCristofaro** » 22 Jun 2009 18:54

narayana wrote:
Austin wrote:The MMRCA is the biggest fraud inflicted on Indian public by Netas and IAF top brass working in concurrence , $10 Billion spent on foreign toys all in the name of depleting squadron strength

Let them put that money on Indian R&D Organisation and Defence Sectors and for the welfare and well being of Indian Defence forces and their families , something which will pay them well in long run.

Let the IAF do well with what they have and compensate numbers with more MKI and Tejas and upgrading existing fleet.

To use their words let them "Touch the Sky with Glory" with what they have and not carve for more foreign imported maal.
well,what alternative do we have?,keep waiting for LCA,or just order more su-30 mki's,later could have been better but relying heavily on russians was not advisable,all migs in our inventory,su-30 mki,pak-fa,all russian and if putin wants to arm twist us and stops spares just to get any ruskie convict out of indian jail,what options do we have.

dont forget what happened to purulia arms drop case Lithuanian convicts

you are daydreaming that russia will ever stop spares and also many countries rely solely on US like israel,s.korea,japan,some european countries.
does US stops spares for these countries???? i don't think so.

and what affect just 126 jets will do in this regard this too getting late and buying more mki is cheapest and quickest option

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 22 Jun 2009 18:59

first mki deal was signed in 1996 and followup in year 2000 for 140 more can u tell me after 9 years how many su-30 mki do we have now?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Jun 2009 19:28

Fraud items: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=3&t=4850

arun · Post by **arun** » 22 Jun 2009 21:03

Excerpt focused on the MRCA from India Strategic interview of ACM P.V. Naik. Gives a decent feel of the selection process:

By Gulshan Luthra and Air Marshal Ashok Goel (Retd)

Published : June 2009

Air Chief Marshal P V Naik told India Strategic in an interview on the eve of the Paris Air Show that teams from the IAF’s Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE), Bangalore, were being deployed to test the competing aircraft within a tight schedule from the country of manufacture to within India at three places. …………..........

………………….. Giving details of the Field Evaluation Tests (FETs), he said that in the first round, Indian pilots would visit the country of manufacture of each aircraft to see the facilities; in the second round, two to three aircraft from each manufacturer would be flight tested in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh; and in the third round, actual weapon firing tests would be held in the country of manufacture (or in another country as designated by the manufacturer – not all European countries have firing ranges).

……………......... The aircraft would go to Bangalore for “performance, systems and humidity trials, to Jaisalmer for hot weather and weapon trials, and to Leh for high altitude and cold weather trials.”

“The evaluations would be in sequence, one after the other, starting from Bangalore.”

Specifically, Air Chief Marshal Naik pointed out: In India, the aircraft would be subjected to performance trials which would include takeoff and landing characteristics, aircraft maneuvering, and checks of certain systems in the air. Evaluation of its maintainability, mission support equipment, operations at high altitude and in specific environments will also be conducted. Analyses of some aspects operations of its avionics, radar and Electronic Warfare (EW) systems along with live firing of long range weapons would be conducted at vendor-specific locations.”

All the trials are on No-Cost-No- Commitment basis, and the IAF will buy only the one which meets all the parametres in terms of capabilities and cost. …………...........

He said that initially, IAF was looking at only 126 aircraft as per the RfP but an increase in the number of aircraft was likely. The RfP has a 50 per cent option clause, that is, IAF could buy another 63 aircraft in future without any escalation. …………...............

IAF was hopeful to get the first selected aircraft by 2013-14 …………..........and its manufacturer would begin supplying the aircraft within three years of the signing of the contract.

The initial value for 126 aircraft with two years of spares and maintenance is estimated at around USD 10 billion. It would be the responsibility of the manufacturer to ensure periodic upgrades and serviceability for up to 40 years.

Asked how would the IAF evaluate the AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) requirement that is mandatory but not yet available on board some of the aircraft, the Air Chief said that the trial template is common for all, without deviation, and to be selected, an aircraft would have to meet the requirements in the RfP.

“A very comprehensive and detailed trial plan and methodology has been formulated by the Air HQ for the complete evaluation of platforms being offered. This includes testing the performance of all systems including the AESA radar. The same template would be used to evaluate all the offered aircraft and systems.”

“The performance of all aircraft would be evaluated and checked for compliance, strictly against the desired specifications, that have already been published and made known to the vendors. Comprehensive reports would then be compiled and submitted (to the MoD). That is the process that we will follow.”

The aircraft are evaluated “strictly under the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs) which include maintainability, reliability, performance, life-cycle costs, warranties and many complex issues. It is only after checking out the offer against the specified parameters that final recommendations are made.” The Air Chief Marshal defined Mission Success and Safe Return of Pilots and Assets as the key to the IAF modernization and acquisition programme. ……………………..............

India Strategic

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 22 Jun 2009 21:32

Great catch, Arun. Finally, some much needed relief to the speculation. Many of the aspects of the trials were predicted in this thread, thanks to the gurus!

We have a new dawn:

It may be noted that in the past, the ratio of IAF aircraft has been two in the west and one in the east. Indications are that from now on, this distribution will be 50:50.

naird · Post by **naird** » 22 Jun 2009 22:59

arun wrote:Excerpt focused on the MRCA from India Strategic interview of ACM P.V. Naik. Gives a decent feel of the selection process:

Asked how would the IAF evaluate the AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) requirement that is mandatory but not yet available on board some of the aircraft, the Air Chief said that the trial template is common for all, without deviation, and to be selected, an aircraft would have to meet the requirements in the RfP.

Well well ...is this clear indication that its going to be SH or Falcon.....OR is this DDM ? It seems that Air chief has indicated without Aesa , planes are not going to be recommended.

Only Thales Rafale has a Aesa date of 2010...Hope we can test that out.

Vinito · Post by **Vinito** » 22 Jun 2009 23:07

AmitR wrote:
NRao wrote:
Interesting if true. So, IF the US gives in on the end-user, then F-18/16 are in for sure?

US will blink.
Both the american a/c in the competition are outdated compared to the new US F22 and F35 so i guess it is not much of a sacrifice for the US to forgo the requirement.

Wont the AESA radars equipping them be a cause for concern or are they not that good when it comes to comparing them with the JSF radar capabilities?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 23 Jun 2009 00:15

…………...........

He said that initially, IAF was looking at only 126 aircraft as per the RfP but an increase in the number of aircraft was likely. The RfP has a 50 per cent option clause, that is, IAF could buy another 63 aircraft in future without any escalation. …………...............

Most Significant.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 23 Jun 2009 00:34

I think it means that the IAF has given up on the LCA.

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 23 Jun 2009 00:45

narayana wrote:first mki deal was signed in 1996 and followup in year 2000 for 140 more can u tell me after 9 years how many su-30 mki do we have now?

According to Air Chief Naik we have 80 MkI actively deployed at present.

Vinito · Post by **Vinito** » 23 Jun 2009 00:45

rkhanna wrote:
…………...........

He said that initially, IAF was looking at only 126 aircraft as per the RfP but an increase in the number of aircraft was likely. The RfP has a 50 per cent option clause, that is, IAF could buy another 63 aircraft in future without any escalation. …………...............
Most Significant.

The reason that the MRCA numbers would go up was due to the fact that by the time the order wud be fulfilled additional aircrafts like the Mig-27 & Jaguar would be up for retirement and the additional numbers would account for those. The final count for the MRCA was to be 180-190.

Ajay K · Post by **Ajay K** » 23 Jun 2009 01:22

Folks, wish we do not go in for the Mig-35 as MRCA as we would need services of Col Terrence Fornof (Remember his comments on the Su-30 MKI participating in the Red Flags) to teach us how to fly them.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 23 Jun 2009 02:37

Austin wrote:The MMRCA is the biggest fraud inflicted on Indian public by Netas and IAF top brass working in concurrence , $10 Billion spent on foreign toys all in the name of depleting squadron strength

Let them put that money on Indian R&D Organisation and Defence Sectors and for the welfare and well being of Indian Defence forces and their families , something which will pay them well in long run.

Let the IAF do well with what they have and compensate numbers with more MKI and Tejas and upgrading existing fleet.

To use their words let them "Touch the Sky with Glory" with what they have and not carve for more foreign imported maal.

Et tu Austin

negi · Post by **negi** » 23 Jun 2009 08:19

Finally Austin too has given up such is the twiddling capacity of our babus, sigh...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jun 2009 08:48

No i really think that kind of money ( $10 Billion ) is spent better by funding and encouraging our own programs and our own people. It might sound illogical to many now but in the long term it will help us become more self reliant.

The IAF has fetish for foreign toys , they can give 100 reasons to buy this or that in the name of this or that country or worsening security etc etc , but they will never fully support or encourage our own programs because there is nothing they personally gain from it.

What we will get in the end is loads of black boxes and few source code and some TOT and in the end it will be Lic Manf will some technology transfer , we gain nothing and spend our money funding LM , Dassult or Mig.

Omar · Post by **Omar** » 23 Jun 2009 08:56

No i really think that kind of money ( $10 Billion ) is spent better by funding and encouraging our own programs and our own people. It might sound illogical to many now but in the long term it will help us become more self reliant.

Nope doesn't sound illogical at all. If you think about it, the LCA fighter program has cost a cumulative total of $1.2 billion dollars as of 2008. Imagine what could have been done with $10 billion.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jun 2009 09:18

Man with that kind of money ( $10 billion ) we can comfortably fund LCA and MCA program , money for housing and funding for Defence forces personal and their children and provide life saving equipment for soldiers engaged COIN operation.

But no the IAF is fascinated with the best foreign toys available out there and the best fighter and AESA that money can buy all in the hope to " Touch the Sky with Glory "