Indian Roads Thread

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 01 Jul 2009 23:47

My understanding is that the T junction at Worli is temporary. A proper interchange was supposed to be constructed, but lack of coordination prevented it, particularly since the Worli-Haji Ali section is being bid for, and it may be the winning contractors responsibility. Further, there were land acquisition issues in the area related to the space needed for the interchange.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 02 Jul 2009 13:23

Singha wrote:would it be feasible to run double decker commuter rails in mumbai
and demolish and build greenfield high traffic stations at VT and churchgate ?

no rail system in the world seems capable of dealing with the sheer
number of people flooding up and down the two main routes!

Actually it is possible.
1 stop all long distance trains at the starting of mumbai (ask them to use the connecting local lines)
2 Invest in new railcars and uppgrade the signaling system. This will allow a new train to run every 3 min. (this would give the same capacity as 36 lanes of cars per line)
3 Make exclusive bus lane, across Mumbai. A single bus lane, carries the same traffic load as 8 lanes of cars. Hence reserving 6 lanes for exclusive bus use would carry the same traffic load as 48 lanes of cars.

Reserving lots of buslanes across Mumbai would make a tremendous difference to the public. Further it is important to provide good quality transport vehicles with clean AC service. Even the Maaliks of Malabar Hill, would prefer to use a Bus service if it could get them across Mumbai, within 30 min.

Sealink is definately an impressive piece of infrastructure, but the wrong medicine. If we assume that each car is carrying 2 people, the total capaciy will be arround 4800 people per hour. That is it.

(approx 10 cars per min per lane)

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 02 Jul 2009 13:40

1 stop all long distance trains at the starting of mumbai (ask them to use the connecting local lines)

Not sure if this is wise. Long distance train passengers have luggage, how do propose they move this luggage? Local trains are not built to handle this load, the luggage compartment on that is taken over by the likes of fishermen , dabbawalas etc with their stuff.

Plus, currently long distance trains do not ply in the rush hour as it is.

Invest in new railcars and uppgrade the signaling system. This will allow a new train to run every 3 min.

I thought we already have trains leaving every 3.5 mins or 4 mins in rush hour from CST/Churchgate? Didn't they say that they have already made changes to the signaling system and it is not possible to furthe reduce the number?

Reserving lots of buslanes across Mumbai would make a tremendous difference to the public. Further it is important to provide good quality transport vehicles with clean AC service.

Agree.... but given the traffic in Mumbai, how does one enforce the bus lane?

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 02 Jul 2009 15:58

Tanaji wrote:
1 stop all long distance trains at the starting of mumbai (ask them to use the connecting local lines)
Not sure if this is wise. Long distance train passengers have luggage, how do propose they move this luggage? Local trains are not built to handle this load, the luggage compartment on that is taken over by the likes of fishermen , dabbawalas etc with their stuff.

Plus, currently long distance trains do not ply in the rush hour as it is.

Invest in new railcars and uppgrade the signaling system. This will allow a new train to run every 3 min.
I thought we already have trains leaving every 3.5 mins or 4 mins in rush hour from CST/Churchgate? Didn't they say that they have already made changes to the signaling system and it is not possible to furthe reduce the number?

Reserving lots of buslanes across Mumbai would make a tremendous difference to the public. Further it is important to provide good quality transport vehicles with clean AC service.
Agree.... but given the traffic in Mumbai, how does one enforce the bus lane?

1 Even if you land at VT, you still have to go to where ever you are going. Hence you still have to take a Taxi or what ever. Long distance travlers with heavy lugage do not travel that frequently, so they should be able to bear the extra burden. If the long distance trains are running off peak hours, then it is fine.

2 There is still some room for improvement on the train lines. However it is limited. I think the maximum people a mass transport line can handle is arround 125-160 000 people per hour. Perhaps a solution could be to build an extra line above the existing ones (that have fewer stops and run faster). But fundamentally there is a requirement for an extra underground line (dont know if it is possible).

3 Bus lanes have dividers and only buses are allowed on that lane. Put a fine of RS 10 000 for driving on them. Sell off special permits for RS 1 crore to wealthy individuals. (there must at least be a few thousand who could afford them). Even if it is possible to increase the average speed to say 40 km per hour, one could manage BSE to Airport within some 30 min.

Mumbai is simply too crowded for even parking place. Individual car ownership should be limited to very few who should be make to pay for it. But at the same time, there is a requirement for a very good bus system.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 03 Jul 2009 01:49

Centre agrees to declare Haryana roads as NH
http://www.ptinews.com/news/153659_Cent ... oads-as-NH

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 03 Jul 2009 21:17

Highway improvements in Delhi and alternate connectivity between Delhi and Gurgaon
http://www.pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=49697

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 03 Jul 2009 22:48

Bus lanes is a SERIOUSLY BAD IDEA in India, where the roads are just not wide enough. You just have to see this in Delhi, where Sheila Dixit (or someone in her govt.) picked up an idea from brazil or somewhere to have a mass rapid transit exclusive bus route in the middle of the road. They even walled off that part of the road.
These wise guys forgot that the rest of the road was only one and an half lanes wide.
Result: The most horrible traffic jams ever. I have stayed in kolkata too, this delhi jam made even the howrah bridge jam seem like a walk in the park.

you can imagine a Jam some 8-10 odd kms long. Then when the buses broke down in the bus lane, they created a bus lane jam of their own.

It was fun only because the Delhi Traffic police pushing the broken down buses out of their lanes. The traffic bolis, hitherto known only for helping people out by privately reducing the fine amount paid by traffic offenders (Thank the courts for raising the fine limits, therby allowing the police much leeway in helping traffic offenders, by allowing them to pay Rs 1000/- to the police instead of Rs 1500/- to the court), also got some much needed exercise along the way.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 03 Jul 2009 22:50

In the west it is common to see inner city roads that are 6 and 8 lanes with the intercity routes as much as 16 lanes!

In india the NHAI golden quadilateral is 6 lanes only, 3 on each side. The original plan was for a 4 lane highway onlee.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Jul 2009 22:58

in most rural areas, the bideshi expways are 2+2 onree imho...increasing to 3+3 near smaller towns and perhaps 6+6 in ultra high density area like NJ turnpike on the approaches into NYC.

2+2 with 1+1 of proper shoulder is good enough for most situations.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 03 Jul 2009 23:11

3+3 main and 2+2 service lane is best for any of our city

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 04 Jul 2009 03:18

p_saggu wrote:Bus lanes is a SERIOUSLY BAD IDEA in India, where the roads are just not wide enough. You just have to see this in Delhi, where Sheila Dixit (or someone in her govt.) picked up an idea from brazil or somewhere to have a mass rapid transit exclusive bus route in the middle of the road. They even walled off that part of the road.
These wise guys forgot that the rest of the road was only one and an half lanes wide.
Result: The most horrible traffic jams ever. I have stayed in kolkata too, this delhi jam made even the howrah bridge jam seem like a walk in the park.

you can imagine a Jam some 8-10 odd kms long. Then when the buses broke down in the bus lane, they created a bus lane jam of their own.

It was fun only because the Delhi Traffic police pushing the broken down buses out of their lanes. The traffic bolis, hitherto known only for helping people out by privately reducing the fine amount paid by traffic offenders (Thank the courts for raising the fine limits, therby allowing the police much leeway in helping traffic offenders, by allowing them to pay Rs 1000/- to the police instead of Rs 1500/- to the court), also got some much needed exercise along the way.

Bus lanes are a good idea if it is implemented in a proper way. The Bus service must improve so much that people start taking it, in stead of personal cars. Personal car usage should be discoraged. Cars take up huge place, polute and chokes infrastructure. But people must get an alternative.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 04 Jul 2009 03:31

The metro trains have already done that in a big way for example in Delhi. Just see the huge number of two wheelers and cars parked at every metro station parking lot to see. In Delhi, it was simply too crazy to drive down to a place where a metro connection was available.
I could reach there
1. Faster than any car or bus
2. In air conditioned comfort
3. No jams, weather disruptions
4. The young mujahid in me like the 'scenery' around in Delhi.
Woe be onto me until I moved to an area of South Delhi where there was no metro connection yet.

Buses, no matter how well the network came in a distant second. The only use of buses was off a metro to go the short distance to an office etc. The metro being so well connected that this was very rarely required

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 04 Jul 2009 04:46

p_saggu wrote:The metro trains have already done that in a big way for example in Delhi. Just see the huge number of two wheelers and cars parked at every metro station parking lot to see. In Delhi, it was simply too crazy to drive down to a place where a metro connection was available.
I could reach there
1. Faster than any car or bus
2. In air conditioned comfort
3. No jams, weather disruptions
4. The young mujahid in me like the 'scenery' around in Delhi.
Woe be onto me until I moved to an area of South Delhi where there was no metro connection yet.

Buses, no matter how well the network came in a distant second. The only use of buses was off a metro to go the short distance to an office etc. The metro being so well connected that this was very rarely required

If metro can be provided, then nothing is better then this. But metro cant take everyone everywhere. Hence a good quality Bus service (AC and clean) is required. Once metro is built up in Noida, etc, then hopefully things will improve on the rodad.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 04 Jul 2009 08:39

Jamal K. Malik wrote:3+3 main and 2+2 service lane is best for any of our city

Where is the space?

We start building stuff with 12 foot wide roads. We have a 'Broadway" that is 18 feet wide, imagine what was the norm for 'regular roads'.

rachel · Post by **rachel** » 07 Jul 2009 08:15

Metro vs bus debate: the city of Paris was built in such a way that no place within the city limits was more than 15 minute walk from a Metro station. For Delhi city proper, such a goal is achievable. Paris metro = 220 km of lines. DElhi aims by 2010 to have 190 km.... with future rapid expansion all the way to 400 km.

To give an example of how big this is ... London is biggest in Euorpe at about 400 km. Other Euro biggies include Paris, Madrid, Moscow, each between 200 and 300km. Seoul Korea also slightly less than 300km.

If Delhi Metro achieves its goals it WILL be really impressive even on a world scale. Right noiw it is ONLY 75 km, still rather puny.

I wait with bated breath to see if that dramatic 1 year jump from 75 to 190 km can really take place.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 07 Jul 2009 09:26

The links to Gurgaon and Noida are the ones which will do this. These are essentially suburbs in the National Capital Territory, which as they get linked with the network of the city of delhi, also provide metro likage all along the way.
So south and east delhi metro extensions also link to Gurgaon and Noida.

Then there is the high speed New Delhi railway station - Indira Gandhi International Airport metro line, where airline check in and baggage will be at New Delhi Railway Station itself. The passangers and baggage will then proceed via metro to the airport terminal, some 15 Kms away.

These should all come on line next year, along with the huge glitzy all new Delhi Airport.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jul 2009 10:30

my wife just came from a ladakh tour. I can post a couple pix of khardung la
which in july is still snowbound and scary. people cross this from leh to enter nubra valley and then onto siachen. the other high pass chang la (3rd highest motorable pass) they crossed towards manali side was better. IA provides free tea in khardung la and a signboard asks people not to linger beyond 20 min there and not to exert themself being at 18kft. another one says "after whisky driving risky". she did try the local beer "chang" but didnt like it...looked like
fermented rice wine.

overall road conditions were quite smooth and well maintained. lots of mil trucks and camps ofcourse. one il76 in leh as expected.

as per her debriefing, 20% tourists were indians, rest 80% furriners. some were
on normal vehicle tours, some were in high alt trekking and cycling...lot of europeans more than amirkhans.

No she didnt spot any pinaka or brahmos trailers among 400+ photos. should have programmed her optronic sensors before leaving

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 07 Jul 2009 10:50

Singha wrote:my wife just came from a ladakh tour. I can post a couple pix of khardung la
which in july is still snowbound and scary.

Me and pals had done a similar trip in 2006. It was from Mid-October to End-October. Khardung La was awesome. The entire area was filled in snow, and we walked around a bit for around 10 mins. We too walked slowly, and stopped after a few steps because of the lack of oxygen (we felt the same in Leh, which is at a lower attitude as well).

The bonus in our entire trip was that we got hit by the first snow fall of the season - at Rohtang La. We had to make a unscheduled halt at Koksar, and carry on the next day morning. Rohtang La was fully covered by fresh snow.

Rishirishi wrote:stop all long distance trains at the starting of mumbai

Infact stations like LTT (Kurla) was introduced for this very purpose. This station is a bit far away from the busy parts of Mumbai City. Lots of mail/express trains to south now originate/terminate here.

Invest in new railcars and uppgrade the signaling system. This will allow a new train to run every 3 min. (this would give the same capacity as 36 lanes of cars per line)

Mumbai suburban has now fully automated signals. That means the signals change automatically based on train positions. This has been highly optimized. My understanding is that during peak hours trains arrive at a time gap of 2 mins. Also they are planning to build a 4th railway line (in Western Railways).

In Mumbai Fast locals and Mail/Express lines share the same railway lines. And during peak hours the fast locals (suburban) gets preference over mail/express trains.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 08 Jul 2009 03:47

p_saggu wrote:The links to Gurgaon and Noida are the ones which will do this. These are essentially suburbs in the National Capital Territory, which as they get linked with the network of the city of delhi, also provide metro likage all along the way.
So south and east delhi metro extensions also link to Gurgaon and Noida.

Then there is the high speed New Delhi railway station - Indira Gandhi International Airport metro line, where airline check in and baggage will be at New Delhi Railway Station itself. The passangers and baggage will then proceed via metro to the airport terminal, some 15 Kms away.

These should all come on line next year, along with the huge glitzy all new Delhi Airport.

I am sure the lines will have some impact on the traffic. Hopefully the improvement in quality of travel will change car whallas outlook on public transport.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 08 Jul 2009 08:47

NDTV video interview with Union Minister for Surface Transport, Kamal Nath
Very interesting. If Nath performs as well as he did as the Commerce Minister in the last administration, our road system will see a major improvement.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 11 Jul 2009 02:14

Rs.100,000 crore ($22 billion) investment in roads this year

“We are committed to the new target of laying 20 kilometres of roads per day, and to achieve this target there needs to be a quantum jump in construction activity across the country,” Nath told reporters after addressing the ‘Build India- Road infrastrcture’ summit here.

Citing land acquisition as a major hurdle to speedy construction of roads, the minister said henceforth projects would have to acquire 80 per cent of the required land before bids were allotted.

Nath also said he wanted state governments to play a more proacive role in road projects. “States must be stakeholders in these projects. If we do not get satisfactory participation from them, we are ready to abandon these projects.”

The minister said the government was looking at various innovative financing instruments to fund road projects and attract both the domestic and foreign investors. Also, the government was planning to involve pension funds, sovereign wealth funds, equity funds, besides other available investment channels like banks, to fund the road projects, which would require an investment of over Rs 2 lakh crore from the private sector over the next five years, he said.

Priority would be given to tolled roads and 60 per cent of projects this year will be on the toll-based revenue model and the remaining on annuity and engineering, procurement and construction (EPC) contract models.

According to Nath, the National Highways Authority of India (NHAI) has adequate resources at the moment and has no plans to borrow funds for the current year.

Yash · Post by **Yash** » 11 Jul 2009 18:21

While I don't think this can be replicated in Indian cities effectively, the following is nevertheless an impressive achievement for a country like Columbia. From concept to ribbon cutting: 3 years. They faced some of the same problems as Delhi with highly polluting private buses gridlocking the roadways. Plus a network of so called green buses complementing an effective system.
Buses May Aid Climate Battle in Poor Cities

I recall that Ahmedabad had a proposal for a similar Bus Rapid Transport system and it got a lot of work done behind the scenes - what happened eventually? Roads in Ahmd are broad in may places.

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 11 Jul 2009 21:29

Rishirishi wrote:
p_saggu wrote:The links to Gurgaon and Noida are the ones which will do this. These are essentially suburbs in the National Capital Territory, which as they get linked with the network of the city of delhi, also provide metro likage all along the way.
So south and east delhi metro extensions also link to Gurgaon and Noida.

Then there is the high speed New Delhi railway station - Indira Gandhi International Airport metro line, where airline check in and baggage will be at New Delhi Railway Station itself. The passangers and baggage will then proceed via metro to the airport terminal, some 15 Kms away.

These should all come on line next year, along with the huge glitzy all new Delhi Airport.
I am sure the lines will have some impact on the traffic. Hopefully the improvement in quality of travel will change car whallas outlook on public transport.

Metro to Noida starting around mid august.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 12 Jul 2009 07:43

August this year ? !!!

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 12 Jul 2009 13:07

p_saggu wrote:August this year ? !!!

Not the whole line,only upto sectr 16(near rajnigandha chowk).

link

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 15 Jul 2009 02:07

A nice move IMO, hopefully the additional red tape brought in is compensated by greater focus
Kamal Nath: expressways authority will be set up

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 17 Jul 2009 13:37

Gurgaon:

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 17 Jul 2009 20:02

everything is great about that road except people going ape on the accelerator and absolutely no lane/ overtaking sense.

The first time i drove on it, scared the hell out of me. Delhi is so full of daredevils.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 18 Jul 2009 01:13

India to launch the biggest PPP programme in the world: Kamal Nath

Shri Brijeshwar Singh, Chairman, NHAI gave a presentation on the future road projects for investment at the conclave. In the next three years, more than 100 projects worth about Rs 98000 crore would be available for bidding as part of the Annual Work Plan (2009-10) of NHAI. The event saw huge participation from the investors belongng to various fields such as investment bankers as well as the companies from the infrastructure sector including construction companies, and those dealing with construction equipment and technology.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2009 06:55

being a greenfield type project they should have kept one lane wide shoulders
in the middle and sides for greater safety. one second of mistake in the fast lane
will crash the car against the median and slide it across into other lanes in the
current design.

Yash · Post by **Yash** » 30 Jul 2009 13:36

Kamal Nath unveils massive road development plan

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?a=jh ... pment_plan

The Minister said that the Ministry has appointed a consultant to look at the feasibility of 15,600 km of expressways in the country. This would be in addition to the plans of constructing 1000 km of expressways.

He also announced that the Ministry would carry out an exercise of renumbering of the National Highways to facilitate easy identification.

Elaborating on this, he said, "The highways would be numbered in such a way that the odd and even numbers would specify whether the highway is running from East to West or North to South."

Hope this includes 'exit' numbering

Yash · Post by **Yash** » 30 Jul 2009 13:40

Suraj wrote:Rs.100,000 crore ($22 billion) investment in roads this year
“We are committed to the new target of laying 20 kilometres of roads per day, and to achieve this target there needs to be a quantum jump in construction activity across the country,” Nath told reporters after addressing the ‘Build India- Road infrastrcture’ summit here.
...

Well, that Rs. 100,000 crore target has just jumped to Rs. 200,000 crores according to the today's IE...hope this is not shenanigans by Mssr. Nath. He seems genuine & i've respected him since his time as comm. minister in the last UPA outing.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 30 Jul 2009 15:49

Kamal Nath ROCKS!! I am sure he can deliver a lot. His appointment (and kicking out that GFN Baaaaaaalu) made my day post election.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 30 Jul 2009 20:03

I caught the tail end of his tv interview shown on the local desi channel where he replied to a question, saying land acquisition was not the problem. We have been stringed along all the while with this lame excuse by others. This is one sector which is over two decades late in coming to a reasonable and world wide acceptable standards.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 30 Jul 2009 21:44

Dileep wrote:Kamal Nath ROCKS!! I am sure he can deliver a lot. His appointment (and kicking out that GFN Baaaaaaalu) made my day post election.

Totally agree with you. We wasted 6 years post-NDA rule in failing to add any significant road network. I hope he can match or exceed the NDA minister Khanduri's record.

karthik · Post by **karthik** » 31 Jul 2009 00:47

Yash wrote:
Well, that Rs. 100,000 crore target has just jumped to Rs. 200,000 crores according to the today's IE...hope this is not shenanigans by Mssr. Nath. He seems genuine & i've respected him since his time as comm. minister in the last UPA outing.

As far as i can remember when the BJP started the Golden quadrangle project they said that the same thing. They will improve the current 5km/day to 20km/day and i thought that was the current speed that the projects where already going!

Yash · Post by **Yash** » 14 Aug 2009 12:06

I've always loved actions taken in the field much more than meaningless "announcements" of projects. In that vein, here's a bit of good news about work that I wasn't even aware was being done at such rapid pace.

Bihar's bridges, way to a new work culture

The corporation has in the last three years constructed more bridges than Bihar did in the last 30 years! Since 1975, the corporation had constructed 330 bridges. In three years, 336 bridges have been inaugurated. In fact, on 11th June, Chief Minister Nitesh Kumar inaugurated 140 bridges in one symbolic gesture in Patna.

Credit to the CM & a certain Mr. Pratyaya Amrit, a 1991 batch IAS officer.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 24 Aug 2009 11:00

Surface transport minister Kamal Nath had set a 20kms/day roadbuilding target. However, in July only 10 kms/day were built, and in June, 6kms/day:
At 10km/day, roadbuilding progress behind Kamal Nath's target

India built around 10 km of highways per day in July, just about half of the target set by road transport and highways minister Kamal Nath, mostly due to poor response from private developers and slow pace of land acquisition.

A total of 308 km of highways were developed under various phases of the National Highways Development Programme (NHDP) in July, according to data compiled by the National Highways Authority of India (NHAI), the apex body responsible for creating road infrastructure across the country.

The pace of road-building in July, however, was much better than in June when the per-day average was just over 6 km.

Soon after taking charge of the key infrastructure department, Kamal Nath had set an ambitious target of building 7,000 km of highways per year at an average of 20 km per day. To achieve this target, the country needs more developers, an official in the road transport and highways ministry said.

“There are 35-40 large and medium highway developers in the country. Their resources in terms of technical and managerial manpower and finances are limited,” said the official requesting anonymity.

A few months ago, NHAI had invited bids for 29 projects under phase-III and phase-V of NHDP, but it received bids for only 11 projects. Three projects attracted single bids.

There is a big backlog in highways construction as awarding of contracts came to a virtual halt last year after private developers stayed away largely due to the economic slowdown and a liquidity crunch.

The developers are still not aggressive despite the easing of liquidity conditions in the market, said the ministry official.

In the first four months of the current fiscal year, the authority managed to award only 16 contracts under the national highways project.

Last fiscal, it had initiated bidding for 60 projects, including 44 under NHDP phase-III. Most of those projects have to be awarded now for development.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Aug 2009 13:03

drove to salem over the weekend NH7. very well maintained and clean road with lots of US style overpasses on village roads compared to direct merges as on the blr-mysore road. the median had miles and miles of flowers and the
road cleaning is probably given to villagers enroute...did not see ANY trash on the road.

in small car, 100kmph was easy. sedans were doing 120+. these are sustained
speeds over periods of hours, not burst speeds.

for a distance of 230km the tolls came to 150/- approx.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 24 Aug 2009 14:49

Singha wrote:drove to salem over the weekend NH7.

I would have to take this route during the coming week end. Earlier we used to avoid going through Salem. That was because the four-laning on this area was not completed, and the roads were not in good condition. How is it now?