INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

[Sanku]

Full scale destruction of any nation on the earth is simply not on the table any more. World opinion and interconnectedness will not permit it, without very significant costs to the winning party.

If we could really live with that assumption, we would not really need Agni, Arihant etc etc. We should not be developing BMs in the first place. None of these are needed.

Given that we are, I think its pretty clear that we do expect that full scale (meaning 4-5 major population centers) are expected to be targeted -- which I think is a pretty safe assumption.

So I think the right way to go is, MCD and then massive conventional superiority.

Please note as of now, what stop China from taking over Arunachal is that they may not actually be able to do so conventionally. And yes if they ramp up, we will not be sleeping either. For what ever we can say about MMS capitulating to external interests, this one thing is certain, loss of India to China is in no ones interests and we can safely expect India to keep moving on in that sphere.

[Raj Malhotra]

In Def Expo L&T has been displaying a mother sub along with 2 mini subs tethered to it. Does anybody have high resolution pic of the same? IIRC L&T also displayed AAD alongwith its launcher in all def expo but we were not able to get its significance. So L&T design may be very close to the real thing.

[chakkunny]

One possibility is to re-introduce the idea of a submarine tender by letting Arihant and her sister subs into this role. If the second class of conventional subs have fuel cells in addition to battery + diesels, the idea becomes even more appealing.

Arihant + 4 smaller conventional subs which can re-charge submerged = 21st century wolfpack. Tactically, the tender may choose to play safe and play a sustainment role only during a conventional conflict.

[Singha]

but thats like arjuna playing C3I from the rear while expecting nakula and shahadeva to deal with the likes of karna, drona and bheesma.

no can do

[Shankar]

Then, in our military-technical relationship, a high percentage of Indian arms equipment still has a high Russian content. I watched the launch of India’s first nuclear submarine at Vishakapatnam on July 26, and do you know about the design of this submarine? It is the Akula (the Russian submarine).

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... 5C/365376/

Shankarosky is super happy the final conformation on Arihant design and capabilities coming from Russian ambassador himself

[Virupaksha]

but thats like arjuna playing C3I from the rear while expecting nakula and shahadeva to deal with the likes of karna, drona and bheesma.

no can do

no it is the question which Karna faced. Whether to use your sole ace "divyashtra" for killing arjuna without which, you have no hope to win the war or is it for killing ghatotkach, surviving today!

[Sanku]

but thats like arjuna playing C3I from the rear while expecting nakula and shahadeva to deal with the likes of karna, drona and bheesma.

no can do

no it is the question which Karna faced. Whether to use your sole ace "divyashtra" for killing arjuna without which, you have no hope to win the war or is it for killing ghatotkach, surviving today!

Brilliant analogy.

[Raj Malhotra]

Interview with the outgoing Russian ambassador:

Then, in our military-technical relationship, a high percentage of Indian arms equipment still has a high Russian content. I watched the launch of India’s first nuclear submarine at Vishakapatnam on July 26, and do you know about the design of this submarine? It is the Akula (the Russian submarine).

So where was the Indian submarine designed and built?
Here in India !

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... 5C/365376/

personally I think that Yasen-granay-885-severdinsk is basically Akula-3 while Indian version of this Akula has been given a slight hump (using Borie style) to fit in longer K15 and KX missiles, As such it is Akula-4. Which again brings us to the fact that 6000 tons is just the empty weight and submerged combat weight is in the range of 9-12,000 tons

[John Snow]

Folks forgive me for coming up with this question.

We know L&T has contributed to this effort

Why is it that BHPV which also has faabrication experience in cryogenic vessels etc which demand high quality weldments is not being used in this effort?

Also L&T facilities are located in the west coast that too close to TSP. BHPV is in Vizag logistics wise it makes emminent sense no?

What is the role of BHEL, the steam turbines, the generators and the propulsion motors ( I am guessing they will be DC)
are they all contributing? Lots of money to make by PSU if they deliver and co ordinate

BHPV
http://www.bhpvl.com/facilities.htm

L&T
http://www.larsentoubro.com/lntcorporat ... res=P_MIPD

for ready reference

TIA

[chakkunny]

but thats like arjuna playing C3I from the rear while expecting nakula and shahadeva to deal with the likes of karna, drona and bheesma.

no can do

How so saar?

If you take away the advantage of mobility and the stealth with which it is achieved, why cannot an SDRE sub running on battary onlee and lurking in wait for an opputunity to ambush, be any less effective than a super duper nooklear submarine? They need to have just enough fuel left to make it to a safe zone should the rendeavous with the tender not happen. Else it all boils down to sensors and weapon systems and of course training.

[Philip]

I really don't know how India can force fitting Brahmos onto a French sub for instance if co-devloper Russia declines! Each country has an equal veto power.We are agreeing to an EUM with the US too,which has similar conditions! India cannot sell Brahmos to any country it wants without Russian approval and neither can Russia too.If either does,the entire Indo-Russian defence relationship would collapse.Plus,will India provide the required tech. support for modifying a Scorpene all by itself?It's a tall order.We've just begun to "float",sub building wise-we haven't yet built a single Scorpene at home,the project suffering serious delays, and its going to take us quite some time to "swim" at speed!

The Russian ambasador's interview is an excellent one, and should be read in full .It gives one the best overall picture of Indo-Russian relations we've had for years from the horses' mouth.He states that the Arihant is an "Akula",as several reports have,that the sub is basd upon an "Akula-1".Since we're also acquiring Akula-2s from Russia,for training sub crews also,it stands to reason as I've said before that the ATV/Arihant class must've incorporated Akula class technology for commonality of eqpt. and ease of operation by the same crews.The only difference is that it has VLS missiles which are of a new design,probably derived from newer Russian SSBN designs and externally a different sail design than the faster Akula-2s.

The Arihant's design is a clever one,as we're doing an OHIO conversion in reverse,since we've yet to develop a sub launched ICBM.However,I'm sure that both an ICBM and a long range N-tipped Tomahawk class cruise missile is in the works for our nuclear subs.Pak can similarly adapt a Chinese sub-launched cruise missile for use onto its conventional Agostas or any Chinese subs that it might acquire like the Song or Yuan class.It does not really need a nuclear sub for its sub launched strategic deterrent.A few conventional subs with cruise missiles would suffice for it,unlike India,which has to deal with China plus Pak.In any case given the geography of India and Pak,deterring even land and air launched nuke tipped missiles would be almost impossible to counter by either side.

As some have well said,in the current scenario today,with the Cold War over,the emphasis is not upon MAD between the superpowers,but dealing with rogue nuclear states like Pak and NoKo and possibly Iran,and that the proliferation of more conventional conflicts,are better dealt by using PGMs delivered by UCAVs and LR missiles like the Tomahawk.That is why even the IN have acquired land attack versions of the Klub and have co-developed Brahmos,with the hypersonic version to come later on.The advent of cyberwarfare also means that one can disarm an enemy by destroying his C4I and paralysing his economy and infrastructure through cyberwarfare,with the recent Chinese trial attacks taking place against US and other western targets.

PGMs accurately hitting their targets,especially eliminating those of enenmy/terrorist leadership,as is being done in the current hotspots,require a huge quantity of such missiles.In GW1,the US found that with the sheer scale and pace of the conflict,it was very rapidly running out of Tomahawk missiles and other PGMs.It also required a variety of platforms-warships,subs and aircraft for the same.The conversion of old SSBNs as the US and Russia are doing,make it possible for these large behemoths of the sea to house a couple of hundred such missiles aboard a sub,with additional special forces and their eqpt.,UUVs, etc. to deal with multiple tasks.Very correctly a member has pointed out why such current SSGNs are of far larger size than previous attack subs.It appears that Brahmos,Klub and a future Indian LR cruise missile are going to be the principal missiles carried aboard our subs.

Therefore,the IN needs both conventional subs equipped with both Brahmos and Klub,as well as larger SSGNs,both Akulas and future stretched versions of the ATV/Arihant.The task now is to accelerate our acquisition of subs built both at home and from abroad,both nculear and conventional to overcome the delays being experienced.

[John Snow]

A few conventional subs with cruise missiles would suffice for it,unlike India,which has to deal with China plus Pak.In any case given the geography of India and Pak,deterring even land and air launched nuke tipped missiles would be almost impossible to counter by either side.

This was my reasoning that we Need ICBM to understand Chinese be it as spoken in Mangolia or Shanghai

[tsarkar]

Austin – I thought you knew this. The Russian name for what NATO calls Typhoon is Akula. And the Russian name for what NATO calls Akula is Schuka. So what the good ambassador meant was that we’re getting a top class SSBN similar to the Typhoon.

SKrishna, as usual Prasun keeps recycling material that others mistakenly think is true in the absence of information.

The six cell VLS is a lightweight Klub launcher for smaller corvette sized ships. The poster is widely shown in international shows. Prasun skimmed it someplace and is labeling it as ATV VLS. Please note that its length 9500 mm / 9.5 meters corresponds to 3M-54TE Klub dimensions 8.92 meters. Shourya length is 10.4 meters – much more than the 9.5 meters shown in the poster.

Same goes for the cylindrical VLS for submarines. Its length is 10 meters, far less than what is required for the Shourya.

The sail and CIC posters are widely shown in international shows, usually for the Amur class. It dovetails with the Amur sail and CIC picture in BR Amur web page http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Amur.html The CIC may or may not be replicated in the ATV, since designers use modular components. The sail definitely needs to be larger for the 112 meter ATV vis-a-vis the 66 meters Amur.

The torpedo loading mechanism is for the Kilo/Amur class. http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... o8779.html Please note that the ATV has a hull diameter larger than Kilo, so not sure whether the same mechanism has been replicated.

Those reading Prasun’s BS need to understand one fact. Just like an Ambassador and a Merc have four wheels, a bonnet and a boot, that doesn’t make either similar or interchangeable.

[Rahul M]

tsarkar saab, do you have anything to add on possible roles for the arihant class ?
is multi-purpose SSBN/SSGN the way to go rather than pure SSBN, as some are advocating ?

[Philip]

Rahul,top priority has been stated as being to carry the most survivable part of our S-deterrent and the first ATV is going to be a learning experience,as even if it is equipped with an ICBM,it can only carry four of them and will also have to have on board,LR-cruise missiles if it has as suspected larger 650mm tubes too.Future subs once a tested ICBM has been developed will have to be larger to carry more such missiles.However,the design is such that the same class of sub and size could fulfil the role of an SSGN if need be,with the silos carrying K-15 land attack missiles with conventional warheads as in modified OHIOs.

This design fits in the IN's philosophy even with its surface warships,in that they all posses a good multi-role capability and are not specialist vessels slanted towards either ASW or AAW,etc. ,since we don not have a huge budget like the US which can afford to build several specialised classes of ships and subs.

[Shankar]

olks forgive me for coming up with this question.

We know L&T has contributed to this effort

Why is it that BHPV which also has faabrication experience in cryogenic vessels etc which demand high quality weldments is not being used in this effort?

Also L&T facilities are located in the west coast that too close to TSP. BHPV is in Vizag logistics wise it makes emminent sense no?

What is the role of BHEL, the steam turbines, the generators and the propulsion motors ( I am guessing they will be DC)
are they all contributing? Lots of money to make by PSU if they deliver and co ordinate

BHPV
http://www.bhpvl.com/facilities.htm

L&T
http://www.larsentoubro.com/lntcorporat ... res=P_MIPD

for ready reference

TIA

Maybe can answer this question with some authority

BHPV has excellent infrastructure and technical manpower but thier deliver is so bad that once number one air separation manufacturing unit in the country now no one orders on them simply because the minimum delivery is 18-24 months even government units have stopped ordering on BHPV

The cryogenic engineering group of BHPV have mostly left and joined Air Liquide Engineering who initially provided the cryogenic technology to BHPV in 80s

The project management aspect is horrible leading to absurd delivery period - an organisation which was a pride of PSU s in 80 making everything from cryogenic tanks and plants the first 1500 tons per day ASu in Vizag steel was made in BHPV today does not get a sinle order
They used to make crackers reactors for refinery and the whole lot
Today because of chalta hai attitude which plague most of our PSU s it is struggling to survive
can give you some personal experiences but just thought bettrer of it

Now you no why no order for Arihant on BHPV

[enqyoob]

6000 tons is just the empty weight and submerged combat weight is in the range of 9-12,000 tons

Allo! According to my madarssa Abdul bin Archimedes physics text, the weight of water displaced = weight of sub for neutral buoyancy. If the ballast tanks are empty and the thing is still neutrally buoyant, that is the max weight, hey? So there must be a substantial difference between the volumes of the 6000 ton sub and the 12000 ton sub, very visible externally? hain?

[Shankar]

the ratio of modern nuclear subs surfaced empty to submerged fully loaded is 1:1.3/1.35
Using htis rule of thumb weight of Arihant when fully loaded and submerged is approximately 8500-9000 tons same displacement as Akula 2

The russian ambassador when he said this is akula he meant exactly that an akula 2 like one we are getting from Russia but made in India and not a Typhhon type SSBN as TS has mentioned . Many people in the western world is not comfortable with our getting the capability to make akula 2 type submarine and strangely may be understandably our government is also giving one contradictory statement after another along with the pack oF DDM

Arihant is a modified akula 2 with capability to fire agni 3 SLBM from day one after it has cleared sea trials and weapons fring trail .it will never carry cruise missiles that will be loaded on the kilos and akula 2s we are leasing

This class of submarine is a stand alone class built and will be operated with one single purpose -deliver unacceptable damage in even of a nuclear strike on our land to any country not just china and that is why Russia has helped us so much including 60% of the components -get the drift which country I am referring to.

Of three in first batch one will be always in vizag for trail upgrade repair etc other two escorted by nerpa and her sister will be patrolling the oceans never seen or heard most likely in the pacific off caist of china and may be US too .

let us never forget our main permanent deterance have to be against US ,for china it is second strike capability

Pakistan is no where in the equation so naturally Pakistan navy chief is not worried - Arihant may never see the arabian sea in her long hopefully uneventful life

[Shankar]

5,700-7,500 tons Surfaced
7,900-9,100 tons Submerged
7,900-9,500 tons Submerged - Akula II
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/971.htm

[Shankar]

Typhoon class

# Length: about 175 m (574 ft)
# Beam: 23 m (75 ft)
# Draft: 12 m (38 ft)
# Displacement:

* Surfaced: 23,200-24,500 tons
* Submerged: 33,800-48,000 tons
http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Typhoon ... marine.htm

I really don't understand why TS compared arihant to Typhhon class from the quoted russian ambassadors statement - you mean the russian ambassador does not know the diffrence between a Typhoon class SSBN and Akula 2 class SSN - what is the point in distorting russian ambassadors statement so blatantly like putting word in his mouth and creating confusion all around people thinking we made something like a typhhon and the whole project looses credibility to international world

[Shankar]

Austin – I thought you knew this. The Russian name for what NATO calls Typhoon is Akula. And the Russian name for what NATO calls Akula is Schuka. So what the good ambassador meant was that we’re getting a top class SSBN similar to the Typhoon.

[enqyoob]

Gee! Let's see: From the DDm report of the Arihant launch:

110 m long, 11 m wide, 6000 tons submerged displacement.

Do these satisfy Abdul bin Archimedes?

Ignoring the Sail and approximating the shape by a cylinder,

(Pi*11^2)/4 * 110 = 10448.35m^3, OK 10,000 m^3.

Water density is 1000 kg/m^3, so mass displaced is 10,000 hajaar = 10,000,000 kg

So max weight with all ballast tanks blown is quite a bit less than 10,000 tons. Shape is not a cylinder, or even rounded cylinder, the back part tapers down a lot, so the 6000 - 7500 range is marginally credible to allow some margin for the ballast tanks, though it MAY be underestimating a bit.

Can't be 12,000 tons as far as I can see. Then again, how credible is the 12000 ton figure for the Akula SSN? anyone have its dimensions?

[tsarkar]

Rahul – I view it as a pure strategic asset, ie, SSBN.

In my opinion, it will primarily be used to fine tune the subsystems and assist in developing an operational doctrine (political/military/strategic/tactical)

Most people have an incorrect notion that assets are thrown into battle head on (like the TV serial Mahabharat) and the assets punch through sheer brute force of either technology or manpower.

In a multi environment battlespace (air/sea/land/space/cyber/media/economic/socio-cultural/political), every time we acquire an asset, we need to evaluate on what is the best way to employ an asset, what are its strengths, what are its weaknesses, the areas of our capabilities will it boost and the areas of our opponents weaknesses it will exploit.
We can draw parallels with the Su-30. In its initial years, IAF simply absorbed the technology and explored ways in employing the asset. Thereafter it started employing it, not for tactical uses, but as a strategic force multiplier – like deploying from Pune to Car Nicobar within hours. So while at a local level, a MiG-21 or LCA can hold ground, while the Su30 can provide a sustained boost to operations (given the platform’s endurance) to multiple locations. This is what force multiplication is all about.

Strategic deterrence for India, in my opinion, at a very basic and primitive level, will require –
1. Preventing a conventional war like 1962 by threatening a nuclear escalation (this is ruled out by our NFU policy).
2. Restricting a conventional war like Kargil by threatening a nuclear escalation (this was very successfully implemented. The Pakis couldn’t reinforce their logistics once India upped the stakes and they blinked first).
3. Prevent our opponents from using their nuclear weapon by threatening MAD.

Strategic deterrence requires reliability. For example, if an artillery piece misfires, you can use another piece, a BM-21, an airstrike or other means to achieve the desired effect. However when an Agni or Sagarika is fired, you need the precise desired effect.

So we won’t be seeing the Arihant do a Crimson Tide role of destroying Chinese SSK/SSN and taking missiles in South China Sea to nuke Shanghai.

Nor will it perform the role of USSR Delta submarines. The school bus shaped Delta is hydrodynamically noisy and it operated close to USSR territorial waters, escorted by SSNs, with support from land based and surface based assets.

India’s large number of survey ships will do route surveys in Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal and the Indian Ocean. Mission planners will identify patrol billets for Arihant using the survey data. Thereafter Arihant will practice its tradecraft – stealthily carrying its package, avoiding detection and deploying it when ordered. In between, design flaws/enhancements will be identified and worked upon. And hone our political/military/strategic/tactical operational skills. Submarines are always single role ships. They’re dead meat in the hands of aircraft and surface ships if they try too many stunts. A non-swimout torpedo launch is a noisy affair and a dead giveaway from miles away.

Shankar – I wrote “we’re getting a top class SSBN similar to the Typhoon”, that meant the ambassador said we’re getting a SSBM having the best Russian features, and not actually a Typhoon. Having said that, no one transfers their top of the line technology. The ATV was always a Charlie design with a single VM-5M reactor and a small plug added for the four missile silos giving very modest – yet adequate - capabilities of 12 knots surfaced and 24 knots submerged. Do refer Sandeep Unnithan’s sketches.

[Austin]

tsarkar , that was a nice assessment from you , was waiting for your inputs.

I was aware of the term Akula Russian uses and common used term Akula to define Schuka-B , but i did not find any commonality between the Russian beast and Indian angel.

So yes the ambassador probably means an SSBN with best features , and you are right that ATV was always a charlie with modification that is what they still refer to it as.

[Shankar]

Do these satisfy Abdul bin Archimedes?

Ignoring the Sail and approximating the shape by a cylinder,

(Pi*11^2)/4 * 110 = 10448.35m^3, OK 10,000 m^3.

Water density is 1000 kg/m^3, so mass displaced is 10,000 hajaar = 10,000,000 kg

Now just for argument sake consider Arihant Dia as 13. 5 meter the size required to take in VM5/OK 650 reactor

water displaced fully submerged = 3.142 * 13.5x13.5/4 *110 = 15747 m3

since the tail section have to be tapered the actual volume of water displaced is atleast 30% less ( conical volume )

Actual water displaced = 15747 x0.7 = 11022 m3 equivalent to 11000 tons whic is more or less the exact displacemnet of full blooded akula 2 during normal opearation

so the Arihant is an indian manufactured Akula 2 modified with Borei overlap for the missile tube that section is from borei no doubt with a submerged displacement between 9000-11000 tons .The diffrence comes from the estimated length of the hull at 110 meter length it will match the published figures of 971 class

It has vm5 reactor with OK 650 core . So the shape of the hull more or less conforms if not exact replica of Akula 2 and nor charlie type for sure - the akula 2 s being leased serve no purpose in training unless we use the same reactor system vm5 and core ok 650 in Arihant

That is why all the secrecy during launch -the centra section housing the reactor is 13.5 meter not 11 meter and length is more than akula 2 to house the missile section

[SKrishna]

Now Livefist has the same illustrations of ATV that I posted earlier from a "Pariah's" blog:

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/il ... rpene.html


I repeat my question. DOES THE ARIHANT LOOK LIKE THIS?

[Shankar]

that is why the laucnh was done submerged before press -in that situation you can no way guess the maximum diameter of the hull whcih would have given out the VM5/OK650 heart of the submarine . In case of submerged launch with only 30 % of the hull visible it is impossible to judge by our standard ddm the exact diameter of the hull near and around the reactor core

[Shankar]

no dont think so

Arihant should be fatter in centre for the reactor core and missile launch tubes and then sharply tapering to the props -with forward slanting sail and large bow mounted sonar dome in front and torpedo tubes arranged vertically along side

[Shankar]

Shankar – I wrote “we’re getting a top class SSBN similar to the Typhoon”, that meant the ambassador said we’re getting a SSBM having the best Russian features, and not actually a Typhoon. Having said that, no one transfers their top of the line technology. The ATV was always a Charlie design with a single VM-5M reactor and a small plug added for the four missile silos giving very modest – yet adequate - capabilities of 12 knots surfaced and 24 knots submerged. Do refer Sandeep Unnithan’s sketches.

atv was a charlie design not arihant - that never worked out -so the russians came in andhelped us out with afar better design -the akula 2 icluding the pressurized light water reactor and the steel required to make it and the training for the indian navy personnel at sevmash

and the operational training on akula 2 nerpa and may be another one which will a hve the dual purpose of protecting our arihant as well as train our operating personnel it will serve the purpose of a chase submarine just like mirage 2000 did for LCA

[Shankar]

the Charlie class was and is one of the noisiest nuclear sub and no way IN will accept that to base its final deterant - a LA class boat will take it out in less than 15 minutes -No TS Arihant cannot be Charlie -just make no sense in the whole picture

[Shankar]

Project 670 / Charlie I Project 670M / Charlie II
Displacement (tons): 4,000 surfaced
5,000 submerged 4,500 surfaced
5,400 submerged
Speed (kts): 23 knots dived
16 kts surfaced
Dimensions (m): 94.0 meters long
10.0 meters beam
8.0 meters draft 102.0 meters long
10.0 meters beam
8.0 meters draft
Propulsion 1 VM-5 pressurized-water nuclear reactor
1 steam turbine 20,000 shp
1 5-bladed propeller
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/theater/670.htm

TS - no way Arihant belongs to this class - check the specs and whatever has come out in the press -the answer is self evident

[Austin]

the Charlie class was and is one of the noisiest nuclear sub and no way IN will accept that to base its final deterant - a LA class boat will take it out in less than 15 minutes -No TS Arihant cannot be Charlie -just make no sense in the whole picture

Ok to keep you happy , its a mini-Borei and its quiter than Virginia

Now Livefist has the same illustrations of ATV that I posted earlier from a "Pariah's" blog:

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/il ... rpene.html


I repeat my question. DOES THE ARIHANT LOOK LIKE THIS?
Now Livefist has the same illustrations of ATV that I posted earlier from a "Pariah's" blog:

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/il ... rpene.html

I repeat my question. DOES THE ARIHANT LOOK LIKE THIS?

Harpreet CGI is closest to the real thing

[SKrishna]

the Charlie class was and is one of the noisiest nuclear sub and no way IN will accept that to base its final deterant - a LA class boat will take it out in less than 15 minutes -No TS Arihant cannot be Charlie -just make no sense in the whole picture

Ok to keep you happy , its a mini-Borei and its quiter than Virginia

Now Livefist has the same illustrations of ATV that I posted earlier from a "Pariah's" blog:

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/il ... rpene.html


I repeat my question. DOES THE ARIHANT LOOK LIKE THIS?
Now Livefist has the same illustrations of ATV that I posted earlier from a "Pariah's" blog:

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/07/il ... rpene.html

I repeat my question. DOES THE ARIHANT LOOK LIKE THIS?

Harpreet CGI is closest to the real thing

Thanks that rests the case

[krishna_krishna]

Please check the following link. Author is well know here but chaiwala says the triple launcher tube for the launch is the most accurate :

deleted

[John Snow]

Thank you Shankar ji.

Now a small follow up.

Moving to propulsion systems..

BHEL Haridwar makes lots of DC motors, control systems, BHEL Hyderabad makes Turbines

Will they get a chance to make the steam turbines, steam generators, heat exchangers and DC motors?


{ PS I knew about BHPV, I also know MIDHANI, HEC Ranchi, but BHEL HMT were different, hope atleast they are doing something. I read BHEL lost a huge bid to PRC in a GOI order in Power generation systems recently}

Once again thanks in advance for your (anticipated )reply.

Regards

[jaladipc]

to the folks of BR,

Take it for granted or not,here is the news from chaiwallah related to Mr.Arihant aka ATV

Its a 7500tonn SSBN/SSGN with submerged displacement of 9000-11700 tonns.and a length of over 110m with a diameter between 13-14m.Currently the boomer cum attack submarine is equipped with a low-powered( limitation is such that an efficiency factor of only 80% ) local built PHWR which can let the boy to speed upto 25 knots submerged.

Since its a multipurpose class,it can take both SLBM`s or AShM`s. the weapon(i mean missile) compartment is really modular such that it can take both kinds of missiles.Specially any type of missile of any size.(IT is really modular).
Given the info,its really meant to be a test bed for the future generations ahead.So the only hurdle that we are lacking so far ,which is a sea based nuclear deterrent will be overcomed for time being.But the actual deterrent is in the making.
Since india already tested the russian version of submarine reactor 5 years back in the sea,this time we are testing our own reactor.
The next hulls are estimated to be enlarged versions with dual missile compartments in each.And includes a high cpacity factor nuclear reactor which takes in 40% HEU.

since we are still in the learning curve and yet have to venture in to a sustained developmental curve--the next two babies will also be a minimal deterrent as well(having a flexibility to be converted into either SSBN/SSGN at any point of time)

Right now,a whole new weapon control system which is multipurpose is nearing the completion.Which means,even though you change the missiles in the weapon bay,you dont have to worry abt the control systems.(Infact they are terming it as first of its kind ever developed in India)
As soon as the 4th hulls rolls out,the gained experience will be applied to the later generations which can be called as indian 2nd gen.

The weapons pay can take in any missile with a diameter of 2.1m and a length of around 13 m.( this clears all the yindoo cruel thoughts in the darkness

due to time constraints i have to end the details now.and will roll down the specs of 2nd gen on my next visit

P.S: As i told in my previous post,the next gen will have mixed content propulsion.

[Kanson]

Austin – I thought you knew this. The Russian name for what NATO calls Typhoon is Akula. And the Russian name for what NATO calls Akula is Schuka. So what the good ambassador meant was that we’re getting a top class SSBN similar to the Typhoon.

First it was Borei, then it got downgraded to extended Charlie, and there comes a twist as someone claiming it as modified kilo/lada, then there is slight reference to Granay. Finally when everyone was about to settle on Akula there comes an anti-climax that it is typhoon. Ooops, is there any sub left in Russian arsenal ?

As i jog my memory, i could never remember any news that came in english from both sides about Akula(Nato) lease referring it as Shchuka/Schuka alone. Either it was Akula or Akula with Shchuka/Schuka.

It is common understanding that, as in case with Charlie lease, leasing of Akula includes transfer of Akula design. Further, training of several sets of sub crews on Akula gives some indication that ATV and Akula share similar equipments.

[Kanson]

So we won’t be seeing the Arihant do a Crimson Tide role of destroying Chinese SSK/SSN and taking missiles in South China Sea to nuke Shanghai.

You mean, SSBN wont carry any torpedoes. Or even if they carry it wont be used in case of self defence ?

India’s large number of survey ships will do route surveys in Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal and the Indian Ocean. Mission planners will identify patrol billets for Arihant using the survey data. Thereafter Arihant will practice its tradecraft – stealthily carrying its package, avoiding detection and deploying it when ordered.

These things with range of missile(k-15) being ~700km ? and sub acting as second strike platform ? To realise what you mentioned the missile range should be several thousand kilometers. Until that time, it will be used in more than one role depending on the situation including what you mentioned for honing the skills and developing the doctrine.

[Kanson]

with a low-powered( limitation is such that an efficiency factor of only 80% ) local built PHWR which can let the boy to speed upto 25 knots submerged.

You mean PWR ? and the rating could be even lower till it consistently proves it is reliable.

[shiv]

Folks speaking of noise levels and Arihant - didn't the news say that the stem turbines will first be fed from outside after which the nuke reactor will gradually reach criticality and "go on steam" so to speak.

The whole idea sounds funny to me but I know nothing of these things. I suppose it makes sense to keep the reactor dormant with Cadmium or whatever rods (eating neutrons I guess) until the sub is ready to go on steam.

But still the concept sounds interesting. They will burn firewood and coal outside and feed steam to the sub and run its turbines and then switch on the nuclear kettle.