Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

[Shameek]

How about The Hunt for Red October ! Starring The great Sean Connery.

Ankit

Its not a very good 'sub' movie. It might be entertaining to watch, but thats pretty much it.

[Jagan]

I live in US, I would NEVER serve Barak Obama.........

There is no honor in posting such pics...

If you were a US citizen, I would expect you to serve the US constitution (not Mr Obama) whether you were of Indian origin or not. It would be perfectly honourable to do so by being a member of the US military if you so chose.

End of comment.

I would like to add - there is nothing wrong with those two Sikhs in the British army. for all we know they are either born, or were raised there and are full citizens of that country. It IS the honorable thing to do for any citizen to serve his country -whether his natural born or adopted.

[pgbhat]

I live in US, I would NEVER serve Barak Obama.........

There is no honor in posting such pics...

US AFAIK is not a one man monarchy.

[vardhank]

Bob,
Thanks for the inputs.
Another one though. Between the F-22 and the F-35, why is it that the air superiority jet gets better stealth than the strike one?
As in (and I may be completely wrong here) isn't the strike jet the one that goes into enemy territory, facing radar, defending aircraft and SAMs? Shouldn't that have serious stealth so it can go in, possibly even unescorted, and get out without the enemy knowing who the hell hit them? When it comes to air defence, well, air defence is a given: if I'm sending over a strike mission, I don't expect to be allowed in unhindered. I'd have a fair idea of where the closest air bases are, and from what quarter I should expect resistance.
Of course, it's lovely to have an air defence jet that can't be spotted, but why then the short shrift to the F-35?

[Rahul M]

Down Periscope.

hilarious movie !! anyone remembers the dolphin impersonation(dolphination ?) by the sonar operator to throw off the attack submarine ?

Bu that still leaves the doubt in my mind why would CPMFs like the CRPF & CISF(especially them) would want to move to INSAS, when using an AK would have been cheaper and easier to handle for the comparatively lesser trained personnel (IMHO). ALso a force like CISF is more likely to see a Fidayeen type attack, where the attckers can't be expected to carry their fallen comrades back. I thought in a terrorist attck on an institution (airport/parliament/offices) etc, the aim of the security personnel should be to kill and not to injure.

good point. although I think CRPF et al use a combination of INSAS and AK-47.
only reason I can think of is economics. for AK's you have to buy them from abroad in foreign exchange while INSAS you can make in house and the money goes into your own economy.
that, and the commonality with IA might come in useful during wartime.

this is entirely my guess so take it FWIW.

also, the maintenance aspect has to be understood in context, ak-47 and family catered to the lowest denomination of soviet forces - the conscripts. any volunteer force, including central police forces are expected to be better trained, simply because they are career soldiers and are in the job for a much longer time. maintaining guns are a normal part of any soldiers' routine.

[sourab_c]

Bob,
Thanks for the inputs.
Another one though. Between the F-22 and the F-35, why is it that the air superiority jet gets better stealth than the strike one?
As in (and I may be completely wrong here) isn't the strike jet the one that goes into enemy territory, facing radar, defending aircraft and SAMs? Shouldn't that have serious stealth so it can go in, possibly even unescorted, and get out without the enemy knowing who the hell hit them? When it comes to air defence, well, air defence is a given: if I'm sending over a strike mission, I don't expect to be allowed in unhindered. I'd have a fair idea of where the closest air bases are, and from what quarter I should expect resistance.
Of course, it's lovely to have an air defence jet that can't be spotted, but why then the short shrift to the F-35?

F-35 is a Multi Role Aircraft while F-22 is an Air superiority Aircraft.

As far as your question goes, I believe it has something to do with the extra amount of payload that is required for deep strike missions. This puts certain design restrictions and that level of stealth may not be achieved. F-22 for example has its weapons in stealth too, this may not be possible for a F-35. Maybe gurus can shed more light on this.

[Drevin]

vardhank let me slightly change your point of view momentarily.

On the first day of war what is the greatest thing in a pilots mind ..... air dominance.

To achieve air dominance you need best of breed pilots and best of breed planes .... Thats why you have the F22.

Say on the 3rd week of war you realize you need to neutralize a ground threat. Lets assume you have air dominance. Thats when your strike fighter comes in ..... aka F35 ... far weaker than the F22 because its gonna be used in sanitized space.

Forget about the advantages of SAM or airdefence ...... stand-off weapons and air tactics are so good ..... the F35 pilot is so safe .... i'd say he is pampered. Also never forget an F35 is 1/4th the price of an F22. Risk a F35 being shot down ...but not an F22. Too many secrets on the Raptor. It will always fly too high and too fast and invisible.

jmt

[Bolasani]

Hi all,

I was looking for information on how well any MBT can withstand a nuclear explosion. I don't seem to find any open source information about this aspect. Could somebody please point out any location where there is more information or even informed speculation.

TIA

Regards
Bharat

[Rahul M]

NO MBT can survive a nuclear bomb bang on its head.
NOTHING can survive such a thing !!

if however it was outside the blast radius of the bomb it'll deploy in NBC mode (all modern tanks/APCs have this) which will protect its crew and allow them to operate.

there are however radiation limits up to which tanks can operate.

[k prasad]

A bit of perspective abt Stealth vs Non-Stealth (courtesy Sweetman at AI09) - having stealth does impede weapons load, even in non-stealth mode. As an eg, the F-16 carries 1.5x the load that an F-35 can carry even with external pylons.

That issue is even worse for a dedicated A2A fighter like the raptor... hence the need for an F-35 with less stealth but more carrying capacity.

[anirban_aim]

Cross posting from the Mayanmar thread,

Gurus/ Other Gyanis,

I have hearing from some people in the know, for some time that once the full scale production of the T-90s start in India (Held for some time due to technology transfer issues, now first completely India built tank is supposed to roll out on Aug 24th), and their nos. in service are significantly beefed up, we might start transferring some of our old T-55 tanks to Myanmar (to counter the Chinese depth), Afganistan (depending upon the then stability of the Govt. in power then, no transfers, if their is a perceptible risk of them falling in the hands of jihadists) and some central and west african countries (To further our oil intrests) any body out there who can confirm or deny. Or is it just speculation.

[Shubham]

Just wanted to confirm , are magnetron (which are used in radars etc) manufactured in India ?

[vardhank]

Hi Drevin,
Thanks. I'm a bit confused here though, largely because of the possible Indian scenarios thread. The last one I read was Vivek Ahuja's India-China scenario, where we send strike fighters into Tibet. No real 'air dominance' had been established at that point. True, we'd hurled in some Brahmos to take care of radar units, but that was it.
And 'air dominance' - what would that mean, really? In the first Gulf War, the USAF General (Horner?) who demanded his 30 days of unceasing air war sent in strike fighters, sometime escorted, sometimes not, to take care of air and ground defences. The first wave targetted radar and SAM sites, and so on,and I expect there was some element of luring Iraqi air defence fighters to their doom, but no real system, AFAIK, of letting air superiority jets simply hang around in Iraqi airspace and shooting down anything the Iraqis sent up.
I understand the logic of the next poster (Ravi? sorry, forgot who it was), of stealth tech taking up so much space that you had to make a compromise between stealth and useful payload. But in that case, why not reverse the sizes of strike/air superiority fighters? As in, make the strike fighters the really big boys, with good payload and stealth, and keep the dominance jets small and reasonably stealthy, with the LO tech making up for the low weapons load?

[Drevin]

From what you are saying looks like you would have prefered a massive F15E attack Hmm.
Maybe it would have worked. But facts say that USAF choose to saturate iraq with thousands of tomahawks first, gain air dominance first with a2a eagles. So in this case (scenario 1)also heavy strike assets weren't used. The lowest cost option was used. Both material and personel (pilots) costs.

Scenario2: In a confrontation between equals invariably strike operations never happen in the initial battle. Its air dominance alone. Thats why the big heavy fighters are dedicated for A-2-A.

I can't think of a scenario where heavy strike fighters were used first. I guess its not logical.

In the case of India vs china its neither scenario 1 or 2 above. It would be scenario 3 where in the smaller opponent takes on the bigger one. My guess is since China is so vast .... we have no other option but to use our heavy a2a fighter in an a2g role.

But once we get the MMRCA(say Rafale) the MKI goes back to being a A2A fighter first and formost. Air-dominance pilots are a different breed from bombing pilots.

So the MKI/Pak-fa would be the first wave into chinese territory. So Pak-fa+MKI versus J11's, J12's etc and Rafale follows later on. Rafale is designed to perform superbly in strike role in addition to a2a ..... its truly multi-role.

jmt (feel free to counter argue)

[Bolasani]

NO MBT can survive a nuclear bomb bang on its head.
NOTHING can survive such a thing !!

if however it was outside the blast radius of the bomb it'll deploy in NBC mode (all modern tanks/APCs have this) which will protect its crew and allow them to operate.

there are however radiation limits up to which tanks can operate.

I asked the question because I remember reading something about an M1A2 MBT being able to survive a 10Kt explosion 1/2 mile away.
Would that be outside the blast radius?

[Rahul M]

0.5 mile ~ 0.8 km (sorry I can think in SI only)

IIRC the plane jane blast radius is related to to the cube root of blast yield while the proportionality constant is a function of air density and height of explosion.
for nukes there are also additional effects like EMP and thermal radiation. just the later might be enough to cause explosions in external fuel drums that most MBTs carry even if they are some distance away. EMP will of course fry a tanks electronics if not radiation hardened even further away.

Would that be outside the blast radius?

nope ! see here. this page has some nice figures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of ... he_effects

[vardhank]

Drevin,
That's fine, makes sense, I expect.
How would an air dominance battle go, though? Would we for example send our MKIs into TSP airspace, hoping to get the F-16s coming in towards us, and steadily take down their numbers, so that we can send our Mirages/Jaguars/Rafales in for strikes?
In that case, how would you lure defenders when you're flying a plane that their radar cannot see? I'm sorry, I'm kind of thinking of the F-22 as using nukes to kill an ant...

[Gaur]

A bit of perspective abt Stealth vs Non-Stealth (courtesy Sweetman at AI09) - having stealth does impede weapons load, even in non-stealth mode. As an eg, the F-16 carries 1.5x the load that an F-35 can carry even with external pylons.

That issue is even worse for a dedicated A2A fighter like the raptor... hence the need for an F-35 with less stealth but more carrying capacity.

This is confusing. F-22's internal armament is double than that of f-35. Isn't that of more importance than total carrying capacity?

[Shameek]

How would an air dominance battle go, though? Would we for example send our MKIs into TSP airspace, hoping to get the F-16s coming in towards us, and steadily take down their numbers, so that we can send our Mirages/Jaguars/Rafales in for strikes?
In that case, how would you lure defenders when you're flying a plane that their radar cannot see?

An aircraft like the F-22 is meant to gain air dominance not just by shooting down the enemy but also by acting as a deterrent. They can defend friendly airspace by being able to shoot down the enemy before they get close enough to do any damage. Another use is defending the strike aircraft. They are relatively safe from SAMs and can concentrate on taking on any aircraft that are sent up against the strike aircraft. If the enemy cannot see what shoots them down, they will be more reluctant to risk their planes and pilots. Lesser planes sent up will mean more air dominance.

[RayC]

Just wanted to confirm , are magnetron (which are used in radars etc) manufactured in India ?

Yes.

[Drevin]

Would we for example send our MKIs into TSP airspace, hoping to get the F-16s coming in towards us, and steadily take down their numbers, so that we can send our Mirages/Jaguars/Rafales in for strikes?

India vs Pakistan would be scenario 1 in my post above. i.e. india launches 1000's of nirbhay's first .....low cost option. Follow up with jaguar/mirage ..... no need for mmrca. mki will patrol the paki airspace ensuring air dominance.

Their block 50 f16 's will most likely get destroyed in the nirbhay wave. For the few f16's that escape .... will most likely flee to saudi arabia.

[RayC]

Two young men from prominent Saudi families are being probed on charges of orchestrating and filming a sexual assault on a Saudi teen-aged girl by a Nigerian driver, a high-ranking official said Tuesday...............

The phone clip shows the secondary school girl, aged 17, pleading as she is assaulted by the driver, while one of the two men, apparently her former boyfriend, hurls abuse at her.

Sources close to the investigation said the 19-year-old, who had fallen out with the girl, was egged on to exact revenge by the second Saudi accused, 23, after she rebuffed the latter's advances. The Nigerian accused of raping the girl worked as a driver for the family of the former boyfriend.

Sex Scandal Hit Conservative Saudi Arabia

[k prasad]

A bit of perspective abt Stealth vs Non-Stealth (courtesy Sweetman at AI09) - having stealth does impede weapons load, even in non-stealth mode. As an eg, the F-16 carries 1.5x the load that an F-35 can carry even with external pylons.

That issue is even worse for a dedicated A2A fighter like the raptor... hence the need for an F-35 with less stealth but more carrying capacity.

This is confusing. F-22's internal armament is double than that of f-35. Isn't that of more importance than total carrying capacity?

Only for Stealth penetrations... for normal bomb-truck roles that woud be prominent in a sanitized airspace, dropping capability is quite important - lowers ops costs and the numbers required for the same job - in a sense, it makes sure that the number of aircraft used per mission is lower, which also reduces risk.

[prahaar]

I have a query regarding the following statement about Oscar II class submarines in wiki "water is known to leak into a stationary Oscar-II craft through the propeller shafts". How true is this? I find the above statement unrealistic (is it just plain and simple psyops?).

Any gyaan about the veracity or any real technical limitation that makes the above situation unavoidable. Thanks for your time.

[RayC]

In case you guys are interested in the realtime information jsut try the magazine 'Salute to the Indian Soldier'

Contact the editor:

atul.salute@gmail.com

or log on:

www.salute.co.in

There are great articles there.

The contributors are veteran soldiers, sailors and airmen from Chiefs to the ranks and even the lighter side with wives.

Check out the joys and tribulations and the serious issues of strategy.

Maroof Raza is the boss of the show it appears and he is good!

[Gaur]

DELETED

[govardhanks]

I read in newpapers that pakis intruders are coming to kashmir by making tunnels.

Now my question is there any effective equipment that can detect someone digging along a range and depth.

Once a tunnel is formed by intruders how will we screen for them and how will we block them.

[pankajs]

A noob answer only but this is what i found.
http://int-radar.com/sar.htm

Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) is a technique for achieving high resolution while using small antennas. It is more complex than most GPR designs, since it requires all elements of the radar to be phased locked, and in addition requires precise track recovery for position correction. When a SAR is operated below 400MHz or so, it starts to penetrate soils, forest cover, ice and snow, and some man-made materials. It is therefore an ideal technique for rapidly surveying large areas to locate target objects which are concealed by soil or forest cover. In the 1990's there was a surge of interest by DARPA and the intelligence communities in imaging GPR systems. The images below show some data from that time where vehicles were parked up against thick forest cover, and the radar was flown so that it had to penetrate the trees to detect the vehicles

[pankajs]

Here is the real deal from a very authentic source

http://www.sandia.gov/RADAR/sarapps.html

Foliage and Ground Penetration.

Synthetic aperture radars offer the capability for penetrating materials which are optically opaque, and thus not visible by optical or IR techniques. Low-frequency SARs may be used under certain conditions to penetrate foliage and even soil. This provides the capability for imaging targets normally hidden by trees, brush, and other ground cover. To obtain adequate foliage and soil penetration, SARs must operate at relatively low frequencies (10's of MHz to 1 GHz).

Recent studies have shown that SAR may provide a limited capability for imaging selected underground targets, such as utility lines, arms caches, bunkers, mines, etc. Depth of penetration varies with soil conditions (moisture content, conductivity, etc.) and target size, but individual measurements have shown the capability for detecting 55-gallon drums and power lines at depths of several meters. In dry sand, penetration depths of 10's of meters are possible.

[sourab_c]

Does anyone have any more info on the following project?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/india/surya.htm

SURYA

At least one source has reported that a 12,000-km range, 80,000-kg weight ballistic missile, designated Surya, was under development. (1) The status of the Surya [Sun] ICBM program is unclear, with some report indicating that the development of this system was initiated in 1994. Conflicting reports regarding the Surya's configuration claim that it will be based on the components of the polar space launch vehicle (PSLV) and the Agni IRBM, and that it will have a range between 8000 and 12,000 kms. (2)

In October 2005 it was reported that India was developing a three state missile with solid fuel rockets in the first and second stages, and a liquid propellant rocket in the third stage. The launch weight of the missile was said to be 270 to 275 tonnes. The missile could have a 5,480 pound to 7,680 pound releasable front section with two to three warheads of 15 kilo tonne to 20 kilo tonnes each. The ICBM was being developed by combining the technology of the Agni II with that of the Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle. It was expected to have a range of more than 8,000 km. At that time it was reported that the ICBM was likely to be test-fired by 2008, and was expected to be added to the Indian armed forces' deterrence arsenal by 2015.

As of 2009 it was reported that the government had not considered an 8,000-km range ICBM.

I wont be surprised if India suddenly decides to pull these out of its basement for tests one day, just like Arihant.

[pankajs]

Till GOI opens its mouth and speaks some satya vachan all the rest is speculation. Believe and propagate whatever comes to your mind. I will wait for GOI or our resident Guru's to give us some Gyaan.

[pankajs]

Apologies for this one....
Only God, GOI or Guru's can help you on that question

[govardhanks]

Recent studies have shown that SAR may provide a limited capability for imaging selected underground targets, such as utility lines, arms caches, bunkers, mines, etc. Depth of penetration varies with soil conditions (moisture content, conductivity, etc.) and target size, but individual measurements have shown the capability for detecting 55-gallon drums and power lines at depths of several meters. In dry sand, penetration depths of 10's of meters are possible.

[/quote]

The next question is Does India have it???

[Harsha.H.D]

Hi All,

I have been lurking BRF for about an year or so and often frequented the "Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum". I'm exited to be here and look forward knowing you folks well.

Cheers,
Harsha

[Shameek]

The next question is Does India have it???

We do use SAR pods. The MKI mounts them on her belly.

[anirban_aim]

Does anyone have any more info on the following project?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/india/surya.htm

SURYA

At least one source has reported that a 12,000-km range, 80,000-kg weight ballistic missile, designated Surya, was under development. (1) The status of the Surya [Sun] ICBM program is unclear, with some report indicating that the development of this system was initiated in 1994. Conflicting reports regarding the Surya's configuration claim that it will be based on the components of the polar space launch vehicle (PSLV) and the Agni IRBM, and that it will have a range between 8000 and 12,000 kms. (2)

In October 2005 it was reported that India was developing a three state missile with solid fuel rockets in the first and second stages, and a liquid propellant rocket in the third stage. The launch weight of the missile was said to be 270 to 275 tonnes. The missile could have a 5,480 pound to 7,680 pound releasable front section with two to three warheads of 15 kilo tonne to 20 kilo tonnes each. The ICBM was being developed by combining the technology of the Agni II with that of the Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle. It was expected to have a range of more than 8,000 km. At that time it was reported that the ICBM was likely to be test-fired by 2008, and was expected to be added to the Indian armed forces' deterrence arsenal by 2015.

As of 2009 it was reported that the government had not considered an 8,000-km range ICBM.

I wont be surprised if India suddenly decides to pull these out of its basement for tests one day, just like Arihant.

I totally agree. After denying any knowledge for almost 2 decades, the ATV project was acknowledged and Arihant arrived on the scene.

I would like to think that India would want a Nuclear Capable Ballistic Missile which will be able to cover whole of China and may be its extended neighbourhood as well. Bomber sorties that deep might pose problems, also these are power projection weapons.

Since ICBMs are a touchy feely issue with the man with the big danda.... Also, it will serve to agonize the chinks, so India might like to play it low for now, atleast till we reach a point where the weapon system is fairly ready for use.

Comments and counter points most welcome

[anirban_aim]

@ Rahul M,

Hi, there is a very good short film on the NDA, made by United India Films, with help I believe from KaleidoIndia. (The same quite famous Kunal Verma & Deepti Bhalla Film), in the opening credits, it lists "Rahul S.M" as the director.

Just in case your honor & the director are the same person, my regards and sincere appreciation and thanks for a great job done.

[Rahul M]

no sirjee, I'm not the same person.
is this vid available on youtube ? remember seeing something on these lines long back.

[anirban_aim]

Yes Sir, absolutely.... (In 5 parts)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-nXMsbvo2k (Part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjnbxMtW ... re=related (Part 2 )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPAjl66S ... re=related (Part 3)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f09TgHtq ... re=related (Part 4)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw6Z2heL ... re=related (Part 5)

If I'm violating any privacy or IC norms please remove, else enjoy.. great video. The POP is just spectacular.

In case you dig the IMA as well some thing there as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwJWn4po ... PL&index=4

A great video again & the GC plays amazing violin.

[anirban_aim]

Returning for a minute to my favorite topic: The AK - 47

While we are at milking Youtube, something about the Best Rifle in the world - (Not my Words, Discovery Channel's )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQzh7A5G ... L&index=54

No but seriously, post the discussion with Ray C & Rahul , I completely understand that there are horses for courses. & there is no one best thing and no one size fits all solution.

So why this video?? Pure Indulgence man... (Hope thats acceptable behavior here)

Yuu should hear this guy - Richard Venola (Editor, Small Arms),

Some Gems: - "..... when western civilization melts down, I want an AK - 47...." ".....when you feel that click, you know, you got 30 rounds of rock and roll....." ".....The AK - 47 is a consummate assault weapon, and its going to be around long after all of us are dissolved into dust......."

I just love this man. (No pun intended, only out of apprciation )

And why do I keep going back to talking about the AK - 47, because she's is like a sexy beautiful woman, you do her once, you wanna do her all the time......

(P.S: No offence intended to women/Feminists/activists/etc; I have only respect for them)