Indian Naval Discussion

rahulg · Post by **rahulg** » 28 Aug 2009 11:02

^^[quote]This experience would help us during the IAC trials. And the cost issue would also get resolved
The main problem might be that we would not have any shipyard to handle this refit.[/quote]

Then lets build the shipyard first

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Aug 2009 12:13

John,which articles please? An old report said that the Gorky buy was also linked to the lease of two Akulas,which is probably why the extra costs and byzantine bargaining is going on,maybe some unmentionable clauses to the deal.

Yes,the IN should take make some emergency buys of SHs from the UK.I think that there are a few dozen of them still available.The Brits tried some innovations to the engine blades (probably affected from use in desert/dusty conditions in Iraq and Afghanistan) which were a failure if I remember correctly,one reason why they pensioned them off early too.All the GR versions have been doing yeoman service in Iraq and Afghanistan.The Viraat/IN need to have at least 16+ of them available for use in any crisis.The PN has been supplied by the US with surface,sub and air launched Harpoons for their subs and P-3 Orions and also possess similar launched Exocets.One good reason why we are buying more KA-31 AEW helos from Russia.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 28 Aug 2009 20:05

EXCLUSIVE: Navy's MiG-29K Squadron To Be Called "Black Panthers" - LiveFist
The Navy's brand new INAS 303 squadron is being christened "Black Panthers" and will get its first four MiG-29Ks in late October or early November. The squadron emblem (to the right) will be painted on the tails of all the MiG-29Ks is a snarling Black Panther, with a red mouth and nose, and yellow eyes. According to sources, there had been talk of naming the squadron "Sea Wolves", though the Navy finally took a call to name the squadron after a big cat, like the White Tigers squadron is.

Sources at Naval HQ indicate that Cdr Theophilus is tipped to take over as the first Commanding Officer of the Black Panthers squadron. Cd Theophilus currently heads the Intensive Flying & Testing Unit (IFTU) that has been raised in anticipation of the MiG-29K.

The contract for 16 MiG-29K jets was signed with RAC-MiG on Jan 20, 2004 for $740.35-million, with an agreed delivery commencement date of June 2007 (more than two years late, as usual).

maz · Post by **maz** » 28 Aug 2009 23:16

Mr Mittal, please contact me at mmazumdar at hotmail com

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Aug 2009 23:28

this was posted ??

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/08/se ... again.html

Coincidentally, when Navy Chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta was asked this afternoon about (erroneous) reports that the Harrier fleet had been grounded following the August 21 crash, he thundered, "Who has grounded them? Have you grounded them? I certainly have not." Obviously he's right. The fleet was never grounded. No recommendation was made by the Navy in Goa to HQ to effect grounding of the fleet, simply because they are thorough professionals. Nobody wants a knee-jerk grounding without understanding precisely what made the aircraft go down. After any crash, there is an default period -- the length of which varies -- of no flight for the type, during which a laid-down routine of specific tests are conducted. This is not the same as grounding the fleet, a far more serious decision whenever it is taken. The checks conducted during the post-crash period may lead to a recommendation for fleet grounding, but in this case it did not happen, thankfully. Grounding a fleet is an unnerving, difficult decision on any military commander.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 28 Aug 2009 23:36

Kakarat wrote:EXCLUSIVE: Navy's MiG-29K Squadron To Be Called "Black Panthers" - LiveFist
The Navy's brand new INAS 303 squadron is being christened "Black Panthers" and will get its first four MiG-29Ks in late October or early November. The squadron emblem (to the right) will be painted on the tails of all the MiG-29Ks is a snarling Black Panther, with a red mouth and nose, and yellow eyes. According to sources, there had been talk of naming the squadron "Sea Wolves", though the Navy finally took a call to name the squadron after a big cat, like the White Tigers squadron is.

I was wondering about the badge on the tail in this series

http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2009/08/n ... kc-09.html

black panthers it is!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QKkSf03VuFY/S ... C00313.JPG

John · Post by **John** » 28 Aug 2009 23:49

Philip wrote:John,which articles please? An old report said that the Gorky buy was also linked to the lease of two Akulas,which is probably why the extra costs and byzantine bargaining is going on,maybe some unmentionable clauses to the deal.

It was article posted last month on Gorshkov it was posted here and discussed i will try to dig it up. As for Gorshkov's cost it has nothing to do with Akula, the reason for price hike. Is Russian under estimated the work involved and gave low ball hoping to make up for it in followup deals

Willy wrote:Today's TOI carries an article that Pipava shipyard has bid to build seven warships for the Indian Navy. Anyone have any idea which ships these are?

They were hoping to win the contract for offshore patrol vessels last year, not sure if that is the one.

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 29 Aug 2009 02:15

Progress report on INS Shivalik by the CNS:

One, he said the INS Shivalik, underwent a successful full-power test on August 24, and is likely to be commissioned in the next two months. "It was my fervent deseire to see Shivalik commissioned in my time. She's almost there, but not quite," he said.

Confirmation of delay in Scorpene program:

We have lost a lot of time no doubt. Mazagon Docks is required to procure certain material from France, whilst the hull construction activity is going on here. There has been a little phase difference in this respect, and we are trying to resolve it. But we have lost a lot of time. MDL has to do something contractual to progress it.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/08/na ... -call.html

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Aug 2009 02:16

Jagan wrote: black panthers it is!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QKkSf03VuFY/S ... C00313.JPG

Love the name. The emblem needs plenty of work.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 29 Aug 2009 09:07

Scorpene project will cost Rs 2,000 cr more
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 946064.cms

Scorpene project will cost Rs 2,000 cr more
Rajat Pandit, TNN 29 August 2009, 12:42am IST
Print Email Discuss Bookmark/Share Save Comment Text Size: |

NEW DELHI: India will have to soon shell out well over Rs 2,000 crore more to French armament companies if it does not want its ongoing mammoth Rs 18,798 crore project to construct six Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks Ltd (MDL) in Mumbai to come to a grinding halt.

The Scorpene project, under which the first submarine was to roll out by December 2012, with the others following one per year thereafter, is already running two years behind schedule, as was first reported by TOI.

"Our submarine force-levels need to increase...there is no doubt. We have lost a lot of time (in the Scorpene project),'' says Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta.

Admiral Mehta, who retires after 42 years of service on August 31, has reason to be worried. India's underwater combat arm will left with only nine out of its present fleet of 16 diesel-electric submarines -- 10 Russian Kilo-class, four German HDW and two virtually obsolete Foxtrot -- by 2012.

The number will further dip to just five in 2014. This when Pakistan is now looking to induct three advanced Type-214 German submarines, equipped with AIP (air-independent propulsion) to enhance their operational capabilities, after inducting three French Agosta-90B submarines, with the last one PNS Hamza even having AIP.

China, on its part, has a staggering 62 submarines, with around 10 of them being nuclear-propelled, and at least one Xia-class and two Jin-class being SSBNs (nuclear submarines with long-range ballistic missiles).

Sources said the Defence Acquisitions Council, headed by defence minister A K Antony, this month decided to approach the Cabinet Committee on Security to grant approval to the cost escalation of the French `MDL procured material (MPM) packages' from around 400 million Euros to 700 million Euros now.
The negotiations for these MPM packages, which include virtually all major systems connected with sensors, propulsion and the like, apart from the combat systems, have been stuck on the price issue for well over a year now.

"The Scorpene submarine hulls are being fabricated in MDL but there are no systems to put inside them. The French say the earlier price of 400 million Euros for the MPM packages was quoted when the contracts were inked in October 2005 and prices have doubled since then,'' said a source.

The October 2005 contracts with French companies include the Rs 6,135 crore one with M/s Armaris (DCN-Thales joint venture) for transfer of technology, combat systems and construction design, and Rs 1,062 crore with M/s MBDA for sea-skimming Exocet missiles.

A Rs 5,888-crore contract was also signed with MDL for indigenous submarine construction, with another Rs 3,553 crore earmarked for taxes and Rs 2,160 crore towards other items to be acquired during the project.

Incidentally, as reported earlier, the Comptroller and Auditor General in its latest report has blasted the government for taking nine years to finalise the Scorpene deal despite Navy's depleting underwater combat force-levels.

This delay led to increase in the project cost by Rs 2,838 crore. "Moreover, the contractual provisions resulted in undue financial advantage to the vendor of a minimum of Rs 349 crore, besides other unquantifiable benefits,'' said CAG.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Aug 2009 09:16

Admiral Mehta, who retires after 42 years of service on August 31, has reason to be worried. India's underwater combat arm will left with only nine out of its present fleet of 16 diesel-electric submarines -- 10 Russian Kilo-class, four German HDW and two virtually obsolete Foxtrot -- by 2012.

madrassa math or lahori logic from rajat pandit.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Aug 2009 10:19

Rahul M wrote:
Admiral Mehta, who retires after 42 years of service on August 31, has reason to be worried. India's underwater combat arm will left with only nine out of its present fleet of 16 diesel-electric submarines -- 10 Russian Kilo-class, four German HDW and two virtually obsolete Foxtrot -- by 2012.

madrassa math or lahori logic from rajat pandit.

If they are talking of active submarine fleet and 60 % uptimes then ~ 9 will be active at any point of time , the rest will be on maintenence and mid life upgrade.

The foxxxtrot are left out coz of being a training submarine

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Aug 2009 11:05

austin, it's clearly not that, if it was the 'at sea' fleet that was being talked about (as if rajat pandit will be aware of any such idea !!

) then it won't have said present fleet of 16 diesel-electric submarines and attach a timescale to the 9 figure. it's not that the foxtrots are ships of the line in 2009 and will suddenly become training ships in 2012.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 29 Aug 2009 11:20

Scorpene project will cost Rs 2,000 cr more
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 946064.cms

So much for the theory that only the Russians were unreliable when it came to cost estimations.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 29 Aug 2009 11:37

dinesha wrote:Scorpene project will cost Rs 2,000 cr more
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 946064.cms

Scorpene project will cost Rs 2,000 cr more
Rajat Pandit, TNN 29 August 2009, 12:42am IST
Print Email Discuss Bookmark/Share Save Comment Text Size: |

NEW DELHI: India will have to soon shell out well over Rs 2,000 crore more to French armament companies if it does not want its ongoing mammoth Rs 18,798 crore project to construct six Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks Ltd (MDL) in Mumbai to come to a grinding halt.

Sources said the Defence Acquisitions Council, headed by defence minister A K Antony, this month decided to approach the Cabinet Committee on Security to grant approval to the cost escalation of the French `MDL procured material (MPM) packages' from around 400 million Euros to 700 million Euros now.
The negotiations for these MPM packages, which include virtually all major systems connected with sensors, propulsion and the like, apart from the combat systems, have been stuck on the price issue for well over a year now.

"The Scorpene submarine hulls are being fabricated in MDL but there are no systems to put inside them. The French say the earlier price of 400 million Euros for the MPM packages was quoted when the contracts were inked in October 2005 and prices have doubled since then,'' said a source.

The October 2005 contracts with French companies include the Rs 6,135 crore one with M/s Armaris (DCN-Thales joint venture) for transfer of technology, combat systems and construction design, and Rs 1,062 crore with M/s MBDA for sea-skimming Exocet missiles.

A Rs 5,888-crore contract was also signed with MDL for indigenous submarine construction, with another Rs 3,553 crore earmarked for taxes and Rs 2,160 crore towards other items to be acquired during the project.

Incidentally, as reported earlier, the Comptroller and Auditor General in its latest report has blasted the government for taking nine years to finalise the Scorpene deal despite Navy's depleting underwater combat force-levels.

This delay led to increase in the project cost by Rs 2,838 crore. "Moreover, the contractual provisions resulted in undue financial advantage to the vendor of a minimum of Rs 349 crore, besides other unquantifiable benefits,'' said CAG.

I don't understand the need to have contracts if price is not fixed. Or we can say. everybody must have equal right to rape Indiantaxpayer!

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 29 Aug 2009 12:36

Kakarat wrote:According to sources, there had been talk of naming the squadron "Sea Wolves", though the Navy finally took a call to name the squadron after a big cat, like the White Tigers squadron is.

Nice dig sir!

Infact "Sea Wolves" is a pretty powerful name. "Wolf Pack" would have been even better than "Sea Wolves".

- Wolves hunt in "packs". It seems logical that our mig29k's will hunt in a group.
- Wolves are carnivorous ...... they bring down an opponent about 5-8 times their size. Eg. Elk etc.
- Wolves pick their prey at their weakest moment, i.e. when prey are injured or when they are on terrain which gives the pack max stealth n surprise .... combat tactics?
- Wolves have a leader who leads the pack ...... I am suresquadron leaders are smart chaps.
- Wolves have a "den" ...ever heard of "wolf's den". Vik/Gorshkov will be the analogy in this case.

Its a pretty cool name.

Choosing a big cats name is super cool. The art work on the tail fin is very purposeful. Bright future ahead for our naval aviators.

jmt (was having fun about the wolves thaz all guys excuse...)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Aug 2009 13:17

I cannot understand the extra cash wanted for the Scorpene.In fact.PC strenuously objected to the initial price hike demanded by the French when the deal was first signed,ratifying the NDA regime's decision.How on earth when the subs' equipment,etc. is being procured from France in the first place can they now ask for a price hike? Surely "reasonable" escalation clauses were built into the contract?These are brand new subs, not a major restoring and modifying of a hybrid missile/carrier like the Gorshkov which was originally built in the Ukraine.In the Scorpene deal,what "extra" equipment,wiring,etc. is there unlike that estimated for the Gorshkov? 2000 crores is a huge amount and what guarantee is there that another demand will not be made by the French a few years from now if there are further delays from our side?

2800 crores increase works out to almost 500+ crores per sub escalation alone! That's a huge amount.I seriously wonder how much 6 Brahmos equipped Amurs would cost by comparison,as their manufacturer touts them as being both quieter and cheaper than a Kilo.There must be some kind of accountability in the MOD/IN/MD for signing such a ludicrous contract where the French can simply take us for a ride not once but twice! If this is going to be the case with defence deals with the French,imagine what escalation costs will there be for the Rafale!

The sub situation in the IN is not healthy at all.I posted a report earlier that the Akula lease was approx $700 million for two subs for ten years (approx 3,500 crores),that too for a 12,000t nuclear sub with its weaponry! The cost of 6 diesel Scorpenes ,without AIP was quoted as being $4.5 billion.If we add the 700 million Euro escalation,about another $1 billion to it,the total cost will come to $5.5 billion,a cost equivalent to obtaining not less than 14 Akula-2s! Surely the MOF/GOI/IN should see the ludicrousness of the deal and as the first subs are just being assembled,cut our coat according to the cloth.WE shoulkd:
1.Reduce the number of Scorpenes to be built (last two with MESMA) to not more than four for the same original price,giving the French no extra cash.

2.With the money saved procure more Akula-2 SSGN nuclear subs from Russia (far superior to any Scorpene even with AIP),or any other nuclear sub design offered to us by Russia.

3.I suggest that we reopen talks with the Germans immediately (HDW),for acquiring more ,another four U-214 AIP subs,which are anyway derived from our U-209 design and which would be easy to induct into the IN.The Germans have a U-214 sub rejected by Greece which the Pakis want.The Germans are having second thoughts to selling the Pakis their subs because of the Paki terrorist links.India should leverage the situation with Germany,which I recommended a few years ago.

4.For the second line of subs,we could acuire the Brahmos equipped Amur,which has been touted by the manufacturers to be far quieter and cheaper than the Kilo class,also being smaller around 2000-2500t+ for a Brahmos/AIP sub.Alternatively,the JV design between Italy and Russia also offered toi us could be examined.This way we will be able to modernise and enlarge our sub fleet,in the process acquiring all the best sub tech available in order that our future conventional design will be a class that incorporates the best characteristics of the lot. This will also help our own indigenous nuclear sub development,as much sub tech has dual use capability for both nuclear and conventional subs.

If we adopt such a strategy,we could have in the future by around 2020,4 Scorpenes,8 U-209/214s,6-8 AIP Amurs with Brahmos,at least 6-8 upgraded Kilos remaining in service-totalling in all a conventional sub fleet of around at least 24-28 subs,plus our budgeted 3-5 ATVs and 3-6 Akula-2s.That would be a very healthy sub strength of around 36 nuclear and conventional boats.

PS:I fear that France is going to lose out big time with the MMRCA programme and Mirage-2000 upgrades if these hugely inflated costs for the 6 Scorpenes is pursued.What on earth was the good Dr.Singh talking to his friend,Pres.Sarko in Paris recently I wonder? India is between the devil (the unreliable sanctions prone US),the deep sea (greedy France ) and an disorganised old friend (Russia) in prsent and future deals.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 29 Aug 2009 13:32

apologies if already posted [i checked page 6 & 7]

Commander Dilip Donde is blogging from the sea - http://3.ly/p9M

m mittal · Post by **m mittal** » 29 Aug 2009 14:16

I think it is not safe to give out one's location on a public forum, it can be a potential threat.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 29 Aug 2009 16:02

This delay led to increase in the project cost by Rs 2,838 crore. "Moreover, the contractual provisions resulted in undue financial advantage to the vendor of a minimum of Rs 349 crore, besides other unquantifiable benefits,'' said CAG.

Contractual provisions as in "oversight on our part"

It says 349 crore minimum.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 29 Aug 2009 19:07

Thanks hiten for that nice blog update
some nice pics on the blog

INS Sukanya

INS Bangaram

Read the blog friends its awesome.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 29 Aug 2009 19:34

I fear that France is going to lose out big time with the MMRCA programme and Mirage-2000 upgrades if these hugely inflated costs for the 6 Scorpenes is pursued.What on earth was the good Dr.Singh talking to his friend,Pres.Sarko in Paris recently I wonder? India is between the devil (the unreliable sanctions prone US),the deep sea (greedy France ) and an disorganised old friend (Russia) in prsent and future deals.

Perhaps with all the negative and pessimistic talk of the French wrt to MMRCA contest they have probably already given up on it and hoping to Milk GoI to the fullest in the Scorpene deal as no other Indo-French defense venture seems on the cards given the cancellation of missile project and not considering French engines for LCA.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 29 Aug 2009 21:12

The problem maynot be with DCN.

The problem is in the clauses ..... apparently there were clauses which allow price escalation by the vendor in case of delays on the indian side. MDL probably didnt expect to take so long to make the hulls.

John · Post by **John** » 29 Aug 2009 23:40

Philip wrote:2800 crores increase works out to almost 500+ crores per sub escalation alone! That's a huge amount.I seriously wonder how much 6 Brahmos equipped Amurs would cost by comparison,as their manufacturer touts them as being both quieter and cheaper than a Kilo.There must be some kind of accountability in the MOD/IN/MD for signing such a ludicrous contract where the French can simply take us for a ride not once but twice! If this is going to be the case with defence deals with the French,imagine what escalation costs will there be for the Rafale!

As i noted couple years ago the final cost for Scorpene will come out to around 700 million per submarine which will make it, the most expensive platform on IN's arsenal. Worth spending this much on platform with no stand off capability? I would not be surprised if final costs goes up even higher. We failed to learn for Pakistani experience with Agosta 90B the program ran into cost escalation (PN paid billion for 3 vessels plus France absorbed some of the cost). In the end by the time the submarine was built it was generation behind.

As much tech transfer and production sounds enticing we need to make sure the vendor is capable of supporting it and local facilities are capable are building it, Scorpene was never assembled in a foreign shipyard (unlike U-212/214) so its not surprise we are running into all these problems.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 30 Aug 2009 00:29

Rahul M wrote:
Admiral Mehta, who retires after 42 years of service on August 31, has reason to be worried. India's underwater combat arm will left with only nine out of its present fleet of 16 diesel-electric submarines -- 10 Russian Kilo-class, four German HDW and two virtually obsolete Foxtrot -- by 2012.

madrassa math or lahori logic from rajat pandit.

Rahul,
I don't understand what's wrong with that statement?

I think he is saying that by 2012, 7 of the existing 16 submarines are due for decommissioning which would leave IN with 9 operational subs?

This has been repeated in media and by authorities for several years.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Aug 2009 09:51

katare ji, I would like to see a quote on that.

ignoring the two foxtrots for the moment, the only possible candidates for decommissioning are the oldest of 209 and kilo. for decommissioning of 7 subs 5 from them will have to be retired !!

of the 209,
INS Shishumar S44 (22 September 1986)
INS Shankush S45 (20 November 1986)

both will complete 26 years in service in 2012, using a sub for 30 odd years is normal in IN, and both the 209 and the kilo are still competent platforms.

this is what BR page says

Naval insiders feel that the four Shishumar Class submarines will approach the end of their combat life between 2016 {by which time the oldest 209 will complete 30 years in IN} and 2024, and thus the time is ripe to think about an upgrade.

coming to the kilos, even the oldest ones have been refurbished and upgraded with klubs (99, 2003, 2005 and 2007), makes no sense to retire them on 26/25 years of service unless the alternatives are ready.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Aug 2009 10:10

A submarine life can vary depending on how extensively they have been used . translates to uptime in their years of operation and how well they are maintained.

So there is no fixed bench mark like atleast 30 years of service , for all we know the heavily used submarine , during their fag end of they life tend to go to sea far lesser number of time to preserve their service life for longer period.

There can be lot of juggling done there , and in absence of figures one can just speculate.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Aug 2009 10:17

^^ of course, the second foxtrot was retired after 21 years of service.

and in absence of figures

which is precisely my point, I'm not ready to

on rajat pandit's article.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Aug 2009 10:31

I think it is reasonable to assume that we will have a fleet of upgraded 14 SSK on till 2015 ( 10 Kilo + 4 HDW on paper ) , although it is very much possible that submarine of both class will not maintain the same high operational tempo , or for that matter older submarine within the same class will face that issue.

Anand · Post by **Anand** » 30 Aug 2009 11:43

.............If we adopt such a strategy,we could have in the future by around 2020,4 Scorpenes,8 U-209/214s,6-8 AIP Amurs with Brahmos,at least 6-8 upgraded Kilos remaining in service-totalling in all a conventional sub fleet of around at least 24-28 subs,plus our budgeted 3-5 ATVs and 3-6 Akula-2s.That would be a very healthy sub strength of around 36 nuclear and conventional boats.

hmmmm......did u for a moment forgot that if MOD's/IN/IA/AF/...... decision making was this good and the execution of the decisions equally efficient, not this many projects would b in limbo.......
36 subs by 2020.........dats not possible not even by 2030.................
though this what the IN shoud look to have by 2020 thers no way with the way deals r made n projects executed, thats not goin 2 b.........

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Aug 2009 11:45

cut out the sms speak please. words like luk, shud are not for BR.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Aug 2009 16:24

Scorpenes are being built in Spain by Navantia.The Chilean Scorpenes were built there and not in France.Therefore,there is no convincing reason why IN/MD sub builders could not take a good look at the facilities both in France and in Spain.In fact,the Chilean sub Carrera was :

Ordered in 1997, the submarine, christened "Carrera", has been built by two different shipyards. In what is a first for European shipyards, its bow and most of the hull has been built at the French DCN facilities in Cherbourg, France, while Spain's Navantia has built the stern and assembled the submarine. The Carrera has been tested and put to water in Cartagena

Here's a Lankan take on our Maldives gambit.

http://www.thesundayleader.lk/20090830/worldaffairs.HTM

Is India eyeing base in the Maldives?

Indians have for long considered the Indian Ocean to be India’s Ocean. This thinking obviously necessitated the far flung outposts in the Indian Ocean being considered as an essential part of the Indian defence network in the region. As far back as in 1945 outstanding Indian military strategist K. M. Pannikar concluded that ‘the strategic unity of India, Ceylon and Burma was one of the prerequisites to a realistic policy of Indian defence.’

The late Prof. Shelton Kodikara in his book on Indo-Ceylon relations since Independence points out that Jawaharlal Nehru in 1945 too had supported the view that Ceylon would inevitably be drawn in ‘presumably as an autonomous unit of the Indian Federation.’ Nehru, however, had repudiated such views later on, Kodikara notes.

British Lake

Before and after World War II the Indian Ocean was a de facto British lake but with the withdrawal of the British east of Suez in the ’60s the United States took control, much to the consternation of India which tilted towards the Soviet Union during the Cold War. At this time India promoted the concept of the Indian Ocean Peace Zone (IOPZ) which Sri Lanka, wittingly or unwittingly posed as proxy proposed to the world.

The end of the Cold War made the IOPZ irrelevant with the end of the superpower rivalry in the Indian Ocean. Now the two emergent powers, China and India are in competition for dominance of the ocean and the region itself although the United State’s Pacific Fleet overshadows the region.

Indian visit

Last week Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony led a high powered delegation to the Maldives and held talks with Maldivian President Mohamed Nasheed on the defence of the archipelago. This strategically placed archipelago of atolls is in the mid Indian Ocean between South Asia, the Middle East and Africa. In the mid ’80s its vulnerability was exposed when the Sri Lankan terrorist group PLOTE took over the capital Male and an appeal by the Maldives to New Delhi resulted in an Indian task force bringing the situation under control and handing it over to the Maldivian authorities.

Defending Maldives

Reports from Male said that the two sides discussed the threat of terrorism in the region and the installation by India of a ground radar network in all its atolls which would be linked to the Indian coastal command. Other discussions featured the Indian navy coast guard patrolling the waters off the Maldives.

There was speculation that India was seeking a naval base in the Maldives but Indian Commodore Uday Baskar, defence analyst and Director of the National Maritime Foundation was quoted by al Jazeera saying that he did not believe India was planning to commit itself to such a costly undertaking.

But there are some former abandoned British naval bases in the archipelago such as the former base on Gan Island which the Soviet Union too had wanted in the 1970s but was refused by the Maldives. Speculation is that the Indians are eyeing Gan Island.

Chinese expansion

India as an emergent naval power is considered to be looking at the growing Chinese presence in the region and analysts say that recent Chinese investments in the region that was considered to be under the Indian sphere of influence would now inspire India to enter the fray.

China has made huge investments in East Africa — Sudan, Tanzania, Kenya and is also helping to develop major ports in Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Myanmar. This chain of ports have been described as the String of Pearls of China, the latest of which is the Hambantota Port now under construction and estimated to cost one billion dollars.

While after five decades of planning India has acquired the ability to build and operate a nuclear powered submarine the likes of which only five other countries have, the submarine under construction, INS Arahat will be undergoing tests for another two years before it will be commissioned into the Indian navy.

Reports said that a few months back China paraded its nuclear capability with nuclear powered sub-marines at the 60th Anniversary of the Peoples’ Liberation Army. China is now considered to have the third largest navy behind the US and Russia and is qualitatively and quantitatively ahead of the Indians.

Chinese officials, some commentators have noted, now openly speak of the need of nuclear submarines in the national interest. The PLA General Logistics Department Director has been quoted saying that ‘We can no longer accept the Indian Ocean as only an ocean of the Indians.’

Strategic importance

The Indian Ocean region has today become perhaps the most strategically important region in the world. One quarter of the world’s oil supplies flows from the Gulf into the Indian Ocean. Commuters and other vitally important industrial products are now being manufactured in the region as never before and find its passage through these sea ways while terrorism as well as Islamic extremism are abound in countries bordering the region.

The outcome of Chinese dominance and an increasing Indian presence is hard to predict. India’s developing strategic relations with the US will also be a significant factor with Defence Secretary Robert Gates expressing hope in Singapore last month that they expect India to be a partner in providing security to the Indian Ocean and beyond.

News item on Pak's modifying US Harpoons for land-attack use against India.From DNA.

Pak modified US-made Harpoon missiles, P-3C aircraft: Report
PTISunday, August 30, 2009 14:04 IST Email

New York: Validating New Delhi's fears that Islamabad was using US security aid to beef up its military against it, the Obama administration has accused Pakistan of illegally modifying the Harpoon anti-ship missile and maritime surveillance aircraft P-3C for land attacks for potential use against India.

The Obama Administration, reported The New York Times in a front page story, lodged its protest in this regard with Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani in June, adding to the tension between the two countries.

Quoting unnamed officials from the Administration and the US Congress, the daily said Washington has also accused Pakistan of modifying American-made P-3C aircraft for land-attack missions, another violation of United States law.

The Obama Administration's accusation confirms New Delhi's stand that the US military aid is primarily used by Pakistan to strengthen and build up its army against India.

External Affairs Minister S M Krishna earlier this month said that India has conveyed to the US that all forms of aid provided to Pakistan is "invariably directed" against New Delhi and providing more arms to Islamabad will not help the peace process in the region.

"We have told the US that particularly in case of Pakistan, whatever aid in whatever form has been given to them is invariably directed against India and this has been emphatically registered with the US government," Krisha had said, reacting to the US' plans to provide more military aid to Pakistan.

The New York Times said Pakistan has refuted the charge that it modified the missiles and claimed that it developed these itself. Between 1985 and 1988, the US had provided 165 Harpoon missiles to Pakistan. The daily said top leaders of the Congress have been briefed about the protest lodged by the Obama Administration.

The Congress is currently in the process of approving a legislation which triples the non-military aid to Pakistan which along with the military aid amounts to USD 7.5 billion in five years. The dispute could derail this legislation, the daily said.

"Whatever their origin, the missiles would be a significant new entry into Pakistan's arsenal against India. They would enable Pakistan's small navy to strike targets on land, complementing the sizable land-based missile arsenal that Pakistan has developed," The New York Times said.

"The focus of our concern is that this is a potential unauthorised modification of a maritime anti-ship defensive capability to an offensive land-attack missile," a senior administration official was quoted as saying. The potential for "proliferation and end-use violations are things we watch very closely," the official said. "When we have concerns, we act aggressively," the official said.

According to the paper, a senior unnamed Pakistani official said that the missile tested was developed by Pakistan, just as it had modified North Korean designs to build a range of land-based missiles that could strike India

John · Post by **John** » 30 Aug 2009 20:35

Philip wrote:Scorpenes are being built in Spain by Navantia.The Chilean Scorpenes were built there and not in France.Therefore,there is no convincing reason why IN/MD sub builders could not take a good look at the facilities both in France and in Spain.In fact,the Chilean sub Carrera was :

Spanish S-80 submarine is different submarine designed by Navantia, in fact Scorpene is no longer marketed because of the rift between DCN and Navantia due to S-80 (Navantia is marketing that design for export). Yes the 2nd Chilean submarine was built at Cartagena shipyard but you can't compare that with MDL.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Aug 2009 10:26

I have given some though on how the IN should approach its acquiring/building of 24 conventional SSK program

I have given logistics,technology and indiginisation the highest priority while developing this approach

I feel the IN should approach its conventional submarine building program in a block matter i.e block1,2,3,4 in batches of 6 , with each block bringing in new technology and inovation at the same time maintaining logistical commonality

The block upgrade has been approached by the big navies both for conventional and nuclear submarine platforms

Russia
Kilo ---> Improved Kilo ----> Kilo 636 ------> Improved Kilo 636 ( improved 636 is esentially back porting Lada features and system where ever possible )

Germany
Type 209 , 1200 , 1300 , 1400 , 1500 ....

US
LA ---> Improved LA ----> Upgraded Improved LA
Virginia ( Block 1 ,2, 3 )

Russia
Akula --> Improved Akula ---> Akula ----> 2 -----> Akula 3 or Improved Akula 2

Yasen ---> Improved Yasen

The advantage is there is no radical change in design , one can keep the logistics problem to the minimal and can add either big front technology or small incremental upgrades to the basic design depending on need and affordability and can obtain maximum from the design

The Scorpene is a great design to tinker and grow with ,IN did a smart thing by opting for this design , conventionally we have the S80 based on modified Scorpene and this thing can also go upto nuclear

A block upgrade will also help in predicting and developing technology inhouse long term and increase the percentage of indigenous content with each block as new capabilities are added and capabilities mix/match with 3rd party systems like weapons are integrated.

So for eg .

6 x Scorpene ( Block 1 ... No AIP , No VLS with 30 % indegnious content after the end of building 6th submarine is achieved )

6 x Improved Scorpene (BLOCK 2 .... AIP ( MESMA or Fuel Cell ) , greater endurance , more weapons load , TT SLCM capability , 50 - 60 % indeginous content )

6 x Highly Improved Scorpene ( Block 3 ....... AIP + Fuel Cell , Improvement in front technology ( Spherical Sonar , Conformal Sensors & Sensors all over the submarine ) Improvement in Weapons like SLCM from TT and VLS like Brahmos/Brahmos II/Hypersonic Brahmos , UUV/SF capability , 80 % indeginous content )

6 x Super Scorpene ( Block 4 , a block 4 can either go full nuclear or partial nuclear and explore ideas like Thermo Electric Generator (TEG) , improvement in building material HE-100/120 steel affording greater depth ( ~ 600 m ), 100 % indeginous submarine , besides adding all the capability of Block 3 , mix match of Indian/Western/Eastern Weapons , Improved Sail Concept , SF Capability , Improvement in Weapons/Sonars/Sensors available post 2025 , any thing new that can be added )

A block upgrades affords developing technology inhouse over a longer period of time , help predicts and maximise indigenous content that can be added with each block , no breaking in logistics with the current East and West flawed and expensive operational concept , by the end of block 4 or some time between block 3 and block 4 we can add nuclear capability or TEG type to help improve in endurance and underwater speed which a conventional AIP will not be able to keep up with due to increase in displacement ( approaching near nuclear submarine and law of diminishing returns beyond a certain point comes to haunt ) , unless ofcourse there is some radical breakthrough by conventional means to generate electricity over next 15 years or improvement in AIP technology itself , but TEG is one key promising area to look out for to increase submerged endurance to near nuclear ( ~ 80 - 90 days ) although under water speed will still be a limitation.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Sep 2009 01:40

nicely thought out, that. makes sense rather than a number of different systems.

an enlarged scorpene with nuke power would be quite a good attack sub.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Sep 2009 01:47

Any updates on the Noko ship quarantined off Andamans? Was it trying to scout a route to Vizag?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 Sep 2009 02:05

ramana wrote:Any updates on the Noko ship quarantined off Andamans? Was it trying to scout a route to Vizag?

Last heard, it was being unloaded at Kakinada Port for a thorough investigation by all agencies including the atomic energy guys.

However, it may just wind up as a case of local EDITED greed.

The 16,000 tons of sugar it carried was sold on a high seas basis and the ship was deliberately slowed down so that it could divert to Kakinada Port once it was made doubly sure that the zero import duty on sugar imports that was recently announced by the GOI had kicked in.

Unable to slow down further, the captain who was reputedly offered a bonus of US$ 5000 per day of delay, decided to anchor off Hutbay.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 02 Sep 2009 03:25

Philip wrote: The cost of 6 diesel Scorpenes ,without AIP was quoted as being $4.5 billion.If we add the 700 million Euro escalation,about another $1 billion to it,the total cost will come to $5.5 billion

Seems like the hike is Euro 300 Million ($425 Million) taking total to approx $5 Billion, not to imply that it is ok.

cost escalation of the French `MDL procured material (MPM) packages' from around 400 million Euros to 700 million Euros now

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Sep 2009 10:13

Austin wrote: 6 x Super Scorpene ( Block 4 , a block 4 can either go full nuclear or partial nuclear and explore ideas like Thermo Electric Generator (TEG)

but TEG is one key promising area to look out for to increase submerged endurance to near nuclear ( ~ 80 - 90 days ) although under water speed will still be a limitation.

I think something like TEG should be looked at now for current generation of subs. Its light, not very invasive and can be retrofitted for light recharge modes even now in all subs. In worse case, it can keep life support systems going in times of war if for some reason our subs get caught in enemy territory and don't have chance to surface to recharge batteries. Even if they can't outrun, they can remain submerged indefinitely.

John · Post by **John** » 02 Sep 2009 20:20

Austin wrote:I feel the IN should approach its conventional submarine building program in a block matter i.e block1,2,3,4 in batches of 6 , with each block bringing in new technology and inovation at the same time maintaining logistical commonality

IMO IN won't be able to afford to build so many Scorpene's, if basic version with no AIP costs about 700 million one can only imagine how much AIP and enlarged version will be.