Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

[JaiS]

Translation credits: Roy FC

India's Defense Minister Reports on Realization of Projects for Accepting AWACS into Inventory

As India's defense minister, A.K. Anthony reported in answer to an inquiry of the lower house of the Indian parliament, the first AWACS (DRLOiU) "Falcon" was adopted into the Indian air force inventory on 26 May 2009. The second and third airplanes are supposed to be delivered in 2009 and 2010, respectively.

The airplane, dead ((sic)) weight of which is 46,606 kilograms, will carry a useful payload weighting 9,831 kilograms. The maximum takeoff weight of the "Falcon" will be 77,564 kilograms, cruising speed is 853 kilometers per hour, flight range is 7,000 kilometers and practical ceiling is 12,420 meters.

As the defense minister announced, at the same time the Indian defense ministry Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) ((in Latin letters)) is developing a national AWACS project based on a platform of the Embraer ((in English)) company.

In July 2008, a contract was signed by DRDO with the Embraer company worth 210 million dollars for the delivery of three EMB-145 jet airplanes and joint development based on them of three jet AWACS systems. The agreement also includes accompanying material and hardware, including training of personnel, engineering support, delivery of spare parts and ground apparatus. Embraer is supposed to hand over the airplanes in 36, 42 and 45 months after signing of the contract. The flight of the first EMB-145 is supposed to occur 24 months after start of the work. the first tests of the AWACS airplane, equipped with the Indian radar, will take place in 2012.

Source: 16.07.09, ARMS-TASS

[dinesha]

The Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS) at Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is all geared up to develop a low-cost indigenous radar system, which they claim can be similar or more advanced than the Israeli Phalcon Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS). This will reduce India’s dependence on Israel and create more business opportunities for the local industry.

They are also in the process of developing an indigenous radar system - the airborne early warning and control system (AEWC&S) - which can be used to develop a radar similar to AWACS.

“DRDO is equipped to develop an indigenous radar system at substantially low-cost by using technologies developed for indigenous AEWC&S,” said a CABS official.

DRDO said the Rs 1,800-crore AEWC&S or ‘Eye in the sky’ is scheduled for delivery by 2011. This system alone is capable of creating business opportunities worth Rs 500-600 crore for SMEs. CABS and its other work centres at DRDO are taking the help of around 50-60 SMEs and PSUs to develop the system. Some of these include Astra Microwave, Alligator Designs, Mistral Solutions, CMC, BEL, BDL, Chaturvedi Tools, SM Creative, Cornett, Data Patterns and Ayur.

DRDO sees an immense opportunity in developing these advanced radar systems, as the Indian Air Force is looking to acquire an additional 20 such systems.

This is because six aircraft fitted with such radars can effectively cover only an area equivalent to India’s northern borders.

India had, in May 2009, taken delivery of AWACS, which is part of a $1.1-billion defence deal with Israel. The system is designed to detect aircraft at high altitude and allows operators to distinguish between friendly and hostile aircraft, even if they are hundreds of miles away.

Experts like Ajey Lele from the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA) said: “India needs AWACS for its security needs and it would be a welcome step, if India develops these indigenously. AWACS would provide IAF a high degree of situational awareness, enabling it to dominate the airspace.”

DRDO chief controller R&D Prahlada said the indigenous AEWC&S, to be mounted on three Embraer-145 jets, being obtained from Brazil for $210 million “will be very advanced with the latest image processing facilities and better software systems compared to foreign sophisticated radar systems”.

Scientists at CABS and its work centres like LRDE, Defence Avionics Research Establishment, Defence Electronics Research Laboratory, DEAL at DRDO have developed indigenous software for tactical battle management and signal processing, which can be used in radars. “These software, if procured from abroad, could have cost more than $100 million,” said a CABS scientist.

Sources said a South African wireless solutions provider Tellumat is in talks with DRDO to have Identification, Friend or Foe (IFF) systems, which are used in programmes such as AEWC&S. Sources said the IFF sensors proposal could throw up a number of opportunities, as Tellumat may have plans to manufacture these systems in India.

DRDO is looking to engage a foreign partner to help CABS optimise the time and cost involved for integrating and evaluating the AEWC&S. Some of the contenders include Israel’s Elta, European EADS, Sweden’s Saab Erikson and the US’ Raytheon and Northrop Grumman.

DRDO unit to develop low-cost radar system

[Kakarat]

A-50EI KW3552

[NRao]

I sure hope DRDO comes out with THAT radar solution - for its own sake. Such talks are getting real tiresome.

On:

Sources said a South African wireless solutions provider Tellumat is in talks with DRDO to have Identification, Friend or Foe (IFF) systems, which are used in programmes such as AEWC&S. Sources said the IFF sensors proposal could throw up a number of opportunities, as Tellumat may have plans to manufacture these systems in India.

What gives? I thought India has had IFF for some 15 or so years.

Hmmmmmmmmmm...

DRDO is looking to engage a foreign partner to help CABS optimise the time and cost involved for integrating and evaluating the AEWC&S. Some of the contenders include Israel’s Elta, European EADS, Sweden’s Saab Erikson and the US’ Raytheon and Northrop Grumman.

[Kailash]

Joint STARS

[Mayuresh]

I have a question on the way AWACS is designed

Why cannot we mount only the radar on the plane (We could have a smaller, cheaper plane with a longer endurance, etc.) and have alll other systems on the ground (either fixed or mobile), or on another craft, deeper inside home teritory? Connect those two by a secure data link (I know there shall be technological challenges). Think of the advantages! The immediate ones coming to my mind are:
1. Cost of losing a radar aircraft to enemy missiles is lower than losing an AWACS
2. We can have multiple control units stationed at various places (much like ATCs) with each able to control the radar aircraft when it flies into their airspace. This can also introduce redundancy into the system at low costs
3. Have multiple radar aircraft operating simultaneously, controlled by one or multiple control units
4. Since the radar aircraft shall house only the radar and some equipment to operate it, the size of the radar could be larger or the aircraft can be smaller, reducing its RCS in a passive mode, craft could store more chaff / flares / air-air missiles than it currently can!

Say, in a typical war scenario (with china, lets say), the radar aircraft can fly along the border (maybe 50 -100 km inside) while the control units (with most technicians) can be stationed at towns near air-force bases (like near Ambala, Srinagar, Udhampur, Delhi, Agra, Lucknow, Allahabad, Gorakhpur, Kharagpur, Kolkata, Shillong and Guwahati) around 200-300 km inside the border. Even is a radar aircraft is lost to enemy missiles, we would have redundancy.

The current AWACS designs originated in the US, and as most of their AWACS needed to be used on foreign shores, these AWACS systems needed to be completely autonomous, capable of operating in isolation, hence the large craft housing all the stuff from radar to contol units and controllers.

[abhiti]

Why cannot we mount only the radar on the plane (We could have a smaller, cheaper plane with a longer endurance, etc.) and have alll other systems on the ground (either fixed or mobile), or on another craft, deeper inside home teritory? Connect those two by a secure data link (I know there shall be technological challenges). Think of the advantages!

Think data link speed...

[NRao]

Why cannot we mount only the radar on the plane (We could have a smaller, cheaper plane with a longer endurance, etc.) and have alll other systems on the ground (either fixed or mobile), or on another craft, deeper inside home teritory?

AWACS are but just one of many sensors, including sats.

Besides, the user has selected the most affordable architecture available to them. So, your siggestion should have been one of the options proposed.

However, there are newer techs coming out that HAVE solved the network "speed" and throughput issues. Have not hit Indian shores as far as I know.

[nikhil_p]

Why cannot we mount only the radar on the plane (We could have a smaller, cheaper plane with a longer endurance, etc.) and have alll other systems on the ground (either fixed or mobile), or on another craft, deeper inside home teritory? Connect those two by a secure data link (I know there shall be technological challenges). Think of the advantages!

Think data link speed...

Even the most secure data links are often susceptible to jamming...eavesdropping...errors.

[Mayuresh]

Why cannot we mount only the radar on the plane (We could have a smaller, cheaper plane with a longer endurance, etc.) and have alll other systems on the ground (either fixed or mobile), or on another craft, deeper inside home teritory? Connect those two by a secure data link (I know there shall be technological challenges). Think of the advantages!

Think data link speed...

Thanks Abhiti! This is just an idea at present, so we all can flesh it out through a discussion.

There will definitely be technological challenges, I am not denying any. But our scientists should try desigining a system keeping Indian requirements in mind rather than the US AWACS which was designed to operate as a stand-alone unit, since most of its operations would be overseas.

We have data links going from the AWACS to the fighters (I know the information transferred will be lower per aircraft, but the AWACS has to have a much higher capacity link to communicate with multiple craft at the same time). The difference in my case shall be that the radar aircraft shall talk ONLY to the ground controls and the ground controls shall, in turn, talk to the fighters.

The US "Common Data Link" has a speed of 274 Mbps! (from L3 communications systems website). I am sure we could do with a lower speed. The weight of the radio is 300 pounds only!

[Mayuresh]

[quote="nikhil_p]

Why cannot we mount only the radar on the plane (We could have a smaller, cheaper plane with a longer endurance, etc.) and have alll other systems on the ground (either fixed or mobile), or on another craft, deeper inside home teritory? Connect those two by a secure data link (I know there shall be technological challenges). Think of the advantages!

Even the most secure data links are often susceptible to jamming...eavesdropping...errors.[/quote]

Thanks Nikhil.

We already have data links going from the AWACS to the fighters. Even these can be jammed, so the AWACS would not be effective anyways.

[k prasad]

Why cannot we mount only the radar on the plane (We could have a smaller, cheaper plane with a longer endurance, etc.) and have alll other systems on the ground (either fixed or mobile), or on another craft, deeper inside home teritory? Connect those two by a secure data link (I know there shall be technological challenges). Think of the advantages!

Think data link speed...

And Bandwidth... especially BW.

Plus, reliability. If the link fails for whatever reason, all you're left with is a blind aircraft, thats a complete liability to everyone in the air. Plus, when there's space to put the processors, why not put it onboard.

A better idea is to also send info to ground, so that you can have more ground controllers and airspace controllers as needed - like what is being done by the Israelis on CAEW.

[nikhil_p]

[quote="nikhil_p]

Why cannot we mount only the radar on the plane (We could have a smaller, cheaper plane with a longer endurance, etc.) and have alll other systems on the ground (either fixed or mobile), or on another craft, deeper inside home teritory? Connect those two by a secure data link (I know there shall be technological challenges). Think of the advantages!

Even the most secure data links are often susceptible to jamming...eavesdropping...errors.

Thanks Nikhil.

We already have data links going from the AWACS to the fighters. Even these can be jammed, so the AWACS would not be effective anyways.[/quote]

But the fighter can always switch on its own radar...as a backup plan...no option of that sort...

[rajsunder]

Thanks Nikhil.

We already have data links going from the AWACS to the fighters. Even these can be jammed, so the AWACS would not be effective anyways

But the fighter can always switch on its own radar...as a backup plan...no option of that sort...

not only that the data received from AWACS by the Fighter jets would be a processed data and would most likely be small compared to the raw data that you get from Radar. So even a lower bandwidth data link would be used, and that also means that AWACS has an option of sending the same data through different ways to the Fighter Jets, so more redundancy.

[nikhil_p]

Thanks Nikhil.

We already have data links going from the AWACS to the fighters. Even these can be jammed, so the AWACS would not be effective anyways

But the fighter can always switch on its own radar...as a backup plan...no option of that sort...

not only that the data received from AWACS by the Fighter jets would be a processed data and would most likely be small compared to the raw data that you get from Radar. So even a lower bandwidth data link would be used, and that also means that AWACS has an option of sending the same data through different ways to the Fighter Jets, so more redundancy.

Valid Point...so it is difficult (not impossible) to use a airborne radar with processing on the ground.

[abhiti]

not only that the data received from AWACS by the Fighter jets would be a processed data and would most likely be small compared to the raw data that you get from Radar. So even a lower bandwidth data link would be used, and that also means that AWACS has an option of sending the same data through different ways to the Fighter Jets, so more redundancy.

Valid Point...so it is difficult (not impossible) to use a airborne radar with processing on the ground.

To put it in perspective unmanned high altitude drones or aerostats or blimps already do what you talking about. But the same isn't currently possible with AWACS. Once it becomes possible there may be survivability and operational considerations which may tilt the balance in favor in either direction.

[Mayuresh]

To put it in perspective unmanned high altitude drones or aerostats or blimps already do what you talking about. But the same isn't currently possible with AWACS. Once it becomes possible there may be survivability and operational considerations which may tilt the balance in favor in either direction.

Actually, crew survivability was the primary consideration that got me thinking on this, especially with AWACS-killer missiles being developed. The crew would be highly skilled technicians (I guess ~20 to 25 per AWACS).

Plus the other advantage is of redundancy, not quite in the manner that Rajsundar discussed. I was envisaging a scenario where we have "n" radars in the sky, each of which has the capability to "talk" to any ground system that can establist a secure connection to it. So, in effect, if we lose a couple of radars or a couple of ground stations, we can still provide the data to our fighters. It would be one networked system with multiple redundancies running from Kashmir to Arunachal along the China Border. We could have a similar one for the Pak border

[Mayuresh]

One Stupid Question:

Can our Phalcon AWACS help in searching for Andhra CM Y. Samuel Rajashekara Reddy's helicoptor in the forest?

I am guessing it cannot, else it would have been deployed. Does this mean that it is ineffective against ground based A/C? Especially since, in this case, there is no metal other than the Helicoptor in the Nallamalla forest

[Raveen]

One Stupid Question:

Can our Phalcon AWACS help in searching for Andhra CM Y. Samuel Rajashekara Reddy's helicoptor in the forest?

I am guessing it cannot, else it would have been deployed. Does this mean that it is ineffective against ground based A/C? Especially since, in this case, there is no metal other than the Helicoptor in the Nallamalla forest

1. Ground based A/C?

2. It's a radar, not a metal detector
radars work on microwaves which are readily absorbed by water molecules...for example those in leaves and tree limbs in a forest hence making it harder for radar to penetrate and then reflect back from the intended target...although a radar with the power and processing power (to differentiate ground clutter from the target) of an AWACS should have little trouble doing this it is probably not the most effective way

just my $.02 based on my experience with long distance duplex microwave communication systems

[Mayuresh]

1. Ground based A/C?

2. It's a radar, not a metal detector

That's why I said - Stupid Question

1. How is a stationary A/c (heli) on the ground different from a crashed Heli? If the Phalcon can detect the stationary heli on the ground, it should technically, be able to detect the crashed heli

2. The metal of the heli would surely reflect more radio waves than the surrounding trees. So, it may be possible to detect it using the radar

[Raveen]

1. Ground based A/C?

2. It's a radar, not a metal detector

That's why I said - Stupid Question

1. How is a stationary A/c (heli) on the ground different from a crashed Heli? If the Phalcon can detect the stationary heli on the ground, it should technically, be able to detect the crashed heli

2. The metal of the heli would surely reflect more radio waves than the surrounding trees. So, it may be possible to detect it using the radar

Naah mate, nothing known as a dumb question...if there was, there would be no need for forums
1. A heli on the ground will be either on a concrete helipad or a clearing in the forest and in one piece, not crashed in dense forest between trees in numerous pieces (assuming the chopper crashed in a dense forest in this case, I dont know specifics of this crash)

2. True, but then again one of the most challenging things a radar does is process out the ground clutter, something the size of the AWACS should be great at this, but still thats one of the fundamental issues with radar technology

[Mayuresh]

Naah mate, nothing known as a dumb question...if there was, there would be no need for forums
1. A heli on the ground will be either on a concrete helipad or a clearing in the forest and in one piece, not crashed in dense forest between trees in numerous pieces (assuming the chopper crashed in a dense forest in this case, I dont know specifics of this crash)

2. True, but then again one of the most challenging things a radar does is process out the ground clutter, something the size of the AWACS should be great at this, but still thats one of the fundamental issues with radar technology

1A. If we assume that the pilot managed to land the helicoptor safely somewhere in the forest, it would surely be in some kind of clearing, so if the helicoptor did not crash, the AWACS should be able to locate it. Even if we assume some Naxal involvement (miniscule chances of that happening), they would have to leave the chopper somewhere.
1B. If the chopper indeed crashed into the dense forest cover, tough luck, the AWACS cannot do the job!

Let's hope we find him soon

[Raveen]

Let's hope we find him soon

True and anyone who is responsible for this

[Dmurphy]

X posted from Indian Naval Discussion thread
Indian Navy Mulls Northrop Advanced Hawkeye

[vipins]

from MOD report

Primary Radar for Airborne Early Warning
and Control (AEW&C):
Two systems are to be developed for evaluation.
The primary radar has electronically steerable
active array antenna with a range of over
3000 km.

Critical technologies have been developed and a
scaled down version of the antenna is in
advanced stage of realisation.

[Mihir.D]

The primary radar has electronically steerable
active array antenna with a range of over
3000 km.

[/quote]

3000 Kms !Would that be the range of Phalcon too ?

[Rahul M]

typo.

[Gagan]

I guess more like 300Km for the E-2D
and 450-500Km for the Phalcon.

[VishalJ]

IAF Beriev A-50EI Mainstay KW3552 @ Tel Aviv
read the photographer's remark on the first photo

<- high res

[Gagan]

Is this the second Phalcon?

[PratikDas]

Is this the second Phalcon?

It could be! I think the first IAF Phalcon was KW3551

This one is the KW3552!

Added later: Oops, not exactly a eureka moment... the photo comments for KW3552 clearly state the photos are from a test flight of the 2nd Phalcon for the IAF

[pavel]

For First time indian AWACS particpated in 77th celabrations of indian airforce annivarsary.

check out AWACS at http://www.bharat-defence.com

username changed to pavel.
Rahul.

[Avinash R]

India's second AWACS to arrive in March
New Delhi, January 17, 2010

The Indian Air Force (IAF) will get its second Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS), called the eye-in-the-sky, in March providing a dramatic boost to its capability to see beyond enemy lines and to detect incoming airborne threats.

“The second AWACS will arrive in March. Though a little delayed than the scheduled delivery, it would enhance IAF’s capabilities tremendously,” a senior IAF official, requesting anonymity, told IANS.

The IAF has purchased three AWACS from Israel to give it a capability beyond conventional ground-based and tethered electromagnetic radars. The first one arrived in May last year.

Like the first one, the cutting-edge technology Phalcon airborne radar is being integrated with the IL-76 heavy-lift aircraft.

“The second AWACS will also be based at Agra air base (home to the IAF’s Il-76 and Il-78 transports and mid-air re-fuellers) only,” the official added.

Agra airbase is one of the largest in the country and has immense strategic importance. It already has an extended runway and an avionics lab. The ground exploitation system that will sift through and disseminate the data transmitted by the AWACS is already in place.

With its ability to detect aircraft, cruise missiles and other flying objects at ranges far greater than is possible through existing systems, the AWACS can also collate surface information about troop movements and missile launches even while “listening-in” to highly confidential communications between the enemy's front line units.

To this extent, the second AWACS, as a potent force-multiplier, will significantly enhance the effectiveness of the IAF’s offensive and defensive operations. Given the intensity and pace of modern-day air warfare, the AWACS will provide an impregnable aerial umbrella to neutralise any incoming threat.

India is in the select club of nations — the US, Russia, Britain, Japan, Australia and Turkey — that operate such a sophisticated system. Other countries — notably Pakistan, Brazil and Greece — too operate AWACS but at a much lower end of the scale in terms of capability.

The AWACS project is a tripartite contract between India, Israel and Russia. The $1.1 billion deal for the three AWACS was signed in 2004.

[Kakarat]

A-50 AWACS can be seen in Agra Air Force Station in google maps

[Dmurphy]

A-50 AWACS can be seen in Agra Air Force Station in google maps

OMG, you're right! Thanks! http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=27.153894 ... 18&l=0&m=b

[KiranM]

A-50 AWACS can be seen in Agra Air Force Station in google maps

OMG, you're right! Thanks! http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=27.153894 ... 18&l=0&m=b

Am I seeing C-130 Hercules towards the right?

[Anurag]

Sure do look like them! Did the deliveries begin for the 6 C-130J's on order for SF?

[nachiket]

Look at the aircraft on the runway to the right. It looks like a C-17. Its definitely larger than the Il-76s which you can see all over the airbase. The C-130s and C-17 must be American. On a stopover for fuel perhaps. Just guessing.

BTW, doesn't the Agra AFB have any fighter squadron present? It seems to be teeming with transport aircraft but no fighters.

[Cain Marko]

Look at the aircraft on the runway to the right. It looks like a C-17. Its definitely larger than the Il-76s which you can see all over the airbase. The C-130s and C-17 must be American. On a stopover for fuel perhaps. Just guessing.

BTW, doesn't the Agra AFB have any fighter squadron present? It seems to be teeming with transport aircraft but no fighters.

I haven't seen the image, but was it taken during the last Cope India? IIRC, the IAF/USAF transports and AWACS played a good deal with each other during the exercise.

CM.

[KiranM]

Look at the aircraft on the runway to the right. It looks like a C-17. Its definitely larger than the Il-76s which you can see all over the airbase. The C-130s and C-17 must be American. On a stopover for fuel perhaps. Just guessing.

BTW, doesn't the Agra AFB have any fighter squadron present? It seems to be teeming with transport aircraft but no fighters.

I haven't seen the image, but was it taken during the last Cope India? IIRC, the IAF/USAF transports and AWACS played a good deal with each other during the exercise.

CM.

Cannot be because then IAF didnt have the A-50I.