Indian Naval Discussion

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 15 Nov 2009 06:41

nithish wrote:MoD may sell aircraft carrier to India to limit cuts

One of Britain's new £2bn aircraft carriers could be sold off under cost-cutting plans being considered by the Ministry of Defence. India has lodged a firm expression of interest, the Observer has learned.

The sale of one of the two 65,000-tonne vessels would leave the Royal Navy with a single carrier and could force Britain to borrow from the French fleet, which itself has only one carrier and is reluctant to build more. Last summer the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, proposed to Gordon Brown that the two navies co-ordinate maintenance and refitting so that one was at sea at all times.

According to senior defence sources, Whitehall officials are examining the feasibility of a sale as part of the strategic defence review that will start early next year and is expected to result in savage cuts.

The carrier programme has already been delayed by two years to push back spending commitments, which itself will end up costing the taxpayer more in the long run. BAE Systems began work in July on HMS Queen Elizabeth, which is due to come into service in 2016. Preparatory work on the Prince of Wales, due for launch in 2018, has also started. The two carriers will replace the ageing Invincible class and are three times the size.

There were fears that the government could scrap one altogether. But it is understood that the financial penalties would be prohibitive. About 10,000 jobs in Portsmouth, Barrow-in-Furness, Fife and Glasgow depend on the orders.
Vikramaditya will be in service in 2012, Vikrant in 2014 and the Viraat, according to Wiki, will serve till 2019
if we were going to buy the Prince of Wales, it might be replacing the Viraat but Wiki also says that the second Vikrant class carrier might be inducted at about the same time (if it's ordered nxt year)
will the Navy go for the super-carrier and forego another Vikrant?

Somehow I don't believe this news. IN may want to buy the general design like france so they can customize it for their requirements but I doubt they would want a new ship costing $ 4bil from UK. Anyway second viraat class is a done deal and with 2 viraat and 1 gorky (30 years life) I don't see any place for another carrier before 2024.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 15 Nov 2009 06:53

Semi-radar seekers/passive ones require target illumination by an external source.Once the external radar detects and illuminated the target, the on-board guidance homes onto the target.But this need the external source to keep illuminating the target.

While Active seekers dont really need target illumination done by external radars.Once the target is detected and missile is fired in the way,the active seeker homes onto the target using its on-board radar.
Simple example is yet to be inducted Barak-8 which comes with an active radar seeker.
The advantage with missiles having active seekers is that, the external source dont necessarily need to keep tracking the target.Instead it can leave the target for the seeker on-board the missile and leave the target once detected and continue its detecting and tracking of others.

Another example is Akash which dont have an active seeker and depends on external radar for its entire flight.Where it makes the radar engaged with the target during the whole time.This a dis-advantage that the radar can only be available for engaging of few targets(4 in case of rajendra)

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 15 Nov 2009 07:00

jaladipc wrote:While Active seekers dont really need target illumination done by external radars.Once the target is detected and missile is fired in the way,the active seeker homes onto the target using its on-board radar.

Thats actually not completely true. Most active missiles with active seekers need midcourse guidance. The ground radar is much bigger, more powerful, more jam resistant and has a wider field of view than the active seeker in any missile. Most missiles with active seekers have a lock on range ~10-20KM and till the missile reaches that range, course information should be sent to the missile.

John · Post by **John** » 15 Nov 2009 10:21

Anujan wrote:Thats actually not completely true. Most active missiles with active seekers need midcourse guidance. The ground radar is much bigger, more powerful, more jam resistant and has a wider field of view than the active seeker in any missile. Most missiles with active seekers have a lock on range ~10-20KM and till the missile reaches that range, course information should be sent to the missile.

Mid course guidance is useful when intercepting a target at long range because original targeting information would be out of scope by the time interceptor gets to its target, even SAR missiles use Mid course guidance SM-2, ESSM and Shtil are few notables.

mahesh Sankar · Post by **mahesh Sankar** » 15 Nov 2009 13:10

One of Britain's new £2bn aircraft carriers could be sold off under cost-cutting plans being considered by the Ministry of Defence. India has lodged a firm expression of interest, the Observer has learned.

The sale of one of the two 65,000-tonne vessels would leave the Royal Navy with a single carrier and could force Britain to borrow from the French fleet, which itself has only one carrier and is reluctant to build more. Last summer the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, proposed to Gordon Brown that the two navies co-ordinate maintenance and refitting so that one was at sea at all times.

According to senior defence sources, Whitehall officials are examining the feasibility of a sale as part of the strategic defence review that will start early next year and is expected to result in savage cuts.

The carrier programme has already been delayed by two years to push back spending commitments, which itself will end up costing the taxpayer more in the long run. BAE Systems began work in July on HMS Queen Elizabeth, which is due to come into service in 2016. Preparatory work on the Prince of Wales, due for launch in 2018, has also started. The two carriers will replace the ageing Invincible class and are three times the size.

There were fears that the government could scrap one altogether. But it is understood that the financial penalties would be prohibitive. About 10,000 jobs in Portsmouth, Barrow-in-Furness, Fife and Glasgow depend on the orders.

How True is this?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 15 Nov 2009 14:53

I've always said that. Why is India buying AG when for same cost we can buy a carrier with absolutely 2 generations newer tech.

With 3 carrier of same class available ion the world, maintenance will not be a problem either.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Nov 2009 15:14

for same cost

gorsh is ~ 2 bn including the 16 Mig-29k, after the cost expansion ? the mig-29k package itself would cost around 1 bn US.

CVFs cost is $4.2 bn /ship. add the cost of a similar sized air wing to that. what would that be ?
1.6 bn for the F-35b/rafale C ? total = 5.8 bn ! same cost indeed !
of course, there would have been no realistic chance of the F-35B turning up within the next decade.

people do go to ridiculous lengths to justify what they want to believe.

Why is India buying AG when for same cost we can buy a carrier with absolutely 2 generations newer tech.

what exactly is 2 generations newer tech for a V/STOL aircraft carrier ? other than a digital platform management system that can be fitted on the gorsh too ?

modernity of an aircraft carrier is determined primarily by its air wing, age or generation of the platform is a secondary issue.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 15 Nov 2009 16:32

I am sorry if reposted....but...something interesting....!!!
http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/200 ... er-to.html

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 15 Nov 2009 17:31

Rahul M wrote: gorsh is ~ 2 bn including the 16 Mig-29k, after the cost expansion ? the mig-29k package itself would cost around 1 bn US.

CVFs cost is $4.2 bn /ship. add the cost of a similar sized air wing to that. what would that be ?

As of right now, $1.42 = 1 GBP. The 2 b GBP = 2.84 b $.
As reported the Britain's new aircraft carriers around £2bn. Which is almost same as what Russian are demanding !! To me it's simply a better deal as compare to AG. This is a new AC and much bigger .... 65,000 t !!! Though I don't know the technical comparison between the two ....

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Nov 2009 19:10

google tells me

1 British pound = 1.6674 US$

per ship cost is varyingly reported as 2.7 bn BP to 3 bn BP, converts to ~ $ 4.5 bn and $ 5 bn respectively. in fact I was underestimating in the earlier post !

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Nov 2009 19:10

the fill up the hanger space adequately would need 25x VSTOL JSF @ $100mil each + extra for weapons mininum...it wont have steam catapult. Mig29K will be fairly outdated by then although it will surely be capable of ski jump takeoff.

we are better off working with Fincantieri to scale up the basic ADS design and have it built in kochi.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 15 Nov 2009 19:29

I am not sure India will go for it. Although it is a state of the art next generation of a/c as it is built by finest ship designers from France and Britain and can serve atleast till 2035. However, India will also need massive support fleet along with a/c and I doubt we have this many supporting ships with us. I would rather buy Landing craft/s than a/c.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2009 19:53

JTull wrote:I've always said that. Why is India buying AG when for same cost we can buy a carrier with absolutely 2 generations newer tech.

JTullji - and I have a white domed marble building for sale in Agra. The Russkies hooked us with promises of free carrier and pay for upgrade only and are now squeezing our goolies. God knows what the Brits might do.

I would love to see another A/C bought off shelf while the ADS gets ready but hey "off shelf" for aircraft carriers does not seem to be like buying eggs in the supermarket.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 15 Nov 2009 20:05

Meanwhile a curious news report from Zee News with a new geographical location - the "Malkha State".
Bismillah farmaiye:
A chain of radars, AIS to block sea route for terrorists

Panaji: A chain of radars and Automatic Identification System (AIS) would be deployed along the coast by next year to block the sea route for terrorists, a top official said.

"To tighten the security and ensure that no attempts are made by terrorists to use the sea route, the Indian Coast Guard has been given responsibility along with Director General Light Houses for establishing a chain of radars and Automatic Identification System along the coast," Vice Admiral Sanjeev Bhasin, Flag officer commanding in chief (western Naval command) told reporters here.

...

Bhasin said the coast guard and marine police would expedite the pending orders for the ships in various shipyards.

...

Talking about the high seas piracy, he said the threat is becoming very complicated. "If you remember few years ago, the only piracy was in the Malakha state . Now the threat has suddenly emerged in the gulf of Eden and in the vicinity of Somalia where large number of ships from different nations are operating," Bhasin said.

Malacca Straits and Gulf of Aden.
Such is the standard of reporting in the news outlets in India.

John · Post by **John** » 15 Nov 2009 20:07

Singha wrote:the fill up the hanger space adequately would need 25x VSTOL JSF @ $100mil each + extra for weapons mininum...it wont have steam catapult. Mig29K will be fairly outdated by then although it will surely be capable of ski jump takeoff.

we are better off working with Fincantieri to scale up the basic ADS design and have it built in kochi.

How would Mig-29k be outdated by 2020?

sourab_c · Post by **sourab_c** » 15 Nov 2009 21:11

nithish wrote:MoD may sell aircraft carrier to India to limit cuts

This may just be a "counter" arm twisting exercise with regards to the Gorshkov deal.

Sandipan · Post by **Sandipan** » 15 Nov 2009 21:16

What is the Job Profile of "Director General of Light Houses". I would like to apply for that position

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 15 Nov 2009 22:37

sourab_c wrote:
nithish wrote:MoD may sell aircraft carrier to India to limit cuts
This may just be a "counter" arm twisting exercise with regards to the Gorshkov deal.

If this deal goes through F18 SH can be used as the AC for the carrier. The F18 might be a better fit because of
close military/technical collaboration between US and UK.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 15 Nov 2009 22:40

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/cvf/

As per the link,

No catapult or arresters will be fitted in the initial build but the carrier will be built to accommodate a future back-fit. The carrier will be fitted with a steam catapult or electromagnetic launch system and arrester gear, if the option to convert the carrier to the conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) variant proceeds.
.......
An electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS) is to be developed by General Atomics in USA for the USN CVN-21 aircraft carrier. The maturity of EMALS technology for integration into UK CVF aircraft carriers will be assessed as the US CVN-21 programme progresses.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Nov 2009 22:42

guys let's not go overboard with a rumour article. we will discuss the CVF here if there's further confirmation. (which I think won't be there, RN won't surrender this one)

till that time, please use the misc. or international naval thread.
thanks.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 16 Nov 2009 07:06

John wrote: I do not think you understand Semi active radar guidance and Active radar guidance might want to read them first. Active radar guided missile does not require illumination from FCR radar it is has radar transceiver and is capable of detecting and homing on to the target, fire and forget.

who told you this that active radar seeker missile doesn't need fire control radar

how missile can be fired and guided towards target without control radar.
fire control radar provides mid course guidance to missile.

in fighter aircraft its radar itself works as search and fire control radar
and in SAM system fire control radar and search radar are separate

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 16 Nov 2009 07:34

jaladipc wrote:Semi-radar seekers/passive ones require target illumination by an external source.

While Active seekers dont really need target illumination done by external radars.Once the target is detected and missile is fired in the way,the active seeker homes onto the target using its on-board radar.

ok if active radar missile is fired who will tell missile about in which direction it has to go
air search radar doesn't do this.

what is the range of active radar seeker compared to fire control radar range.

s400 SAM has active radar missiles but still this system has fire control radar.
AN/MPQ-65 radar for PAC-3 itself works as search and fire control radar.

in fighters its radar itself works as search and fire control radar.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 16 Nov 2009 07:46

John wrote:
Anujan wrote:Thats actually not completely true. Most active missiles with active seekers need midcourse guidance. The ground radar is much bigger, more powerful, more jam resistant and has a wider field of view than the active seeker in any missile. Most missiles with active seekers have a lock on range ~10-20KM and till the missile reaches that range, course information should be sent to the missile.
Mid course guidance is useful when intercepting a target at long range because original targeting information would be out of scope by the time interceptor gets to its target, even SAR missiles use Mid course guidance SM-2, ESSM and Shtil are few notables.

anujan is right, active radar missile seeker can't see more than 15-20km compare this to the 100-200km range of fire control radar

and this 15-20km range is when there is no jamming but this is highly unlikely.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 16 Nov 2009 08:10

Rahul M wrote: gorsh is ~ 2 bn including the 16 Mig-29k, after the cost expansion ? the mig-29k package itself would cost around 1 bn US.

Admiral Gorshkov refit charges might be around $2.5-3billion finally, excluding the Mig-29ks. THe final amount has not been finalized yet, though Russia is demanding $2.9b and India is looking at $2.2b. Even though the article below says the price is finalized, later news reports seem to indicate it is not.

India to pay around $2.2 billion for Gorshkov's refit to end wrangling

...
"We are confident the total cost for Gorshkov's refit will be pegged somewhere around $2.2 billion,'' said a top Indian official
...
The $1.5-billion contract was finally inked in January 2004, with the carrier refit costing $974 million and the rest for 16 MiG-29Ks. Under it, Gorshkov was to be delivered by August 2008.

But then came the shocker. Russia in mid-2007 demanded another $1.2 billion for Gorshkov's refit in addition to the initial $974 million, apart from pushing back its delivery to December 2012, holding that work on it had been "grossly under-estimated'' earlier.

Though after much heart-burn, India eventually agreed, more was to follow. Russia last year said it now wanted $2 billion more for refit, taking the total cost to around $2.9 billion. India, of course, wants the figure down to the $2.2-billion mark.
...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Nov 2009 08:40

we can do better than blindly believing rajat pandit's figures and his mysterious 'top officials' when it comes to russian arms ?!

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20091115/156846815.html

Under the original $1.5 billion 2004 contract between Russia's state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport and the Indian Navy, which includes delivery of MiG-29K Fulcrum carrier-based fighters, the work on the aircraft carrier was to have been completed in 2008.

However, Russia later claimed it had underestimated the scale and the cost of the modernization, and asked for an additional $1.2 billion, which New Delhi said was "exorbitant."

After long-running delays and disputes, India offered in February 2008 to raise the refit costs for the aircraft carrier, docked at the Sevmash shipyard in northern Russia for the past 12 years, by up to $600 million.

Russia said it was not satisfied with the proposed amount and the issue of the additional funding remained unresolved until now.

so russia wanted $ 1.2 bn more (taking gorsh price to $ 2.2 bn), not $ 2 bn ($ 3 bn total)as pandit wants us to believe.
India offered a $ 600 mn raise which would put the price of gorsh at $ 1.6 bn.

and the price pandit wants us to believe is India's offer price ($ 2.2 bn) is actually the one asked by russia which India refused ! so much for uber-DDM rajat pandit.
---------------------

mind, I do think this is sneaky tactics by russia and reprehensible. that does not mean that the CVF is affordable or reasonable given what it brings to the table.
if we at all want to look outside, the future french carrier with possible nuclear propulsion would be a much better choice as far as design studies go.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 16 Nov 2009 10:38

I wouldn't dismiss the TOI article it so soon. Multiple newspapers are reporting the same:

Govt to assess CAG criticism on Gorshkov cost escalation

..
After revising the repair costs three times since 2007, Russia made a final demand for additional USD 2.9 billion in February this year.
...

India Pays $102 mn More to Russia for Gorshkov Warship

...
Their first demand for hiking the cost came in 2007, when Russia sought an additional USD 1.2 billion for the aircraft carrier and to rework the original 2004 contract.

India agreed to renegotiate the deal only in December last, after holding for long that there was no room for a fresh contract for the warship. But the Russians quoted their final figure of USD 2.9 billion in February this year.

"Another Defence Ministry team will be leaving for Moscow in the middle of June to work out the final details of the renegotiation," the official added.

...

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 16 Nov 2009 11:29

This is may or may not have anything to do with Gorky

nithish wrote:MoD may sell aircraft carrier to India to limit cuts

I see nothing wrong in this. It only says GoI lodged expression of interest. That is plausible given the uncertainities surrounding the Gorky. Expressing an interest is a routine affair, whether someone willing to sell or not.

What interest me the most is the similar type of news appeared from Indian source which was discussed here sometime back, signalling that India may use EMALS in the second carrier that is going to be build. Shiv Aroor blog talks about 65 k ton carrier as second IAC or third, na ?

This 1+1+1 makes to hatch an interesting conjecture, evnethough it could be just conjecture.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 16 Nov 2009 12:25

^^^
IMHO, this is huge. If not Gorky, it will definitely affect our IAC plans.

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 16 Nov 2009 18:48

LOL wish it were true but I guess its nothing but hotair from ourside to put pressure on the Ruskies during price negotiations for the Gorky.

arun · Post by **arun** » 16 Nov 2009 20:00

vavinash wrote:This must be the second ship of the Saryu class.

She is indeed the second of the 105 meter NOPV's of the Saryu Class being built by GSL. She will be the INS Sunayna.

The Goa Shipyard Ltd. press release:

NAVAL OFFSHORE PATROL VESSEL INS “SUNAYNA” DESIGNED AND BUILT BY GSL LAUNCHED

15/11/2009

The second of the new 105 m Naval Offshore Patrol Vessel (NOPV) was ceremoniously launched on 14 Nov 2009 at the Goa Shipyard by Smt Rajni Bhasin, wife of Vice Admiral Sanjeev Bhasin AVSM, VSM, ADC, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Western Naval Command. Launching of NOPV, INS “SUNAYNA”, the largest patrol vessel designed in-house and built by Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL) for the Indian Navy was yet another milestone in GSL’s quest for self reliance in sophisticated shipbuilding. The Chief Guest, Vice Admiral Sanjeev Bhasin AVSM, VSM, ADC, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Western Naval Command, Rear Admiral Sudhir Pillai NM, Flag Officer Commanding Goa Area, Shri S Ananthasaynam Offg. Chairman & Managing Director GSL and various other dignitaries were present on the occasion. The NOPV will help meet the increasing requirement of the Indian Navy for undertaking ocean surveillance and surface warfare operations in order to prevent infiltration and transgression of maritime sovereignty. This Vessel will be deployed for monitoring sea lines of communication, defence of offshore oil installations and other important offshore national assets. Besides this, the Vessel can be deployed for escorting high value ships and fleet support operations. Sporting a flight deck, the Vessel supports embarkation and operation of an Advanced Light Helicopter. Launch of this Vessel is a milestone in the quest of the Indian Navy to provide foolproof security to the Nation against ulterior motives of the forces inimical to the interest of the country. This assumes specific significance in the aftermath of the tragic terrorist strike in Mumbai. The NOPV is powered by twin diesel engines, each driving a controllable pitch propeller through a reduction gearbox. The Vessel is fitted with state-of-the-art Navigation, Communication and Electronic Warfare Equipment. A 76 mm SRGM and two 30 mm Guns with associated fire control system, together with four chaff launchers, form the main weaponry package of the Vessel.

Goa Shipyard

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 17 Nov 2009 06:52

Navy Chief to sail on INS Viraat to mark golden jubilee

Navy Chief Admiral Nirmal Verma will sail on board India’s sole aircraft carrier, INS Viraat, later this week to mark the golden jubilee of the warship that is the oldest operational aircraft carrier in the world.
...
...
The fleet of Sea Harrier fighters — the only kind that can operate from the warship — has also depleted over the years due to accidents, and only four operational fighters are currently left in service.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 17 Nov 2009 22:09

'Teg' and 'Chakra' are almost ready

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 18 Nov 2009 02:00

Team,

Any news on when the INS Shivalik shall finally be commissioned? We are already in the 18th day of Nov. I thought the outgoing Naval Chief Admiral Suresh Mehta had said that Nov 2009 would be the commissioning date. We still do not have the ship

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 18 Nov 2009 02:39

Navy’s first women combatants to take to the skies

KOCHI: Putting an end to debates over the induction of women into combat roles in the Armed Forces, the Navy on Friday will script history when it enlists two women officers as observers on board its fleet of maritime patrol aircraft (MPA).

With the coveted ‘wings’ conferred on them at a passing-out ceremony here, Sub-Lieutenants Ambica Hooda and Seema Rani Sharma, both 22, will become the first women airborne tacticians of the Navy, which has taken the lead in according equal opportunities by starting entry for women in the observer cadre as Short Service Commissioned Officers.

“Having commendably completed their training, the officers will now be posted to the Dornier maritime reconnaissance squadrons as Electronic Warfare Sensor Officers. And, on a maritime patrol aircraft, observers carry out operation of radar, electronic sensor systems, electronic warfare systems, anti-submarine warfare systems, maritime air operations for independent search and tracking, coordination with the Air Force, and the like,” said Commander P.V.G.K. Nambiar, Officer-in-Charge of the Observer School in INS Garuda, who has overseen the 27-week flying training taken by the women officers, part of a mixed batch of four.
...
...

nithish · Post by **nithish** » 18 Nov 2009 05:23

Russia to float out first frigate (INS Teg) for Indian Navy on Nov. 27: RIA Novosti

A Russian shipyard will float out the first of three frigates for India's Navy November 27, a company spokesman said Tuesday.

The Yantar shipyard in Russia's Baltic exclave of Kaliningrad is building three Project 11356 modified Krivak III class (also known as Talwar class) guided missile frigates for the Indian Navy under a $1.6 billion contract signed in July, 2006.
"The frigate is due to be floated out on November 27," Sergei Mikhailov said.
He previously said sea trials would not start right away because "post-construction work" was still to be carried out. The trials should start in 2010, he said.
The shipyard is to deliver the last warship to India in 2011-2012.
He did not indicate exactly when the first frigate would be complete and handed over to India.

In an interview with RIA Novosti, Yantar's Director Igor Orlov said the shipyard was currently in talks with Russia's Vnesheconombank on "a $60 million loan to complete the construction of the three frigates for the Indian Navy."

The Talwar-class frigate has deadweight capacity of 4,000 metric tons and a speed of 30 knots, and is capable of accomplishing a wide range of naval missions, primarily hunting down and destroying large surface ships and submarines.
Russia has previously built three Talwar class frigates for India - the INS Talwar (from the Hindi language meaning Sword), the INS Trishul (Trident), and the INS Tabar (Axe).
Indian President Pratibha Patil has named the new ships the Teg (Saber), the Tarkash (Quiver), and the Trikand (Bow).

All the new frigates will be armed with eight BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles rather than 3M-54E Klub-N anti-ship missiles that were installed on previous frigates.
They will be also equipped with a 100-mm gun, a Shtil surface-to-air missile system, two Kashtan air-defense gun/missile systems, two twin 533-mm torpedo launchers, and an anti-submarine warfare helicopter.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 18 Nov 2009 05:34

What are the improvements in the three new frigates over the earlier three talwar class vessels?

John · Post by **John** » 18 Nov 2009 06:19

RaviBg wrote:What are the improvements in the three new frigates over the earlier three talwar class vessels?

Other than Brahmos replacing Klub looks like everything else will the same, they won't have any of the newer Russian components. Shtil-1 (not Vl-shtil), same COGAG turbines , Kashtan (not Kashtan-m1) etc..

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 18 Nov 2009 11:22

The British Warship that India wants: Quantum Leap on the high seas

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 19 Nov 2009 02:13

Women combatants to be inducted in Navy for the first time

KOCHI: Another male bastion would soon fall in the Indian Armed Forces when, for the first time in Naval history, two women officers would donflying overalls at a function here on November 20.

...

The Naval Aviation, for the first time since its inception 56 years ago, has inducted women combatant officers as Observers on board its fleet of maritime patrol aircraft (MPA), they said.

Sub Lieutenants Seema Rani Sharma and Ambica Hooda would be the Navy's first women observers (airborne tacticians). Selected for Short Service Commission,

...

The officers will be operating weapons, sensors, radars and navigate aircraft, they said.

During their 16-month training period, the two women went through a 'grinding' schedule which included Air Navigation, understanding complex maritime environment, Tactics of Naval warfare besides flying training in state-of-the-art sophisticated Dornier aircraft.

...

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 19 Nov 2009 04:58

TIDBITS FROM DEFENSE INDUSTRY DAILY ABOUT INDIA'S INTEREST IN CVF QUEEN ELIZABETH

Nov 16/09: Amidst rumors of major British defense budget cuts, The Guardian reports that India has expressed formal interest in the 65,000t CVF/Queen Elizabeth class carrier program. The UK MoD is desperately looking for long-term budget savings, but canceling either of its full-size carriers at this point would be rival the cost of finishing them:

“According to senior defence sources, Whitehall officials are examining the feasibility of selling one of the carriers. It is understood they are planning to put forward the option as part of the government’s strategic defence review, which will start early next year…. “Selling a carrier is one very serious option,” a defence source said this weekend, although the government is a long way from committing to any sale. It could take between six and 12 months to reach a decision, he added.”

Each Queen Elizabeth carrier costs about $3.5 billion, and the negotiating difference around the Admiral Gorshkov is currently around $2.2+ billion. The question is whether India would be able to buy one of the CVF carriers for less than the UK paid, in order to offer the Treasury monies that it could not otherwise obtain from the CVF program. If a refund could be forthcoming from the Russians, and a deal done with the British, investing the Vikramaditya’s $3 billion could net India a comletely new ship rather than an old and refurbished one, with double the Gorshkov’s aerial complement. Key questions include whether those deals could be secured, and whether India is prepared to wait until 2016 for the British carrier, as opposed to 2013 (and sliding…) for Gorshkov.

Then again, $2.2 – $2.5 billion could also secure India an America class light carrier from Northrop Grumman, with a similar tonnage and aerial complement to the Gorshkov, but markedly better electronics and defensive systems. If India begins to look beyond Russia for options, Britain’s CVF program is not its sole alternative.....