Af-Pak -> Pak-Af Watch

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D Roy
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by D Roy »

Ramana,

most of the things you detailed in a post above that can happen as a result of US failure in Afghanistan are plausible except this one:
Russia might be rolled back to the Duchy of Muscovy
This will not happen. Russian nukes with the patriarch's blessing no less, make this impossible. The eastern roman empire is made of sterner stuff. the Ivans are crazier about power than any two bit Jihadi,

Moreover if this were actually feasible- Uncle Sam would gladly "lose" in Afghanistan. It cannot which is precisely why Uncle Sam does not want to lose. Russia is the key to the Af-Pak problem and has most of the world's fresh water.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by a_kumar »

Johann wrote:The minimum acceptable solution for the US would be to accept an unfriendly regime in place that nevertheless denies its territory to training and planning for the global jihad.

A good example of such a situation would be Sudan, which the US has had very hostile relations with ever since the Islamist revolution in 1989.

Nevertheless, they've avoided direct conflict for the most part ever since the local Army-Islamist combine booted out OBL and the global jihad out of Sudan in 1996.
There is one crucial difference between Sudan and Afghanistan.

US has the capability to independently enforce "carrot and stick" policy in Sudan as its easily reachable. Not to mention the huge number of bases in its proximity. Bottomline : US is not too dependent on support of one player to implement its policy.

With Afghanistan, US's "big stick" policy is heavily dependent on Pakistan's willingness. So "unstable/barely stable" Afghanistan or an "unfriendly afghanistan" is good recipe for Pakistani exploitation. So IMO, US's minimum is atleast a "friendly and stable regime" (even if islamist) that can keep a lid on radical groups.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by NRao »

a_kumar wrote:
Johann wrote:The minimum acceptable solution for the US would be to accept an unfriendly regime in place that nevertheless denies its territory to training and planning for the global jihad.

A good example of such a situation would be Sudan, which the US has had very hostile relations with ever since the Islamist revolution in 1989.

Nevertheless, they've avoided direct conflict for the most part ever since the local Army-Islamist combine booted out OBL and the global jihad out of Sudan in 1996.
There is one crucial difference between Sudan and Afghanistan.

US has the capability to independently enforce "carrot and stick" policy in Sudan as its easily reachable. Not to mention the huge number of bases in its proximity. Bottomline : US is not too dependent on support of one player to implement its policy.

With Afghanistan, US's "big stick" policy is heavily dependent on Pakistan's willingness. So "unstable/barely stable" Afghanistan or an "unfriendly afghanistan" is good recipe for Pakistani exploitation. So IMO, US's minimum is atleast a "friendly and stable regime" (even if islamist) that can keep a lid on radical groups.
In general that is true.

However, the Bush admin did squander away a golden opportunity when they had the backing of pretty much the entire world to set "A'stan right". There was a distinct period of time when the very Pakistanis were closer to cooperation than they are today. Between US misreading Pakistan and the horrendous Iraq escapade the entire opportunity has been squandered away.

And by squandering away the opportunity the US in particular has managed to make the entire situation average and more predictable.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by Johann »

A Kumar,

Yes, Sudan is much more accessible than Afghanistan.

But the bigger factor is that Sudan's Islamist government essentially declared hostility to the US, which makes it much easier to wield a stick against them.

Pakistan on the other hand offers 400% alliance and cooperation. When that lie is called they say very bluntly, 50% cooperation from us will cost you much less than 100% opposition.

Sudan's population is a fraction of Pakistan's, it lacked the nuclear factor, and the US had the support of Egypt, Algeria and much of the Arab world while applying sanctions and threats on Sudan.

Once Sudan stopped aggravating its Arab neighbours the situation has transformed - today the Arab world stands solidly behind Sudan over Darfur, Mubarak welcoming Omar Bashir to Cairo and kissing him on cheeks after the ICC indictment for war crimes. This is the same Sudanese government that helped nearly assassinated Mubarak in 1995, and helped cause enormous mayhem.

So despite pressure from both liberal hawks (upset about Darfur) and conservatives (upset about various things) to 'do something' about Sudan, very little has been done.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by a_kumar »

NRao wrote:In general that is true.

However, the Bush admin did squander away a golden opportunity when they had the backing of pretty much the entire world to set "A'stan right". There was a distinct period of time when the very Pakistanis were closer to cooperation than they are today. Between US misreading Pakistan and the horrendous Iraq escapade the entire opportunity has been squandered away.
And by squandering away the opportunity the US in particular has managed to make the entire situation average and more predictable.
While the Iraq war was well debated all over, the Konduz episode perplexed me quite a bit. How was PA/ISI let off the hook very easily?

Was US "being nice" owing to the Pentagon/CIA's generals of cold war (aka. honorary Pakistanis)? That was the time when US could have gotten a whole lot more for a $1B than they can now get for even $20B.

Another thought : We can point the finger at Uncle all we want.. but if India had enough assets on ground to get good intel on the PA/ISI airlifts, why wasn't even one of them downed? Surely, Afghanistan at that time still had a lot of sams around! That would have put the spotlight on the underbelly of the region.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by a_kumar »

Johann wrote:Once Sudan stopped aggravating its Arab neighbours the situation has transformed - today the Arab world stands solidly behind Sudan over Darfur, Mubarak welcoming Omar Bashir to Cairo and kissing him on cheeks after the ICC indictment for war crimes. This is the same Sudanese government that helped nearly assassinated Mubarak in 1995, and helped cause enormous mayhem.

So despite pressure from both liberal hawks (upset about Darfur) and conservatives (upset about various things) to 'do something' about Sudan, very little has been done.
Thanks. Thats one dot I did not see earlier.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by Muppalla »

Cross posting to Af-Pak watch.

The following line of thought needs a lot of analysis and discussion and this is fundamental to future of India. The time is fast approaching and I beleive everythin in AFPak region. It is another Mahabharat. What will be the strategy of modern day Krishna.
brihaspati wrote:The Americans are doing a repeat of Nixons' visit. This implies that the Obamaic line of stabilizing the AFG front and withdrawing with good face is now in its second phase. USA has gone back to its racial and religious straitjackets to decide that it needs TSP to survive and is yet reliable or useful as a stooge.

The US admin is now drawing in PRC into the bargaining. Here, once the decision to preserve TSP has been taken, TSP's infantile disorder of demanding freedom to act on Indian territory or gradually incorporate or destabilize at least the northern productive areas will have to be dealt with. Here China will be most willing to give greater support/concessions to TSP territorially for to Chinese current elite - India has to be broken up or destroyed so that no economic rival remains in Asia, and the road to IOR opens up without any blockage.

It is this Chinese willingness to give more to TSP that will and perhaps has already forced the USA to open up bragaining with PRC. Given that the northern half of India has been more or less homogenized politically under the INC, at least electorally, with sole outliers being MP and Gujarat, and Bihar and WB slated to be electoral targets in the coming phases, the GOI will have a massive official legitimacy to negotiate on international affairs.

A degree of concession on J&K to both separatists as well as TSP type Jihadis is likely - and will be justified on the basis of "bringing peace", stability to the region, and safeguarding the economic development programme within India. At least this is how it will be sold to and by the media. The people may or may not fall for it and the danger for GOI lies in the potential political costs once the real agenda of TSP+PRC+USA(+UK/EU) becomes clear in its fallout. For this reason, the process will be kept under tight wraps and will only perhaps be presented as inevitable/unavoidable/reluctantly but forced to go into considering the "heart rending consequences otherwise" for the "aam aadmi" etc.

I would like to request all my gentle detractors here who were quite disappointed with my suggestion, that the "north" may be unable to resist a concerted and coordinated move by external forces with internal tacit/deluded/"misguided" help - to think again. It should not be taken as a titally negative thinking. If it happens, it will force ruptures within tightly linked and networked family groups where people will be forced to choose between collaboration to preserve valued material assets and migration/flight to preserve ideological/cultural values. Unless such a rupture is forced on the society - the essential fighting capacity of the society to resist such external manipulation is compromised.
Detailed explanation of the above.
brihaspati wrote: I think we have already engaged once in the discussion about the "core". For me, as before, the core is simply not a certain population living in a fixed geographical area and whatever they practice. The core is an idea of a certain identity and society which is carried on (or revived) by a living group of people. Further, the external manifestation of this "idea" can change from time to time, but there is always an underlying acknowledgement of continuity and heritage from the past forms.

Thus just what the larger majority of Indian populations practice in their geographic area of the northern plains at a given time point in history, does not necessarily define the core for me. There still are elments of ideologies or beliefs that identify with sources outside of India as their primary affiliation and identity. For such elements, the "continuity" is with something all whose contexts and imagery have no fit with the Indian historical, geographical or anthropological experience.

So any weakening or "fall" of the north, does not necessarily mean that the "core" is compromised.

What, I meant in that brief paragraph, was that there are certain disturbing features in northern Indian politics and the immediate neighbouhood of India that can potentially indicate a degree of political and territorial adjustments. Whether such an adjustment will be seen to be anti-India or not will depend on what "India' means to a given individual or group.

The crisis features as I see them, (which I have also mentioned before), are the situations developing in AFPAK, PRC strategic moves territorially and politically, removal of effective opposition to virtual one party dominance as affected by the electorate of northern India, the reactivation of Maoist violence, intensification of Jihad, and no media or rashtryia attack (and sometimes even tacit participation) to suppress overt attempt at politicization of religious agenda if and only if that attempt is not coming from what can be considered "Hindu".

The AFPAK situation follows so far what I had proposed many months ago - that Obama's policy will be to first stabilize the AFG front and then withdraw saving global face. If the initial military campaign to oust the Talebs fails, then the search will be on to invent a "good Taleban" and force a gov of national consensus. The problem here is of course that the Talebs are just one extension of the Islamic Jihadi thinking of the Paki variety that hopes to revive a Caliphate, with the other extensions being the pro-Taleb portions of TSPA and ISI. Without going into the elaborate details I have given before, my estimate is that for various reasons, the US will be forced to withdraw. In doing this they will still want to retain a toehold on the subcontinent and they will not consider India as a more reliable ally than TSP (again due to racial and theological shortsightedness). The civilian gov of TSP will be forced to retreat virtually to the south, whereas the southern AFG, Pakjab, POK forms a virtually semi-independent Islamic state controlled by Talebjabis and protected by the claims of possessing nukes. The USA may actually allow this to happen to prevent further strengthening of PRC handle in this area. The PRC can and perhaps will give less conditional support to Talebjabis, because it wants to displace USA as the key power in the region and it wants India destroyed to eliminate economic competition and gain undisputed access to IOR.

Here the Talebjabis can actually bargain with both to extract protection of Talebjabi efforts to expand into India. (A Taleb spokesperson has already expressed such pious aspirations). For PRC, Talebjabi expansion into India is actually welcome for its own strategic reasons. For USA it can become a necessary bargaining point to concede. And the first casualty of such understanding will be Indian claim on J&K. Such concessions need not look alarming externally at first. And I think, if it takes the form of the "Irish" settlement, it will indicate that the USA+UK have at least the bargaining upperhand for the moment.

The GOI is taking steps to appear belligerent and "strong" along the eastern borders. But whether GOI can manage four different fronts surrounding the north is a different issue. Here the encirclement of the northern plains are being effected by Jihadi+TSPA incursions into J&K, possible posturings on Aksai by PRC, PRC moves around AP in the far east and reactivation of separatist violence in NE, the Maoist reactivation in the east and centre, and Jihadi terror in the west and south.

All these factors taken together may not be manageable, given acceptance of fractured identities and claims of excluvism. The ineffectivity of "fighting back" can come from a genuine dilemma of hesitation to hit back on people whom you have been taught to see also to be "Indians", but who could now themselves be hesitating as to identities. A political and military retreat may mean temporary loss of territory or manpower, but actually forces people to choose sides. Those who will find it absolutely unacceptable to compromise on the "core" ideas will migrate/flee to consolidate elsewhere. Such a physical separation also disrupts, family-social-friendship-identity networks that sometimes binds our freedom to act. This is what I meant.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by NRao »

a_kumar wrote: While the Iraq war was well debated all over, the Konduz episode perplexed me quite a bit. How was PA/ISI let off the hook very easily?

Was US "being nice" owing to the Pentagon/CIA's generals of cold war (aka. honorary Pakistanis)? That was the time when US could have gotten a whole lot more for a $1B than they can now get for even $20B.
The official story is that India did make the US aware of the real content of this airlift. Remember that the Pakis then had claimed they need to pull their own people out and therefore needed "safe passage". The US then (and even now I guess) was/is too naive. Then they thought the Pakistanis to be too knowledgeable, now the US is over cooking the situation and thinking themselves to be rather smart.
Another thought : We can point the finger at Uncle all we want.. but if India had enough assets on ground to get good intel on the PA/ISI airlifts, why wasn't even one of them downed? Surely, Afghanistan at that time still had a lot of sams around! That would have put the spotlight on the underbelly of the region.
The US was fully aware - they are the ones who provided safe passage. But they were aware of teh flights, not that they contained a rather large dose of top level Talibans and AQ.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by Malayappan »

Kilcullen: It’s all or nothing, Mr. President from Foreign Policy

Apart from the usual stuff on corruption (yawn!), buried -
We're seeing tribes associated with the Northern Alliance re-arming. ... A lot of people are getting nervous
"Right now we're sending kind of a message of indecision."
The Omar-Taliban's rise to power was an ISI project. The Pak military islamists believe it's their right to control Afghanistan and war in Kashmir, with the kind of fundamentalist fervor we associate with the Israeli right of conquest. ISI hasn't given up on their Afghan project, thru the last 8 years of waiting the US out.

The US is watching our cash flow to Pakistan's generals pretty closely these days. That means their islamist project has to be funded off the grid. Nuke sales are curtailed somewhat.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by ramana »

By mentioning a role for China in the India-TSP relations the US is assuring the TSP that it wont be let down. This might appear a cheap alternative but usually when the TSP gets such assurance they launch on their bold initiatives. Every war with India had Western or PRC backing for TSP.

Meanwhile View from Moscow in Pioneer


LINK
No you can’t win this war

Dmitry Kosyrev

Confusion reigns supreme as Washington flounders

A new scandal over leaked confidential information has shaken Washington, DC. It is not in every country that confidential messages to top Government officials are published in the leading media within a week.

US Ambassador to Afghanistan Karl Eikenberry, who once commanded forces there, has told President Barack Obama that bolstering the American presence in Afghanistan would not make the country more reliant on the US unless President Hamid Karzai’s Government demonstrates willingness to fight corruption and other vices, which are only strengthening the Taliban.

Mr Obama was considering four options for sending between 10,000 and 40,000 troops to Afghanistan, which will cost between $ 33 and $ 50 billion annually, and wanted to know how long it would take to see results and be able to withdraw. It was at that time that newspapers published the Ambassador’s opinion.

Mr Eikenberry thinks that the US will not attain its goals in Afghanistan without replacing Mr Karzai’s Government.

It is not surprising that the Press has published information about the confidential messages because Afghanistan is the biggest problem of the United States and, in general, the Western civilisation. The point at issue is not just billions of dollars but human lives. Britain has lost 200 servicemen there, but was it worth it?

It has also become clear that the August presidential election in Afghanistan organised by the US has seriously undermined American aspirations there.

The Obama Administration regarded the Afghan election as a key element of the efforts to solve the Afghan problem. But when Mr Karzai and his supporters were accused of framing the election results, they opted for the worst possible scenario: Vote recounting.

When it turned out that a second round of the election was needed, US diplomats did their best to wrench an agreement from Mr Karzai. And then they looked like idiots when the Afghan President’s opponent withdrew his candidacy.

Mr Karzai took it unkindly and is now openly speaking his mind about the US policy in his country, which explains Mr Eikenberry’s disappointment and messages.But Mr Karzai was bound to speak up after the US had done its best to show the Afghans [/b]— as if they did not know this — that their President is a puppet with many American masters who cannot even agree in which direction to pull his strings.

One can rule Afghanistan without elections, but never without respect.

While that black comedy was still playing out, US President Barack Obama said at the UN: “Democracy cannot be imposed on any nation from the outside. Each society must search for its own path ... rooted in the culture of its people and in its past traditions.”

This sounds fine, but the US and the Western civilisation as a whole have not yet found a way to encourage Afghanistan to pursue such a path. In a word, the agony can last long, and the US will either find a new style of behaviour in Afghanistan or it will lose everything (Europe is a separate issue).

Meanwhile, many countries have become more active in the Afghan affairs, thereby creating an alternative to the US policy there. The UN General Assembly has adopted a resolution on Afghanistan unanimously and at the initiative of Germany, which is an unprecedented occurrence. The resolution reads that Afghanistan’s presidential election was both credible and sound.

Then Japan decided to increase its aid package to Afghanistan from $ 3 billion to $ 5 billion within five years. Other donor countries are currently negotiating in Istanbul, Turkey, which means that the international community is not going to curtail aid to Afghanistan.

The reason for all of the above is simple: The US wants to review its operations abroad, first of all in Afghanistan and near it, but when it needs to do something in a new way with Russia’s assistance, it becomes paralysed. :?:

-- The writer is a political affairs columnist based in Moscow.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by Ananya »

Mr Gandhi is trying to be very good with everybody and is reluctant to take the bull by it horns. he is trying to make pals with everybody and all countries except india are talking hime for a ride. He has ended up talking the ball from Saudis and put it into China's lap.

Now TSP will think that this is Allal's gift/call that PRC would attack india incase of a Ind-pak war and plan for another Kargil.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by ramana »

ramana wrote:Cutting to the chase this is what I see as viable. I can go on and on about the factors that influence Afghanistan but it will be like a RAND report or worse IDSA article.

PLAN:

- US increase troop presence and crushes bad Taliban. Otherwise it will lose and the malaise kicks in.
- US manages TSP while doing this. Not at cost of any other nation.
- The good Taliban get regularized into para-military scouts etc. Crucial to get them under a uniform and get rid of their tribal dress. The Afghan National Army still gets its share of Tajiks and Uzbegs and Hazaras as top layer to guarantee the ethnic rights.
- The Ghilzais and Durranis have to make up and work out a compromise certified by the loya jirga to ensure Pashtun solidarity.
- An all powers conference to declare Afghan neutrality is crucial to return Afghanistan to buffer status like in the 19th century. This is to neutralize any wet dreams of wannabe jihadis. Same time all the ethnic areas will have millat/autonomy status: Pashtuns, Tajiks and Hazaras and Uzbegs. The rights of sub-minorities in these areas are guaranteed by Afghan National Govt eg. Pashtuns in Tajik areas und so weiter.

A G-8/OECD/INDIA and PRC economic program has to be worked out to stabilize the country. US will have the TSP economic stabilization program.

A strong advice is to seek Pashtun autonomy in TSP as a self determination right same as the Kurds in Iraq to satisfy the self determination rights. as this is related to the Afghan issue.


Obama to order 30,000 troops to Afghanistan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8387065.stm


8)

I should have called this the BRF Af-Pak Plan.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 75#p769675
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by shyamd »

As Obama hands Afghanistan commanders new orders, Mullah Omar warns of US defeat
DEBKAfile Special Report

November 30, 2009, 10:44 PM (GMT+02:00)
Afghan Taliban chief Mullah Omar relocates

As US president Barack Obama informed senior military chiefs in Afghanistan Monday, Nov. 30, they would receive another 30,000 US and 10,000 extra troops from eight NATO countries, Afghan Taliban leader Mullah Omar tried to get the jump on him by warning that the US and its allies faced defeat.

Obama briefed UK, French, Russian and Italian leaders on his much-awaited new strategy for the Afghanistan conflict before unveiling it in a speech Tuesday. Indian intelligence sources report he is hiding in Karachi after Pakistan Inter-Services Intelligence helped smuggle him out of his secret headquarters in Quetta, Baluchistan.

From his new hideout, Omar Mullah warned the White House:

"Considering the present facts in Afghanistan, you and your allies are facing inevitable defeat which will remain whether by sending more troops or taking a series of illogical strategies." The Afghan Taliban leader went on to say: "And may you know that the logic of using force today has lost its effect, and you cannot control the Afghani people through monetary force or your satanic trickery."

According to DEBKAfile's military sources, the last sentence referred to US plans to pay out large monthly stipends to tribal and commanders in order to lure thousands of Taliban fighters into switching sides, a gambit which worked in Iraq for drawing Sunni Arab tribal chieftains into declaring war on al Qaeda.

US and Afghan sources report that, since last month when Congress appropriated $1.3 billion to fund this program, 8,000 fighting men have reneged from Taliban ranks and either joined the Kabul government's armed forces or laid down their arms and stopped attacking American troops.

Our military sources estimate that this figure inflated or at least far from cut and dried. Some Taliban leaders may have accepted the stipends and, rather than retiring, used the money to rest, rearm and regroup for the next round of warfare. Some Afghans may have given out an encouraging figure because they kept some of the funds back in their own pockets.

Mullah Omar's message started out by saying "Our mujahid people will not accept negotiations designed to grant legitimacy to the continued occupation of their country." He stressed: "Afghanistan is our home and no one accepts negotiations for sharing their home and managing it…" to become "a slave for an oppressor."

In the last fortnight, it has been rumored in Afghanistan and Pakistan that the US and the Afghan Taliban are indirectly negotiating indirectly an end to the conflict and the withdrawal of US and other NATO forces from the country through Saudi and Pakistani intermediaries.

There are now roughly 68,000 U.S. troops and 42,000 allied forces in Afghanistan.

Sunday, Nov. 29, US Republican Representative Mike Coffman, who returned from a visit to Afghanistan with a group of lawmakers, reported on a briefing they received from US-NATO commander Gen. Stanley McChrystal:

"I asked him: 'If you get these troops that you are requesting, the 40,000, where's the tipping point? At what point will we begin to draw down?''

"McChrystal responded: 'Sometime before 2013.'

Pentagon officials had no comment to make on this assertion.

This and other signs indicate to DEBKAfile's military sources that the policy Obama is preparing to unveil is not geared to winning the Afghanistan war but ending the US military involvement from a position of strength, not weakness. Mullah Omar's message on Monday shows that he appreciates the US president's underlying purpose.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by NRao »

sum
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by sum »

"I asked him: 'If you get these troops that you are requesting, the 40,000, where's the tipping point? At what point will we begin to draw down?''

"McChrystal responded: 'Sometime before 2013.'
So, the Pakis sit back and keep a low profile till 2013( with only "minor"/under the radar attacks on India thrown in) when they can start unleashing their fangs again?
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by ramana »

NPR was saying that 10K of the troops will be around Kandahar and another 10K around another urban hotbed of bad Taliban (It was mentioned but I didn't catch it). The rest will be training troops who will conduct joint ops with the Afghan National Army. So its combat troops to cordon the bad Taliban areas and trainers to stiffen the ANA.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by NRao »

We need to look at his economic ideas too. Heard that he is bypassing Karzai - completely. Most aid is going directly to local agencies and then some is going directly to various ministries.

WRT "Taliban" the US HAS to solve that beast within Pakistan. And, that has to mean the PA and ISI, nothing less. Else this will be another futile exercise.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by ramana »

Nightwatch comments on the Jones visit to TSP
http://nightwatch.afcea.org/NightWatch_20091130.htm
Pakistan: U.S. President Obama offered Pakistan an expanded strategic partnership, including additional military and economic cooperation, while warning against Pakistan's use of insurgent groups to pursue policy goals, The Washington Post reported 30 November.

US National Security Adviser James Jones delivered the offer, including an effort to reduce tension between Pakistan and India, to President Asif Ali Zardari. It was accompanied by assurances of increases in U.S. military and civilian efforts in Afghanistan and no early withdrawal plans.

Jones supposedly threatened that if Pakistan cannot deliver, the United States may use any means to rout insurgents based along Pakistan's borders with Afghanistan.

Comment: The New York Times and the Washington Post both published journalist reports that Zardari is in trouble and his government is in danger of collapse. That might be the case, but Readers should not understand those dire warnings as predicting the collapse of the government in Islamabad.

Pakistan’s national government is a modified presidential-parliamentary system, owing to changes Musharraf made but failed to institutionalize. Zardari swore an oath to relinquish the powers of a strong president and did transfer control of nuclear weapons to the Prime Minister over the weekend – two years after he vowed to surrender that and other powers.

The US has a public declaratory policy of dealing with governments not personalities, but in the case of Pakistan every policy action has been based on the personality of the Pakistani president.

Zardari promised in 2007 and 2008 that the government would revert to the Westminster model. One of the reasons for the strong political opposition is his failure to keep that promise. He is corrupt. His appointees are corrupt. His lack of sensitivity to national security issues felt strongly by the Army leadership is astonishing. The Army despises him. Plus, he has not been a visionary or a good economic manager.

All of that does not add up to the collapse of the Pakistani government, only to a shift in the center of power, back to the Parliament, most likely with Army backing. The Army leaders seem to get along with Prime Minister Gilani, who should be the constitutional head of government.

The nuances of the political crisis in Islamabad were buried deep in the US press treatments. Personal assurances by President Zardari or by Army Chief General Kayani are not the same as agreements between governments. Every Reader knows that Zardari was acting on borrowed time in violation of his own promises. Any US officials who predicated policies on his longevity made foolish judgments. The same is true of Kayani who must retire in six months or so.

Zardari’s reversion to a ceremonial president, which is the direction government is heading, does not mean necessarily a reduction in government leadership. It means Pakistan is trying to return to its parliamentary roots, departing from the Musharraf era’s dalliance with an American-style presidency.

The unanswered question is whether the Pakistan Army Corps commanders are willing to accept government by the elected representatives of the people, as opposed to government by appointed officers in a closed, elitist and unrepresentative military social system.

US support for the last steps in Pakistan’s political normalization – including the reversion of the president to ceremonial status -- will be critical to ensuring the Army does not seize power again. Zardari is an easy target for international news coverage, but he is not the government of Pakistan and he has always known it!
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by Gagan »

A casual look at the US media and the various 3 letter news networks here, and they are all talking of president Obama "Laying out and Exit strategy" from afghanistan.

Noticeably not one news network is talking of the Plan or future strategy for afghanistan-pakistan or even of terrorism. The VDM (Videshi Dork Media) is on to a single-point agenda, war is bad bring our boys home.

Because the powers that be in foggy bottom have taken care not to hurt pakistan's sensitivities by naming it as being responsible for terrorism in the first place, instead calling it an ally, the media uses that as a clique in all its renderings. There is no appreciation of the fact that the terror factories or the motivation for terrorism is still alive and kicking and flourishing.

Ombaba is supposed to give a live speech at 7PM eastern time (new york time) tonight to outline his strategy.
NRao
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by NRao »

The question is how viable is 2013? Mad, mad, mad world.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by ramana »

What is 2013?
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by Marut »

ramana wrote:What is 2013?
The anticipated timeline when the 40000 troop increase requested should help them draw down their commitment in Afghanistan.

See shyamd & sum's post a few above for the report and context.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by Gagan »

When is that CIA's projected map showing an Independent Balochistan and Pashtunistan due for? Is it around the same time period? :D
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by NRao »

Listening to News Hour. And, I THOUGHT I heard a Congresswoman from FL state that the Obama Draw down date is July 2011!!!!

Let us see.

added l8r:

Yup. Google shows plenty of URLs: http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009 ... rocess.php
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by NRao »

By the way, the estimated cost is $1 billion per 1000 soldiers per year.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by NRao »

We NEED to remember that this is "Af-Pak".

Drawdown HAS to mean that Pakistan has also got to take care of their end of the bargain. Per reports, Jones mentioned to the Pakis that either Pakis take care of the problem on their "side of the border" or the US will do that. ALL this within July 2011!!!!

God bless.

Added l8r:

NYTimes reporter claims that, internally, the Obama Admin has estimated that this problem would take between 5 to 10 years to resolve!!!!! And, that the issue is "cost". No one is willing to bear that cost. So, it seems (to me) that they worked backwards - BASED on cost - and thus came up with the July 2011 date!!!
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by Y. Kanan »

It may look like the US is only now making the decision to "exit" from Afghanistan, but truth to be told this was decided in 2007, when the Central Asian republics formally abandoned the US-supported Af-Pak pipeline scheme, and instead chose to take the longer route through Russia.

When that happened, I thought "well that's it then - the game is up" and predicted the US would be leaving Afghanistan within a few years. I said so right here on this forum, in fact.

We better get ready.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by amdavadi »

cross posted from nukkad thread.

BIL has been ask get ready for af. He didnt say much, but DLI told him to get ready.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by Mort Walker »

The cost will be $30 billion and drawdown stating July 2011 in time for the 2012 presidential election.

Pay close attention to funding requests to the US congress. The promise of "strategic partnership" with TSP is dubious. Its macro economic situation is unstable and there is no prospect of improvement. Therefore, there is a good possibilty that TSP will receive even more funds for terror and conflict with India.

The threats to TSP can not be taken seriously as unkil has already secretly provided $1.1 billion for securing their bums.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by pgbhat »

ramana
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by ramana »

ramana wrote:
ramana wrote:Cutting to the chase this is what I see as viable. I can go on and on about the factors that influence Afghanistan but it will be like a RAND report or worse IDSA article.

PLAN:

- US increase troop presence and crushes bad Taliban. Otherwise it will lose and the malaise kicks in.
- US manages TSP while doing this. Not at cost of any other nation.
- The good Taliban get regularized into para-military scouts etc. Crucial to get them under a uniform and get rid of their tribal dress. The Afghan National Army still gets its share of Tajiks and Uzbegs and Hazaras as top layer to guarantee the ethnic rights.
- The Ghilzais and Durranis have to make up and work out a compromise certified by the loya jirga to ensure Pashtun solidarity.
- An all powers conference to declare Afghan neutrality is crucial to return Afghanistan to buffer status like in the 19th century. This is to neutralize any wet dreams of wannabe jihadis. Same time all the ethnic areas will have millat/autonomy status: Pashtuns, Tajiks and Hazaras and Uzbegs. The rights of sub-minorities in these areas are guaranteed by Afghan National Govt eg. Pashtuns in Tajik areas und so weiter.

A G-8/OECD/INDIA and PRC economic program has to be worked out to stabilize the country. US will have the TSP economic stabilization program.

A strong advice is to seek Pashtun autonomy in TSP as a self determination right same as the Kurds in Iraq to satisfy the self determination rights. as this is related to the Afghan issue.


8)

I should have called this the BRF Af-Pak Plan.

Not bad for three of the principal plan elements!
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by arun »

The former Military Dictator of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, General Prevez Musharraf.

Buffs up his South Asian credentials by demonstrating concern for terrorism in India :roll: :
From 2004 onwards, we witnessed a gradual shift in the terrorist center of gravity. The Taliban started to re-emerge in Afghanistan and gradually gained a dominant role. They developed ties with the Taliban in Pakistan's tribal areas, especially in North and South Waziristan. With a grand strategy to destabilize the whole region, the Taliban and al Qaeda established links with extremists in Pakistani society on the one hand and with Muslim fundamentalists in India on the other. They pose a grave threat to South Asia and peace in the world.
Read it all in the Wall Street Journal:

The Afghan-Pakistan Solution
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by abhishek_sharma »

This guy is a hypocrite.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by kasthuri »

abhishek_sharma wrote:This guy is a hypocrite.
Since the exit has been charted out, India has no choice than to integrate its economic interests with the security interest in Af'stan by some form of troop deployment or training of Afghan troops in India. Somewhere down the line they (the two interests) should be lined up.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by Gagan »

The americans are not fools, is the premise that I go by.

The fact that Pakistan was not mentioned too much means that pakistan specifically the pak fauj is going to get a danda and a carrot both up its musharraf to defang the pigs it armed and trained. I heard the term no more blank cheques being mentioned, and apparently it applies to AfPak as a whole.
The Pak fauj is going to be kept away from indulging in coups as its primary raison d'être and concentrate on providing more AlQ no 3s faster than they can replace.

The pressure on the talibs is going to be high, the pressure on the Pak fauj is going to be high, and there will be blow back on the jihad loving people of pakistan.

So everyone in BRF gets to be happy, more IED mubaraks, more disgruntlement and bad blood between the army of the land of the pure and the purer than the purest students of Islam.

This seems to be the extreme optimistic side of the view, how close will the US get there, only time will tell.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by Sanjay M »

Obama: 'Afghanistan is not Vietnam'



A fair remark
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by NRao »

This is something India should be more than be able to live with.

All in all this is a good start.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by kenop »

Of course, this burden is not ours alone to bear. This is not just America's war. Since 9/11, al Qaeda's safe-havens have been the source of attacks against London and Amman and Bali. The people and governments of both Afghanistan and Pakistan are endangered. And the stakes are even higher within a nuclear-armed Pakistan, because we know that al Qaeda and other extremists seek nuclear weapons, and we have every reason to believe that they would use them.
Naturally, the focus is on their own interests while the DDM is reporting that Pakistan is mentioned as the epricentre of terror. This is what Ombaba said
So no – I do not make this decision lightly. I make this decision because I am convinced that our security is at stake in Afghanistan and Pakistan. This is the epicenter of the violent extremism practiced by al Qaeda. It is from here that we were attacked on 9/11, and it is from here that new attacks are being plotted as I speak.
Wonder what MMS will say about the recent visit and its impact on US approach with respect to India. Ombaba did call up MMS to outline his Af-Pak plan. "Sorry pal, no cookies for you" looks like the message wrapped in fluff.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Expansion in Pakistan

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/02/world ... ategy.html

Yet quietly, Mr. Obama has authorized an expansion of the war in Pakistan as well — if only he can get a weak, divided, suspicious Pakistani government to agree to the terms.
The expanded operations could include drone strikes in the southern province of Baluchistan, where senior Afghan Taliban leaders are believed to be hiding, officials said.
That was the message delivered in recent weeks to Pakistani officials by Gen. James L. Jones, the national security adviser. But the Pakistanis, suspicious of Mr. Obama’s intentions and his staying power, have not yet agreed.
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Re: Af-Pak Watch

Post by abhishek_sharma »

http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/200 ... mas_speech
1. Why does he believe that 30,000 more troops will lead to success in Afghanistan, given that the ratio of foreign troops relative to the local population will still be much smaller than the number required for successful military occupations?
4. What domestic programs or military expenditures will be cut in order to pay for this escalation? Alternatively, what new revenue sources is Obama planning to exploit in order to fund an expanded war? (I don't really expect him to answer this question, but its one we should all be asking.)
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