Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 13 Dec 2009 22:43

The benefit of the erieye & the Il-78 is that it offers an extremely mobile C4I and turnaround facilities to the Fiza'ya that always lacked strategic defence in depth since its static bases & radar net were too close to the border for command & replenishment.

Vinod TK - surely they'll have to go past some of the Black Panthers @ Goa and the birds @ Sulur?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Dec 2009 23:14

What if you reverse the direction of traffic, hain?

The evil SDRE Yindians have the thunder legged Rambha who can dance all the way up the underbelly of Fizzle'Ya....too many possibilities I tell you.....

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 14 Dec 2009 00:43

Executing the impossible tasks wins wars/battles. Pakistan will be able to find six pilots who will be willing to under take the dangerous mission. Such a mission will not win the war for Pakistan, however it will be a huge psychological blow to India. A mission to South Indian targets would be equivalent to Jimmy Doolittle’s raid over Japan; some of the pilots made it to China and back to US, and many did not (acceptable loss). The raid did not win the war for America, however for the first time the war was taken to mainland Japan, which had a huge impact on the Japanese population.

I am not an expert on the logistics and air combat; I will say one thing from Pakistan’s point of view such a mission would be very tempting. As for Pakistan, it would not care if it lost the pilots (acceptable loss), as for the loss of aircraft, Pakistan is not losing its money, most of the money for their weapons is aid or no stop Christmas gifts from China.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 Dec 2009 02:26

khan is right, we mustnt be flippant about it. if used correctly, both the eeriye and midas can be significant force multipliers. the question is will they be used for offense or defence? in both scenarios there are limitations - and risks. a lot depends on the pak high command's post war scenario strategy

khan · Post by **khan** » 14 Dec 2009 04:29

Lalmohan wrote:khan is right, we mustnt be flippant about it. if used correctly, both the eeriye and midas can be significant force multipliers. the question is will they be used for offense or defence? in both scenarios there are limitations - and risks. a lot depends on the pak high command's post war scenario strategy

They do not think defensively, we do and we project that expectation on other people. First contact with the Paki's will be at a time and place of their choosing - unless someone with testicles comes to power on our side.

The AW&C planes, the mid-air refuellers, the Chinese junk they are buying and the new F-16's changes the game significantly. A lot of fourmites are acting like the PAF is stuck in 2003. While the Paki's cannot "win" a war, they can cause significant damage in the couple of days it will take for the UN to come and save this a$$.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 14 Dec 2009 05:40

Can't agree with Khan more. Just to reatirate

I see a general tendency to ridicule their acquisitions as silly/resource-intensive blah blah. That may be so for conventional war fighting that lasts days or weeks. What we face is unconventional and asymmetric fight that Pakistan intends (And China via Pakistan). This is spiky in nature and any thing that enhances the spike is a threat!

Our response seems to be "Bring it on, but you will pay".

Pakistan has huge number of strategies when it "Brings it on". New additions result in more options, makes them bolder and distracts Indian resources, which are already limited. By being reactionary, our options are already limited and worse, even their efficacy will be marginal since Pakistan as fore-knowledge of any adventure.

Added Later : Not to mean it is doomsday. But can't afford to take it easy either.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 14 Dec 2009 05:52

rohitvats wrote:What if you reverse the direction of traffic, hain?

What are you going to gain by reversing the direction. It is a target poor country, unless you want to bomb the huts and houses. There are no economic targets to hit.

For an aggressor all it takes is for one or two planes to get in, then we will be seeing the after effects (pictures) on TV throughout the world for days. We are talking about India's economic crown jewels.

I do not consider the acquisition of the aircraft by PAK as the end of the world; at the same time India has a lot more to worry and respond to.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Dec 2009 06:13

Dmurphy wrote:
Gagan wrote:The SAAB eyrie is headed the same way into chinese hands to improve its KJ-2000 AWACS.
I'm no radar expert, but KJ-2000 being a chapati carrier and Eyrie being a belan carrier, how will the Eyrie technology help the KJ but for ina very limited way?

Inside the Chapati are three Belans, arranged in an equilateral triangle to provide 360 degrees coverage.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Dec 2009 06:25

The IAF chief has said that there are 5000 targets identified. They will be triaged to the ones that have to be taken out within ~6hrs of the beginning of hostilities, ~ 24 Hrs later etc.

There is a huge difference in technology and capabilities between the Pak Fizzaiya and the IAF. The pakistanis lose out on morale, numbers and technology.

The only thing deterring the IAF I guess is pakistan's SAM network as it goes in to bomb targets. Its Fizzaiya will not be flying after 4-5 days or so.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 14 Dec 2009 09:26

I know I started the they are simply useless in war, but just to clarify IAF will not take it lightly. The refuellers and eyerie will not be allowed to wander without surveillance within 200 Km of the border. This is where the LRTR and Master-A/T radars will come handy not to mention Phalcon and CABS Awacs. The CABS awacs macthes eyerie and would be useful in numbers while porkis or plaaf have no answer to Phalcon. I hope IAF is seriously investing in KS-172 and R-37's to counter them .

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Dec 2009 09:34

whichever way you look at it, these assets would make any IAF strike against TSP targets that much harder. not enough to tilt the balance surely but enough to increase headache of top brass. it will not help them in any offensive role though, they don't have the assets for that.

both these are meant to make pakistani airspace impregnable, the AEW&C to give good SA and early warning of any Indian move and the refuelers to keep the handful of capable fighters flying CAP in air for a longer time and the added flexibility of basing fighters in interior bases rather than forward ones near the border.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 14 Dec 2009 13:35

perhaps in any future conflict , we won't even need to go in Pak skies . I'm sure the IAF top brass has taken into account all the preparations which TSP is making to protect it's own airspace and evolving a different strategy altogether.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 14 Dec 2009 18:09

a_kumar wrote:Can't agree with Khan more. Just to reatirate

I see a general tendency to ridicule their acquisitions as silly/resource-intensive blah blah. That may be so for conventional war fighting that lasts days or weeks. What we face is unconventional and asymmetric fight that Pakistan intends (And China via Pakistan). This is spiky in nature and any thing that enhances the spike is a threat!

Our response seems to be "Bring it on, but you will pay".

Pakistan has huge number of strategies when it "Brings it on". New additions result in more options, makes them bolder and distracts Indian resources, which are already limited. By being reactionary, our options are already limited and worse, even their efficacy will be marginal since Pakistan as fore-knowledge of any adventure..

+ 1

IL-78 is a game changed for PAF. and used in combination with Erieye and P-3 it will mean that many pilots will loose their lives in the intitial days of war and the IAF has more "work" to do, even if we are to win in the long run.

Today IL-78, but after 10 years these can be replaced by A-330s as well. I wonder what stops us from building up our IL-78 fleet via second hand acquisiton...

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Dec 2009 18:22

Pardon me for my ignorance, when did PAF get IL-78

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 Dec 2009 18:25

Starting yesterday....link and article posted above ( or in prev page leading to this long discussion on how the PAF has gained a lot)

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 15 Dec 2009 07:32

Indo-German Partnership and TSP Implication

{German ambassador Thomas Matussek}Mr. Matussek said Germany was keen on supplying military equipment, including submarines, for the Navy. It preferred to have India as a strategic partner and, precisely for that reason, shelved the decision to supply similar equipment to Pakistan, he said.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Dec 2009 07:47

using the Ereyies and IL78s couldnt they maintain an orbit over western NWFP and western baluchistan safely out of reach of IAF interceptors but good enough to provide coverage over the Indus valley. they could even intrude over Af airspace at will, as Af doesnt have any airforce or SAMs to lend teeth to its protests.

I suspect its matter of 2-3 years before the PRC lays out $1b worth of S300
clone systems (small missiles to provide cover, big missiles to threaten iaf planes flying around within india).

we should treat Pak as the western armed wing of PRC and prepare accordingly. obviously a strong increase in AEW, refueling, EW/ELINT, ALCM and SEAD assets are called for to degrade and neutralize the S300 batteries.

the Rus wont betray their biggest S300 client. but Israel is said to have
defeated the Syrian S300s to strike at their nuclear facility + they have the
lucrative Barak8 and BarakNG contracts...they might be willing to share their expertise and intel on it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Dec 2009 07:55

AFAIK Syria does not use S-300 and S-300 comes in many variants exactly which variant did they develop effective countermeasures for ?

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 16 Dec 2009 14:38

PAF Mirage crashes in Chakawal, pilot ejects

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 17 Dec 2009 22:29

Who is paying for pakistan's military aqusitions given that they are virtually dependent on the Friends of Pakistan and the Kerry lugar bill for substenence?
Either this is the money that the US is giving their army in lieu of services rendered in the ongoing war against terror, or China is footing part of the bill.

It is interesting that pakistan's imports from Europe are some of the things and technology that china would be interesting in procuring, but because of the ban on military exports to china from europe this is not possible.

So the Pakistanis import stuff from europe and let the chinese take a deep look into the mil hardware and software to possibly reverse engineer it.

Some of the items of interest to china would be:
1. Eyrie radar and software
2. Agosta Subs
3. The drone tech that these pakistanis keep begging the US to give them
4. The various missiles they have acquired. Everything from the Harpoons to the Amraams to the Brazilian HARMs would eventually be shared with the chinese. They must surely have shared the AIM-9s and 6s, as also the copperhead artillery shells, and the croatle and other SAMs they have in the past, as also the F-16s that the US was cribbing about. The tomahawk(s) that crashed when Bill Clinton attacked Bin Laden's camps were also taken over by chinese engineers, with the pakistanis covering the crash sites with white tents, in an attempt to salvage whatever information that could be gained from those crashed missiles.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 18 Dec 2009 13:21

THOUGH THE NEWS IS SOMEWHAT FROM POLITICS...YET.....I AM POSTING IT...BECAUSE IT IS AFTER ALL ABOUT PAKISTAN..!

Military coup ruled out in Pakistan amid crisis

On Friday, a spokesman for Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari dismissed rumors of a coup in politically destabilized country.

"There is no coup," said the president's spokesman, Farhatullah Babar.

The coup rumors started after a government minister suspected of corruption was prevented from leaving the country.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 18 Dec 2009 13:31

How do they known there is no coup. Maybe no soup. But how so sure about coup

arun · Post by **arun** » 19 Dec 2009 15:59

While the article is three months old, I do not recollect it having been posted earlier and so I am taking the liberty of posting the complete synopsis of the article which has been provided here. :

Pakistani Capabilities for a Counterinsurgency Campaign: A Net Assessment

By Sameer Lalwani,
New America Foundation
Published: September 17, 2009

Executive Summary

As a more effective Taliban steps up its operations along the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, Western observers increasingly are calling on Pakistan to implement a strategy of population-security counterinsurgency, or COIN. This paper will offer a net assessment of Pakistan's military capabilities to conduct such a campaign based on clearly stated assumptions, an analysis of open-source materials, and textbook COIN doctrine and best practices. It will examine the gap in Pakistani efforts and the choices required to fill this gap based on 1) the nature of the insurgency, including its strength, capabilities, tactics, and strategic objectives; 2) the terrain challenges posed by the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) and North-West Frontier Province (NWFP), and 3) current and potential Pakistani military capabilities.

Counterinsurgency doctrine calls for political over military solutions, population security over enemy targeting, ground forces over airpower, and small-rather than large-force deployments for missions such as patrols, intelligence gathering, and development assistance. Thus far, the Pakistani military has conducted a campaign that runs nearly counter to all these prescriptions. This is primarily because of a military doctrine that is rooted in a persistent fear of a superior Indian army threatening the Pakistani core, but even if the Pakistani military hypothetically committed to a COIN campaign, it would face many obstacles to success.

The most optimistic scenario would allow Pakistan to redeploy only two-thirds of its forces from the Indian border (no more than 250,000 troops) to conduct COIN operations in the FATA and NWFP, which are projected to last two to five years. That means that its regular and paramilitary forces combined still would fall short of average force ratios necessary for a COIN success and woefully short of higher ratios, likely required given the adverse conditions and terrain Pakistan would face in this regional theater. In addition, Pakistan would need to recruit and manage more than 100,000 men in local militias to assist in holding areas that it cleared of insurgents.

An effective COIN campaign also would require the military to coordinate and combine efforts with Pakistan's civilian government, with which it continues to have poor relations.

Finally, Pakistan's reliance on American support to conduct a COIN campaign and offset its disadvantages actually could prove counterproductive, intensifying public resentment, further eroding morale, and strengthening militant recruitment and cohesion.

Counterinsurgency campaigns have confounded the best militaries in the world, including those of the United States, Britain, and Israel, and Pakistan has many more obstacles to overcome than those powers. Based on its limited capabilities and the tremendous potential costs in blood, treasure, and strategic tradeoffs, this paper finds that the chance of a Pakistani COIN success in its tribal areas is low in the short to medium term. Further, absent a dramatic change in threat assessments or new inducements, the Pakistani military is likely to maintain its current approach to the insurgency because of its gap in capabilities and ignore calls for a COIN strategy.

Sameer Lalwani is a doctoral student in the Department of Political Science and an affiliate of the Security Studies Program at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. He is a Research Fellow with the New America Foundation's American Strategy Program.

Summary Findings

This paper's findings for a prospective Pakistani military COIN campaign include:

1. Shortfalls. Between 370,000 and 430,000 more troops would be needed in the FATA and the NWFP region to meet the minimum force-to-population ratios prescribed by counterinsurgency (COIN) doctrine, much higher than current Pakistani deployments of 150,000, and even this is no assurance of success given adverse conditions. Moreover, Pakistan now is conducting low-intensity warfare rather than using counterinsurgency tactics, partly a function of its military doctrine.

2. Too Big for the Army Alone. Troop numbers required for a COIN campaign in the NWFP and the FATA would necessitate the calling up of Pakistani reserves or the extensive use of lesser-trained and more poorly equipped paramilitary and irregular forces, including the Frontier Corps.

3. Troops Able to be Released From Indian Border. Based on threat perceptions and baseline principles of force-to-force or force-to-space ratios, the Pakistani military likely would release, at most, 207,000 from its Indian border, 55,000 of whom already have been deployed to the tribal theater. Given organizational resistance and absent a steep escalation of the threat, it is highly unlikely that Pakistan would redeploy the additional 152,000 troops to the tribal areas for a COIN operation.

4. Time Frame and Force Composition. The most optimistic time frame for raising and training the requisite forces for a counterinsurgency would be two to five years.

Forces could include:

232,000 irregular forces. This figure would encompass 55,000 members of the Frontier Corps, 33,000 active police, 40,000 rangers, and 104,000 local lashkars.

287,000 regular army troops. This figure is based on the 95,000 troops already present in the region (from the I, IV, X, XI, and XXX Corps), 152,000 troops redeployed from the Indian border, and another 40,000 redeployed from regional corps in Quetta and Karachi.

This highly optimistic accounting could still mean a shortfall of 61,000 troops, which might be filled by reserves and new police and Frontier Corps recruits, all of whom would require time to train.

5. Strategy. Two strategies are possible for the Pakistani military:

A conventional COIN campaign, with an oil-spot strategy that makes the best use of forces based on levels of instability in the region.

An unconventional COIN campaign modeled on the U.S. strategy in Iraq, which depends on irregular forces and favorable events, such as voluntary ceasefires or fissures and defections within the insurgency.

6. Terrain Disadvantages. The demographic and topographic terrain of the FATA and the NWFP are ideal for a protracted insurgency and require higher than average force ratios and far more military assets than Pakistan possesses.

7. A Distant Development Agenda. Even piecemeal development in the region would be questionable, given the realities of the Pakistani economy. More fundamentally, reform would require undermining the power of the country's existing elites and land-owning classes, which dominate the political scene.

8. A Strategic Catch-22. Pakistan's limited resources would necessitate substantial U.S. and Western military aid, assistance in training, and economic support to wage a capital-, labor-, and time-intensive COIN campaign. However, as the U.S. role expands and becomes more visible, Pakistan likely would face a stiff public backlash, a steep decline in the morale of its regular and irregular forces, and a more cohesive insurgency.

9. Needed: An Exogenous Shock. Without substantial change in its threat perceptions of the Taliban or India or new inducements from the United States and NATO, the Pakistani military probably will take a default position on the tribal areas, clearing out extremist elements of the Taliban using current tactics while seeking to cut deals with more moderate elements in the hope that those elements could take control. It would draw on standard divide-and-rule tactics and perhaps on the lashkars. While this approach might stem attacks on Pakistan, it would not end cross-border raids or support of the Taliban's Afghanistan insurgency.

The complete article is available here. Care it is a 3.5 MB download:

Clicky

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Dec 2009 20:14

Pak commissions China-built frigate

Commissioning of F-22P frigate for Pakistan - PNS Shamsheer - was held on Saturday at Shanghai, China, where Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Nauman Bashir was the chief guest.

Speaking on the occasion, Admiral Nauman said “Pak-China friendship is deep rooted, everlasting and is further bolstering day by day. This exemplary friendship has always remained a source of close cooperation in the strategic and other defence fields.”

The Frigate is 2nd ship of the Sword class series and commissioning of this ship has marked yet another pinnacle of this project which demonstrates untiring and total commitment of all those involved in the project.

Admiral Nauman said that warship construction is a very complex activity requiring high precision, quality assurance and safety standards. PNS Shamsheer is a very potent addition to the Pakistan Navy fleet and is to form as mainstay of Pakistan Navy surface assets with her other consorts.

The Admiral appreciated all Chinese Engineers and Technicians for their expert and unending efforts in the success of this mega project. He said that the project is progressing smoothly and all required objectives associated with it are being achieved within stipulated time-frame.

Named as PNS Shamsheer, the ship is second in series of the four F-22P Ships. Work on design and construction of F-22P ships started in year 2005 after signing of a contract between Ministry of Defence Production and China Ship trading Company (CSTC) for construction of three ships in China. One Ship is being constructed at Karachi Shipyard under Transfer of Technology arrangements.

First F-22P ship, PNS Zulfiquar was delivered to Pakistan Navy in August 2009 and is already an integral part of the Pakistan Navy Fleet.

F-22P Frigates are equipped with state of the art weaponry and sensor. They also carry Z9EC Helicopters onboard. Addition of these new ships will not only strengthen the PN Fleet with much needed potential but will also contribute in enhancing country’s shipbuilding capabilities.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 19 Dec 2009 20:50

These were started after the P-28 corvettes but true to style the chinese and pakis go ahead and make and Induct the ship on time even if it is outdated at the time of induction. F-22p is little more than a patrol ship with some weapons. IN will keep demanding changes to the meager number of ships they order and Induct 5-6 in a decade and a half.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 20 Dec 2009 20:52

PAF gets its first air-to-air refuelling aircraft
From ANI

Islamabad, Dec.20: In a significant move which has put the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on the list of some of the world's most advanced air forces, the PAF had inducted the first air-to-air refuelling aircraft into its fleet.

"By virtue of its capability to refuel air defence aircraft midair, the PAF's overall capability in terms of its effectiveness to defend the Pakistani airspace will be significantly enhanced," a statement issued by the PAF said.

Pakistan would be acquiring three more midair refuelling aircrafts by the next year (2010), The Daily Times reports.

http://www.dailyindia.com/show/350517.php

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 20 Dec 2009 20:53

* Commissioning of Pak's F-22P frigate held in China

http://www.ptinews.com/news/432658_Comm ... d-in-China
STAFF WRITER 15:48 HRS IST

Islamabad, Dec 20 (PTI) The second of four F-22P frigates ordered by Pakistan from China has been commissioned at a shipyard in Shanghai, with naval chief Admiral Nauman Bashir saying the warships would be the "mainstay" of his force.

The frigate, named PNS Shamsheer, was commissioned yesterday during a ceremony attended by Bashir and top Pakistani and Chinese officials.

"PNS Shamsheer is a very potent addition to the Pakistan Navy fleet and is to form a mainstay of the navy's surface assets with (the other F-22P frigates)," Bashir said.

The first F-22P frigate, PNS Zulfiquar, was delivered to the Pakistan Navy in August. The two countries signed a contract for four frigates in 2005.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 20 Dec 2009 21:17

What's the final word on U-214s? Are the Pakis still getting them or the Germans showed them the middle finger?

arun · Post by **arun** » 22 Dec 2009 17:15

The Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan seems to be sleeping.

The Guardian is reporting that the US has violated the territorial integrity of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan on at least four occasions and have sent in special forces, uninvited:

US forces mounted secret Pakistan raids in hunt for al-Qaida

Former Nato officer reveals secret night operations in border region which America kept quiet

Declan Walsh in Islamabad
guardian.co.uk, Monday 21 December 2009 21.18 GMT

American special forces have conducted multiple clandestine raids into Pakistan's tribal areas as part of a secret war in the border region where Washington is pressing to expand its drone assassination programme.

A former Nato officer said the incursions, only one of which has been previously reported, occurred between 2003 and 2008, involved helicopter-borne elite soldiers stealing across the border at night, and were never declared to the Pakistani government.

"The Pakistanis were kept entirely in the dark about it. It was one of those things we wouldn't confirm officially with them," said the source, who had detailed knowledge of the operations.

Such operations are a matter of sensitivity in Pakistan. While public opinion has grudgingly tolerated CIA-led drone strikes in the tribal areas, any hint of American "boots on the ground" is greeted with virulent condemnation.

After the only publicly acknowledged special forces raid in September 2008, Pakistan's foreign office condemned it as "a grave provocation" while the military threatened retaliatory action.

The military source said that was the fourth raid of previous years. Two of the others targeted Taliban and al-Qaida "high-value targets" near the border, while the third was to rescue a crashed Predator drone. He said that one of the capture raids succeeded, the other failed and the US sent elite soldiers to the downed Predator because they did not trust Pakistani forces. "People were afraid they would take the parts and reverse- engineer its components," he said..................................

Even the British seem to have managed to send special-forces (SAS) into the Islamic Republic of Pakistan without the Pakistani Army being any the wiser:

The aggressive American approach to Balochistan contrasts with the low-key British tone ……………..But SAS soldiers have been active in the province. The former Nato officer said SAS units were active in Balochistan in 2002, 2003 and possibly beyond, attacking drug traffickers. ...............................

From here:

The Guardian

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 22 Dec 2009 18:37

with non-stop money train service from Saudi Royal family and free military hardware from China, this banana republic is like a migraine. and to double the trouble they are nuclear!!

as per other forums, latest F 22P model now uses AK-176M type main gun instead of 100mm older gun? Are Russians now providing new weapon systems for ships destined for Pakistan or this is another copy of Russian system.

Ananya · Post by **Ananya** » 22 Dec 2009 20:59

Arms sale to Pak justified as India buys from US: Chinese official

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 366909.cms

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 22 Dec 2009 22:47

Recall the phrase "Hot Pursuit" that is now altogether missing from our day to day media jargon. This is Hot Pursuit by US and UK into Pakistan territory.

If only GoI had the wherewithal ...

arun wrote:The Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan seems to be sleeping.

The Guardian is reporting that the US has violated the territorial integrity of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan on at least four occasions and have sent in special forces, uninvited:
......

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 23 Dec 2009 05:48

Ananya wrote:Arms sale to Pak justified as India buys from US: Chinese official
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 366909.cms

The statement came in the midst of efforts by Norman Bashir, chief of Pakistan's naval staff, to persuade Beijing to sell higher capacity ships as compared to the F22P frigates that China begun delivering last June.

Bashir, who met Chinese Defense Minister Liang Guanglie on Friday, said Pakistan was keen on buying bigger ships and more JF-17 fighter planes from China apart from the submarines. Pakistan will buy more weapons including missiles from China in future, he said.

"The F22P frigate is about 3,000 tons, and now we are talking about 4,000-ton ships. These are very big projects and we think the cooperation is important for both countries, especially Pakistan," he said.

these 4000 tonne ships could be the Type 054A frigate each costing around $ 230 million. now the question is how pakis will pay for this or will be in the same as the $ 750 soft loan given by china for payment towards the f22p deal ?

in no angle these transactions look like a business deal (as opposed to our acquisitions) rather they look more like PRC arming its bankrupt proxy with all the arms it can spare and that too for free.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 23 Dec 2009 06:57

Pakis buying some c grade chinese frigate is not a big problem. Its what the pakis get from west and pass on to china that is an issue. I hope IN is keeping an eye out for that.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Dec 2009 07:23

we should congratulate the pakis for setting a record with the F-22P induction ! it is the first major new built surface ship in PN's history !

from an Indian POV I would hope PN goes for as many surface ships as they can, it's the subs that would worry me.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 23 Dec 2009 07:44

As long as its all chinese made fleet IN will not care but PN will try to get some western goodies on the ships. GOI needs to scuttle these efforts.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2009 08:31

unkil will be glad to supply ESSM and Phalanx for these ships, plus EW kits and Harpoons.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 23 Dec 2009 09:09

Harpoons and Phalanx yes but Chinese won't allow it on the ship. ESSM and EW suite the pakis can have wet dreams but they cannot get them. USN will make sure it does not reach pakis.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 23 Dec 2009 21:28

Myanmar opts for Russian MiG-29s over Chinese fighters news.

Russian media has revealed that the military junta in Myanmar may have signed a $570 million contract with Russian arms export monopoly Rosoboronexport for the delivery of MiG-29 fighters for the Myanmar Air Force.

Business daily Vedomosti quoted sources at Rosoboronexport as saying the Russian bid for the supply of MiG-29 (NATO: Fulcrum-D) fighter jets was preferred over China's offer to supply its latest J-10 and FC-1 fighters. Apparently these combat jets were offered by Beijing at "quite favourable terms."

(heh heh, only the Pakis take junk from their Tallel then mountains friends)

Myanmar had earlier bought 12 MiG-29 fighters in 2001, but for Russia this contract is the largest since a failed attempt in 2007 to supply Algeria with 34 MiG-29 fighters.

Myanmar had taken Chinese military aircraft worth some $2 billion in the 1990s, the paper said. These were a mix of Chengdu F-7, Shenyang J-6 and Nanchang Q-5 fighters.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 23 Dec 2009 23:02

Rahul M wrote:we should congratulate the pakis for setting a record with the F-22P induction ! it is the first major new built surface ship in PN's history !

rahulji, they are now going for four more over their first 4 f22Ps and these 4 will be built in pakistan.

from an Indian POV I would hope PN goes for as many surface ships as they can, it's the subs that would worry me.

we shelved the deal with Pakistan-German Ambassador Thomas Matussek

Mr. Matussek took up with the government the impasse in awarding the tender for refuellers for Airbus and has professed interest in promoting the German company HDW for the coming order for submarines. “We hope we will be able to get the submarine deal. It will be easier since we shelved the deal with Pakistan,” he said.

above statement form the germans should put an end to the ongoing wrangle in lala land that german subs are better and that 10% is aiming to derail the "deal" and go for french subs (who were ready to offer his 10% ) etc... all gas in the hullaboo over the HDW subs in pakiland

.

that leaves pakis with the french Marlin subs and the chinki lal's Yuan and Song class subs. i think paki navy will go for the chinese subs - probably Yuan class of their tarrel friends as alluded by Mr Bashir.

vavinash wrote:As long as its all chinese made fleet IN will not care but PN will try to get some western goodies on the ships. GOI needs to scuttle these efforts.

vavinash , why are you underestimating the chinese ship building prowess ??
they are pouring some serious money into their naval research and modernization program so much so that each ship class has 2-3 ships only before they embark on the builds of the next incremental class.
sure they started from a low technological baseline but they achieved a frantic pace of development and aim to sustain it.