Telangana Monitor

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 08 Jan 2010 05:17

^^^
When we are talking about the CT where YSR is killed by Ambanis one needs to link the failed attack on Anil Ambani. His helicptor's fueltank was filled with sand along with the fuel. The person who did that was held but killed the next day and was found on the rail track in Mumbai. There is whole lot behind and I do not believe that YSR's death is by Ambanis. But I will tend to belive if someone else powerful tried to bump both of them.

Regarding KG-Basin CT (little wilder than the CT here):

Why US is so much interested in AP? What is the purpose of Evangelization drives especially in Coastal areas? Is it being experimented as "East Timor" of India. However, I gaurantee that this experiment will miserably fail.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Jan 2010 05:27

Muppalla wrote:
Why US is so much interested in AP? What is the purpose of Evangelization drives especially in Coastal areas? Is it being experimented as "East Timor" of India. However, I gaurantee that this experiment will miserably fail.

One red flag is the natural resource of AP. The diamond and Gold which was discovered in the last 200 years is still a major factor. Deep deposits with new tech can be very lucrative. THe coastal area is shallow in the Bengal sea area and is near large oil/gas deposits.
If you look at the map of India it is the largest region very close to the middle deposit of the Oil/Gas region. The probability of striking it big in the region is very high for natural resource. Think about Avatar - desi version. Missionaries are just one part of the long term plan.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 08 Jan 2010 05:29

Muppalla wrote:^^^
His helicptor's fueltank was filled with sand along with the fuel. The person who did that was held but killed the next day and was found on the rail track in Mumbai.

It was actually the person who detected the sand that was bumped off.

Was that person proved to be involved in the sabotage? I was always wondering how somebody "just happens to" find sand in gearbox.

There used to be some mischief-doers back home who would put sand in bikes (fuel tank was easily accessible on some bikes), just for kicks. How could one detect it before the bike breaks down!!

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 08 Jan 2010 06:46

Dear all,

My sincere thanks to you all to consider my "Rockefellar took interest in YSR" CT, and appreciating the fact that I was the first one to discover/invent it on not just BR, but whole world. As always, BR is always ahead of the curve. (And we are also ahead of the curve on EVM rigging issue - we are the first to find that EVMs were rigged by use of undetectable hardware trojans)

Basically, when a very important person gets assassinated or accidented , we must make a list of those who were most interested financially and would benefit most. The oil is now the biggest business in AP.

Ambani are Rockefellar's kids. Rockefellar needed a base in India and after Union Carbide experience, MNCs realized that it is best to rule India via proxy and not directly. Much of the machinery in Naroda plant in Ahmedabad, which was one Reliance's first (polyster ?) plant in India came from companies owned by Rockefellar. Entire machinery of oil refineries Mukesh owns comes from Rockefellar. Mukesh cannot breath without his permission. Some other BRites may give more details on Rockefellar-Ambani relation.

Sonia too is now MNC puppet. Because all her image depends on newspaper, TV channels. Congress, CPM and 50% of BJP is now India of 1860. The kings were no kings, they were just proxies. Likewise, all these leaders are now just proxies.

7. Sonia proposes to split AP so that Telugu people are divided and will not fight for their resources.
8.After 10 day drama by KCR,immediately announces the formation of Telangana.

It is not Sonia, but MNCs. MNCs decide to split AP, so that size of CM is small, and he can forced with ease. Smaller a State, fewer the number of MLAs, easier it is to get him expelled. Sonia is MNC puppet. I would request you all not give any importance to Sonia, MMS, PC and all other assorted puppets.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 08 Jan 2010 07:12

Pls read this book to make sense of the rabid evang in AP

http://www.amazon.com/Thy-Will-Done-Roc ... Descending

Thy Will Be Done: The Conquest of the Amazon : Nelson Rockefeller and Evangelism in the Age of Oil (Paperback)
This extraordinary saga moves from the Oval Office to the Amazon rain forests to show how Cold War intrigue linked a powerful American family, the U.S. government, and a missionary organization in a forty-year campaign to conquer the Amazon. At the heart of this story are two intensely ambitious men: Nelson Rockefeller, scion of the liberal and immensely wealthy Standard Oil family, and William Cameron Townsend, founder of the ultraconservative Wycliffe Bible Translators. Although leaders of opposing camps, they found common cause in the struggle against fascism and then communism, with the result that hundreds of thousands of Amazonian tribespeople died or were displaced. The systematic campaign of colonization fathered by Rockefeller and Townsend was a chilling foreshadowing of American intervention in the Third World to secure valuable natural resources in the name of democracy. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

A review
America's involvement was based solely on the accumulation of natural resources from the dozens of small republics and countries, all in the name of "spreading Democracy." I soon found this was simply a cover for shameless takeover of legitimately established governments through various means. The mix of establishment agencies and bureaus read like a Who's Who of Americana: The CIA, The US Army, The Christian Church, The Presidency, and, worst of all, nearly ALL of the foremost business and industry leaders that Are the United States business establishment.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 08 Jan 2010 07:21

^^^^ Same drama is visible in all resource rich regions of India. This includes regions which have oil, minerals or water.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 08 Jan 2010 07:23

coming back to Telangana, what does the members think at this juncture? Will Telangana form? What can be predicted from various players.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 08 Jan 2010 07:35

krishnapremi wrote:Yet atleast two- Stan and RMji have expressed their sympathy for telengana people without supporting the demand.I have 'sympathy' for the 'plight' of telengana.

Errr ... I proposed referendum in "former Nizam area" in 2014. IOW, costa upper middle class will get 4 years to fix the corruption, nepotism in AP court, administration, police. This task can be done in 90 days, and so 4 years is enough. In addition, they can implement quota for entire-AP in all class-III and class-IV positions in costa region in private as well as public sector.(*) This will increase job scene for Telies. This too cant take more than 180 days. So essentially, costa upper middle class will have 4 years to do the task which can be done in 90 and 180 days.

If costa upper middle class reduces corruption, nepotism in AP, then given the language culture ties, demand for split will evaporate. If costa upper middle class chooses not to reduce corruption, nepotism in AP, then I dont see how split can be avoided.

(* - one reason why demand for separate Saurashtra evaporated because lakhs of people from Saurashtra got jobs in Surat, Ahmedabad etc. So if lakhs of Telies get jobs in costa, which can be done by regional quota in class-III, IV positions, demand for split in AP will reduce)

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Jan 2010 08:03

Rahul Mehta wrote:
It is not Sonia, but MNCs. MNCs decide to split AP, so that size of CM is small, and he can forced with ease. Smaller a State, fewer the number of MLAs, easier it is to get him expelled. Sonia is MNC puppet. I would request you all not give any importance to Sonia, MMS, PC and all other assorted puppets.

If YSR was still there will the MNC still want to split AP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUATEzvCILM
ysr washing tdp members idle brains by giving Dhirubai ambani's example

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 08 Jan 2010 08:07

^^^ Praising Dhirubhai has nothing to do with deeds of his son.
It's like praising Indira Gandhi has nothing to do with Sonia

Besides, the deal fell through. It was not out of altruism that YSR went against someone

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 08 Jan 2010 08:15

Rahul Mehta wrote: Lift irrigation in India, which is highly energy deficient country, is terrible idea and only reason a neta-babu will support it is for corruption. Lift should be done for drinking water only, but all water connections must be meterized to the lowest level so that wastage reduces. One legislation I propose is EAS (Equal Allowance System) over Waters, in which every person will get have equal stake over waters in the region and he can allocate it to the user he wants and get cash for it. The description of the EAS over Underground Water is http://rahulmehta.com/eas01.htm and draft is at http://rahulmehta.com/eas01.htm#a_0009 . The EAS over Dam Waters is similar. This system will enable the users in AP region to use water, and money will go to people in Telangana, and using 100% market methods. Once that happens, no one in Telangana would insist on lift irrigation. But alas !! In a nation where educated people vehemently oppose discussing legislations and drafts to solve problems, and insist on ideological, historical, psychological discussions only with 10 varied perceptions, such proposals are of no use. . After all, if labeling Telies as dhimmies or blaming everything on Tamil elitemen or cursing AP wealthies can solve problem, why bother with details of legislations !!

vijayk wrote: RMji {no jee pls}

Long ago, we had exchanged a lot of ideas on this topic on legislation/drafts. Let me reiterate. I believe the main problem is not with laws/legislation but legislative process, enforcement and decision making process.

1. No Separation of powers - Legislature and Executive are same for us. There is no checks/balances in our systems between these branches. Judiciary is nominated/appointed by them and hence they are also part of the same chain.

2. Nomination of candidates - No power to people/members of the parties to select a candidate to represent their party. So we see parties are simply selling the tickets to the highest bidder as TRS, Chiranjeevi did. Who knows? May be BJP, TDP and Congress did too. Unless we cut the power of central committees, nothing will change.

3. Referendum, Recall and election of important posts such as Public prosecutors, judges, DGI (Would Rathore molest a girl if he had to be elected every 5 years?)

Once we have these 3 changes, legislation matters. Otherwise, no legislation will help. A lot of people support your ideas.

And only way to bring changes mentioned in 1-2-3 is by campaigning for the DRAFTS of the legislations by which these changes can be brought. In administration all over world, since say 500 AD, written DRAFTS (instructions) are must. For slightest change we want in administration, we first need a DRAFT of Executive Notification or Legislation. Otherwise, talking about that a change is simply running around in circles. And so, I talk about drafts. But general tendency I see in most (not all) educated people is to give an active yawn moment someone talks about drafts of legislations needed to bring the change. Please note vijayk, you are one of the exceptions, you do take interest in drafts, but most dont. And we end up paying huge cost for this active dis-interest in legislation drafts. eg consider Telanga movement. If Telies were getting some cash from waters that costa use for non-drinking purposes, demand for split would have reduced and and demand for this useless lift irrigation would have been zero. If change no. 3 that you mentioned was there, then also demand for split would have been less. So IMO, it is time all educated people shed away active disinterest they show in drafts.

===

1. Once we have these 3 changes, legislation matters.
2. Otherwise, no legislation will help.
3. A lot of people support your ideas.

1. To bring the changes to mentioned (recall, referendum etc) I have listed some DRAFTS (or url to drafts) in neta-babu thread. We can discuss in detail there.

2. Yes. In absence of recall, drafts become useless. But to have recall too, we do need draft.

3. AWMTA

. I would request supporters to become more vocal in neta-babu thread as well as off-BR. I would request all supporters to campaign for RTI2 petition (url is in neta-babu thread) outside BR as well.

debadutta · Post by **debadutta** » 08 Jan 2010 08:33

Muppalla wrote:coming back to Telangana, what does the members think at this juncture? Will Telangana form? What can be predicted from various players.

irrespective of whether Telangana is formed or not is, the bitterness that has been generated due to this episode will remain for quite a while. It's sad how easily and quickly things can go wrong .
I hope that for the sake of our country , politicians learn their lessons from this episode.

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 08 Jan 2010 08:43

debadutta wrote:
Muppalla wrote:coming back to Telangana, what does the members think at this juncture? Will Telangana form? What can be predicted from various players.
irrespective of whether Telangana is formed or not is, the bitterness that has been generated due to this episode will remain for quite a while. It's sad how easily and quickly things can go wrong .
I hope that for the sake of our country , politicians learn their lessons from this episode.

Poison pill.

Reliance and by extension central congress/sonia may have role in YSR death. If Sonia continues to push Telengana, it will lead to people to believe whatever CT I posted before.

This episode brought attention that what was that AP getting from KG basin gas? They want inquiry into Reliance-YSR-KG Basin issue.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 08 Jan 2010 08:52

^^^ Only possible if media talks abt this
So far. All is quiet

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 08 Jan 2010 09:10

ShyamSP wrote: Reliance and by extension central congress/sonia may have role in YSR death. If Sonia continues to push Telengana, it will lead to people to believe whatever CT I posted before.

This episode brought attention that what was that AP getting from KG basin gas? They want inquiry into Reliance-YSR-KG Basin issue.

Initial game of using Telangana fire (thru KCR) to destroy Jagan backfired. I think that rumor/russian blog based agitation is 100% Jagan movement. Jagan is on mission "destroy Rajmata" in Andhra region. The state is getting into vicious cycles of violence. Central INC is trying to assert itself. If you remember, during elections for both Sonia and Rahul there was no crowd at all. YSR did get crowds. The central INC never likes such a situation of being 100% dependent on regional satraps and especially to that extent. I am extremely surprised and could not read the ground here regarding Jagan. I never expected that Jagan can fill YSR shoes so fast.

This YSR-Ambani rumor based bandh/agitation, they are able to do even in Warangal( isn't it ironic that it is the heart of Telangana).

We are seeing Brahmanada Reddy Vs Chenna Reddy and Indira punching Brahmanada Reddy becasue he is only one who challenged Indira those days.

However, they are still proceeding with a committee on Telangana. Telangana is a hedge being played against AP-INC powers.

Added later: I don't believe that YSR is killed by Sonia-Ambani even if it is proved as sabotage.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 08 Jan 2010 09:51

Guys...I must admit...we have whole bunch of CTs that are going way above my competence. My simplest argument for the statehood was based on the smaller/better governable entities add to that with some basic facts and related commentary based on personal experience/observations. I still think it could be win-win for everyone.

You guys may be actually onto something, not denying that (helicopter angle is very promising, Chidu's overactiveness in this is equally interesting - now I know the "madrasi who is close to D Amb" in BG Deshmukh's book), but certainly out of my reach to comment. So, will no more be "active" but am surely around with non CT posts/news capture.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 08 Jan 2010 19:33

On the relationship between TV5 news, subsequent riots and destruction of Reliance properties etc....

IIRC, TV5 was one of the channels branded as Telangana supporters. At one point each region blocked some of the Telugu channels. If we can pull that list, we can see how media is being used for political purposes.

RM-ji, while I enjoy your CT regarding MNCs, I have some doubts on it's (the theory's) application across the board. We need to ensure that the CTs and your fight against corruption doesn't reach paranoid levels.

The same human right agencies, media and MNCs who bad mouth India's corruption, use that method to influence Indian public and policy makers. One example that caused unheard of human and financial loss was Union Carbide accident in Bhopal.

In my Economics class at mass-grad school, our professor told us that the corruption-in-India (he used this example) is society's response to socialist economic policies and red-tapism. He said in this instance the corruption is the grease that softened the red-tapism so Indian society can achieve better efficiency. Perhaps we should remove all unnecessary red-tapism and the corruption will be reduced by 20-30% automatically (at one estimate it might save ~10-15 $B into Indian economy)

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 08 Jan 2010 22:11

Muppalla wrote:coming back to Telangana, what does the members think at this juncture? Will Telangana form? What can be predicted from various players.

sources in GOI say that chances of a state split are most probable.At the same time,Newly formed state of Telangana getting the city of Hyderabad are least probable.
And also say that the chances of KCR becoming the CM of the new state are 50:50

Even his fellow mates behind the screens wanted him to take the role of mentor rather than taking the responsibility of new state.
After all,I myself waiting for the D day with fingers crossed

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jan 2010 22:37

One big obstacle to splitting AP are the UPA allies: Mamta Bannerji, Sharad Pawar, MK, Omar Abdullah. They all fear that there will be fissiparous movements in their hinterlands.

Lets look at MK for starters. If you take a snapsot, TN is very stable. However if you take a video you see a lot of movements going on beneath the picture of stability and this shows up in the Legislative Assy poll results. The small parties are really sub-regional identities and show their poll strength. Same with all the other States: West Bengal, Maharashtra and J&K. Now these allies derive their strength fromthe unified state and not from borken segements. So they are not in favor of the split.

Now the INC is trying to assure these four particularly that AP split is a one off proposition. However once a split in AP occurs, then who knows what movements will be triggered? They could provide opposition and the sub-regional actors to trigger new splits which shake the powerbase of these four atleast.

MB doesnt want to be in Union Cabinet whose actions trigger West Bengal truncation for thats the end of her political career.

Omar Abullah is afraid Jammu and Ladakh will be spun off from his J&K leaving him with Kashmir Valley only. What the heck happened? All his parties aligning with the winning Center comes to naught- NC was both in NDA and UPA!

Pawar doesnt want a smaller Maharasthra while he is still relevant politically.

Rajasthan is also on slow fuse.

And worrisome feature will be how will a Center manage so many states with all the resultant expenses to keep the system afloat: governors, civil services, legislative assys, high courts etc with a barely afloat economy? It will slow down the much vaunted economic growth rate, for which so many sacrifices diplomatically were made?

Sarma · Post by **Sarma** » 08 Jan 2010 22:43

I am somewhat dubious of those who show up with claims of inside sources, that too in the Union cabinet or Union leadership. After all is said and done, T-state may be formed tomorrow, in 2 days, 2 months, 2 years or never. Nobody, including the top leadership, knows what the final outcome will be. And, we have Johnny come lately's showing up with claims of inside sources regarding T and above all Hyderabad.

It is very unlikely that Vidarbha will remain in Maharashtra in the event of the formation of T-state. There are already T-like activities coming to the surface in Vidarbha.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 08 Jan 2010 22:51

jaladipc wrote:After all,I myself waiting for the D day with fingers crossed

Sir,

Personal Choice or Something else...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jan 2010 22:52

Sarma garu, My post is based on my reading of the news. I dont have insider sources. Never had. I am pointing out the whys of these four UPA allies are being informed by INC.

Sarma · Post by **Sarma** » 08 Jan 2010 23:02

ramana garu, never dared questioning you. I was talking of jaladipc.

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 08 Jan 2010 23:09

Sarma wrote:ramana garu, I am somewhat dubious of those who show up with claims of inside sources, that too in the Union cabinet or Union leadership. After all is said and done, T-state may be formed tomorrow, in 2 days, 2 months, 2 years or never. Nobody, including the top leadership, knows what the final outcome will be. And, we have Johnny come lately's showing up with claims of inside sources regarding T and above all Hyderabad.

It is very unlikely that Vidarbha will remain in Maharashtra in the event of the formation of T-state. There are already T-like activities coming to the surface in Vidarbha.

- Some people from Nizam areas in Karnataka came to study TRS to do their bidding in Karnataka
- PMK is already on the streets albeit in very small scale. In Telugu areas in TN, there are small movements to join mothership.

Unlike before now they have to take all non-Telengana into confidence which is not easy task. Given hatred everybody saw on TVs, no one in non-T areas will agree easily. Yanamala already expressed mechanism they will be interested.

Only way Congress can do is forcefully give Telengana and face ugly consequences by pissing off people.

Anyway, without Hyderabad and waters shared well, not all areas will be keen on joining Telengana. What good is Telengana with solely depended on government money and no private investments. (This is what Lagadapati was trying to say when he brought his version with referendum)

ShyamSP · Post by **ShyamSP** » 08 Jan 2010 23:17

Sarma wrote:ramana garu, never dared questioning you. I was talking of jaladipc.

Yetha mesi thodina Telengana radu
pogili pogili edchina Telengana radu

Enjoy the Jaladi's song "Yetha mesi thodina yeru endadu"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfJT7IePcWc

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 08 Jan 2010 23:32

- PMK is already on the streets albeit in very small scale. In Telugu areas in TN, there are small movements to join mothership.

What mothership?

On second thoughts I think the entire TN should merge with AP and TN be given an autonomous status

The only reason PMK would ever want such bifurcation is because it can never imagine to win thorough out TN. If it wants to get the CM post then the best possible means is have a small state for itself where there are lots of Vanniyars. MuKa and JJ are great players of politics; unless there is some benefit to their party or their political chances they will not go for such a split. The long shot is of course MuKa's son's getting 2 states for themselves

Azhagiri in the South and Stalin in the North.

TN by itself is not as large as the other states; the fringe elements talk about past tamil glory and build castles in the air. But the aam admi on the streets nourish no mainstream grievance against other regions of TN.

Personally, I don't care if TN is split or stays one as long as there is no territorial threat to India or an impediment to national integration.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jan 2010 23:36

Actually SwamyG, small states will lead to that very two nightmares you are concerned about. Focussing on ease of running small states shouldnt be the sole critieria.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 08 Jan 2010 23:37

^^^ Small states remind one of the 500 odd states under the East India Company. They sure were easy to control

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 08 Jan 2010 23:39

ShyamSP wrote:
Sarma wrote:ramana garu, never dared questioning you. I was talking of jaladipc.
Yetha mesi thodina Telengana radu
pogili pogili edchina Telengana radu

Enjoy the Jaladi's song "Yetha mesi thodina yeru endadu"
<span><a linkindex="83" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfJT7IePcWc" class="smarterwiki-linkify">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfJT7IePcWc</a></span>

Hats off.......
for some reason my last name happened to be the same of the writer

Ramana ji,
Even if you have the inside reports it will be hard analyzing and joining the puzzles.
My gladness that i have sources from C and T,TDP,B is a thing that sucks.I was just piling my coffee cups instead of coming to the conclusion ,even after all clues and dues.
I rather go astrological and simply term it as a fate of whole AP instead of frisking my peanut brain

Did any one of the medhavis every succeeded in pointing thier fingers towards the culprits lying in the attic?
Nah,neither will the ruling elites nor will the business tycoons looking just after their solo vested interests.
Need a solution to the crisis? get those chichas down from the attic who happened to became the silent spectators after igniting the turned off flames.

Shyam ji,

Ranu ranu antuney chinadoo chindoo ramulori gudikochey chindoo chinnadhii........
dont be too optimistic

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 08 Jan 2010 23:44

Jarita wrote:^^^ Small states remind one of the 500 odd states under the East India Company. They sure were easy to control

With the present day currency values and inflation, citizens of India are spending a ransom of their hard earned money of over 500 crores for just the MP`s every term.
And almost 10 times that was being spent of MLA`s and MLC`s of the current 28 states .
More states-------- more probability of control and development or more wastage of taxpayers money??

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 08 Jan 2010 23:46

jaladipc wrote:
Muppalla wrote:coming back to Telangana, what does the members think at this juncture? Will Telangana form? What can be predicted from various players.
sources in GOI say that chances of a state split are most probable.At the same time,Newly formed state of Telangana getting the city of Hyderabad are least probable.And also say that the chances of KCR becoming the CM of the new state are 50:50

Even his fellow mates behind the screens wanted him to take the role of mentor rather than taking the responsibility of new state.
After all,I myself waiting for the D day with fingers crossed

I have exactly same news and I wanted to confirm myself if there is anyone out there. I agree that all the insider-news are still difficult to analyze. Even the thoughts inside change rapidly based on the moves of various players.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 09 Jan 2010 00:04

In Telugu areas in TN, there are small movements to join mothership.

Which are Telugu areas of TN? Any census proof, either 1951 or 2001 or latest guesstimates till we come to 2011 figures? Even your vaunted "Madras should have come to AP

" can be disproved if you did a cursory census search of 1951 figures which shows ~60% Tam pop in Madras. The fact is Tirupati went to AP with a slightly > 50 vs. slightly < 50 split. Do you know why Pattabhi Sitaramaiya prefered to leave the status of Madras vague when he came back to AP despite chairing a committee report which was read by most people as saying "Telugu speakers of Madras province want a separate state, thus they have no locus standi on Madras"? Do you know why Rajaji opposed Madras to AP based on clear census figures of Tamil speakers in Madras?

By the same logic, Rajaji did nt raise a major ruckus about Tirupati despite losing the HUGE source of revenue that AP now holds in the form of TTD, should I go on this

cos Tam speakers were >47% in Tirupati according to 51 census figures? Do you think Telugu speakers of the then Madras Province were idiots who would have not protested and fought for joining Madras in the newly formed province had there been a sufficient case for > 50% Telugu speakers in Madras? The only historical claim to Madras from AP is the sale of land to the british, but then if we have to go down that path, it will be pretty much brutal as I can go on and on.

Further, I see noone in TN doing a

charade except if people are not let to go visit and have a polite word with THE man who holds Tirupati. Could you also post links to newspaper farticles of these small movements that you have read and others have not? Or is it like a CT from another forum that you posted just in the prev. page? I find your posts on Bellary and the Telugu areas of TN etc. plain amusing. Definitely shows some piskology of who you are and where you come from. Keep on with the task of giving some folk something to rotfl at everyday. But if your goal is to manufacture a "I am hurt cos I come from Rayalaseema and hence I want to see everyone hurt," sorry you dont have my pity or empathy.

Actually SwamyG, small states will lead to that very two nightmares you are concerned about. Focussing on ease of running small states shouldnt be the sole critieria.

Ramana, can I request you to bat with a straight bat? How is a separate Telengana an impediment to national integration? How is it a threat to the territorial integrity of India? I am getting plain confused by this hide-hide-wink-wink that goes on in this thread. If there is an issue, why dont people, including you, articulate it in English so that people like me who want to learn can try to understand what the real issues are. Or is it an attempt to shut off folks who dont necessarily have a stake in AP because they belong to other states? If that is the case, why do people bring in TN and flame others to react? I would have let this thread off on its own if these Madras manade cries stop. And for all I know, it is ShyamSP who is making these cries. Have you had a polite word with him and tell him to stop this lest other folks like me drop in and dump my crapload on this thread. That way, it will be easier for me, easier for AP folks to have their mini-thread where they can do a dance-drama of dhimmi-paki special.

Jarita, ~560 odd princely states of pre-47 India when they wanted to merge into the British provinces wanted to hold their sovereignty in one form or the other. With the abolition of that white elephant called privy purses, we have done what pakistan has failed to do. Throw away the leeches and the zamindars in an institutional form. The only zamindars who now exist are the institutional landowners, big-time agriculturists, mining mafia, nbjprie to borrow RM's jargon. How is going from 28 states to 35 or 40 or even 50 give you deep insights into a direction called "revisiting history?" On the one hand, people want to abolish article 370, but on the other hand, they dont want to give space for sub-regional identities and then wonder when this sore becomes a cancer and people start taking to arms as in Gorkhaland? What kinda strategic thinking is this? An utter shame for a thread that lies in the strategic forum.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 09 Jan 2010 00:33

ramana wrote:Actually SwamyG, small states will lead to that very two nightmares you are concerned about. Focussing on ease of running small states shouldnt be the sole critieria.

Ramana, if you put your thoughts that way I am 400000% behind you. Following the global politics and economy; I align with that school of thought that would consider "Not all actions can be solely based on economy or development". It does not mean human needs should not be considered, just that one still needs to consider national implications foremost.

If you had followed me on the Indian Economy thread, I have put "security" ahead of "efficiency" or "productivity". Running a country is not like running a company; and when it comes to a country unfortunately one has to put some time national security before some of the fundamental human rights and needs. To my knowledge, I am the only person who did not like the Communists being wiped out in the last elections. That party has flaws, but I see them as a countering force in democratic India.

All this churning hopefully will result in the socio-economic development of people all through out AP. I personally don't care if there was one AP or multiple APs under the umbrella of national security. If Telagana people have legit takleefs, I hope this episode will help draw national or regional attention and over the course of years solve their takleefs. If their concerns are not legit, and this is just a political tamasha then the leaders who did this need to be elected out in the next elections.

You must have a good idea about my intentions and postings hence I take the liberty to tell you that you are holding back. You put the country foremost and very nationalistic, so it is with wonder I read some of your posts. Some of the points you make are weak. Maybe you can not express some of your thoughts on BR because of they might not be politically correct. You can mail me, if you want. I am as always curious. My take on your posts.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Jan 2010 00:37

SwamyG wrote: The only reason PMK would ever want such bifurcation is because it can never imagine to win thorough out TN. If it wants to get the CM post then the best possible means is have a small state for itself where there are lots of Vanniyars. MuKa and JJ are great players of politics; unless there is some benefit to their party or their political chances they will not go for such a split. The long shot is of course MuKa's son's getting 2 states for themselves Azhagiri in the South and Stalin in the North.

TN by itself is not as large as the other states; the fringe elements talk about past tamil glory and build castles in the air. But the aam admi on the streets nourish no mainstream grievance against other regions of TN.

Personally, I don't care if TN is split or stays one as long as there is no territorial threat to India or an impediment to national integration.

It is Friday and let me indulge

. I agree with you that TN has least chances of splitting at this time. I also agree that the split-mindset is not there in any Tams across the state. However, PMK is making such requests and statement for a while now. Read my story below

Suddenly Telangana is formed. Largescale movement for Vidharbha is underway. Who can stop PMK from launching a movement? Read PC's statement that it should be nipped in the bud. Yes he knows pretty well if not nipped there will be a reality one day. However, PMK movement is simmering for the last seven years from 2009 onwards.

Past example-
Take example of Laloo Yadav and Bihar split and then extrapolate a potential future situation. Jharkhand movement was going on for several years. Laloo+Paswan+Sharad Yadav were Janta Dal and BJP and INC were national players in 1989. No one except BJP was supporting JHK at that time. Time passed, INC hardly got deposits in few seats later. Laloo's main opponents were Sharad Yadav and BJP. Later inspite of large scale violence and rigging, Laloo actually lost Bihar when BJP was in center. However, to continue in chair he accepted JHK so that he can still be CM of residual Bihar. INC which was opposing split and eventhough a non-entity in Bihar supported JHK. That is how JHK was forced on Bihar. If you talk to Bihar folks there was no support to JHK. JHK was a movement by just the Tribals of Jharkhand and they are about 40-50%

Smaller states are never genuine (inspite of a mother load of spinned stats presented). They are just being created based on political situations in those states. They are only created to chechmate regional parties by two national parties (BJP and INC).

Current dependence of DMK on INC -
Coming to TN -
DMK is now married to INC. If it did not go with INC, AIADMK may win and by depending on INC it is not the master. For example, the analytical in DMK also realized inspite of its secualr credentials, in actuality the EJized Christians are always voting for INC. It is also the reason why DMK unofficially created an extra-extended layer of red-tape in giving licences to build new churches.

Imagine MDMK gaining strenght and Vijay Kanth starts getting substantial seats as opposed to just vote share. Gondors caste party gaining good in their few seats. A case study for splintered verdict ( I am not wishing) in TN. INC also still has a 10% voteshare. Stalin is CM after MK's death. He desperately needs to be CM to weather all problems including some sex scandals. His brothers and step-brothers/sisters are all playing games. Now comes PMK with 30 seats as a key player. 30 is a big number in a 50 seat vanniyar area. Stalin by agreeing a split to some 60 seat portion of TN can put himself to power comfortably. (just take numbers as a scenario and I am not having knowledge of real PMK's influence)

Take Bihar's scenario and try to put on TN. DMK+MDMK+PMK falls short of majority. AIDMK+Vijaykanth+gondors falls short of majority. INC with 20 seats becomes key player. BJP suddenly gets 5 seats in Chennai. Put Stalin in Laloo's shoe and INC wants to split the state and it has all the videos of Stalin's masterpieces. BJP supports idiotically though it has no gain.

I hope I am wrong and you can give the correct picture taking the situation that I presented.
Added later - I do not know if the new caste party is Gondors and I may have spelled it wrongly.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 09 Jan 2010 01:00

Except people who vote for PMK, bulk of TN laugh at the father Ramdoss. They call his party as the "mara vetty" {maram -> tree, vetty -> a person who fells trees (slag)}. PMK, and vanniar, influence is just in the North TN. The party was notorious for cutting trees down and using them as road-blocks.

The only soft spot I have is for his son - Anbumani. I thought he did good as a Health Minister. He put his foot down and did not hesitate to clash with SRK - it might be gimmicks. But as a health minister, he did try to do some curtailing of smoking. In the days when ministers come and go, he seem to have at least attempted something. Smoking is dangerous. Disclaimer: I quit smoking few years ago

Well like you agree, if there is no split-mindset why create it? Shouldn't it be nipped in the bud? Especially if it is purely political machinations?

TN in some aspects is like AP when it comes to cine-artists and politicians. As long as JJ and MuKa live, Vijaykanth will be just like Chiru. He might be called (or calls himself) as "black MGR" but that will not fetch him much. There will never be another NTR or MGR. When it comes to State politics, INC or BJP are not the masters. It is either DMK or AIADMK.

TN is not USA, these scandals and such will not matter. John Edwards career seems to have been destroyed. Such scandals will be dealt in a very Indian way.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Jan 2010 01:02

SwamyG wrote: Well like you agree, if there is no split-mindset why create it? Shouldn't it be nipped in the bud? Especially if it is purely political machinations?

It should be nipped but you may fail to nip if there are movements everywhere.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 09 Jan 2010 01:03

Stan_Savljevic wrote: ...

Ramana, can I request you to bat with a straight bat? How is a separate Telengana an impediment to national integration? How is it a threat to the territorial integrity of India? I am getting plain confused by this hide-hide-wink-wink that goes on in this thread. If there is an issue, why dont people, including you, articulate it in English so that people like me who want to learn can try to understand what the real issues are.
...

Ramana garu can speak for himself but I'll put down some concerns I have about the nature of the Telangana movement (as opposed to the question of a separate Telangana state itself, on which one can be objectively neutral). It is different from the splitting of Uttarakhand or Jharkhand or Chattisgarh in that the Telangana movement has a strong flavor of reversion to a zero-sum feudal economy and mindset that existed prior to the ouster of the Nizam. The feudal mindset manifested itself in 3 ways: 1. Nizam's desire to become an independent Pakistan-like state (note that Pakistan was, and still remains, mostly remains feudal-militaristic / aristocratic) 2. Common Telugu people's alienation from entrepreneurial spirit and drive for excellence and growth (relatively speaking, coast was better off in this regard) 3. Communists' exploitation of the feudal conditions to wage warfare and establish a stronghold.

Echo of element 1 above is in TRS's constant refrain about the greatness of Nizam and how he built "everything", something anyone with any knowledge will laugh at. Echo of element 2 is in appealing to whatever levels of fear of Telugu entrepeneurship remain in the psyche of Telangana Telugu people themselves (if you are alienated from something positive and life-affirming, due to no fault of your own, you would still find yourself hostile to that positive thing as a psychological defense mechanism). It is important here to note that I don't think this fear is very strong in today's Telangana,, but there is enough and it is vocal enough to push authorities into a knee-jerk concession. This is where the psychology of surrender and appeasement that recent governments have become known for, comes in.

Item 3 is not much discussed, but it is a key factor; Chidambaram is worried about it, but he is not smart enough to understand the anatomy of it. The maoists want Hyderabad / Telangana as a liberated zone in which they are the de facto rulers. That will happen, because Telangana movement is essentially a movement of political, psychological and social withdrawal by the Telugu people of the region, which leaves the maoists as the only group that has any confidence or strategic ability.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 09 Jan 2010 01:04

Muppalla wrote:
SwamyG wrote: Well like you agree, if there is no split-mindset why create it? Shouldn't it be nipped in the bud? Especially if it is purely political machinations?
It should be nipped but you may fail to nip if there are movements everywhere.

Added later - Regarding scandals, I just made up for fun. I mean a desperate situation that Laloo had to cling on even at the cost of split.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 09 Jan 2010 01:10

Arre bhai, here are some lessons on TN.
1) TN will be the last SI state BJP will ever win a seat in provided Kanyakumari or Tuticorin or Ramanathapuram goes > 50% Christian population (not immediate) and there is a sudden polarization of Hindu-Christian votes that we know will happen. If BJP has to win a seat anywhere else in the state, they should start embracing Tamil and not do their chaddi dance in Hindi.
2) Vanniyar = merchant/labor class. Vanniyars are not only there in TN, but also AP and Kar. If you look at Kempe Gowda's origins, there is a claim to even him. PMK is only a new avatar of vanniyar representation. In the early 50s, when DK split, a party by the name Tamilnadu Toilers Party and Commonweal participated in the elections. Periyar and his DK which had a policy of not contesting elections chose to support Kamaraj-led INC (since Kamaraj was a non-brahmin and he shunted out the brahmin poster-boy Rajaji), the TTP&CW while Annadurai-led DMK and Communists joined hands. What you see today as PMK is new wine in old bottle.
3) Vanniyars are like 25% of TN population with major numbers in North TN, west TN in the Kongunaadu belt. But the Gounders of Kongunaadu have a KMP to represent them and dont fall for PMK's and Ramadoss' antics. Why, even in North TN, a good fraction of Vanniyars side with DMK and DMDK of Vijayakanth? So all this rosey scenarios of PMK winning 30/50 seats will make Ramadoss super-happy, but not going to happen unless he can polarize vanniyar opinion by an act of insult to the community.
4) TN is like BD in the sense that people have really no choices between two devils that are DMK and ADMK. You can see maaaajar swings between this extreme and that since 1991 elections, if you care to take a look. 232-1 in 1991 in favor of ADMK-alliance vs DMK, 2-230 in 1996 after amma's corruption and Rajnikanth's blessing, 200-x in 2001 after TN people forgave amma and saw the lack of trickle-down economics, x-~140 after they lost hope on both sides in 2006. DMDK can split votes but he is like Chiranjeevi in AP, a lot of gas and less akshun on the ground.
5) DMK is an opportunist outfit as is ADMK. One day they will sing with INC provided they can get hold of the pie at the center and the very next day if BJP wins majority, trust me both sides will fall head over heels after the secularism of BJP. So much for marriage. It is all convenience.
6) MDMK is Vai ko's, a splinter of DMK and DMDK is Vijayakanth's. I knew you outside folks will get confused at the Dravidian rain in TN, so welcome.
7) INC's consistent vote share is as ephemeral as Communists becoming PM of India. In TN, INC is no longer a party of respectability. Rajaji did it in and left off for Swatantra. Kamaraj resuscitated it and left off the center. Bhaktavatsalam nailed it and Annadurai usurped it. Done, history, kaput. There can no longer be a INC in TN unless they develop tall leaders who can speak good, fluent Tamil, not snobs like PC and vazha-vazha-kozha-kozha like GK Moopanar.
8 ) Now Stalin vs Azhagiri vs Kanimozhi vs the Marans is a real fun soap opera which can go either way. My bet is on the lady and the snide Marans. Stalin is still the same fool who picked a fight with THE Walter Davaram and got his teeth smashed. Azahagiri is a street-smart guy with only Tamil knowledge. When the elephants fight, note what looks like the mouse. The day wont be far off when Priyanka makes a pact with Kanimozhi. After all, this thread has seen many unintelligent CTs, why cant I make an intelligent guess?

So now, continue with hypotheses and games.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 09 Jan 2010 01:12

Muppalla wrote:
SwamyG wrote: Well like you agree, if there is no split-mindset why create it? Shouldn't it be nipped in the bud? Especially if it is purely political machinations?
It should be nipped but you may fail to nip if there are movements everywhere.

If that happens, I just would have to buy one more house in the new state