Sure, that is why it would be important to get to a level of stealth that denies first look on RADAR to deny first shot on BVR. IMHO, PAK-FA is optimized only for that much RADAR stealth. If the F-22 can pick up the PAK-FA on RADAR at 25 nm and PAK-FA can do this against the F-22 only at 10nm then this is an issue. But if at 30 - 35 nm the IRST becomes the primary sensor then this disadvantage is negated.SaiK wrote:well, it depends. if you can find him before he finds you, then we can be safe that RCS may not be that much of an important. But, the enemy RCS is so low that you have no chance of finding before you are fired!
RCS is important for BVR.
PAK-FA and FGFA Thread
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
Still problem is not solved. Not until you have missiles that are can be guided using IRST...adarshp wrote: But if at 30 - 35 nm the IRST becomes the primary sensor then this disadvantage is negated.
The issue is F 22 detects Pak Fa at 25 Nm, it is in position to shoot. But pak fa until it has got IRST guided missile will not be able to shoot even though it may track it using IRST...
But can IR guided missiles do the job? (R 73/74 - with range of 30/40 Kms).. May be gurus can shed some light?
If this is the case, i wonder what will be the payload configuration of 5th Gen A/c. I mean short range missiles will be more compared to long/medium ranged missiles...
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
IRST sensors have been improving in range only recently, and all work in that area is not done yet. The reason that today's IR guided missiles are short ranged is because of range limitations of todays technology. If you see longer range IRST sensors develop, you will see corresponding missiles developed as well. There is nothing which stops or inhibits this change.nrshah wrote:Still problem is not solved. Not until you have missiles that are can be guided using IRST...adarshp wrote: But if at 30 - 35 nm the IRST becomes the primary sensor then this disadvantage is negated.
The issue is F 22 detects Pak Fa at 25 Nm, it is in position to shoot. But pak fa until it has got IRST guided missile will not be able to shoot even though it may track it using IRST...
But can IR guided missiles do the job? (R 73/74 - with range of 30/40 Kms).. May be gurus can shed some light?
If this is the case, i wonder what will be the payload configuration of 5th Gen A/c. I mean short range missiles will be more compared to long/medium ranged missiles...
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
Interested in F-22 + F-35 + more.Isnt Russia + India interested in f-35 type aircraft?
And over time I feel it is possible.
We have to realize that this stealth to some extent is pure math and the Russians pioneered that aspect of it (no one in USSR believed the guy who did it, but that is a diff matter) - the point is that RU has top notch techies. However, they lack a) the unending funds (that the US seems to have) - certainly state funding and b) due to the lack of funding in the 90s they have also certainly fallen way behind in terms of areas like metallurgy, etc, suppliers (no funds to keep them afloat), proper supply chains (that keep cost low), etc. (The vertical stuff of F-22 is FROM Russian consultants!!!!!!!!)
I feel what the PAK-FA represents is a pure baseline technology demonstrator. We can expect some changes to this machine with an engine that produces 2 more Ts of thrust (that is about 13% more thrust!!!!) things could change - inlet, wings ................... why not?
The FGFA with two seats will need a diff wing - change. Perhaps even in shape?
JMTs.
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
Russia - MiG LMFSIsnt Russia + India interested in f-35 type aircraft?
India - MCA
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
A speculation rendering of FGFA:
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
Finally the long awaited write up from APA is released
Assessing the Sukhoi PAK-FA
Sukhoi PAK-FA - Russia's Strategic ‘Game Changer’
Assessing the Sukhoi PAK-FA
Sukhoi PAK-FA - Russia's Strategic ‘Game Changer’
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
Why are we so sure that India has no role to play in Pak-Fa so far, given the enthu that the Russians are showing in terms of talking about Indian partners, it does not appear that they are playing nice to the next level of funding alone.
What if GoI already paid 25% of the money spent by Su on this?
Where would that figure show up (which official document)? Could it be kept hidden? Under scores of returned funds etc?
I think there has to be more than meets the eye -- remember Indians talking warmly about Russians at Arihant launch, we did not think it was for future work alone, why not here too?
What if GoI already paid 25% of the money spent by Su on this?
Where would that figure show up (which official document)? Could it be kept hidden? Under scores of returned funds etc?
I think there has to be more than meets the eye -- remember Indians talking warmly about Russians at Arihant launch, we did not think it was for future work alone, why not here too?
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
TOI states that when Putin visits India this March three deals will be sealed
FGFA/PAK-FA Co-development
MTA Transport Aircraft
24 Mig-29K
What is this F-22C ?
FGFA/PAK-FA Co-development
MTA Transport Aircraft
24 Mig-29K
What is this F-22C ?
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
yes, the Indo-Russian intergovernmental agreement allows both sides not to disclose specifics of military relations.Where would that figure show up (which official document)? Could it be kept hidden?
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
From the above, India's role:Austin wrote:Finally the long awaited write up from APA is released Assessing the Sukhoi PAK-FA
India was engaged early in the PAK-FA development effort, but Russian sources suggest that negotiations on the work share between HAL and Sukhoi/KnAAPO were protracted. Open sources suggest that India is responsible for 25% of the development of the PAK-FA, primarily in software and systems integration, areas where India has recent experience via the Su-30MKI program. India is to also contribute in composite materials, with claims the PAK-FA structure is, by total aircraft weight, rather than just the airframe structural weight, some 25% titanium alloys, and 20% composites. Indian sources suggest that both single and dual seat variants will be built for India.
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
Given the "Indian"-Sukhoi relationship, which goes back to the early 90s, there is a very, very good chance that the PAK-FA has some "Indian" "input" - indirectly.
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
Russia, India to sign 5th-generation fighter deal in March
"We expect a contract on the first stage of design, specifically the development of a technical design concept, to be signed in late February-early March," Alexander Fomin, first deputy head of the Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation, said.
He added that Russia and India were currently "at an active phase of negotiations" on manufacturing fifth-generation fighters.
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
Well right now the PAK-FA do not seem to have any Indian input as the contract for the first stage of design will be signed in March and most likely this design will be a twin seater FGFA.
But in years ahead we will see significant input to FGFA/PAK-FA from Indian side,Composites usage in fighter aircraft seem to be an area where the Indians are fairly advanced compared to russia , EW/ESM is another where we have leapt ahead
But in years ahead we will see significant input to FGFA/PAK-FA from Indian side,Composites usage in fighter aircraft seem to be an area where the Indians are fairly advanced compared to russia , EW/ESM is another where we have leapt ahead
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
I want our participation in weapons integration as we have quite a challenge here perhaps to integrate many western missiles and our own along with other variants.
DRDO can also participate in using home grown super computing power here.
DRDO can also participate in using home grown super computing power here.
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
Currently its not know what softwares and amount of composites the the first prototype uses, considering the fact that lots of things have been omitted on the prototype which were not needed I suspect it uses the older Su-35 avionics and no composites. So there is no other area I know of in which India can help.
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
Are these APA guys reliable/knowledgeable?Austin wrote:Finally the long awaited write up from APA is released
Assessing the Sukhoi PAK-FA
Sukhoi PAK-FA - Russia's Strategic ‘Game Changer’
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
^^
Not always in terms of analysis. Cry wolf too early IMHO. References and arguments are useful to arrive at your own conclusions.
Not always in terms of analysis. Cry wolf too early IMHO. References and arguments are useful to arrive at your own conclusions.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
In terms of technical comments, I'd think they are well qualified. Of course, you have to ignore the political angle.Carl_T wrote:Are these APA guys reliable/knowledgeable?Austin wrote:Finally the long awaited write up from APA is released
Assessing the Sukhoi PAK-FA
Sukhoi PAK-FA - Russia's Strategic ‘Game Changer’
CM.
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
Yeah I was curious because everything on that website leads to: "buy more F-22s!"
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
THIRD FLIGHT OF PAK-FA
more on this from Key-pubs!The third test flight of a new fifth-generation fighter was on Monday, February 15, at the aerodrome of Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association. This is the Interfax news agency quoted a source in the
military-industrial complex.
Source: newspaper "Sight"
Author: Maria Ivanova
18:25 Published: 15/02/2010, 18:25
Fifth-generation fighter once again rose into the air
In Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association airfield, which is part of holding "Dry", the third flew in the latest fifth-generation fighter. Prospective complex tactical aviation safety program implemented in full and without comment. After a few more tests in the Far East, the aircraft will go to Moscow, and fighting application will work out in the Volga region.
In the Far East in KnAAPO Dzemgi continuing flight testing Russia's new fighter aircraft - a promising front-line aviation complex aircraft (PAK FA) T-50.
"On Saturday in Komsomolsk-on-Amur hosted the third flight of the fighter. The flight program fully implemented. All units and aircraft systems worked without any problems", - told a source in the military-industrial complex.
He clarified that the first flight of the fighter was held two weeks ago, on January 29, in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. And he and the second flight lasted about an hour. At the second test flight of the fighter has already gone in the "new look" - it was painted in the colors of the Air Force Russia - gray and white camouflage broken."From the looks of this car in the air even more swift and terrible," - noted then source in the military-industrial complex.
In the future PAK FA is waiting for a few more test flight in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, then the plane moves to Zhukovsky near Moscow in the Gromov Flight Research Institute, which will have the bulk of flight tests.
Tests fighter for combat application also will be held at the State flight test center of the Defense Ministry in Akhtubinsk (Astrakhan region).
Recall, February 11, Chief of General Staff of the Armed Forces of Russia Nikolay Makarov said that Russia's fifth generation fighter aircraft will have "almost human intelligence," and the price will be cheaper than the American counterpart. Also, according to him, the fighter "has a number of other advantages.
Newspaper, which sought to find out how arranged Russia's newest fighter aircraft, has already stated that Russia's new aircraft for at least the first stage will be equipped with radar N050 (improved version of the Radar Irbis-E Su-35) of millimeter waves. Besides the main airborne radar aircraft is equipped with an additional radar centimeter. Application of additional radars, spaced from both the primary position and in the frequency range, will not only increase the noise immunity and combat survivability design, but also significantly reduce the visibility of technology neutralizes the enemy planes.
According to some foreign experts, the PAK FA will be equipped with the new optical-location station OLS-50M, which would gain an advantage in detecting stealth air targets and can become the primary sensor in a dogfight with the F-22 and F-35.
Among the requirements for flight performance indicates supersonic speed in cruising flight, with the besforsazhnom mode engines.
T-50 also has the maneuverability at subsonic speeds and increased maneuverability at supersonic.This affected the aerodynamics of the aircraft, equipped with very complex with lots of wing thrust surfaces, allowing to maintain control of supercritical regimes.
As experts, characterized PAK FA will be multi-functionality (ability to solve problems defeat both air and ground targets in all weather and time of day), maneuverability, low visibility in the optical, infrared and radio wavelengths, supersonic cruising flight mode, the ability to fly and land, using land runways 300-400 meters.
In general, evaluating the test results, honored test pilot Sergei Bogdan, piloted the plane, said: "During the flight we had a primary assessment of controllability of the aircraft, engine and major systems, the aircraft made a full-time cleaning and landing gear. It is working well in all stages of our intended flight program. They are easily and comfortably manage.
The general director of company "Sukhoi" Mikhail Pogosyan in circulated a press statement said that "the plans of the company" Sukhoi "and is further developing the program PAK FA, on which we will work with Indian partners."
Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, who described the first flight of the fighter as "a nice event," promised that "in 2013 should do the first batch (PAK FA) in the Armed Forces, and in 2015 already begin serial purchases.
In turn, the head of the Defense Ministry Anatoly Serdyukov has expressed hope that all the time to supply the first batch of aircraft will be met.
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
Some snippets.
http://rt.com/prime-time/2010-02-11/alm ... e-jet.html
"Almost human intelligence" capability ,touted in the report.
http://rt.com/prime-time/2010-02-11/alm ... e-jet.html
"Almost human intelligence" capability ,touted in the report.
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Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
Cross Post from Key Pubs!
Added later: According to latest updates, it has been DISMANTELED for TRANSPORTATION to Moscow!!!Forgive me if this was already written. T-50-1 "disassembled" for improvements, flights will not be until April.
info from nemetc - worker from KnAAPO.
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
All is not well if we believe forceindia
....................
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please go to page 6 and zoom to readRussia is now insisting that it would sign the fifth generation aircraft contract in stages and not as one whole.the dubious intent behind this is obvious as work progresses on project,Russians will hike their demand
Last edited by Rahul M on 17 Feb 2010 14:58, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: please do not post force mag content.
Reason: please do not post force mag content.
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
^^^ How can tht be, if it is joint dev then we share work load and expenses and that will be agreed and signed upfront, even if a hike is there in the prj cost won't that be shared ? I believe it is JV and not ToT.......
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
Thanks for posting the link
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
JSF/MCA?from the article: "If whispers are true India has other options for fifth gen aircraft"
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
Russia has no option but to sell the planes to India.
I don't think there will be any arm twisting. India has significant bargaining power in this case.
The various contracting stages may be due to some accounting and other finance related stuff.
Who else is interested/capable of buying a large number of 5th gen aircraft except India? Gorshkov was a special case due to several factors.
The only thing stopping the beauty from being part of IAF is the infinite wisdom of our babus and politicians.
I don't think there will be any arm twisting. India has significant bargaining power in this case.
The various contracting stages may be due to some accounting and other finance related stuff.
Who else is interested/capable of buying a large number of 5th gen aircraft except India? Gorshkov was a special case due to several factors.
The only thing stopping the beauty from being part of IAF is the infinite wisdom of our babus and politicians.
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
PS is whining for not getting his share of lifafa from Rosbornexport , this piece of news should have given the right message to RB and the lifafa should soon reach his desk
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
"Almost human intelligence"
Hope that does not equate to Paki intelligence
Hope that does not equate to Paki intelligence
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
paki != humans
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
PAK-FA-K version for IN?
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
The Latest AWST says that India will buy at least 250 of the same.However,western analysts speculate that achieving the 2015-2017 deadline for service induction might pose a challenge with regard to engines and radar devlopment.
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
Any estimates of cost out so far?
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
^^
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/01/ ... -next.html
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/01/ ... -next.html
The cost of developing the FGFA, which would be shared between both countries, will be US $8-10 billion (Rs 37,000-45,000 crores). Over and above that, say IAF and MoD sources, each FGFA will cost Rs 400-500 crores.
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
^^^ Comparing the cost of MKI where each costs 150 crores , the cost of each FGFA @ 400 - 500 crores is phenomenal
Philip the GaA AESA radar should be ready by 2015 ,that should be available to retrofit MKI as well , but new 5th gen engine will have challenges to be met and may take more time.
Not sure if they would like to get GaN AESA ready by 2017 for production run of PAK-FA ,they are also working on GaN T/R module for AESA based on some literature i came across some time back.
Philip the GaA AESA radar should be ready by 2015 ,that should be available to retrofit MKI as well , but new 5th gen engine will have challenges to be met and may take more time.
Not sure if they would like to get GaN AESA ready by 2017 for production run of PAK-FA ,they are also working on GaN T/R module for AESA based on some literature i came across some time back.
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
Austinji, Rs. 400 crores comes to around $80 million right? That is still less than the Rafale and Typhoon. It is extremely cheap for a 5th gen fighter. I am confused as to why you call the cost phenomenal.
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
"ready" as in? "Operational"?GaA AESA radar should be ready by 2015
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
I dont think price of MKI is only 150 crores. At today rate that is just 32mn USD. If actually it is 32Mn USD, MMRCA does not make any sense considering the higher operational cost of heavy fighter is well compensated by significantly lower acquisition cost (compared the same with cost of MMRCA the lowest of which is 50 MN USD for Grip/F16/Mig 35 and for Rafale/F 18/Euro it is well over 75% and Price of NLCA is same - 900 cores infused by navy for 6 NLCA) Thus initial acquisition cost is only 60%/40% of MMRCA.Austin wrote:^^^ Comparing the cost of MKI where each costs 150 crores , the cost of each FGFA @ 400 - 500 crores is phenomenal
Ofcourse the savings in logistic, common weapons, and cost of inducting a new fighter - Training and infrastructure are additional
Re: PAK-FA Thread - First flight
No I am just wondering if a single 5th gen figher costs 400 - 500 Cr then its really very expensive bird compare that to how much we spend on vital needs of social sector.nachiket wrote:Austinji, Rs. 400 crores comes to around $80 million right? That is still less than the Rafale and Typhoon. It is extremely cheap for a 5th gen fighter. I am confused as to why you call the cost phenomenal.
It amazes me for a country with so much of poverty that one can sees daily on street we can actually afford a 500 Cr for single fighter.
NRao GaN module is something they are researching into right now , I am just wondering if by 2018 they can build a test prototype of AESA based on GaN T/R module.