Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

[negi]

The Arjun's improvement has been an "ongoing process" since the 80s with no end in sight.

So has been the case with Abrams,Leo and the T-72 family .

I'll call it when I see it, till then its "in development claims" will remain on paper only!

Well in that case you can contend yourself with LEO toy model of M1Abrams or even Al-Khalid (if they make it).

The basic criteria set for the tank itself was outdated and its primary stated objective of being an "indigenous tank" yet unmet.

Abrams uses the RM AG gun (now license produced by GD) , BAE systems won the contract for major subsystems for the TUSK upgrade , T-90 uses the same French sight as Arjun , SoKo's K-X series uses the same gun as that of Abrams and allegedly simialr auto loader technology as the Leclerc . The Lizard's Type-99 is powered by MTU engines (or worst its Chicom RE counterpart) and same gun as the Russian T-72 family.

Also, even with those systems developed in India, there is no third party or combat use of the Arjun to even discern a vague estimate as how good its fire control system or sensor suite really is.

Well the targets in the ARMY firing range have a story to tell , there was a report of the APFSDS round from Arjun's main gun penetrating the T-72 from front to rear completely .

Bottom line is that even today, it is an unproven tank that India's own military is hesitant to accept. There can be no worse statement as to its quality for an objective point of view. That is all I will say about it.

Unproven ? So is the Leclerc and SoKo's K-X or even the newest Leo2A6 series (if people consider it an entirely new tank) .

[RayC]

The Arjun's improvement has been an "ongoing process" since the 80s with no end in sight.

So has been the case with Abrams,Leo and the T-72 family .

I'll call it when I see it, till then its "in development claims" will remain on paper only!

Well in that case you can contend yourself with LEO toy model of M1Abrams or even Al-Khalid (if they make it).

The basic criteria set for the tank itself was outdated and its primary stated objective of being an "indigenous tank" yet unmet.

Abrams uses the RM AG gun (now license produced by GD) , BAE systems won the contract for major subsystems for the TUSK upgrade , T-90 uses the same French sight as Arjun , SoKo's K-X series uses the same gun as that of Abrams and allegedly simialr auto loader technology as the Leclerc . The Lizard's Type-99 is powered by MTU engines (or worst its Chicom RE counterpart) and same gun as the Russian T-72 family.

Also, even with those systems developed in India, there is no third party or combat use of the Arjun to even discern a vague estimate as how good its fire control system or sensor suite really is.

Well the targets in the ARMY firing range have a story to tell , there was a report of the APFSDS round from Arjun's main gun penetrating the T-72 from front to rear completely .

Bottom line is that even today, it is an unproven tank that India's own military is hesitant to accept. There can be no worse statement as to its quality for an objective point of view. That is all I will say about it.

Unproven ? So is the Leclerc and SoKo's K-X or even the newest Leo2A6 series (if people consider it an entirely new tank) .

Really? Link?

And what was the protection on the T 72?

I thought we were talking about T 90.

And what part of the tank it hit? All that matters.

Why do you think they have top attack missiles?

[Rahul M]

ray sir, clearly you haven't read my post carefully.

my argument was NOT that the arjun or any other MBT is invulnerable(*) to modern anti-tank weapons but their crew survive even in cases when the tank is a write-off. not so in the case of T-90 and T-72.


please read the very links you have posted and understand this point.

(*) that said, the arjun is indeed much better protected as a fighting machine (not just for the crew) than the T-72/90. please do read my last post.

I recently had a discussion (albeit short) with an ex COAS who is also an Armoured Corps officer. I rather believe him than a paid journalist.

as I requested you, please go by the facts and not just opinion, even if it be from an ex-COAS. just to clarify, I'm not saying these depending on what ajai shukla says. the facts are all out there, irrespective of what he does or does not say.

there can be many reasons(many of them well-meaning) why someone says something, does not automatically make the statement gospel truth. decide for yourself sir.

[negi]

^ RayC I will need to dig for it and fwiw iirc was posted by JCage (as reliable as one can get as far as Indian MBT scene is concerned) ; moreover we don't need it look for it for if you read Rahul's post and see the protection levels offered by ERA less T-80U series against RPG-29 one can only imagine the fate of such a tank against a APFSDS round of the size Arjun fires .

Here look at the specs for the 120mm APFSDS round for Arjun .

http://www.drdo.org/pub/techfocus/feb02/arjun.htm

[RayC]

ray sir, clearly you haven't read my post carefully.

my argument was NOT that the arjun or any other MBT is invulnerable(*) to modern anti-tank weapons but their crew survive even in cases when the tank is a write-off. not so in the case of T-90 and T-72.


please read the very links you have posted and understand this point.

(*) that said, the arjun is indeed much better protected as a fighting machine (not just for the crew) than the T-72/90. please do read my last post.

I recently had a discussion (albeit short) with an ex COAS who is also an Armoured Corps officer. I rather believe him than a paid journalist.

as I requested you, please go by the facts and not just opinion, even if it be from an ex-COAS. just to clarify, I'm not saying these depending on what ajai shukla says. the facts are all out there, irrespective of what he does or does not say.

there can be many reasons(many of them well-meaning) why someone says something, does not automatically make the statement gospel truth. decide for yourself sir.

So Ajai Shukla is the last word on this forum?

What makes him superior to an ex COAS?

[Rahul M]

brando, I though of giving a detailed reply, but WTH, you will not read it anyway and I'm tired of trying to show light to people who have their mind made up.............<SNIP>

How dare you question the wisdom of Herr Generaloberst Guderian.....don't you know that Herr General is the final authority on all things with tracks and guns? Such temerity from you......you need to enrol in the General Staff College where you'll be taught the great works on theories and tatics by Herr General on Mechanized Warfare. Only then can you comment on such issues..till then, go hide in your cave with your goat.....

mea culpa rohit !


@ brando, quit trolling please. you are just posting inane opinions without bothering to back them up with data. not acceptable.

[RayC]

^ RayC I will need to dig for it and fwiw iirc was posted by JCage (as reliable as one can get as far as Indian MBT scene is concerned) ; moreover we don't need it look for it for if you read Rahul's post and see the protection levels offered by ERA less T-80U series against RPG-29 one can only imagine the fate of such a tank against a APFSDS round of the size Arjun fires .

Here look at the specs for the 120mm APFSDS round for Arjun .

http://www.drdo.org/pub/techfocus/feb02/arjun.htm

Please understand that you cannot add armour all around.

Then the tank will not move.

It is good training that keep you away from harm's way and get the other guy. Just as in Assal Uttar!

Rahul M,

You are entitled to think that an ex COAS is a fool, but with my experience and service, I cannot think so. I rather go by him than an ex Army Officer turned journalist.

Why is he (Ajai) not in the Army. He looks young and does not appear that he retired because of age. But then I could be wrong!

[Rahul M]

So Ajai Shukla is the last word on this forum?

What makes him superior to an ex COAS?

are you having problem understanding simple english ?

I said

I'm not saying these depending on what ajai shukla says. the facts are all out there, irrespective of what he does or does not say.

he may be superior or inferior to an ex-COAS (I don't believe rank makes someone automatically 'superior'. simpkin is not a general is he ? )but facts are superior to any damn body. satyameva jayate anyone ?

[RayC]

So Ajai Shukla is the last word on this forum?

What makes him superior to an ex COAS?

are you having problem understanding simple english ?

I said

I'm not saying these depending on what ajai shukla says. the facts are all out there, irrespective of what he does or does not say.

he may be superior or inferior to an ex-COAS (I don't believe rank makes someone automatically 'superior'. simpkin is not a general is he ? )but facts are superior to any damn body. satyameva jayate anyone ?

Yes, I do understand English.

I am but a one pointer in Cambridge. But thanks that you tell me that I don't know English.

Facts?

what facts?

Facts of the media?

You have seen an Arjun or a T 90?

Checked the Sukhna case. I don't know the truth of the case, but I sure know that the Army Rule was not applied and hence bad in law! But you, BRF and all went hell for leather without a clue acting knowledgeable, based on the media! Of course you know better law than what is the statute, right? Clever, clever you! Keep winking. Does not impress!

As far as Simpkins is concerned, let me educate you:

Simpkin was commissioned into the Royal Tank Regiment in 1941. He cut short a degree course at the University of Cambridge to do so. He served in North Africa where he won the Military Cross and was taken prisoner. Simpkin was awarded an Order of the British Empire (OBE) for his part in the new design of the Chieftain tank and retired from the army in 1971. He continued to write, lecture and consult about armor doctrine, tactics and Soviet thinking, living at first in Norfolk, England where he was brought up and then in Elgin, Scotland. This was the birth place of his wife, Barbara, descended from the Grant family who owned Glen Grant Whiskey before it was sold to Seagrams in the 1970's.

Simpkin became a Russian language specialist and military theorist.

Race to the Swift is a comprehensive military theory work in the NATO context; it contains Simpkin's ideas and observations on the nature of warfare, technology and manoeuvre.

Deep Battle is a work about Red Army general and theorist Mikhail Tukhachevsky. It is part biography, part theory, and part translation of Tukhachevsky's works, focusing on Tukhachevsky's concepts of Deep Battle Theory. The centerpiece is the translation of the 1936 Red Army operations manual PU-36 Deep Operation, which Tukhachevsky is believed to have masterminded.

Liddle Hart was a mere Captain and he is taken to be an authority.

So, for a civilian like you, rank matters, but it is no reflection of the intelligence of a person.

Since you have used syntax that is not too parliamentary let me give it back.

Don't spew crap!

I am still polite compared to your BS.

I would be immense surprised if Ajai Shukla knows more than a Chief!

In fact the Chief's office should be in your and Ajai Shukla's hands.

[negi]

RayC we are digressing from the topic lets keep it plain and simple.

Rahul's post above has a link which clearly gives an idea of the kind of protection the T family (without ERA) offers against the older RU APFSDS "3BM42" while Arjun's armor was not defeated even by the new Israeli APFSDS .

Now do you consider above as a valid data point or a case of wrong reporting by media (and it is not even some boolean chart which might get mis printed ) ? If above is not reliable then what credibility are we to assign the media reports of Arjun not being accepted by the IA on grounds of not meeting the GSQR ?

The WHY part is what the whole discussion is about .

[Sanku]

rohitvats; try using google YOURSELF for a change, and meanwhile spare me the "chankian analysis" of reports and their deep parsing and quibbling with words -- for one, I posted the two reports by CAG and the Parliamentary committee; not YOU.

Secondly I have probably posted that umpteen number of times on this forum; yet people keep coming back and making fact free statements.

Finally dont play the game of twisting my words -- I have never claimed that Arjun should not be inducted, in fact I have ALWAYS claimed that IT IS BEING INDUCTED, and the delay we see is reflection on the status of our Mil-Ind complex as it goes through its due paces.

[Rahul M]

So, for a civilian like you, rank matters, but it is no reflection of the intelligence of a person.

err, only in the last post you were arguing that rank is a reflection of intelligence and final arbiter of a person's command of a subject !
and I was arguing against it.

Since you have used syntax that is not too parliamentary let me give it back.

where ? if you find a need to use slang against me please do so without these imagined incidents from me.

[Sanku]

If above is not reliable then what credibility are we to assign the media reports of Arjun not being accepted by the IA on grounds of not meeting the GSQR ?

Those are total junk reports of yellow media level sensationalization of the usal failure and learning curve. The media needs hype -- the reality is boring, in one line it can be summed up as "MoD has no vision and expects a tank (or anything else) of Abrams variety at Jonga prices (1974 prices) -- The IA and other forces lurch from one crises to next in procurement and can get ANY equipment sanctioned and purchased only after a crises situation emerges"

[Rahul M]

Those are total junk reports of yellow media level sensationalization of the usal failure and learning curve.

sanku ji, what are "those" ? do you even realize what reports negi is talking of before going off on a tangent ?

[RayC]

RayC we are digressing from the topic lets keep it plain and simple.

Rahul's post above has a link which clearly gives an idea of the kind of protection the T family (without ERA) offers against the older RU APFSDS "3BM42" while Arjun's armor was not defeated even by the new Israeli APFSDS .

Now do you consider above as a valid data point or a case of wrong reporting by media (and it is not even some boolean chart which might get mis printed ) ? If above is not reliable then what credibility are we to assign the media reports of Arjun not being accepted by the IA on grounds of not meeting the GSQR ?

The WHY part is what the whole discussion is about .

I am not digressing.

I am merely indicating where the 'big talk' lies.

The issue is, if the Arjun comes upto standard as per the current threat perception, it must be accepted.

How long will it take to have the adequate numbers available is another question to handle.

What do we do in the interim.

We cannot legislate the time when a war will break out.

So, what is the best we can have given our budget?

Every tank is a death trap depend on the adversary's training and shells that he is using.

[RayC]

So, for a civilian like you, rank matters, but it is no reflection of the intelligence of a person.

err, only in the last post you were arguing that rank is a reflection of intelligence and final arbiter of a person's command of a subject !
and I was arguing against it.

Since there are a plethora of post against what I have said, do point it put where I said so.

Since you have used syntax that is not too parliamentary let me give it back.

where ? if you find a need to use slang against me please do so without these imagined incidents from me.

What slang, my friend?

After all, you claim that you know more English than I.

[RayC]

Rahul M,

No pictures of Abrams damaged?

They were not damaged?

It is easy to pick up western propaganda and rather difficult to get something from the other side, right?

Fortunately, I am not a Russian or a Western backer.

I want what is best for India!

Your posts were impressive, but a trifle low on reality of the battlefield. I am not aware of your experience on a battlefield and so please forgive me if I am not right in my surmise!

[rohitvats]

rohitvats; try using google YOURSELF for a change, and meanwhile spare me the "chankian analysis" of reports and their deep parsing and quibbling with words -- for one, I posted the two reports by CAG and the Parliamentary committee; not YOU.

Secondly I have probably posted that umpteen number of times on this forum; yet people keep coming back and making fact free statements.

Finally dont play the game of twisting my words -- I have never claimed that Arjun should not be inducted, in fact I have ALWAYS claimed that IT IS BEING INDUCTED, and the delay we see is reflection on the status of our Mil-Ind complex as it goes through its due paces.

Point One: Your posting the CAG and Parliamentary Committee Reports proves what? That you've been arguing your statements based on facts? You went and picked up those reports after you were asked to put your money where your mouth is. All this while you were arguing based on "I know better attitude". So don't allude any greatness and superior attitude. You should have done that when you made your first post.

Point Two: As for me, I have been giving supporting arguments from the very first by me on the topic. So, don;t drag me down into your category. I first like to read up, back up my claim and then post. Which is quite unlike yourself. and as for the CAG and Parliamentary Committee report, I did not have reason to either look for it or hide it. It is you needed to find it and use it to back up your claims. And which you did after talking hot air for quite some while.

Point Three: It is you who changed your argument from "Defects in Arjun=No induction" to "Shortcomings in Mil-Ind. Complex". And this was done after you're asked to back up your claim about the defects in Arjun leading to slow induction. Do you want me to point out the series of posts?

Point Four: I'm not doing any chankian analysis of the reports. It is you who has selectively quoted from the report which attests to your POV without bothering to read the whole of it. Because if you had, you wan;t have made the stupid claim of IA hand holding the program and inducting Arjun even when it was not ready. So when someone points contents in the same report which are contrary to your claims, it becomes chankian analysis? How dishonest can you get.

It is you who has been playing with words and not me. I've consistently stuck to my position.

How about refuting what I've written (and de-bunked your arguments) for a change with couple of data points rather than shouting from the roof top about your plethora of knowledge?

[Sanku]

Those are total junk reports of yellow media level sensationalization of the usal failure and learning curve.

sanku ji, what are "those" ? do you even realize what reports negi is talking of before going off on a tangent ?

Fair question, by those I mean the surfeit of reports in 2007 time frame post AUCRT in ToI, HT and many other main stream media, predicting the immediate demise of Arjun as IA was not interested. (Please dont ask me to post links please -- not that I cant, I can, but I am tired of doing that over and over again it gets boring)

If Negi meant other reports, perhaps he would be kind enough to point out which exact report he is talking of so that the generic comment is not likely to be misunderstood and then painted as running of on tangent

In case you can clarify his generic remarks on what you think he means by his remark on "those reports" maybe we can discuss that specific report.

--------------

rohitvats; wake me up after you make a clear cut point with factual reports backing you up -- right now it appears that your chief interest in picking up a fight with me.

Meanwhile, as Rahul M could probably attest too, I have been posting these same reports and same statements on this very same thread for a long time.

Just to reiterate my point is simple -- IA has a requirement of Arjun, DRDO is fulfilling that requirement, they are both doing their jobs under their individual constraints and the progress report is publicly visible through many Govt mouthpieces.

If things are slow -- it is because short of systematic improvements -- this is as good as it gets.

As simple as that.

[Rahul M]

Rahul M,

No pictures of Abrams damaged?

They were not damaged?

It is easy to pick up western propaganda and rather difficult to get something from the other side, right?

Fortunately, I am not a Russian or a Western backer.

I want what is best for India!

why should I bother to post abrams pictures ? IA is not inducting abrams anytime soon.
those who are interested can look up the pics in google. that said, let's not forget that the crew survived in all those cases, that is the point I'm making.

Fortunately, I am not a Russian or a Western backer.

fortunately, neither am I. that helps me understand from a neutral POV that the russian tank philosophy is weak.
_________________

Fair question, by those I mean the surfeit of reports in 2007 time frame post AUCRT in ToI, HT and many other main stream media, predicting the immediate demise of Arjun as IA was not interested. (Please dont ask me to post links please -- not that I cant, I can, but I am tired of doing that over and over again it gets boring)

it's your problem that you didn't bother to read the post carefully and gave a completely irrelevant rant in reply.
what negi meant is amply clear from his post and the preceding ones.

unfortunately you are employing the same tactics with rohit, you are making ludicrous claims backed by selective quotes and a dismissal of all sources that are contrary to your opinion with some personal attack thrown in.

sanku ji, I say this as a friend and well-wisher, but this is not expected from a BRFite of your standing. please go through your own posts, you will understand. if you think you can't change your posting style, I suggest you take a break from this thread for the time being.

[rohitvats]

rohitvats; wake me up after you make a clear cut point with factual reports backing you up -- right now it appears that your chief interest in picking up a fight with me.

Meanwhile, as Rahul M could probably attest too, I have been posting these same reports and same statements on this very same thread for a long time.

Just to reiterate my point is simple -- IA has a requirement of Arjun, DRDO is fulfilling that requirement, they are both doing their jobs under their individual constraints and the progress report is publicly visible through many Govt mouthpieces.

If things are slow -- it is because short of systematic improvements -- this is as good as it gets.

As simple as that.

I've no interest in pickig up fight with you...it is what you write and pass of as "final word" that I have porblem with.....and ofcourse, the shameless desire to increase my post count.....

As for my POV, it is that Arjun is ready for induction in IA (has been for quite some time now) and it is IA which is dithering in its committment (at least till now).......and making the tank jump through all the hooplas...it has no more shortcomings as T-90 has had in the service from word go......

The back and data points for the debate we've had (on historical context of tank development) are right there from the beginning of the debate. You've chosen to ignore them willfully....that is something I cannot help.

[negi]

RayC

Fwiw there was a report of British Chally-2 being hit by a RPG-29 and its frontal armour was penetrated .

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... quiet.html

Question is what happens when the RPG-29 hits a T-90 ?

Here

http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/TRIALS/19991020.html
.

Now as someone used to say draw any imaginary line through the T series's turret and check if it does not pass through those darn rounds exposed inside the autoloader and in the crew compartment unlike the dedicated armored bustles in the Arjun with blow off panels.

[RayC]

Rahul M,

No pictures of Abrams damaged?

They were not damaged?

It is easy to pick up western propaganda and rather difficult to get something from the other side, right?

Fortunately, I am not a Russian or a Western backer.

I want what is best for India!

why should I bother to post abrams pictures ? IA is not inducting abrams anytime soon.

Because you can't.

It is good to push western propaganda and not realise the reality.

We are inducting T 90s and Arjuns.

They are best bang for the bucks.

You should bother to post picture of Abrams on the burn if you are fair. But then, are you?

If you think they (T 90) are lousy, then do buy some 'state of the art' for the IA or if you don't have the cash, cool off ! It is ridiculous to feel that the GOI and the IA are fools and you are the greatest!!

The day Ajai Shukla would know more of the COAS, I would be indeed most surprised, since Ajai Shukla is a paid employee (a puppet on a string) unlike the ex COAS.

[RayC]

Death on wheels.

Which isn't, Rahul M?

If you are in uniform. it is death on everything.

That is the price to pay if you want your country to be free!

[rohitvats]

RayC

Fwiw there was a report of British Chally-2 being hit by a RPG-29 and its frontal armour was penetrated .

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... quiet.html

Question is what happens when the RPG-29 hits a T-90 ?

Here

http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/TRIALS/19991020.html
.

Now as someone used to say draw any imaginary line through the T series's turret and check if it does not pass through those darn rounds exposed inside the autoloader and in the crew compartment unlike the dedicated armored bustles in the Arjun with blow off panels.

negi, a small correction. The frontal armor of Chally was not penetrated. This is what the report says:

In the August attack, which occurred during an operation to arrest a leading insurgent in the town of al-Amarah, in southern Iraq, the Challenger was damaged when a Russian-made rocket-propelled grenade, known as an RPG-29, defeated the ERA and penetrated the driver's cabin.

But the pics from fofanov's site clearly show that Frontal Armor on T-XX tanks has been penetrated. Just imagine what a DU or other APFSDS round will do, ERA not withstanding.

[RayC]

In the August attack, which occurred during an operation to arrest a leading insurgent in the town of al-Amarah, in southern Iraq, the Challenger was damaged when a Russian-made rocket-propelled grenade, known as an RPG-29, defeated the ERA and penetrated the driver's cabin.

Entered from where?

Where is the picture?

[negi]

Rohit my bad I thought frontal armor was a generic term loosely used interchangeably for both 'Glacis' and the 'Front Turret plate' .

[Rahul M]

Death on wheels.

Which isn't, Rahul M?

If you are in uniform. it is death on everything.

That is the price to pay if you want your country to be free!

so why even bother with bullet-proof jackets and AMC if saving lives is of no import !
why bother with tanks even ? jeeps with RCL should suffice ?

doesn't make much sense.

If you think they (T 90) are lousy, then do buy some 'state of the art' for the IA or if you don't have the cash, cool off !

tell this to the IA.
we have enough cash and a ready "state-of-the-art" product available. it's called the arjun.

It is ridiculous to feel that the GOI and the IA are fools and you are the greatest!!

and ray sir, please stop making these irrelevant and ridiculous assertions and ad-hominem attacks. I'll delete any such personal attacks from next time.

[negi]

[RayC]

irrelevant post deleted. kindly stick to the topic and quit attacking people with ridiculous allegations. if you want to pick a fight, please find someone else and not on BR.

[jamwal]

T-90 uses the tank gun and 1G46 gunner sights from the T-80U, a new engine, and thermal sights. Protective measures include Kontakt-5 ERA, laser warning receivers, the EMT-7 electromagnetic pulse (EMP) creator for the destruction of magnetic mines[5] and the Shtora infrared ATGM jamming system. It is designed and built by Uralvagonzavod, in Nizhny Tagil, Russia.

Indian T90s lack some of the features mentioned here. The specs you quoted are of Russian T90s
India is buying export/customised version of T90, that is T90S. (Bhishma)

Apart from paying Russia for the tank we are paying other countries for a variety of equipment that were kept out of actual order to keep the cost in papers down in order justify the purchase.

The tanks are fitted with the Shtora self-protection system and Catherine thermal imagers from Thales of France and Peleng of Belarus.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/t90

If IA is so confident of T90 capabities, then why this purchase of foreign (non-Russian) protection systems worth $270 million?

Israel Military Industries (IMI) promoted its IRON FIST active protection system (APS) for India's T-90 MBT, which is a possible option for the Indian Army’s request to retrofit all 987 T-90 MBTs, such as protection systems. The Army HQ issued requests for proposals in April last year to IMI as well as Rafael, BAE Systems, Raytheon, Rosoboronexport, Saab, and Germany’s IBD Deisenroth Engineering. A contract would involve some 1500 systems and is expected to be worth $270 million.
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/247/

Anti-Arjun lobby says that Arjun can't be manufactured in required numbers in a given amount of time. Can you please lookup how many T90s have been produced in India till now ? When did Russians completed the ToT of T90 so as to enable Indians to manufacture the tank themselves ? Is such dependence on Russians justified over indigenous Arjun ?

"The Russian side agreed to deliver the specification of T-90 gun barrels by December 2008," Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh told the Rajya Sabha in a written reply to question on the indigenous production of 1,000 T-90s from members.
Admitting that the non-delivery of T-90 MBT gun barrel specification was one of the major obstacles faced by India in indigenous production of 1,000 of these tanks, Singh said the issue of transfer of technology (ToT) was discussed between the two sides during the Indo-Russian Working Group on ship building, aviation and land system in August this year.
The minister said the ToT documents for most of the parts were already with India and some technical data regarding armour plates along with gun barrel manufacturing was awaited.
He said India had already developed armoured plates indigenously and the DRDO has come up with the 'Kanchan' explosive reactive armoured plates for tanks.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 221783.htm

Gun barrel tech not transferred till Dec 2008
World class armour replaced by Indian armour for Arjun

Despite years of effort, India still cannot get its French thermal imaging systems to operate reliably on its T-90 tanks. Most of the thermal imagers on the T-90s are down at any one time. The problem is heat, and the 100 degree (Fahrenheit) heat is unavoidable because it's a desert area where they have to be stationed. The Indians paid $2.6 million for each tank (half the price of the U.S. M-1). Some 20 percent of the cost is for the thermal sight, similar to the one that makes the U.S. M-1 tank so effective on the battlefield. Unfortunately, tests of the T-90 revealed that the thermal sight system could not handle the heat of Indian summers. Much of the border between India and Pakistan is desert, and most of India's armored units are stationed there. The problem is that, while the T-90 has air conditioning (something new in Russian tanks), it cannot handle the 100+ degree heat in tropical India, and there is no room inside the tank to install a more powerful cooling system. The American M-1 air conditioning has been able to handle extreme heat.
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/article ... 232423.asp

Compare this farce to Sukhoi 30 MKI project of IAF for openness, planning, success and co-existence of both foreign Su30MKI built to Indian requirements and indigenous LCA Tejas.
Ironically in both projects almost the same countries are involved for sourcing of components..Israel, France, Russia and India. What seems to be the problem with tank project here ?

[RayC]

irrelevant one-liner deleted.

[vina]

Guys.. Guys.. Cool it. Take a deep breath and relax.. RayC, RahulM and Sanku and others.

The decision making in the Arjun should ideally have been based on purely objective considerations . But unfortunately, thanks to a history of bad blood between the Army and DRDO on the Arjun, the Natashas who managed to sneak in the T-90 and everything , it has become so muddled , that it has broken down into lobbies and interest groups and the entire scene is full of FUD and mud slinging and general chaos.

So basically this has now got politicized , so it will get solved by politics and not merit. That is the sad part of it.

The fight is NOT for inducting Arjun or the T-90. Both have been inducted. The ongoing fight and jockeying is for the NEXT lot of upcoming orders and that is where the jockeying has begun. The Natashas/Russians want to sell more T-90s, while the DRDO claims that problems are licked, the tanks have served for 2 years, been exercised and now open it up and let us compete on the merit of the respective systems .. That is where the yellow matter has hit the fan.

[manjgu]

a) Those critical of T 90 should explain what other options ( which we did not excercise) did we have at the time of its induction ?

b) Is the T 90 in its present avtaar/version not upto scratch against the opposition it is going to meet?

c) is their a fair degree of commonality of T 90 with T 72 in terms of maintenance, parts etc?? was this also one of the reasons to introduce T 90 vs some other western option?

[Sanku]

As for my POV, it is that Arjun is ready for induction in IA (has been for quite some time now) and it is IA which is dithering in its committment (at least till now).......and making the tank jump through all the hooplas...it has no more shortcomings as T-90 has had in the service from word go.......

Thank you now that you have clearly laid out your pov, could you please outline some specific things you would have liked IA to do better (I have for example made my suggestions on how to do better, however in my case they are mostly at the level of MoD, in terms of project management, mission mode approaches and technology development programs)

We can then examine them to see what the IA can do better -- and also try and be specific, in the sense of both action and the timeliness.

[Sanku]

Guys.. Guys.. Cool it. Take a deep breath and relax.. RayC, RahulM and Sanku and others.

The fight is NOT for inducting Arjun or the T-90. Both have been inducted. The ongoing fight and jockeying is for the NEXT lot of upcoming orders and that is where the jockeying has begun. The Natashas/Russians want to sell more T-90s, while the DRDO claims that problems are licked, the tanks have served for 2 years, been exercised and now open it up and let us compete on the merit of the respective systems .. That is where the yellow matter has hit the fan.

Vina; two things
1) I completely am with you largely in the post above -- if I may so, I have been trying to say the same thing in different way with slightly different emphasis on different issues.
2) Trust me, I am not emotionally aggrieved here, truly, though I may have pissed of others

Meanwhile to make RayC happy

[jamwal]

Damaged Abrams

By Armour piercing round
http://data.primeportal.net/m1_iraqp/m1 ... cf0093.jpg

http://data.primeportal.net/m1_iraqp/m1 ... cf0095.jpg

By IED ( a big one)
http://data.primeportal.net/m1_iraqp/m1 ... c04661.jpg

http://data.primeportal.net/m1_iraqp/m1 ... c04665.jpg

More pictures
http://picasaweb.google.com/andy.adyns/ ... edAndWoops#

[Rahul M]

vina ji, I'm always cool !

a) Those critical of T 90 should explain what other options ( which we did not excercise) did we have at the time of its induction ? {the first lot of 310 was bought at a time when TSPA inducted the T-80. this acquisition can be somewhat justified as the arjun was not ready according to IA's satisfaction and the T-90 is but a T-72 upgrade.
mind it, any other army would have already inducted the arjun by that time and would have no need for a foreign tank. IA would also have inducted the arjun by that time if it was a foreign tank. but that's too much to expect from IA mech forces.
the main gripe is with the subsequent agreements in 2006 and 2007 for another 1300 odd T-90's when the arjun was quite clearly available. }

b) Is the T 90 in its present avtaar/version not upto scratch against the opposition it is going to meet? {it's a mistake to consider only tank vs tank. even then we keep hearing reports that pakis claim to use DU rounds which would make life very problematic for the T-90, given that it is vulnerable to even the decades old 3BM42 mango !!

as to ATGMs and other anti-tank weapons, the less said of the T-90 the better}

c) is their a fair degree of commonality of T 90 with T 72 in terms of maintenance, parts etc?? was this also one of the reasons to introduce T 90 vs some other western option?{perhaps. but all these are secondary considerations, the primary one is, is the tank good enough for its job ? as a stop-gap that is OK but while choosing a tank that will serve you for the next 30 years it is folly of the largest proportions !
when you order a suit would you chief consideration be if it will fit in the mouldy old suitcase you have or whether it fits you ? }

[rohitvats]

As for my POV, it is that Arjun is ready for induction in IA (has been for quite some time now) and it is IA which is dithering in its committment (at least till now).......and making the tank jump through all the hooplas...it has no more shortcomings as T-90 has had in the service from word go.......

Thank you now that you have clearly laid out your pov, could you please outline some specific things you would have liked IA to do better (I have for example made my suggestions on how to do better, however in my case they are mostly at the level of MoD, in terms of project management, mission mode approaches and technology development programs)

We can then examine them to see what the IA can do better -- and also try and be specific, in the sense of both action and the timeliness.

The only action the IA needed to take was to induct the tank and then go about giving feedback on incremental improvements rather wanting a super-duper tank from word go. And not trying to find faults where none existed.

[RayC]

Rahul M,

Saw the damaged tanks in Jamwal's post?

How did those happen?

Delete them and be happy that the USA is the best!

How is it that the over vilgilant Admins and Mods are allowing you to suppress the truth?