MRCA News and Discussion

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 03 Mar 2010 05:15

PV Naik in the EF Sim - http://www.flickr.com/photos/agamemnon/4401040239/

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 03 Mar 2010 09:00

Gripen NG gets Selex IRST..

Saab has selected the Skyward-G Infrared Search & Track (IRST) system to equip the Gripen Next Generation (NG) fighter. IRST performs air-to-air functions similar to a 'passive radar', thus contributing to reduced electromagnetic signature while denying the target early warning about offensive actions being taken ('lock on signal'). According to Selex Galileo, the Skyward-G can operate in highly cluttered environments to track single and multiple targets, and can also operate in slaved acquisition mode. The selection of the SKYWARD-G system follows an earlier agreement signed in March 2009 between Saab and SELEX Galileo, for the development of the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar Raven ES-05 for Gripen NG.

http://defense-update.com/newscast/chan ... _news.html

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 04 Mar 2010 07:00

Rayetheon provides advanced targeting pods for the SH ahead of schedule...

- Raytheon Company (NYSE: RTN) reached a milestone in January with delivery of its 414th Advanced Targeting Forward Looking Infrared pod to the U.S. Navy six months ahead of schedule.

Operating at full production and eligible for foreign military sales, ATFLIR is the Navy's program of record for the F/A-18 Super Hornet. Raytheon also manufactures the pod for the air forces of Australia and Switzerland. The first fully qualified ATFLIR pod was deployed in 2002. Eight years later, it remains the only targeting pod certified for carrier operations.

ATFLIR provides superior long-range target tracking and recognition, pinpoint targeting, high lethality, and enhanced aircraft survivability. Proved in combat with more than 500,000 operational flight hours, ATFLIR recognizes and tracks targets at altitudes and ranges substantially greater than other systems can.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 91417.html

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 04 Mar 2010 07:26

The Euro-fighter will NOT be chosen as far as I can reckon simply because its just too costly for the Indian Air Force to have in great numbers and it is produced all over the place. With the way the Americans have made in-roads into the Indian political imagination, and the public, one can't really preclude the possibility of Americans getting the order. Also, the US Navy is interested in buying as many as 124 F18E/F and Gs should Boeing make a reasonable offer. Such a contract could help Boeing negotiate the price down further for the MRCA order ( or the USN for that matter! ) .

Pentagon may buy 124 new Super Hornets

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 04 Mar 2010 07:54

Brando wrote:The Euro-fighter will NOT be chosen as far as I can reckon simply because its just too costly

The only possibility for an EF win, would be if the EJ200 is selected on LCA. It might work in favour of EF (apart from its industrial package). We'd know by the end of this month, when the winner for the LCA engine is announced. If the EJ200 looses out then it would be an uphill battle for the EF I think. But until then I wouldn't discount the EF. (A GE win would help get the US birds a big foot in the door)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Mar 2010 08:28

EADS already provides test systems for GTRE. But, if it is all political decision, then GE fits very well as well. GE-rolls royce will actually power the JSF-2 with their new f136., and should India be looking at that later.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 04 Mar 2010 08:43

Brando wrote:The Euro-fighter will NOT be chosen as far as I can reckon simply because its just too costly for the Indian Air Force to have in great numbers and it is produced all over the place. With the way the Americans have made in-roads into the Indian political imagination, and the public, one can't really preclude the possibility of Americans getting the order. Also, the US Navy is interested in buying as many as 124 F18E/F and Gs should Boeing make a reasonable offer. Such a contract could help Boeing negotiate the price down further for the MRCA order ( or the USN for that matter! ) .

Pentagon may buy 124 new Super Hornets

from the link...

In 2006, the Chicago-based company proffered the Navy a multiyear package of 170 Super Hornets for $49.9 million a piece, an offer that officially expired last April.

WELL there you have it! The price that one can expect the F18-E/F to be offered to the IAF with 126 and possibly 60 more would definitely be MORE than ~ 50 mil a piece!!!!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Mar 2010 09:21

CA,

That price is life-cycle cost?

I doubt it is.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Mar 2010 09:32

ok, let us get this clear.

The $10-12billion for 126 a/c at what type of cost?

Any insight into the details of what all comes with it?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 04 Mar 2010 09:32

Craig Alpert wrote:MORE than ~ 50 mil a piece!!!!

58$mil a piece MINUS life cycle costs... gosh! SH's Brazilian package cost 7.6$bil for 36 pieces.. Incredible!

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 04 Mar 2010 09:46

SaiK wrote:The $10-12billion for 126 a/c at what type of cost? Any insight into the details of what all comes with it?

I think its 10.4 $bil inclusive of life cycle costs.. I may be wrong though, just going by this report published couple of years ago including some details of the RFP..

The RFP announcement estimated the program at 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), at a cost of Rs. 42,000 crores (about $10.24 billion as of the RFP date, or about $81.3 million per fighter). The 211-page document includes clauses for initial purchase, transfer of technology, licensed production, and life-time maintenance support for the aircraft. Under the terms of purchase, the first 18 aircraft will come in a ‘fly away’ condition, while the remaining 108 will be manufactured under Transfer of Technology. Some reports add an option for an additional 64 aircraft on the same terms, bringing the total to 190 aircraft

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/mir ... ges-01989/

Also, a DOD press release in 2007..

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=30522

The tender was to be released initially in March 07 but got delayed and released in June. The reason for the delay was identified to be- fine tuning what might constitute life-cycle costs, offset requirements & TOT clauses. Apparently, the vendors are required to provide a life time support and performance based warranty for the aircraft. MoD officials have confirmed that great care has been taken to ensure that only determinable factors, which do not lend themselves to any subjectivity, are included in the commercial selection model. And that life cycle costs have been accounted for.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 04 Mar 2010 10:27

The $10-12billion for 126 a/c at what type of cost?

Any insight into the details of what all comes with it?

It comes with a low balled price you can be sure of that.

The real price you can only tabulate after 5 years. Then you get the full costs including all hidden fees.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Mar 2010 12:31

Further to what Kartik has said about Russian missiles being the std. for the upgraded Flankers,the latest VAYU has a feature on Russian missiles and the IAF's poss. tactics in eliminating Paki Swedish AEW aircraft using long range Russian AAMs on the MKI,etc.,which might be developed in another JV like the Brahmos.There seems to be already in place a clear doctrine for the future IAF aircraft as to our AAMs and operational tactics.With more than 60% of even our future IAF inventory being aircraft of Russian origin (PAK-FAs,Flankers,Bisons,Fulcrums) plus naval MIG-29Ks,the staple missile inventory for these aircraft will definitely be of Russian origin.A mix of western and Russian missiles are more likely to be found on western origin aircraft and indigenous birds like the LCA.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 04 Mar 2010 12:39

I guess you are referring to the K-100 Novator, which has been displayed many times but one hardly hears much about it's testing. Anyways , this would be off-topic so I'd leave it for another thread.

There is little or no chance of K-100 being integrated with MRCA winner though , espcially a western fighter.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Mar 2010 13:28

Apparently its back into development,with India as a key customer.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Mar 2010 14:02

^^^^ Can any one scan the Vayu article on Novtar AAM-L and put it up ?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 05 Mar 2010 03:51

US arms supply to Pak shocks India

...As a part of US assistance to counter al-Qaida and Taliban, Pentagon reportedly has admitted supplying laser-guided ammunition, 12 surveillance drones and 18 latest model F-16 fighters. Islamabad will also receive equipment capable of converting 1,000 traditional munitions into “smart bombs” that can strike the targets with precision.
...

US gifts hi-tech arms to pakistan, and buying US arms just cross-subsidizes the US aid machine. Better to maintain a distance from them, at least make sure that they don't get billions of dollars from us so that they can give free aid to pakistan

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 05 Mar 2010 03:57

Yep, otherwise we'll end up in an "tense equilibrium" with both sides using US arms but with no real change in the situation on the ground, while still being vehicles to US interests. Like Israel and the Arabs.

Maybe it's time to buy stock in Lockheed Martin.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 05 Mar 2010 04:40

putnanja wrote:US arms supply to Pak shocks India

...As a part of US assistance to counter al-Qaida and Taliban, Pentagon reportedly has admitted supplying laser-guided ammunition, 12 surveillance drones and 18 latest model F-16 fighters. Islamabad will also receive equipment capable of converting 1,000 traditional munitions into “smart bombs” that can strike the targets with precision.
...
US gifts hi-tech arms to pakistan, and buying US arms just cross-subsidizes the US aid machine. Better to maintain a distance from them, at least make sure that they don't get billions of dollars from us so that they can give free aid to pakistan

F-16 should be kicked out and F-18 kept on tender hooks in the next round of selection.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Mar 2010 13:01

Drop both contenders straight away in open protest.The US has unfurled its "flag" in the region,fully in support of the Pakis.Shame on you Dr.Singh fror such mindless grovelling at Uncle O's feet!

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 05 Mar 2010 13:09

Fat chance of F-16 making it anyway , it's an old airframe design and upgraded to the hilt, besides it dosen't quite fit our requirements as a single engine , single seat plane good at A2A engagements.

I hope and pray to God everyday that we don't end up with the SH , especially with newer and better designs like Rafale and Eurofighter available.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 05 Mar 2010 15:06

Mig 35 is getting certain by the day

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Mar 2010 15:18

Shankar wrote:Mig 35 is getting certain by the day

How ?

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 05 Mar 2010 16:34

Shankar wrote:Mig 35 is getting certain by the day

how did u get sir-jee

If we wanted a Russian plane in the first place , we could have easily negotiated directly. There is no purpose for going in for a global tender and purchasing a russian plane.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 05 Mar 2010 16:53

Whole MMRCA is some kind of circus , we should have gone for a single seater MKI or Su35 long time ago , Aircraft's competing are like Maruti, Honda , Ferrari are all competing in it ,it only shows IAF have little idea about their own requirements

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Mar 2010 17:36

cmon gentlemen - stop falling for shankarosky's attention grabbing one liners

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 05 Mar 2010 17:43

Shankar wrote:Mig 35 is getting certain by the day.........

......... that they are not gonna win this one !

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Mar 2010 19:23

common guys, tell me what did Shankar say wrong about Mig35?

"getting certain" to be a ....r

sawant · Post by **sawant** » 05 Mar 2010 20:47

newbie question... why didn't the US field the F-15E for MRCA... is it so precious that only their allies can have it...

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 05 Mar 2010 20:54

Marten wrote:Not sure if I qualify as a "common guy", but you have been following the discussion? Please check the previous pages of this thread (esp. Kartik's wonderful posts) for more information.

I guess Saik meant 'come on guys' (and not 'common guys'). And being a witness of his activeness in this forum, I am sure he must have read all the discussion of the previous pages.

sawant wrote:newbie question... why didn't the US field the F-15E for MRCA... is it so precious that only their allies can have it...

As the name indicates, MMRCA is a competition for the multi role fighters. F - 15 is an air superiority fighter and hence does not suit the requirements of this competition.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 05 Mar 2010 20:59

sawant wrote:newbie question... why didn't the US field the F-15E for MRCA... is it so precious that only their allies can have it...

Because Boeing only wanted to push one plane and not divide their efforts between two and they felt the SH better met the requirements set forth by India.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 05 Mar 2010 21:01

Asit P wrote:As the name indicates, MMRCA is a competition for the multi role fighters. F - 15 is an air superiority fighter and hence does not suit the requirements of this competition.

The F-15E is a multi-role fighter, it's just that Boeing decided to push the SH instead.

I'm sure if India expressed interest in the F-15E, they would be happy to push that.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Mar 2010 21:07

^^^ Well F-15E would get classified as "heavy" fighter and not the "medium" one that IAF is looking out for

But if F-15F is allowed to participate that would be great as that would allow Su-35 to get in as well and will be a fitting tribute to MMRCA race from Gripen to Su-35

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Mar 2010 21:20

Apologies, for the typo. I do read Kartik's wonderful posts. He is so detailed and correct to the core.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 05 Mar 2010 22:15

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Asit P wrote:As the name indicates, MMRCA is a competition for the multi role fighters. F - 15 is an air superiority fighter and hence does not suit the requirements of this competition.
The F-15E is a multi-role fighter, it's just that Boeing decided to push the SH instead.

I'm sure if India expressed interest in the F-15E, they would be happy to push that.

F-15 E is also I believe 100M apiece. We could probably modify the MKI instead.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 05 Mar 2010 22:21

Carl_T wrote:F-15 E is also I believe 100M apiece. We could probably modify the MKI instead.

Price is undoubtedly one of the reasons Boeing decided to go with the SH.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 05 Mar 2010 22:33

george, weight was the only reason. it would have been difficult for MOD/IAF to justify to the parliament why the f-15 was in running when we already have the MKI. not that the hornet is enormously lighter but it still is under 30t.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Mar 2010 23:14

* Dassault Rafale
* Eurofighter Typhoon
* Lockheed Martin F-16IN Super Viper
* Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet
* Saab Gripen NG
* Mikoyan MiG-35

Sounds like an order of preference for CEO World.

http://ceoworld.biz/ceo/2010/03/04/indi ... o-will-win
The air force requirement for the MMRCA is based on a maximum all-up weight of 14,000-30,000 kg. (31,000-66,000 lb.). India plans to procure 18aircraft in flyaway condition and produce 106 locally under license through technology transfer. Delivery starts within 36 months of contract signing and will be completed 48 months later.

Also, read :-
Considerations: Strategic considerations may influence government’s final decision.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 05 Mar 2010 23:45

Rafale Rafale Rafale

Nothing beats Rafale in terms of flexibility to operate and maintenance -very easy to operate, and upgraded mirage sort of platform which we are already using ,. Never heard of any major problems wrto mirage2K's quality ,.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 06 Mar 2010 00:00

well Mig 35 is certain because

us by supplying the f-16s to pakistan had cut its won tail - no way airforce is going to buy some thing from the same country which is so blatantly pakistan centric in its policy

sweeden no political clout and too similar to LCA

Typhhon may be second choice but syill we need the numbers

Rafale never looked good

so guys It has to be Mig 35 - let Putin come - and dont forget the Arihant and Nerpa -we have to make the payback some how