Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

negi · Post by **negi** » 07 Mar 2010 01:10

Sanku wrote: In fact even the parliamentary report states that Navy does a better job because it handles more of the design etc directly (also linked to higher number of technically qualified folks)

Well even for that the vision and will to support indigenisation should come from the top , no has stopped IA to do what IN has been doing .

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 Mar 2010 01:15

Don;t say SPA

just sawa picture of Bhim while consolidating all Arjun info in one place

sawant · Post by **sawant** » 07 Mar 2010 03:49

let me know if this was answered earlier... but we bought T-90 in a state of panic when the Pakis bought T-80... was there a geniune mistake (naivete if i may say so) on the part of IA and hardball by the Russians that led us to be saddled with so many T-90s... and this was the 90s i think with Arjun not so good and we not so rich as we are today... may be thats the reason IA mite want to justify T-90 acquisition since it was an honest panicky buy rather than malice as we mostly think...

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 07 Mar 2010 07:19

self-delete: OT

negi · Post by **negi** » 07 Mar 2010 07:49

--deleted--

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 07 Mar 2010 07:58

FWIW, this post is continuation of discussion happened towards this end.

The Rediff Interview/Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat

What about the T-90 tank deal?

The T-90 deal was mooted earlier, but was pushed after Pokhran and Kargil. This was triggered by the import of rusting T-80 Ukraine junk tanks to Pakistan. Why should we buy junk if Pakistan is buying it? Just see what the Americans do. They keep upgrading their equipment all the time. We should do the same. [/color]Not just keep shopping all the time. The T-90 deal was not vital to India's interest.

We must remember that without an indigenous capability, we cannot have an independent foreign policy. With the secession of the Soviet Union, we have fallen into the hands of arms dealers.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 07 Mar 2010 08:03

ParGha wrote: Indian Navy has overwhelming superiority over its most likely foe, something which the IAF and especially the IA don't enjoy. It makes them more conservative and cautious than the IN, because they have less room for trial and error. Whats so difficult to understand about that situation?

Is it like selecting marginally supeior like T-90S towards T-80UD, the one which Pak inducted.
I'm not able to think of how it could be. Can you explain how that happened?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 07 Mar 2010 08:03

rohitvats wrote:A quick question on Tank-Ex: Considering the fact the Arjun turret has been fitted to the T-72M1 hull.....does it mean that the diameter of the place where turret meets the hull (I don't know the technical name) is same for both the tanks? The reason I ask is, if they are not same, then the internal volume will be less in case of Tank-Ex and Arjun turret would have been modified for this aspect?

The the question you are asking has answer here

Tank-Ex is popularly known as T-72 chassis and Arjun Tank turret. This is correct in principal but bit different in implementation. Arjun Turret is 20 tons and Arjun has 4 man crew, so how would Arjun Turret fit into a 3 man T-72 Tank? Arjun Turret has manual loading and the crew except driver sits inside. Some times Tank-Ex is called Karna, which is not true; karma was T-72 chassis with Arjun Turret and meant for testing platform for Arjun, it was very crude. Probably Tank-Ex evolved from there.

Arjun Tank Turret like most 55 ton + tank turrets has many advanced features. Arjun Tank also has many advanced electronics add-ons and a very good gun. The first task was to reduce the weight of the Arjun Turret for T-72 use. The armor of the Arjun Turret was rationalized and hence it brought down the weight of the Turret. An autoloader can be installed into the turret. The two changes along with advanced addon’s and Arjun Tank Gun will make it a very potent upgrade for T-72 tanks worldwide.

RahulM, I hope this is a valid thing to do.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 07 Mar 2010 08:15

self-delete: OT

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 Mar 2010 08:43

I do have to smirk at Bhagwats answers of how the wonderful rules in the US prevent corruption.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 07 Mar 2010 11:09

Surya... about the painful process in your welding link... the article clearly shows how a engineer approaches the problem vs how a def offr deals with it. the engg is happy is the sample is working but the def offr who has to ride the beast wants to be doubly sure that it will work.

and about your smirk on how wonderful US rules are ... i dont see anything wrong in what Bhagwat writes ,, while I dont have anything great fascination for things american, but one has to agree that there is far greater degree of accountability / oversight in all matters as compared to india. they indeed have systems in place to grill people in high places publicly ... and accord suitable punsihment. Further, its no secret that we find it very hard to say no or stand up to our bosses.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Mar 2010 12:31

kanson, please move that rediff interview to corruption in defence deals thread and link it here. kindly delete the above post. also please don't post the whole article.

chacko, it's ok.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 07 Mar 2010 14:10

Kanson ji thanks for the article,its an eye opener!!
the level of corruption had risen very high despite leaked out
The ex admiral clearly points out that t90 is of a junk category

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 07 Mar 2010 14:23

Got to agree with manjgu here.. we need an open system that can hold the decision makers accountable to their decisions...

And Kansonji he also points out that the Vik is also junk... so you say we should not have bought it???

Sorry about the OT...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 07 Mar 2010 14:39

Samay wrote:Kanson ji thanks for the article,its an eye opener!!
the level of corruption had risen very high despite leaked out
The ex admiral clearly points out that t90 is of a junk category

Samay, while T-90 inherits the flaws of T-XX series of tanks, it is not junk by any yardstick of imagination....it is right there with all the other top MBTs of the world.......especially after it receives the planned add-ons like APS and EOCMDAS....it can thump anything in PA or PLA service.....

Question: IIRC, Igorr had posted details of a newer version of T-90-->T-90M, if I'm not mistaken. Anyone has info on that? While the 310+347+10 are already in service, are they planned to be upgraded to this new standard? And also, are future set of tanks (1000+god know how many more) in this new category? Does engine upgrade form part of any planned upgrade? Thanx.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 07 Mar 2010 16:11

I am not saying that t90 is a complete junk ,I was refering to what ex-chief admiral had pointed out , comparing t90 with other MB tanks available at that time.
We all know that t90 is based upon t72 , but its weakness was ignored because our focus is only PA ,and some other tiny reasons as well,t90 was deliberately chosen over others,neglecting essential facts..

If we are import oriented ,even Merkava4 would be better than t90 in terms of protection,.The type of relations we have with israelis,we could have got full TOT on it ,.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Mar 2010 16:59

merkava is not good enough for our kind of terrain. it is custom made for israel's case with high demands for protection in urban warfare. in the balance between mobility weight and protection it is firmly on the protection side and pays the cost in terms of mobility and weight.

it is right there with all the other top MBTs of the world

ahem ? another tank is not the only thing an MBT needs to be afraid of. there it is at least a generation behind other tanks. will it survive against any other top tank ? some of those add-ons will also be there on the other tanks, in fact some already are.

it can thump anything in PA or PLA service

without getting thumped back in return ? not too sure of that.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 07 Mar 2010 19:15

An MBT is designed to be very mobile and able to tackle most types of terrain. Its wide tracks disperse the heavy weight of the vehicle over a large area, resulting in a specific ground pressure that might be lower than that of a man's foot. The types of terrain that do pose a problem are usually extremely soft ground such as swamps, soft sand or rocky terrain scattered with large boulders (as in Ladakh). In "normal" terrain, a tank can be expected to travel at about 30-50 km/h, with a road speed of up to 70 km/h.

The issue in getting from point A to point B is another important paradox in tank design. On paper, or during any "test drive" of a few hours a single tank offers better off-road performance than any wheeled fighting vehicle. On a road the fastest tank design is not much slower than the average wheeled fighting vehicle design.

In practice, the huge weight of the tank combined with the relative weakness of the track assembly ensure that the maximum road speed of a tank is really a "burst" speed which can be kept up for only a short time before there is a mechanical breakdown. The maximum off-road speed is much lower, but in general it cannot be kept up continuously for a day, given the variety of off-road terrains and their unpredictable nature, with the possible exception of plains and hard sandy deserts.

Tank design is a compromise; it is not possible to maximise firepower, protection and mobility simultaneously. For example, increasing protection by adding armour will result in an increase in weight and therefore decrease mobility; increasing firepower by installing a larger gun will force the designer to sacrifice speed or armour to compensate for the added weight and cost. Even in the case of the Abrams MBT which has good firepower, speed and armour, these advantages are counterbalanced by its notably thirsty engine, which ultimately reduces its range and in a larger sense its mobility.

One factor that is not considered by us is the terrain in which we will use the tanks.

Though there is ground water depletion in the Punjab, the ground is still not quite firm along the canals.

The Thar desert is not a total firm desert. There are soft sand in many parts where even a jeep gets stuck.

The Rann of Kutch is inundated with water from May to September. Afterwards, some patches remain wet, though some places look dry but actually have slush underneath and the ground may give away any time.

Thus, wherever the ground pressure is not compatible to the design, there will be strain on the engine and greater fuel consumption and hence adding to the maintenance and duel resupply issues.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 Mar 2010 19:25

manjgu

1. wrt to the welding - yes and the DRDO\DRML guys did everything asked of them - but the point was the nature of the interaction. I have some theories about it but its OT for this thread. But my point was also to show how they have to painfully develop the technologies and none of which we will get by importing CKds

2. Regarding US - I disagee - the rules are only as good as the people who are getting more andmore corrupt. The corruption is there and its just that they are more sophisticated about how they hide it. A ride through the rich Virginia counties adjacent to DC should give an idea

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 07 Mar 2010 19:27

Rahul: It is not for corruption but for leadership or the lack of and the consequence of having a fragile leadership in the armed forces, that i posted that interview. And how US forces handled throu leadership after Vietnam. It is a continuation of couple of discussions i had with RayC and others and i see his arguments more in nature agree with what i was trying to say in my own understanding.

Rohitvats/Samay: I think, the admiral viewed the T-90 as junk from the point of India's vital interest. It is another debate whether T-90 is a junk or not.

Samay: T-80UD is junk becoz, it is not suited for the terrain in Pak(pls google the problem T-80UD faces in Pak). So what the admiral saying is, we should have our own vision and should evolve based on what we need, like Israelis did with Merk and IN doing in most projects, like in-house SONAR development. Further on the T-90 procurement debate, you can check on the parliament report that Negi quoted in one of the post above. We have an option of chosing T-72S, upgraded T-72M1 and T-90S. As per the defence officer report, all are equally potent like T-90S and do all the roll that T-90S thought to do and real scandal seems to be the price of T-90S which is way much higher than other options we had - as per the report. You can also check the upgrade cost of Ajeya to CIA and see how that compares to the price of T-90S that we procured which is around 13 Crores. If we believe Col. Ajai, the real price of T-90S is around 17 Crores alomost equal to Arjun which is considered to be having much superior capability, mobility and protection.

Bala: If there is an option of scrapping the Gorky deal and use that money + whatever needed to get aircraft carrier like CVF QE, then i def. vote for scrapping the Gorky, irrespective of what admiral is/was thinking. As i said to Rahul, the purpose of posting the interview is for leadership which he espouses not for his views on Gorky. Thanks.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Mar 2010 19:33

kanson, that interview primarily talks about corruption in MOD. anyway, posting full articles is not encouraged, you know the drill about copyright and all that.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 07 Mar 2010 19:48

Kanson,

I can neither confirm nor deny what Admiral Bhagwat has said.

Yet, one wonders about the procurement policies, more so when it is the government realm. Bofors is a case in point where an excellent weapon was denied to the IA because of political sleaze (if indeed) and shenanigans.

It is good that you posted the ex CNS’ interview. It was interesting and helped me to understand the situation better. That he is totally correct, is another issue!

Though it is not appreciated out here when I mention that it is people in uniform who are most concerned about the efficacy of equipment being inducted than the average man Jack on the street, but the fact remains that we are concerned. I am sure you will agree that our lives are not going cheap and others’ lives are expensive!

Though I have seen an Arjun, I daresay that those who will induct it are people who can be bought off totally and be besmirched in posterity as a failure as was Gen PN Thapar in 1962. We are instilled in the factor ‘honour’ and to lose it is as good as having committed suicide! Therefore is the Arjun better or the T 90 tanking all issues into consideration is beyond me. I am not an Armoured Corps Officer, whose life is at stake, though I am keen as to how he can support.

Therefore, to condemn those who have ridden tanks, fought wars with Pakistan, know the terrain etc to be total nincompoops and us, here, are the expert is indeed a sad commentary.

I wonder how many here commenting so authoratively, apart from seeing theoretical pamphlets, have actually seen a tank, ridden them and participated in exercises to comment.

I agree Shukla is an AC officer, but then to believe that he is the only expert is a bit too thick. He is a journalist and it is known that one has to go by what the editor and the owner has to say. I am marvelled at his change of heart. Has he mentioned why he did so?

I have also seen things but I cannot comment what happens in the Chief’s office and the pressures he is in, since I never became a Chief.

Though I agree with Adm Bhagwat that the Chief should not be wimp.

But then experts here would know better!

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 07 Mar 2010 19:56

rohitvats wrote: Question: IIRC, Igorr had posted details of a newer version of T-90-->T-90M, if I'm not mistaken. Anyone has info on that? While the 310+347+10 are already in service, are they planned to be upgraded to this new standard? And also, are future set of tanks (1000+god know how many more) in this new category? Does engine upgrade form part of any planned upgrade? Thanx.

You mean this

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... and-T-90AK

http://otvaga2004.narod.ru/xlopotov_8/t90m.htm
------------
Thanks Rahul, i keep that in mind.

Thanks RayC for posting your view, when i get time i will reply to your point.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 07 Mar 2010 20:53

Surya... i would judge corruption levels in a country based on experiences, position of country on a corruption index, wether it has impacted national security etc etc .. and not based on size of houses. I see lot of big houses in Denmark, Sweden as well , so are you telling us that these country are as corrupt as india or maybe more. Nobody denies corruption buts its scale, intensity, spread is important.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 Mar 2010 21:18

manjgu

its OT for this thread. you are missing the point (where did I mention house sizes for eg??)

Is lobbying counted as corruption?? No

ex services folks conveniently getting jobs as directors in corporations- No (oh year we got a rule that you cannot do it for x years)

or a spouse or sibling or children getting high paid jobs in Washington.

all these are corruption

anyway no more on this as the Breapers will come around

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 07 Mar 2010 21:20

Surya wrote: 2. Regarding US - I disagee - the rules are only as good as the people who are getting more andmore corrupt. The corruption is there and its just that they are more sophisticated about how they hide it. A ride through the rich Virginia counties adjacent to DC should give an idea

There is a very good chance that some of those properties may well belong to Indian politicians...

To corroborate the Ex CNS's statement...
This is the article on India's position on the CPI (Corruption Perception Index)

The report also indicates that defence deals, wheat import and other such areas where procurement is done by the government constitute major avenues of corruption.
"So far, the defence sector's track record has been mired in alleged corrupt deals. If the planned procurement of the nine to ten billion dollars of 126 fighters goes through without sweetners, India's score on integrity index will receive a big boost," the organisation said in a release.

"The maximum corruption takes place during government procurements. For example, when the government buys wheat or arms, or when Public Sector Units (PSUs) procure material. It is also extremely difficult to quantify," TI said.

Sincerely sorry for the OT...

negi · Post by **negi** » 07 Mar 2010 21:21

There is no news or report about rest of the T-90s being upgraded to the new AK standard , heck russians roll out incremental upgrades on a frequent basis. And in any case India will have to re-negotiate the whole deal if rest of the tanks are to receive any additional equipment apart from what was agreed as part of original package.We had heard talk about addition of APU,AC and an improved BMS lets see how it pans out.

I don't think Adm. Bhagwat's interview is relevant to the issue at hand for no one here has made any categorical claims about paybacks or other types of foul play as far as IA is concerned (and he has used a wide brush by even including the MKI ) , we have just raised pointed questions with regards to the logic at work behind ordering the T-90 vis a vis the Arjun specially in the backdrop of issues faced by the former in Indian conditions.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 07 Mar 2010 22:00

Surya.. I wanna know whats your defn of a rich neighbourhood / county?

I really think this debate is going nowhere ... I think in the CT/COIN thread, Rohitvats rightly said its not within our competence to discuss tactics etc... i think a similar argument applies here. all of us can only speculate, ... without access to / or a full understanding of factors that went into decision making for T 90 / Arjun. I guess in a open forum like this one can discuss some issues only to a certain point and no more. Beyond that its my word against yours.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 07 Mar 2010 22:31

Err my only point was about so called "lack of corruption" in the US system.

That is within our realm to comment on - but OT for this thread. I had no other comment on Bhagwats interview

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 07 Mar 2010 22:34

i meant the 'debate of T 90's and Arjuns' and not this 'corruption issue'

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 07 Mar 2010 23:48

negi wrote:
Sanku wrote: In fact even the parliamentary report states that Navy does a better job because it handles more of the design etc directly (also linked to higher number of technically qualified folks)
Well even for that the vision and will to support indigenisation should come from the top , no has stopped IA to do what IN has been doing .

Yes, the IA can not make these changes without substantial restructuring and approval from MoD (Navy had a different history since inception) -- actually a lot of good things that Navy is doing came out of the fact that it was a service not regarded as important as IA before (a far cry from todays age where the avg politico is heard explaining Pax Indiana in our ocean)

DRDO itself does block IA a lot of time as well.

Dont assume that DRDO folks are shying daisies when it comes to GoI level turf wars, they give as good as they get. In fact some of them do more of political turf wars than project management.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 07 Mar 2010 23:50

negi wrote:...........<SNIP>We had heard talk about addition of APU,AC and an improved BMS lets see how it pans out.......<SNIP>

Excuse my ignorance, but does the T-90 already have BMS?And improvement are we talking about here on the present system? Also, where do they put the APU and AC or "Environment Management System, if you will...

. And with EMS, what happens to the engine power? Won't we require a higher HP engine to compensate for the power drag@EMS? And ofcourse, the Active Protection System(APS)...IIRC, the RPF is already out on it? Are we also looking at EOCMAD a la Shtora-1? Thanx.

negi · Post by **negi** » 08 Mar 2010 00:28

^ God only knows , as for the BMS there were rumors about DRDO-BEL making one for the T-90's (the DEFEXPO 2010 had players like GD and Tata power too advertising their capabilities in C3I and BMS systems clearly targeting the IA).

As for the APU and AC most probably we will see a 'dabba' of sorts jutting out of the aft of the turret till then the crew will have to manage with ice vests .

Hey btw did we miss this story about Raytheon entering the MBT scene ?

http://www.livemint.com/2010/02/1622444 ... up-fo.html

The country’s biggest engineering company Larsen and Toubro Ltd (L&T) has tied up with US weapons firm Raytheon Co. to upgrade the Indian Army’s T-72 tanks.

The two firms have submitted a joint proposal for working on the Indian Army’s main battle tank, which was originally designed by the Russians.

Raytheon will provide infrared imaging sights and electronics for the tank, L&T said in a statement on Tuesday.

Ah so the recent outburst by the IA top brass about tank fleet being night blind now makes sense. I wonder if issues with integration of Catherine TI with Peleng sight on T-90 is one of the reasons for the news about Raytheon's imager and electronics for T-72 upgrade .

negi · Post by **negi** » 08 Mar 2010 00:48

Rohit

There is a nice story around the Shotra and Arena too ; it is said that in order to silence the critics of the T-90 deal who questioned it vis a vis an upgraded T-72 , the MoD opted for a T-90 without Shtora and only limited number of Refleks missiles in original package to keep the costs down.

And we had folks acknowledge this on tanknet long back , although no one knew the reason.

As per Col. Shukla's blog

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/ ... ur-of.html

The Directorate General of Mechanised Forces now plans to equip India’s eventual 1,657-tank T-90 fleet with the advanced ARENA active protection system, for which it has budgeted Rs 2,500 crore in the Army Acquisition Plan for 2009-11.

So yes the need for additional protection is 'FELT' by the IA .

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Mar 2010 01:04

Sounds like IA has no play in sourcing its armored vehicles when one says, Bofors was an excellent platform and it was denied to IA 'cause of external politics. On the same note, why doesn't Russian weapon systems qualify for such politics?

If IA has no role play in this, then how come they have a bigger say in engaging DRDO for Arjun? some how the politics, decisions, and defence needs and its requirements do not fall in the right places. We just don't have a one sided discrepancy here.

If one takes records, there are more non-Russian origin systems in scams and blacklists and against a very 100% Mr. Clean Russia. How is that possible, in a country where the corruption index itself says [An index is worth thousands words].

There is rot not just in our political system, but more.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Mar 2010 01:06

negi

The interesting part will be how any add on will drain the T 90s already less than 1000 HP engine output.

There are 2 problems - no space plus the drain on power.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Mar 2010 01:23

negi wrote:Rohit

There is a nice story around the Shotra and Arena too ; it is said that in order to silence the critics of the T-90 deal who questioned it vis a vis an upgraded T-72 , the MoD opted for a T-90 without Shtora and only limited number of Refleks missiles in original package to keep the costs down.

And we had folks acknowledge this on tanknet long back , although no one knew the reason..........

negi, courtsey the firing across the trenches in the latest "tank-e-hindustan" versus "tanl-al-roosee" debate, I've read almost everything about the T-90 deal on public forum....I'm aware of the add-on issue+low intial acquisition cost.... IIRC RFP for APS was issued some time back and as usual, our roosie freinds find Yehudi companies competing against them....

But I had not come across anything on BMS wrt T-90;hence the question. I do remember reading "hand-held" BMS system on Arjun which was to be upgraded into more advanced and capable system for MKII.may be they are using the same on T-90.....interestingly, the Shukla article came when their was debate going on about the cost of T-90 and Arjun..and how T-90@12crores was cheaper....

I've said this earlier also; T-90 will require all the bells and whistles to make it 'THE TOP DOG' amongst the current crop of T-XX and T-XX derived tanks.....and these bells and whistles are a must.....Just check on the numbers of ATGM imported by PA..for them ATGM Units (mounted and otherwise..mounted are part of Anti-Tank/Light Anti-Tank Brigades) are integral part of doctrine to blunt Indian Armored offensive and allow for as many tanks/Regiments as possible for offensive actions.....

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 08 Mar 2010 08:46

BMS is in the pipeline and I believe commercial agencies are also working on it.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Mar 2010 11:06

RayC wrote:BMS is in the pipeline and I believe commercial agencies are also working on it.

Sir, can you provide link to source of the above information. Thank you.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Mar 2010 11:41

^^^^^^ rayC has given the correct information on the BMS.