Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 15 May 2010 00:14

Well if it gets sanctioned, it'll be a pretty ambitious program. Target of 2020 looks unlikely. Its not a substitute for the Arjun MkII, that's for certain.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 15 May 2010 00:25

FMBT = Arjun MKIII?

Arjun MKI and MKII should make up the bulk of our armor and the majority of the existing T series tanks should be slowly phased out.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 15 May 2010 00:47

Craig Alpert wrote:EXCLUSIVE: India's Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT)
Courtesy ~ Livefist!!!!

that is a totally new design,

i hope they don't want all these things in Arjun mkII.
Also don't we have any plans for Futuristic Light Tank ??

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 15 May 2010 00:47

Till all of the above are accomplished, as an indication of seriousness, the Army steadfastly will commit only to the purchase of tin cans which blow up at the slightest hit.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 May 2010 00:57

sameer_shelavale wrote:
EXCLUSIVE: India's Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT)[/url]
Courtesy ~ Livefist!!!!

Someone has spent lot of time reading up lot of fantasy stuff......

For an Army that wants unobtanium in their FMBT....its sure is real put down when using those Tin Cans....

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 15 May 2010 01:02

Craig Alpert wrote:EXCLUSIVE: India's Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT)
Courtesy ~ Livefist!!!!

I suppose many of the demanding technologies have to be realized in steps by introducing them on upgrade packages for Arjun. That is if there are enough Arjuns ordered to test them on. The Army doesn't seem to have decided on what kind of main gun the tank should have or the crew configuration.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 15 May 2010 03:15

To the IA: would you like some fries with that ?

Seriously, the T-90 scandal is orders of magnitude greater than Bofors. The T-can series is so markedly inferior to the Arjun in fire power, mobility, crew protection, heat ( temp.) operability, netcentricity.... and the IA orders 1600 vs 124.

BTW they should make sure the FMBT comes with the sport suspension option like my BMW Z4. It really makes a difference

RonyKJ · Post by **RonyKJ** » 15 May 2010 03:28

How about an attached bath with a jacuzzi as well?
Wouldn't you want that, IA?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 15 May 2010 04:28

rohitvats wrote: Someone has spent lot of time reading up lot of fantasy stuff......

For an Army that wants unobtanium in their FMBT....its sure is real put down when using those Tin Cans....

While the DRDO is developing those technologies, and get behind schedule, the IA will be forced to buy the next generation of tank from Russia, of which it may again be the launch customer, teething troubles and all. By the time DRDO's FMBT beats the T-XX, IA will be ready with FFMBT specs

sivabala · Post by **sivabala** » 15 May 2010 04:52

You guys did not get it.
1) Why do you think tank need a pickup to top speed of 2.5 s. Because, in future IA army expects to fight urban war. In order to beat the urban traffic and minimize stopover at traffic signals they need very good pickup time. who knows the FMBT may beat Ferrai in F1 race too.
2) They asked for electro+diesel+gasturbine power pack. (This is only for FMBT Mk-I). For Mk-II they will ask for nuclear+solar powerpack to minimize carbon foot print as well as smoke from burning fossil fuels. By the way, all our tanks are going to be fried in desert why not make solar power.
---
I hope the requirements in shiv aroor's blog are just his hallucainations. If it's indeed the requirements posed by the Armored corps we better writeoff armored force for IA.
----
Requirements for an equipment should be based on what we are going to face (like depth of penetration, blast effect of enemy ATGMs) and what we need(Equivalent depth of protection against blast, etc...). User proposes requirements, it is the designer who suggests solutions whether we need electric gun or paint gun or or air guns. Then both have to discuss and find a common solution.
If the army dreams and dictates what color the chocolate has to be wrapped I guess its time for DRDO to walk away from meeting armored corps requirements. Otherwise they will end up maligning their name for decades.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 15 May 2010 05:14

THis is the great FMBT austin, sanku, philip were all waiting for

once again I do not know whether to laugh or cry

hybrid electric vehicle technology

) Excellent corrosion resistance,

The Army points out that the main battlefield threats against tanks are Anti Tank Guided Missile (ATGMs), unguided anti tank rockets and grenades; shaped charge High Explosive Anti Tank (HEAT) gun rounds; Kinetic Energy (KE) gun rounds; and top-attack weapons like intelligent sub-munitions, terminally guided artillery rounds, etc.

no sh1t sherlock

Mark Walpole · Post by **Mark Walpole** » 15 May 2010 05:35

Is there any idea on how heavy they want this FMBt to be...as the earlier gripes about the weight of the arjun were an issue..
also isnt htis another issue of not improving what we have now and jumping ahead without even letting the present tech to mature...and for the industrial base to catch up??
Im prettys sure its notjust me who thinks that some one somewhere has read a brochure for some upcoming american/isreli tech and want it without realizing the ground realities..

also to add to the lis a electromagneticall stabalized turret with a electromagnetic rail gun quick firing depleted uranium shells..
and reverse engineering russian plasma stealth tech so the tank becomes all nice and shiny.(sorry but couldnt help myself

)...

MS

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 May 2010 05:41

^^^ less than 45 tonnes.

sigh ! thus begins begins wild-goose chase, part-II.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 May 2010 06:08

I think it is a very good idea. At the very least the R&D will start on ALL these fronts. In about 10 years we can expect a decent home made tank.

I am actually inclined to believe that this is a vote for the Arjun and Indian capability.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 15 May 2010 08:27

Mark Walpole wrote:Is there any idea on how heavy they want this FMBt to be...as the earlier gripes about the weight of the arjun were an issue..

weight will not be an issue, since it needs to have VTOL to cross the Tin Can spec-ed paki bridges.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 May 2010 08:40

Looks to me that Shiv Aroor has read some Phoren magazine on FMBT and then quickly jotted it down as key IA FMBT requirement ........the entire stuff looks cooked up

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 15 May 2010 09:51

Austin wrote:Looks to me that Shiv Aroor has read some Phoren magazine on FMBT and then quickly jotted it down as key IA FMBT requirement ........the entire stuff looks cooked up

Then he definitely got it right

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 May 2010 09:57

milindc wrote:
Austin wrote:Looks to me that Shiv Aroor has read some Phoren magazine on FMBT and then quickly jotted it down as key IA FMBT requirement ........the entire stuff looks cooked up
Then he definitely got it right

Sure he did , he should rename that to "Shiv Aroor FMBT Project"

vina · Post by **vina** » 15 May 2010 10:01

1) Why do you think tank need a pickup to top speed of 2.5 s. Because, in future IA army expects to fight urban war. In order to beat the urban traffic and minimize stopover at traffic signals they need very good pickup time. who knows the FMBT may beat Ferrai in F1 race too

I know you meant this in jest, but you do realize how simply unrealistic, nay idiotic this entire requirement of "top speed in 2.5s" is ?.

There is no road vehicle anywhere in the world and wont be there in the reasonable future to have that kind of specs. Dont believe me ?. Just check out the 0 to 60 MPH of a Porche 911 Carrera Turbo.. it will be around 3.x seconds. Most sports cars will do it at around 4 secs or so. A 500 hp Corvette will do that in some 4.x seconds.

And what is the total weight of a Porche 911 or something less cutting edge like the Corvette and the resulting power to weight ratios ?.

Okay, let us take it to the extreme. A F1 car with around 1000 + hp engine and a weight that is literally nothing when compared to a road going car and hence a stupendous power to ratio will take a LOT more than 2.5 secs to reach it's top speed of around 300+ kmph.

Why if the Arjun MkXX can do it in 2.5 secs , assuming a top speed of around 75 kmph on the road, why it can take on the bulk of the road going race cars on the road today and lick them. Think of it , A Schumacher driving a Ferrari Maranello /Lamborghini Murcielago would get licked my an Indian Army Arjun MKxx, driven by a SDRE Indian Army tank driver recruit.

Added.. I meant to a 75kmph sprint from standstill..

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 15 May 2010 10:02

Austin wrote:Looks to me that Shiv Aroor has read some Phoren magazine on FMBT and then quickly jotted it down as key IA FMBT requirement ........the entire stuff looks cooked up

Why would shiv aroor do that? It is no secret that many of the IA GSQRs are based on fancy brochures and many former IA officers have commented on it.

Note that this FMBT requirement calls for redesign from ground up to have stealth features and ERA built-in. So, this doesn't build on the Arjun platform, but a totally new platform.

It is not like it is not achieveable, but given the current state of our mil-ind complex, it will easily take 20 years to achieve it. And then everyone will blame DRDO for agreeing to the specs and being late in delivering it.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 15 May 2010 10:06

vina wrote: Why if the Arjun MkXX can do it in 2.5 secs , assuming a top speed of around 75 kmph on the road, why it can take on the bulk of the road going race cars on the road today and lick them. Think of it , A Schumacher driving a Ferrari Maranello /Lamborghini Murcielago would get licked my an Indian Army Arjun MKxx, driven by a SDRE Indian Army tank driver recruit.

And not to forget the fact that the fancy cars are aerodynamically designed to reduce drag as much as possible with sleek lines, and as low weight as possible. Now compare that to a bulky MBT lugging around a huge gun with tons of armour on it

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 May 2010 10:19

putnanja wrote:Why would shiv aroor do that? It is no secret that many of the IA GSQRs are based on fancy brochures and many former IA officers have commented on it.

That is because I know for a fact that IA has not even firmed up its FMBT requirement and is more in an exploratory stage it will be many years that IA will firm up its GSQR on FMBT , while Shiv Aroor has come up with its own specs what IA needs or should have on FMBT , just reminds me of Mr Prasun Sengupta mixing fact fantasy and fiction to cook a good story

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 15 May 2010 10:35

All you boys got it wrong. FMBT will be made of TIN

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 15 May 2010 10:37

What! No wings needed for FMBT??

Mitsy · Post by **Mitsy** » 15 May 2010 10:40

vina wrote:
1) Why do you think tank need a pickup to top speed of 2.5 s. Because, in future IA army expects to fight urban war. In order to beat the urban traffic and minimize stopover at traffic signals they need very good pickup time. who knows the FMBT may beat Ferrai in F1 race too
I know you meant this in jest, but you do realize how simply unrealistic, nay idiotic this entire requirement of "top speed in 2.5s" is ?.

I think what is indicated here is that the full power from the engine should be available for vehicle's acceleration in 2.5 sec, not that the vehicle itself should accelerate to top speed in this time...

The ‘Hyberbar’ engine will be able to accelerate from zero to full power at 1,500 hp in 2.8 seconds, while a conventional diesel engine requires 8-12 seconds

-------------

NRao wrote:I think it is a very good idea. At the very least the R&D will start on ALL these fronts. In about 10 years we can expect a decent home made tank.

I am actually inclined to believe that this is a vote for the Arjun and Indian capability.

Second that.. While Arjun with its current capabilities needs to be given its due in the immediate future, if the DRDO approaches such requirements with an open mind, they might actually end up with a new platform 15-20 yrs down the line to which Army would never be in a position to say no..

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 15 May 2010 11:16

No, No guys.

You guys dont understand it. The IA for developing this tank is going to give all its money without even paying its soldiers salaries for the next 20 years. see IA is sooo generous

This is even past the best of Brochuritis claims.

If this is what the Indian armour thinks it needs in future and not Shiv's dreams, I shudder to think this is the groundwork which our cavalry does for what they will use in 10 years, my mind goes to unthinkable

Nope, this is purely a ploy so that all these guys go on getting their natashas and kill off drdo. nothing else.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 May 2010 11:57

one comment in that blog sums it up: "the product of a Col spending a night with jhonny walker and Janes"

another comment says "its meant to send DRDO on a wild goose chase while IA keeps on buying its beloved T-90s"

even sher khan & germany in a coalition will struggle to meet that spec starting now with delivery in 2030.

chandanus · Post by **chandanus** » 15 May 2010 12:06

The boy has asked for a very expensive n imported candy from the daddy ...

They forgot to specify the speed...which should be a minimum of
MACH 2...

The tank should have its own RADAR ..AESA.. preferably...

It also must have the capability to fire BRAHMOS..

Should be capable of AIR to GROUND Refelling...by..IL-78..

Rest i will post later.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 May 2010 12:16

My initial reaction and take it seriously please: BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Added Later...

Could be culled from NGFA.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 15 May 2010 12:17

NRao wrote:I think it is a very good idea. At the very least the R&D will start on ALL these fronts. In about 10 years we can expect a decent home made tank.

I am actually inclined to believe that this is a vote for the Arjun and Indian capability.

Guess what is the best way to set somebody up for failure.... Yes.. set fancy/scifi goals and keep them busy, that is if they are foolish enough to bite!

That is some spin calling this a vote for Arjun!

Mitsy wrote:Second that.. While Arjun with its current capabilities needs to be given its due in the immediate future, if the DRDO approaches such requirements with an open mind, they might actually end up with a new platform 15-20 yrs down the line to which Army would never be in a position to say no..

Oh Yes.. it is the DRDO that has to approach such requirements with an open mind!!

Who knows, with such an approach, the incompetent fools at DRDO might finally deliver the Avatar style RDA Gunship (link) and FMBT the same day.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 May 2010 12:42

The Leclerc has an eight-cylinder, Wärtsilä (ex SACM) V8X-1500 1500 hp Hyperbar (not hyberbar) diesel engine.

On internet:
hyperbar is a system that runs a turbo like a gasturbine when the engine doesn't give the turbo enough energy (mass flow and energy) to make boost. the energy to run the turbine comes from a combustion chamber and that combustion is supplied with air by the compressor. The turbo can run at 1 or 2 bars of boost while the engine is running on idle...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 May 2010 13:43

DRDO should tell the IA to buzz off and sleep with T90s if presented with this laughable set of requirement.

pvt sector is hiring across the board and pays better.

vina · Post by **vina** » 15 May 2010 13:44

The Leclerc has an eight-cylinder, Wärtsilä (ex SACM) V8X-1500 1500 hp Hyperbar (not hyberbar) diesel engine.

On internet:
hyperbar is a system that runs a turbo like a gasturbine when the engine doesn't give the turbo enough energy (mass flow and energy) to make boost. the energy to run the turbine comes from a combustion chamber and that combustion is supplied with air by the compressor. The turbo can run at 1 or 2 bars of boost while the engine is running on idle...

Yeah. Is that all this "hyperbar" brochuritis is about, increase response of turbo charged engines at low rpm? You want better solutions for this sort of stuff than this "Hyperbar" brochuritis, then I can point out some.

Look up the latest engines from VW group (VW,Audi, Seat, Skoda) with name plates called TSi there are millions of those sold around the world and the next gen cars in India given the 1.2 liter cap for petrol vehicle tax breaks, it is only a matter of time that it comes to India. There are Fiat vehicles too with the TSi. TSi basically uses a supercharger (power take off from engine) to keep the boost up at low rpms.

Okay, another approach to doing that is to use sequential turbos, with a very low charge/small turbo to do that in the low rpm .

Another approach which is currently there in India is variable geometry turbo..(Fiat Linea has it, Tata Indigo Manza has it), where the vanes of the turbo adjust so that it operates on a wide range of air flow.

The cutting edge approach I think will be to spin the turbo via a motor (electrical or power take off) so that boost is maintained even when mass flow rate is too low to keep the turbo spooled up.

But fundamentally, what this "hyperbar" /TSI business does is that flattens out the engine torque vs RPM curve for turbo charged engines and possibly you can make the engine smaller in displacement for a given power output.

Even otherwise, diesel engines, especially high displacement ones line in Tank engines will have pretty strong reserves of power at low rpm for this lack of boost not to have much effect. Anyways, there is no way in hell a diesel engine (esp a high speed one like a tank one) is going to need 10 to 12 secs to spool up to full power. It will be 5 to 6 secs at most. The boost will come in anywhere above 1500 rpm in most conventional diesel engines.

However , since this "brochuritis" called Hyperbar has been specified, even if DRDO teams up with an engine major like Eton Roots / Bosch or anyone and brings the best of breed TSi or sequential Turbo or next gen assisted turbos or finds that a variable geo turbo will do the job, the Army will Harrummph and say.. What! . No HYPERBAR!!!, it must be bad, it is "outdated" ,what about "strategic power reserve" and the useful idiots in the public and village idiots among the chatterati and the journalists (aka pimps) will go to town with "No HYPERBAR, so .. bad.. story".

And of course, our very own BR Tank warriors like Sanku Maharaj Ji will come and do cutting edge analysis on the advantages of "Hyperbar" vs "TSI" and how the greatest engine maker in the world there is "Wartsila / SACM" went "Hyperbar" while DRDO/India chose some other option, so it must be "obsolete of course" because 100% of the tanks in the world with "Hyperbar" engines chose to do well you guessed "Hyperbar" , and so, for the "next version" of the engine, the DRDO should dump whatever technical option they choose and go "Hyperbar"..

Hallelujah!.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 15 May 2010 14:11

chandanus wrote:The boy has asked for a very expensive n imported candy from the daddy ...

They forgot to specify the speed...which should be a minimum of
MACH 2...

The tank should have its own RADAR ..AESA.. preferably...

It also must have the capability to fire BRAHMOS..

Should be capable of AIR to GROUND Refelling...by..IL-78..

Rest i will post later.

SA-FMBT is also missing...
1. buddy-buddy refueling/recharging
2. Futuristic Sonar to detect subs even if the tank is on ground
3. Anti Torpedo Shield
4. Anti Satelite missiles(fired from the tank main gun)
5. something like periscope to fire torpedoes when underwater or to file missiles when behind hills.
6. Futuristic Anti Personel round(F-AT) with F-Seeker, just load picture of the person and the round once fired will go find the person and kill him

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 15 May 2010 16:24

I think this is how the final product will look like. A perfect blend of luxury and raw power.

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 15 May 2010 18:03

Indian Government Decided to go for 2nd Gen Arjun Main Battle Tank
http://idrw.org/?p=1658

The Indian government Thursday decided to go for the second generation of main battle tank Arjun and Akash surface-to-air missile to be developed by the premier Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). Annoucing a slew of measures to revitalise the DRDO in form and substance, Defence Minister A.K. Antony also approved the continuation of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) for design and development of combat aircraft and of the Kaveri aero-engine programme, defence spokesman Sitanshu Kar said.
“The decision also includes development of (main battle tank) MBT Arjun Mk-II and Akash Mk-II by the DRDO and selection of industry partners by DRDO through a transparent process by evolving a suitable mechanism,” Kar said in a statement. The decision was taken after Arjun’s performance in the comparative trials with Russian T-90 tanks came in for praise as it proved to be a superior tank.
The army has placed orders for 124 Arjun tanks, of which about 50 tanks were finally handed over to it last year to form a regiment. The government also announced the setting up of a new Defence Technology Commission to provide a major boost to research and development and decided the de-centralisation of DRDO management and making it a leaner organisation by merging some of its laboratories with other public-funded institutions.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 15 May 2010 19:12

Those who are lambasting the Army are forgetting an important thing, Army does not issue specs, GOI does

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 15 May 2010 20:20

Will this tank be able to launch and receive fixed wing aircraft ?

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 15 May 2010 20:23

By 2025 this tank will replace all the tanks, fighters, helicopters, destroyers, frigates, submarines. LPH/LCA, artillery, APCs, UAVs in service in India.

By there will be a looong orber booking for this tank.

And the Boeing, EADS, SAAB, Dassault, Raytheon, LM, MIG, Sukhoi will have to close down

K

PS. And in the mean time the Indian Army will order another 2,000 T-WXZGFD from Russia !!!
Hail Rodina

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 May 2010 20:28

symontk wrote:Those who are lambasting the Army are forgetting an important thing, Army does not issue specs, GOI does

Ayeeeooodaaaa......this is more unplayable than the in swinging yorker of Waqar Younis.....