Indian Military Aviation

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vivek_ahuja
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Singha wrote:the MTA is older than my son. wasnt the deal supposed to signed during a meeting with Putin sir last yr, but it never happened.

I think one issue is Russians just dont need a small tactical transport to the extent we do - their distances are vast - leaving aside siberian far east even the distance from moscow region to CAR states needs a IL76 to make any impact.

it may be better to just buy out the design and project from them and engage a Rus factory on contract basis, source the engine from Rus and
start building the rest ourself.
If you possessed a design for such an aircraft such as the MTA, and you knew the competence level of the people trying to buy it from you, why would you even sell the design at all? You would know that the people who buy it from you will use the experience and design data to develop different variations of the type and even larger versions etc which completely eliminates your control over them and their bank balances. If I were a Russian today, I would not sell any design data to the Indians.

No. We have to develop our own designs and involve the Russians only to the level of design troubleshooting etc on a contractual basis, as the Saras program seems to be doing...

-Vivek Ahuja
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Austin »

It is very surprising that in 15 year of development of Saras by NAL they figured out only after a crash that it has serious flaws in the aircraft's basic design. A basic design flaw would mean they will have to review the entire design from ground up.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Sanku »

As per the gyan from the web, Russians ARE intrested in MTA, they are held back due to
1) Still using An -12
2) Cost for new developments vs existing life of other options in and around 20 T (they have a large legacy fleet still)
3) India not doing its part right, MTA was really conceptualized in in 2002-3 time frame, but since then GoI seems to be in feet dragging mode.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by putnanja »

I believe it is India which is pushing the MTA more than the russians themselves. They didn't have the funds to launch the project earlier too, and the orders need to be in significant numbers. Russia had expressed interest for 200 or so frames, but they didn't put money where required.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Sanku »

putnanja wrote:I believe it is India which is pushing the MTA more than the russians themselves. They didn't have the funds to launch the project earlier too, and the orders need to be in significant numbers. Russia had expressed interest for 200 or so frames, but they didn't put money where required.
Yes, because as I said, they are still flogging old airframes and other similar a/cs. They have tons of options and efficiency is still not a critical requirement. We are different.

We need it more than them, yet their interest level is high from the a/c manufacturer side. This is a good opportunity for India to buy a stake greater than 50%, alas we prefer throwing our money down the toilet on C 17s et al.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kartik »

Austin wrote:It is very surprising that in 15 year of development of Saras by NAL they figured out only after a crash that it has serious flaws in the aircraft's basic design. A basic design flaw would mean they will have to review the entire design from ground up.
do you know what the basic design flaw as Shiv Aroor describes it, actually is ? I'd wait for more information on this before passing judgement on it. Maybe it's not a basic design flaw or maybe it is.. won't be the first time in history will it ?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shukla »

X-post

CISMoA standoff... Will India get dumbed down version of the C-130J??

Ajai Shukla reports...
If the stand-off over the CISMoA continues, India’s eight P8I Poseidon aircraft, which cost $2.1 billion, will be delivered with a down-rated avionics suite, not the high-end electronics that make the P8I a leader in its class.
Talking to Business Standard, Egan Greenstein, senior manager for business development, Boeing Defence, explained: “The signing of the CISMoA would be essential for a high-tech system like the P8I. It is absolutely packed with sensitive technologies. The US wants to share these technologies with India, but will make sure that they are suitably protected by the CISMoA.”
US Defence Secretary’s visit, Washington has written back, using concrete examples — including the P8I and the C-130J aircraft — to illustrate to New Delhi what capabilities it will pass up by refusing to sign the CISMoA and BECA.
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ds/395975/
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by tsarkar »

A cruise missile and a fighter aircraft are different philosophies. While they themselves might be highly successful in their own spheres, combining them might yield different results altogether. It might not necessarily add up, as everyone is thinking.

If I mate my kid’s housecat with a lion thinking I’ll get a large bundle of fluffiness, I might actually end up with a small bundle of wild ferocity.

A cruise missile advantages are range & low cost vis-à-vis cost of a fighter sortie. A manned fighter has flexibility. When you load a cruise missile on a fighter, you do get the advantage of added range and pre-missile launch operational flexibility. Disadvantages are a vulnerable platform, lack of agility, increased airframe stresses increasing maintenance and decreasing Technical Type Life.

Bala - sanitizing is possible only for a limited time & space window. There is no guarantee even in a sanitized frame, there aren’t any non-emitting dormant SAM sites or multiple enemy CAP/sweeps first engaging your escorts, and once escorts are engaged, engaging the strike package. Enemy AWACS can coordinate multiple sweeps against strike package.

NRao –

“A Nirbhay op will not have expectations of mega g.”

As explained in above paragraph, that is not a correct assumption. As the Luftwaffe discovered, no amount of fighter cover can compensate for lack of performance. The slowest animal in the herd is invariably killed by the predator pack.

“Precisely why they built them Growlers”

What protects a Growler from an Imaging Infra Red seeker of the type used in Python 5 against which flares or decoys are ineffective? Nothing – a Growler is dead meat to an IIR seeker.

“For all I know that trip by itself is a one-way trip for that pilot. Such a pilot is expected to fight his way till the release point.”

If nuclear, maybe yes. If conventional, the plane + pilot is worth more than the missile. However the jettisoned missile itself is an expensive munition.

In both cases, a pilot is the most expensive asset, given the amount of time taken to train and accrue experience, that no amount of money can buy.

These pros & cons will be evaluated by Ops Staff while planning missions. Su-30MKI + Brahmos missiles will be sparsely used. I personally believe not more than 2-3 squadrons will have this capability. At estimated 2500 kg, the Brahmos will probably be the single largest possible munition ever carried by a fighter.

A Pakistani ADGE node with a 463 km range AN/TPS-77 could possibly use a Su-30MKI to place a Brahmos within 290 km of it. Other than such limited roles, it won’t be as widespread as Army or Navy usage of Brahmos.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by NRao »

tsarkar,

For heaven's sake please use the "quote' button. It is very hard reading your posts.

OK.
A cruise missile and a fighter aircraft are different philosophies. While they themselves might be highly successful in their own spheres, combining them might yield different results altogether. It might not necessarily add up, as everyone is thinking.
You can make life as difficult as you want it to be.

Look at a plane as an alternative platform to launch a CM and you will solve all your problems. No one here claimed that the MKI is an ideal and sole platform from which to launch Nirbhays. All we (at least I) were reacting to was that one article which claimed that the MKI will host a Nirbhay. THAT is IT.

writing a thesis on cost benefit analysis is fine - nothing wrong with that. BUT, please do not extend that discussion into some theoretical discussions on g forces (granted a pilot may face that - but as pointed out in a strategic run he HAS to fight through it. He cannot refer to a g force manual and jettison a nuclear tipped Nirbhay. Not acceptable.)

Your posts do make sense, but IMHO are incomplete WRT the discussion on hand.

Perhaps we should agree to disagree and move on.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Viv S »

tsarkar wrote:A cruise missile advantages are range & low cost vis-à-vis cost of a fighter sortie. A manned fighter has flexibility. When you load a cruise missile on a fighter, you do get the advantage of added range and pre-missile launch operational flexibility. Disadvantages are a vulnerable platform, lack of agility, increased airframe stresses increasing maintenance and decreasing Technical Type Life.
Umm... I'm pretty sure low cost is a factor in a fighter sortie's favour. Cruise missiles are typically a high cost low risk alternative to fighter operations.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Mihir.D »

Not just the MKI, all present and future IAF aircraft will be able to use the NIrbhay MK1. That would bring even bring low level penetrators like Jaguars into the equation. As per the poster even the LCA is a delivery vehicle.

Would it be possible for the IL76 to be a carrier for the Nirbhay ?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by nrshah »

Not just the MKI, all present and future IAF aircraft will be able to use the NIrbhay MK1. That would bring even bring low level penetrators like Jaguars into the equation. As per the poster even the LCA is a delivery vehicle.

Would it be possible for the IL76 to be a carrier for the Nirbhay ?
wont it be better to buy a few dozen of backfire or blackjack (if available) if we want a regional/intercontinental bomber rather than playing with our heavy lifters
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

there has never been imo any IL76 bomber conversion - because russia had dedicated stuff like bear/blackjack/backfire for the role. its a flight of fancy and the fat fuselage is very unsuited for the role. dedicated bombers have slim bodies with just enough volume to accomodate the bomb rack/rotary missile launchers in tandem.

first let us get a inventory of 5000 nirbhay in the warehouse then worry about a bulk mailer.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Paul »

PRC Radar coverage in Yunnan will be sparse or non existent. Hence It will be more effective to launch air strikes off A&N across Mynamar into Yunnan and launch medium range cruise missiles at high impact targets in Chengdu.

This will be more effective than in tryingto get across the meat grinder scrimmage across NE borders into Tibet.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shukla »

SC refuses to stay modernisation of 30 IAF airfields
A vacation bench comprising Justices GS Singhvi and CK Prasad dismissed Selex Sistemi's petition, pleading that the contract awarded to Tata Power Company, the successful bidder, be stayed. Earlier, on April 19, 2010, the Delhi High Court had declined to stay awarding of the contract to the Tata Group firm -- referring the matter to a larger bench.

The apex court did not agree with submissions made by Selex Sistemi, which contended that the contract was awarded to the Tata Group firm without considering due procedures. Rejecting the petition, the apex court said that these were military modernisation programmes that could not be delayed any further. "No court in this country can pass an interim order in such (vital) cases," the court said, declining the US-based firm's request.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

PRC has built or acquired plenty of surveillance radars to cover the Yunnan front too because it borders India in the east. there are vital economic targets around the cities of chongqing and chengdu to the north of yunnan.

I am sure this is not some undefended back alley...whatever we can think they can think too.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by tsarkar »

Viv,

It is proven for strike that missiles are cheaper for longer ranged missions, while fighters are cheaper for medium and short ranged missions. While detailed studies are available, I’ll use the following rule of thumb calculation for supporting the above fact.

A 34500 kg Su-30MKI burns 9640 kg fuel to carry two R-27ER1 & two R-73E missiles (total 910 kg – 350 x 2 + 105 x 2), launch them at 1500 km and return home.

Source: http://sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/su30mk/lth/

The same payload of 900 kg can be delivered by two tomahawks weighing 1440 kg at 2500 km range. Some 1000 km more than the Sukhoi.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BGM-109_Tomahawk

The results are evident. You burn more fuel and use expensive electronics carrying 34500 kg of aircraft than two 1440 kg missiles delivering the same amount of explosives.

The benefit of a fighter is flexibility – a plane in the air can multitask. A missile has a limited role.

That is why the entire Los Angeles, Ticonderoga with 122 VLS and Arleigh Burke class with 90 VLS were equipped with Tomahawk and the B-52 with AGM-86. They became primary strike force in the 90s rather than USAF and USN carrier based fighters that were used for medium/short ranged missions.

NRao,

I only get only this result when I use the quote button.

[quote]For heaven's sake please use the "quote' button. It is very hard reading your posts.[/quote]

Anyways, this is off topic here, I guess I need lessons - maybe in the newbie thread :-) it’s never too late to learn.

To close out this conversation, my PoV is that heavier munitions greatly decrease a fighter's primary advantage, namely flexibility and agility. Hence Brahmos on Sukhoi or Ra'ad on Mirage represents a risky experiment. Time will tell whether this experiment is successful or not, even though it does give some degree of strategic strike capabilities to nations like India and Pakistan that don’t have any strategic conventional strike platforms.

Lastly, Brahmos, Nirbhay, Babar or Ra'ad will never have nuclear warheads. The first one is short legged while last three are too slow for effective deterrence. In a deterrence mission, the longer it takes to strike, the more vulnerable the system is to interception. That is why aircraft based deterrence and subsonic cruise missile based deterrence is losing favour. That is why nuclear Tomahawks and AGM-129 ACM were decommissioned. Nuclear deterrence role will be handled by ballistic missiles – or hypersonic cruise missiles longer legged and with better payload than Brahmos.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by NRao »

tsarkar,

I hope you are known to the Indian strategic establishment or make sure that you introduce yourself to them the next time you cross paths.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Viv S »

tsarkar wrote:Viv,

It is proven for strike that missiles are cheaper for longer ranged missions, while fighters are cheaper for medium and short ranged missions. While detailed studies are available, I’ll use the following rule of thumb calculation for supporting the above fact.

A 34500 kg Su-30MKI burns 9640 kg fuel to carry two R-27ER1 & two R-73E missiles (total 910 kg – 350 x 2 + 105 x 2), launch them at 1500 km and return home.

Source: http://sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/su30mk/lth/

The same payload of 900 kg can be delivered by two tomahawks weighing 1440 kg at 2500 km range. Some 1000 km more than the Sukhoi.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BGM-109_Tomahawk

The results are evident. You burn more fuel and use expensive electronics carrying 34500 kg of aircraft than two 1440 kg missiles delivering the same amount of explosives.
I believe an fighter borne alternative to the cruise missile would be PGMs like the Paveways or JDAMs. Using AAMs makes it an apples to oranges comparison.

We don't have a cost estimate for the Nirbhay, so I'll take the Tomahawk for comparison.

Tactical Tomahawk-

Cost of missile: $700,000
Payload: 450kg warhead


Fighter-

2 x Paveway IV

Cost: $70,000
Payload: 2 x 240kg

GBU-31 JDAM

Cost:- $70,000
Payload: 900kg

Fuel cost: 9 tons @ $700/ton = $6,300
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shiv »

tsarkar wrote: I only get only this result when I use the quote button.

Look for a list below the box in which you type your reply. Uncheck the choice "disable bbcode"

Then your post, quoted unchanged by me will look as it does.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by NRao »

Prowling the net, found:

Taurus (Germany/Spain): 2005 :: 1400 Kgs :: Over 500 Kms :: Typhoon, Tornado, Gripen, F/A-18
Strom Shadow (France/UK/Italy/Greece/UAE): 2002 :: 1230 Kgs :: Over 250 Kms :: Tornado GR4, Italian Tornado IDS, Eurofighter Typhoon, Nimrod MRA4, Mirage 2000, Rafale
Delilah (Israel): 1995 :: 250 Kgs :: 250 Kms :: Helis, Aircrafts, ground and sea

Pak and Chicom not included.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Craig Alpert »

Singha
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

taurus had the advantage germany could off-the-shelf buy a williams intl micro-turbofan. all the US cruise missiles have engines by williams.
hopefully for nirbhay we could fund the kh555 engine purchase , tot and further enhancements.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by tsarkar »

Viv, while your calculations are quite correct, we need to consider other things.

The cost of a sortie includes -
• airframe life, (2-4 hours of the 3000 flight hours. Cost arrived at dividing airframe cost by hours)
• radar life (say 2-4 hours of the 200 hours radar life)
• engine life (2-4 hours of the 1500 hours)
• Other parts costs
• Maintenance costs

So using a fighter for long range strike puts an expensive plane in harm’s way. A pilot trained for 3 years + experience accrued cannot be replaced with any amount of money during war.

The following criteria is typically used. For fixed & defined targets like radar site, ATC, airfields, missiles are much better. For undefined targets or targets of opportunity, like well hidden HAS, fuel bowsers, etc, aircraft will perform much better.

Ofcourse, 5-10 years back, we didn’t have any cruise missiles, hence we were forced to use fighters for such missions.

NRao, there are better minds than mine at work on this. I was “written off” long back.

Thanks Shiv, works now.
shiv wrote:
tsarkar wrote: I only get only this result when I use the quote button.
Look for a list below the box in which you type your reply. Uncheck the choice "disable bbcode"
Then your post, quoted unchanged by me will look as it does.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by prabhug »

Will CM be a effective tools for DEAD operations(particularly s300 type airdefense) and deep striking of high valued targets.My two cents
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by narayana »

tsarkar wrote: So using a fighter for long range strike puts an expensive plane in harm’s way. A pilot trained for 3 years + experience accrued cannot be replaced with any amount of money during war.

tsarkar sir,will the pilot have only one job,just to deliver the CM and return back?,forgive me i m not a expert,i think launching a ALCM will be one of the tasks that will be assigned to the pilot.

regarding the use of cruise missiles,US used more than 1000 Toma Hawk missiles on a small country like iraq during the Gulf war,but the air sorties were much more effective.

IMHO
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

and nothing has been heard much about expensive failures like JASSM and that underachiever known as ATACMS (though pix exist of it being fired in d-day in iraq)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shiv »

Su 30s overflying Myanmar and Laos will have to fly 1500 km to put them in Brahmos striking range of Chinese shipping and ports on Hainan Island. A 1000 Km cruise missile will put Hong Kong and Macau within range. This is one way to upset the string of pears applecart.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by tsarkar »

Narayana - I didn’t understand the query, but will try to answer based on the extent of what I understood.

A pilot is trained for multiple tasks. Similarly, aircraft today are multirole. However, typically aircraft don’t undertake multiple roles in the same mission.

Example being Mirage 2000 being equally adept in A2A and A2G roles, however during Kargil they flew only A2G with A2A cover provided by MiG-29.

Now someone might argue that a Mirage can carry an ALTIS pod and BGL bombs as well as Super 530D missiles, so could drop bombs at Tiger Hill and then polish off F-16’s at BVR range.

However, in practice, aircraft are wired for specific missions and might not perform another mission optimally. With an A2G load, the aircraft might not perform A2A satisfactorily.

Most importantly, the pilot & WSO typically focus on a specific mission profile at any point of time and develop efficiencies and competencies. Using pilots for multiple roles at the same point of time does not lead to proficiency in a specific role.

A person may know Cobol or Java, but typically used exclusively for Cobol or Java projects. Simultaneously using the resource for Cobol & Java may render him less proficient than a resource doing only Cobol or Java at that point of time.

Hence Mirage 2000 didn’t simultaneously do A2A and A2G in Kargil. This applies to whole squadrons and wings. For example, even though Typhoon is a multirole aircraft, Luftwaffe JG73 carries out training roles, JG71 carries out strike roles while JG74 carries out air defence roles.

What multiroles allow is quick turnaround. A strike wing, after three weeks of training and rewiring, could undertake A2A roles.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by NRao »

prabhug wrote:Will CM be a effective tools for DEAD operations(particularly s300 type airdefense) and deep striking of high valued targets.
Indian air force orders Harop loitering munitions

Should be in India in 2011.

There should be plenty of options in Indian planners hands to deal with different types of situations.

But, what this combo (of MKI + Nirbhay) brings to the table is a very long range strike without taking what can be viewed as a escalation by relying on a long range missile (Agnis). Note that a war would have to mature to resort to such a package. And with the fruition of this package there should be no doubt that the IAF would train for the use of this package under all circumstances - failure not being an option.

With great improvements on CEP and the selective recognition of targets such combos are good "next steps" in reducing the chances of going to war. Deterrence!! (Oh that word again.)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Carl_T »

Regarding putting an expensive plane in harms way, isn't it better than putting a more expensive ship in harms way though?

Secondly, the idea of planes specializing in different tasks makes sense, but is it not possible for a formation to have say - 2 planes dediacted to launching CMS, and 2-3 for ground attack, and 5-6 for A2A? That's just an arbitrary example.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by NRao »

Carl_T wrote:Regarding putting an expensive plane in harms way, isn't it better than putting a more expensive ship in harms way though?
"expensive" as compare to what?

I am dead sure that such thinking has already gone into the equation. No two ways about that.

Having said that I can only suspect that such missile systems being invested in by India SEEM to have some amount of commonality in them that provides reassurance to planners AND those who have to think of funding such systems. I would like to think that - as an example - the "seekers" and the software that made the Brahmos hit very selective targets in a cluttered urban environment has made it to the Nirbhay too AND that the success of that seeker has probably let the designers of the Nirbhay sleep well at night.

"expensive"ness has also to be seen in terms of escalation in a war. I am inclined to believe that the Nirbhay provides a very good option to the medium ranged Agni (II or III?). An Agni could send a totally different message during a war than a Nirbhay. ASSUMING that both are "successful" - granted they have their own risks (for use), but it is a computed risk.
Secondly, the idea of planes specializing in different tasks makes sense, but is it not possible for a formation to have say - 2 planes dediacted to launching CMS, and 2-3 for ground attack, and 5-6 for A2A? That's just an arbitrary example.
IMVVVHO, technologies have advanced so far that most of our thinking from 5 years ago is passe. Just saw a USN talk about the F-18s multi role capabilities. That plane, if I am to believe that guy - is a great combo of two air crafts from some 10-15 years ago. BUT, a Nirbhay trip is neither a F or a typical A trip. A MKI hosting a Nirbhay has a more profound - either major tactical or even a strategic - role. I just do not think we can compare such a task to that of a M2K dealing with Kargil type issues or driving away F-16s from PakiLand to A'stan - which are ALL very valid in their own right.

I would like to suggest that the first "region" that such systems bring under control is the IOR - as defined by the IN currently. Once that is under control, then, we can talk about the more immediate "regions" that Shiv talks about. (These pearls we talk of should actually be removed using politics. That would be more cost effective I would think. They should never come into existence.)

But, this discussion about A2A and A2G has some relevance for sure, but in a Nirbhay case it is not as pronounced as in when dealing with other situations. I would hope that in a Nirbhay run a A2G or A2A would be as minimal as possible - with others doing that dirty work, not the plane with the Nirbhay on it.

???? Comments ????
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kartik »

tsarkar wrote: A pilot is trained for multiple tasks. Similarly, aircraft today are multirole. However, typically aircraft don’t undertake multiple roles in the same mission.

Example being Mirage 2000 being equally adept in A2A and A2G roles, however during Kargil they flew only A2G with A2A cover provided by MiG-29.

Now someone might argue that a Mirage can carry an ALTIS pod and BGL bombs as well as Super 530D missiles, so could drop bombs at Tiger Hill and then polish off F-16’s at BVR range.

However, in practice, aircraft are wired for specific missions and might not perform another mission optimally. With an A2G load, the aircraft might not perform A2A satisfactorily.

Most importantly, the pilot & WSO typically focus on a specific mission profile at any point of time and develop efficiencies and competencies. Using pilots for multiple roles at the same point of time does not lead to proficiency in a specific role.

A person may know Cobol or Java, but typically used exclusively for Cobol or Java projects. Simultaneously using the resource for Cobol & Java may render him less proficient than a resource doing only Cobol or Java at that point of time.

Hence Mirage 2000 didn’t simultaneously do A2A and A2G in Kargil. This applies to whole squadrons and wings. For example, even though Typhoon is a multirole aircraft, Luftwaffe JG73 carries out training roles, JG71 carries out strike roles while JG74 carries out air defence roles.

What multiroles allow is quick turnaround. A strike wing, after three weeks of training and rewiring, could undertake A2A roles.
Correction- Mirages didn't just fly A2G during Kargil. They were escorted by Mirages carrying 530Ds upto a certain point (can't remember which sector), which meant Mirages were tasked with A2A as well. It was just that the MiG-29s flying from Srinagar did the CAP and escort role once Mirages were in the Kargil sector. What Mirages apparently didn't do was self-escort- i.e carry 530D semi-active missiles when being tasked for the A2G role. So in a sense you're right that they didn't carry out both A2A and A2G roles in the same mission. That will however be possible to change when the Mirages go through the -5 Mk2 upgrade.

This also doesn't apply for most 4th generation aircraft. The SHornet, F-16 Block 60, Gripen and Rafale are capable of carrying out both air to air and air-to-ground missions in the same sortie without having to land and reconfigure for a different type of mission. The SHornet and F-16 Block 60's radar allows simultaneous A2A and A2G modes to be in operation- the backseater doing the A2G role while the pilot does the A2A role. They are also capable of being armed for both A2A and A2G operations during the same mission and are capable of doing that. The Typhoon with its mechanically scanned array Captor radar is at a disadvantage here compared to the PESA and AESA radars on the Rafale, SHornet and F-16 Block 60. That may explain why they train for one primary role and a secondary role like our Mirage units do, but theoretically (and based on a simulated mission on youtube) it is possible to do both A2A and A2G missions on a single sortie on a Typhoon as well.

The Rafale is also particularly impressive in this role as it was able to detect enemy Air Defence systems as well without any additional ARM detection equipment and could have neutralised them using AASMs even while it was not a part of the original mission - during the ATLC exercise in the UAE, the French detachment commander in AFM magazine said that 1 Rafale (2nd of a 4-ship flight) fired off 3 MICA BVR missiles and 6 AASM air to ground PGMs within 1 minutes and 6 seconds flat.

I don't see why a Su-30MKI armed with PGMs or dumb bombs as well as R-77s and R-73s cannot carry out both A2A and A2G roles in the same mission. the BARS radar may not have simultaneous modes (or it may, I may be corrected) but that doesn't mean that it cannot switch from a dedicated A2A mode to a A2G mode while in flight.
Kakarat
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kakarat »

REVEALED! Indian UCAV Is A Tongue-Twister: She's Called The "IUSAP" - LiveFist

Revealed possibly for the first time here on LiveFist, India's proposed unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV) is being developed under what is called Programme AURA (Autonomous Unmanned Research Aircraft) and the prototype technology demonstrator being conceptualised goes by the working title Indian Unmanned Strike Aircraft (IUSA) or Indian Unmanned Strike Aircraft Programme (IUSAP). The Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) and Agency (ADA) are currently conducting a feasibility study of two UCAV designs and expects to freeze a concept in 2011. The National Aeronautics Laboratory is also involved in the concept study of the IUSA. While the Nishant and Rustom UAVs have been publicly shown before, the Defence Ministry has asked ADA to keep the IUSAP classified and out of sight as far as possible. I've been told by sources that the first demonstrator is likely to be an all composite swept-wing model, though a lot of design elements haven't been frozen just yet.
VinodTK
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by VinodTK »

NAL plans new design for its small aircraft
The RTA was envisaged as a 70-90 seat civilian aircraft powered by a turboprop engine—a gas turbine engine used to drive a propeller.

But NAL is now thinking of using a jet engine as well and increasing its capacity to 90-110 passengers.
Gilles
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Gilles »

Did anyone ever see how 140 soldiers can be loaded into an Il-76 ? It's pretty interesting.

Image

Image

Here is an Ukrainian IL-76 with the upper deck installed:

Image

Does the IAF use that removable upper deck option ?
Singha
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

I have never seen IA paras dropping out of IL76...always seems to be waves of AN32.

this arrangement doesnt look comfortable for anything beyond a 1hr flight.
Dmurphy
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Dmurphy »

Singha wrote:I have never seen IA paras dropping out of IL76...always seems to be waves of AN32.
Didn't we do it during our recent exercise with the Amrikis? It was the Garuds i think.

Added later:
The Special Forces of IAF Garuds and Special Operations Forces from SOFPAC (Sp. Op. Forces Pacific Air Command) participated in joint operation in simulated situation and were paradropped from An32, C130H, C130J, IL76 and C-17 aircraft.
Link
rohitvats
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by rohitvats »

Gilles, AFAIK, the troops carrying capacity of IL-76 is higher than 140. There is an instance quoted in one of the articles on BR (about IL-76 from No.44 Squadron) where three IL-76 were used to airlift an Infantry Battalion. That is close 800 troops.

126 is the number of paratroopers which the IL-76 can carry.
Last edited by rohitvats on 28 May 2010 13:48, edited 1 time in total.
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