Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

[vina]

Continuing on my previous post about engine, for those mechanically inclined check out this nice video Opoc Engine , how it works .

A nice German accented Prof giving gyan (just like it was in the Madrassa in the old days, the mannerisms are exactly the same) and also listen to the Tardec guy on what the US Army plans to do with it and what they have done in terms of testbeds . Also illuminating is the problems he says of the power pack under armor, ie, heat rejection and the consequent need for large cooling packs . Now wasnt that a problem with the Arjun and when they put in a large cooling pack , the gun couldn't depress to the fullest over the rear and the Army Jarnails went ballistic ?

[srai]

Here are some likely possibilities for FICV design influences that will be proposed by the 4 companies:

1. Indian Design influence -> DRDO's Abhay ICV

2. Russian Design influence -> BMP-3

3. European Design influences -> CV90 or the Puma IFV or the ASCOD AFV

4. American Design influences -> FCS - XM1206 Infantry Carrier Vehicle or the GCV Infantry Fighting Vehicle

[rahulm]

For tank engines, form factor is an issue with existing civilian engines, as also, multi fuel capability.

For the ICV there are indigenous options available and a Greaves -MWM prime mover has been chosen.This engine possibly has the most compact form factor of all engines available in India for the power it develops. A version of this engine was also retrofitted successfully on a BEML- TATRA chassis but I don't know how this story ended.

[D Roy]

Going into the future ,
we need to seriously start looking at co-generation or even tri-generation

Also there needs to be a focus on micro turbines to power up certain systems on the vehicle.

[chackojoseph]

Lets face it, that additional order for 124 tanks was more of a sympathy order from the DGMF than that out of want.

How do you know that?

[pralay]

Yes, the Arjun must have outperformed the T-90 in the trials but 124 is hardly a number which shows DGMF's desire. And whatever happened to the "we need an order for a minimum of 500 tanks to break even"? 248 is the magic figure now?

Perhaps the biggest lesson they ought to have learnt from the Arjun farce is never count your chickens before they hatch and unless they plan to spend another 20 years on proving to the army "look, we can do this, look we can do that" and then wailing for orders, we're paying to embarrass ourselves again. All that when they barely managed to push 248 tanks down the army's throat since 1972. What confidence!

Murphy saar if you agree that arjun must have performed better than tin-90s then why don't you bash the army/MoD for not purchasing good product in strong numbers? Why bash DRDO even though they have developed a superior product ?

if it is army/MoD not purchasing proven and better products how can you blame that on DRDO ?
DRDO is not a marketing agency

[Nihat]

perhaps Army's main Issue was the weight of Arjun , directly impacting its mobility which in tirn limites its areas of operations to deserts and plains.

[Rahul M]

please, for how long will we parrot these uninformed statements ? there is no place that the t-series can go where arjun can't. but the reverse is NOT true.

[Dmurphy]

Murphy saar if you agree that arjun must have performed better than tin-90s then why don't you bash the army/MoD for not purchasing good product in strong numbers? Why bash DRDO even though they have developed a superior product ?

Read my post again, carefully.You've got me all wrong. I've not bashed the DRDO for making a superior tank in Arjun. I'm just curious to know how they could be so confident of getting the Army to use their FMBT when they couldn't get them to buy Arjun (which in your own words was a "good product")

if it is army/MoD not purchasing proven and better products how can you blame that on DRDO ?

My qualms are with the DRDO having decided on spending billions on developing a tank which has no guarantee of being accepted by the end user in the end. Sounds more like a precursor to another Arjun saga. How do you know, for example, that the project will not get delayed for whatever reason and that the Army will not do a volte face and not settle in for a firangi brand and not design their tactics around it? And when the FMBT is finally complete, the DGMF will buy just 124 pieces to calm the PSU down and may be even extend the order by another 124 if enough dust is kicked up after a very public, comprehensive comparative trials - saying it doesn't fit into their designs anymore?

DRDO is not a marketing agency

Well, truth be told, for the later part of this decade, they have been just that!

[Dmurphy]

Lets face it, that additional order for 124 tanks was more of a sympathy order from the DGMF than that out of want.

How do you know that?

Chacko sir, for a force boasting of more than 2500 tanks and also needing to soon replace/augment a sizable portion of it, an order for 124 + 124 tanks - a tank which has been in the development for multiple decades, tailor made for our conditions, doesn't sound like a match winner to me. Who're we kidding? The DRDO has itself asked for a minimum order of 500 tanks, only to break even and they're just gonna have to do with just half of it. Only just.

[Viv S]

My qualms are with the DRDO having decided on spending billions on developing a tank which has no guarantee of being accepted by the end user in the end.

Billions? The Arjun's development AFAIK costed <350 crores which is approximately $76 million. Even if we scale that upto $100 million or more after adjusting for inflation, its was still worth the valuable experience gained by DRDO in designing and building armored vehicles.

[uddu]

The thread is getting derailed like the Gyaneshwari express. The deal of 124 Arjun MK1's + the new order of 124 MK1's means the Army will have 248 Arjun MK1's. The work on the Arjun MKII is ongoing and after the first lot of MKI's are inducted it's going to be the Arjun MKII's production until the FMBT arrives.

[uddu]

I'm just curious to know how they could be so confident of getting the Army to use their FMBT when they couldn't get them to buy Arjun (which in your own words was a "good product")

The Army is buying more Arjun's after it has performed better than the T-90. You will see further orders with the Arjun MK-II (going to be a huge one). Sometimes an intermediately order for further 124 MK1 tanks may also be placed.

My qualms are with the DRDO having decided on spending billions on developing a tank which has no guarantee of being accepted by the end user in the end. Sounds more like a precursor to another Arjun saga. How do you know, for example, that the project will not get delayed for whatever reason and that the Army will not do a volte face and not settle in for a firangi brand and not design their tactics around it? And when the FMBT is finally complete, the DGMF will buy just 124 pieces to calm the PSU down and may be even extend the order by another 124 if enough dust is kicked up after a very public, comprehensive comparative trials - saying it doesn't fit into their designs anymore?

It's not necessary that mistakes will be repeated again and again. This time the Army is also onboard and DRDO is not taking any risks by promising the moon like the electromagnetic gun. It can be fitted when the technology matures rather than wait for it. So this time the chances of a success is far higher and less pessimism.

[chackojoseph]

Chacko sir, for a force boasting of more than 2500 tanks and also needing to soon replace/augment a sizable portion of it, an order for 124 + 124 tanks - a tank which has been in the development for multiple decades, tailor made for our conditions, doesn't sound like a match winner to me. Who're we kidding? The DRDO has itself asked for a minimum order of 500 tanks, only to break even and they're just gonna have to do with just half of it. Only just.

Ok. I was trying figure if someone told you.

Actually that is not right. 124 + 124 figures were existing long before. Its a planned intake. IIRC, I even saw an open source on this some time back. Some book or Mag? I don't remember.

See, its just not possible to take add'l Arjuns without long lead planning.

You must be wondering where is all the newspaper reports coming from on "will not take more," "we will tell DRDO that this is last" etc. I will write when safe to write.

[Austin]

So finally the IA has spec'd for a 50T FMBT with better mobility may be then with a 3 man crew and autoloader

[Singha]

while I dont have a strong opinion about the engine, I have a real fetish for a MMW radar mounted on a telescoping mast while NIFV is hull down and Nag-mmw future version fired in salvos at enemy tanks from behind the leading lines of indic tanks to add to the pressure. direct LOS fire from tanks and top attack from Nags in parallel.

onlee thing is some IFF system will be mandated to avoid smacking our own tanks!

[Dmurphy]

My qualms are with the DRDO having decided on spending billions on developing a tank which has no guarantee of being accepted by the end user in the end.

Billions? The Arjun's development AFAIK costed <350 crores which is approximately $76 million. Even if we scale that upto $100 million or more after adjusting for inflation, its was still worth the valuable experience gained by DRDO in designing and building armored vehicles.

I was referring to the development cost of FMBT. Per the Ajai Shukla article, it should be around Rs. 5000 crores.

[Surya]

as long as they request a 50 ton tank with protection features of a 50 ton tank.

[trushant]

Vina saar...it does makes sense for Tatas to tap into their portfolio of truck engines which includes Cummins range, Tata-home grown, Daewoo range and what not. There were reports that DRDO was considering a switch to Cummins engines for Arjuns as part of increasing locally-made/assembled content.

Its correct. DRDO did consider switching to Cummins Engine ...QST30 to be specific...12 Cylinders in Vee config...but that initiative has been shelved ...some issues with the application engineering part IIRC

[Dmurphy]

The Army is buying more Arjun's after it has performed better than the T-90. You will see further orders with the Arjun MK-II (going to be a huge one). Sometimes an intermediately order for further 124 MK1 tanks may also be placed.

Ahem! Indian MoD comments various defence and security issues

Arjun Tanks

The Indian Army is placing an order for 124 Arjun Tanks Mark – II in addition to the equal number of Mark – I ordered earlier. Tank T-90, Tank T-72, and Arjun tanks are all main battle tanks of the Indian Army.

So the follow on order after the comparative trials for 124 more Arjuns was in fact for Mark 2. So what it means is, the tank that took part in those trials and trumped the T-90 is not the one which is being ordered! And the order is not a "huge one"

[Drishyaman]

Without speculating about the DRDO FMBT, I feel what the ARJUN Mark 2 needs desperately is an indigenous 1500 HP engine, auto loader and sloping turret and that too within next 2-3 yrs.

I am not sure if the GURUS would agree

[Karan M]

So the follow on order after the comparative trials for 124 more Arjuns was in fact for Mark 2. So what it means is, the tank that took part in those trials and trumped the T-90 is not the one which is being ordered! And the order is not a "huge one"

Its expected more Mk2 will be ordered

[Dmurphy]

FWIW, Prasun Sengupta once mentioned that the DRDO's FMBT will be based on Tank-Ex

[Austin]

I would expect Mk2 order to be any where between 124 to max 248 in two batches so total order for Arjun will be ~ 500 in best case.

It is interesting to know that FMBT will be around ~ 50T which probably means the IA is satisfied with the protection level offered by ~46T T-90 , the goal for FMBT to me seems focused on mobility,transportability and firepower with reasonable protection much like the T's and the logistics that have been built around the T's and less on Western style heavy but well protected tanks.

[Surya]

It is interesting to know that FMBT will be around ~ 50T which probably means the IA is satisfied with the protection level offered by ~46T T-90 , the goal for FMBT to me seems focused on mobility,transportability and firepower with reasonable protection

only if the actual requirements state a protection level available from a 50 ton tank. if it does not thenwe are back to square one.


hopefully at least modular armour is being considered

[Austin]

Well Ajai Shukla report states FMBT project is different from Arjun and he has quoted SA

For the first time, the DRDO has outlined the FMBT project’s contours. Talking exclusively to Business Standard, DRDO chief and Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister, V K Saraswat, revealed, “While the Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) has been handed over to private industry, the DRDO will develop the FMBT. We need about seven-eight years from the time the project is formally sanctioned. The army and the DRDO have already identified the major features of the FMBT, which are quite different from the Arjun. While the Arjun is a 60-tonne tank, the FMBT will be lighter… about 50 tonnes. It will be a highly mobile tank.”

[Drishyaman]

FWIW, Prasun Sengupta once mentioned that the DRDO's FMBT will be based on Tank-Ex

Any source for the same...?

Dmurphy Sir !! This seems to be a bright idea. It will actually cut on cost and will save the time from re-inventing the wheel again. At max 50 % re engineering (speculating here..) of the Ex-Tank will meet the requirement of FMBT.

God Knows !! if the IA will be ok with that or not...only time will say.

[Igorr]

For the first time, the DRDO has outlined the FMBT project’s contours. Talking exclusively to Business Standard, DRDO chief and Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister, V K Saraswat, revealed, “While the Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) has been handed over to private industry, the DRDO will develop the FMBT. We need about seven-eight years from the time the project is formally sanctioned. The army and the DRDO have already identified the major features of the FMBT, which are quite different from the Arjun. While the Arjun is a 60-tonne tank, the FMBT will be lighter… about 50 tonnes. It will be a highly mobile tank.”

- It's what I always said: the current trend in tank design is to reduce the MBT weight, using prospective ERA for that, an autoloader, max 3 members crew, relative low profile (FRance, SKo, Japan). 60+t tanks are rather for defense anti-tank purpose (Cold War legacy in Western Europe) coz their have low strategic mobility. The future tank must have a potential for deep invasion and transportation with quick reaction forces.

[rohitvats]

<SNIP>

60+t tanks are rather for defense anti-tank purpose (Cold War legacy in Western Europe) coz their have low strategic mobility. The future tank must have a potential for deep invasion and transportation with quick reaction forces.

yy

Can you explain what is meant by "Strategic Mobility"? And how an M1A2 or a Leopard cannot be Strategically mobile while T-XX can be?

[Philip]

Let the DRDO first master the technologies that it hasn't done,with Arjun,namely the engine and sensors,metallurgy,etc.,which make a mockery of saying that the Arjun is a total "indigenous" product,before starting to design an FMBT.Unless the IA is taken aboard right from the outset,it is going to be another costly delayed adventure judging from our proven track record.In fact,I would prefer a JV with a foreign manufacturer with clear areas demarcated where Indian and foreign expertise will deliver,if only so that the project will arrive on time and be also manufactured easily.We've seen this happen with JVs like Brahmos,where both sides have to prove themselves to their respective countries and the end user.If it is solely a desi project,the limitless expenditure and "allowable" that can be obtained from a GOI for the sake of "national prestige",like the CWG will ensure zero accountability and the project will suffer like the second-wife's child!

However,as Igorr has pointed out,and I've stated before,the trend worldwide is for smaller MBTs,with smaller crews,greater automation,tanks that can be swiftly and easily transported and fight in any theatre.These attributes are perhaps why the IA does not see Arjun as an MBT for the future.Having a competition for a desi ICV between desi companies only is a good step in the right direction.Let us "walk" before we can "run".

[Viv S]

Let the DRDO first master the technologies that it hasn't done,with Arjun,namely the engine and sensors,metallurgy,etc.,which make a mockery of saying that the Arjun is a total "indigenous" product,before starting to design an FMBT.

Do we need an FMBT? Are any of our present or potential adversaries going to be fielding an armored vehicle that's a generation ahead of the current types? What capability is this 'futuristic' tank going to field that an Arjun MkIII can't?

However,as Igorr has pointed out,and I've stated before,the trend worldwide is for smaller MBTs,with smaller crews,greater automation,tanks that can be swiftly and easily transported and fight in any theatre.

I've heard a few tank officers (albeit the older generation) express similar views. Thankfully that attitude is slowly changing. The basic premise underlying that argument is that light tanks are more mobile. And anyone familiar with the Abrams, Leopard-2, Challenger-2 or Merkava will tell you, that is just plain wrong. Smaller crew? Might not be a bad idea. Worth looking into. Smoothbore main gun? No reason to dismiss the idea entirely. Lighter tank? No. Not with the proliferation of larger and heavier APFSDS rounds globally.

That ofcourse doesn't imply research into tank technologies should cease. If standard ERA and RHAe can be replaced with electromagnetic armour or some similar 'future-tech', leading to a reduced weight, very good. But, to plan from the outset for a light weight vehicle to the exclusion of a heavy MBT, is a recipe for yet another blunder.

[Surya]

However,as Igorr has pointed out,and I've stated before,the trend worldwide is for smaller MBTs,

sigh

How many of these small MBTs have seen action??

what has been the result??



and K2 is 55 tons. the japanese plan to use modular armour - so even they know that if they ever see serious combat - they will need to up the protection.

so pretty much the fact is that tin can protection will not do once you get into the battlefield else why stop at 44 tons - hell go down to BMP levels

[Rahul M]

japan's MBT weight is limited by road restrictions. the MBT project is more of a technology maintenance program for them than fielding a machine that is actually expected to fight in a war.

[Kanson]

It is interesting to know that FMBT will be around ~ 50T which probably means the IA is satisfied with the protection level offered by ~46T T-90 , the goal for FMBT to me seems focused on mobility,transportability and firepower with reasonable protection much like the T's and the logistics that have been built around the T's and less on Western style heavy but well protected tanks.

I think a better explanation can be given. DRDO chief stressed on the miniaturisation in FMBT. When the sub-systems are miniaturised, naturally the volume of the tank comes down so the armour volume protecting the tank and the total weight. I guess we can expect ~5 ton reduction from the Arjun weight most possitively. More can be done based on the tech development over the time.

[ParGha]

Igorr,

For India tank mobility is more of an operational problem than a strategic problem given the geopgraphic layout of the country, unlike Russia. However for India fueling the tank fleet is a MAJOR strategic problem, again unlike Russia. Also IN artillery:armor ratio is a shadow of what RU operates under, so it brings up a different operational problem. And IN has no manpower problems (atleast at the professional enlisted and NCO ranks) so a high degree of maintenence-intensive automatization is unnecessary, unlike RU. Different pros and cons. This is not to say one tank is better than another, but simply to note how the same considerations have different levels of priorities for different users.

[ParGha]

Surya,
How many of the heavy MBT operators have had to contend with the strategic problem of having to transport a tank army across all of Asia, possibly from Urkranian borders to Manchuria, on rails? The Russians knew what they were doing and why they were doing it. It is a different issue that India doesn't have the same strategic problem to worry about. The lesson to learn here is how well the Russians have kept focus on their real weaknesses and threats, and how they have worked to fix them. India too will be better off identifying ITS unique challenges and addressing them, rather than simply look up to Abrams, Leo etc as the trend to follow.

[nachiket]

This red herring of "Strat-e-gic Mobility" has been used against the Arjun project by all and sundry including the Army (and of course the usual suspects on BRF ) all the while pushing for imaginary T-xx tanks, russian collaboration and what not.
IMHO, before the FMBT project is sanctioned, somebody needs to come up with specific and detailed reasons why an upgraded version of Arjun Mk-1 is inadequate/unacceptable while the tank which it outperformed is being merrily inducted.

[Surya]

ow many of the heavy MBT operators have had to contend with the strategic problem of having to transport a tank army across all of Asia, possibly from Urkranian borders to Manchuria, on rails? The Russians knew what they were doing and why they were doing it. It is a different issue that India doesn't have the same strategic problem to worry about. The lesson to learn here is how well the Russians have kept focus on their real weaknesses and threats, and how they have worked to fix them. India too will be better off identifying ITS unique challenges and addressing them, rather than simply look up to Abrams, Leo etc as the trend to follow.

Pargha -

but whats the point of getting it to the other end and then have it blown up by folks running around with masses of hand held weapons???

Agree that we have to look for our own unique solution
So I agree we do not need to make 70 - 80 tons like the israeli monsters but neither do I see 50 ton machines surviving for long.

[vishnu.nv]

Philip,

You have said that the world trend is for smaller and mobile tanks. Please Could you give one program as example?

I am no master in armored vehicles. The open source info i get daily from news reports suggest the other way.

The Future US IFV programs are of 60-70 tonnes, which they want to reduce weight as possible.

The US is not having a future tank program, Interesting. The point to be noted is that they are getting all the building blocks for future tank getting ready like electromagnetic guns. Now it wont be a problem to create a prototype by combining the techs.

In India what we do is to define the project first and try to get the techs developed within time frame. This approach is also not bad the negative being the ideal time between the projects. This was what happened with all our major programs. But the second generation programs will be much better as we have the basic tech available.

Along with new development the futuristic technologies should be explored to a max so that later we can have these technologies offered as upgrades. US TUSK upgrade program is a example. The T-70 upgrade program was also good.

[ShivaS]

Well now we ned to fund DRDO on two important projects

1) Advanced Light Battle Tank (ALBT).

2) Advanced Heavy Battle Tank (AHBT)

The project teams will be located next to each other accross in separate buildings.

But will top secret that each will not communicate with other.

The problem for 1 is how to reduce weight

The problem for 2 is how to increase weight using light weight alloys which can withstand armor piercing rounds.

Both will contract MAN with out the others knowledge.