People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

[TonyMontana]

Just hope that Pakistan or any of its non-state actors do not use any of the China gifted or China assisted nuclear weapons on India. Because that is a point of no return. India would then have to retaliate against both Pakistan and China and probably North Korea as well. The consequences, needless to say, will be devastating for Asia and the world.

Tell you what. When that happenes India can Samson all she wants. Why leave the white fellas out of it? Lob a few their way too. Since India is glassed anyway, you can't let the white man laugh all the way to the bank right?

[archan]

Lets be careful not to make this thread a pissing contest, please. "Nuke this, nuke that" talk does not do any good.

[Hari Seldon]

Lets be careful not to make this thread a pissing contest, please. "Nuke this, nuke that" talk does not do any good.

+1.

And as usual the same agent provocateur, who has contributed little of relevance but has contributed plenty of deflections, diversions and wisecracks, is at the center of this well as well.

Well, actions speak louder than words. That such borderline-trollish-ness is allowed to survive speaks volumes about Yindian tolerance of dissent, openness to even hostile perspective and perhaps, an inherent sense of fairness, I guess. Not that the beneficiaries of doubt will care to listen, of course.

Oh, IMVVHO and other std disclaimers. Admins, kindly delete if inappropriate.

[shiv]

Interesting. So it appears that Indians are innovators...and as always, like in the last few thousand years, Chinese once again have to learn everything from the Indians. We have a lot to catch up on in these fields. I just hope the idiots in Beijing would spend more money in these fields, so one day we could catch up to the Indians.

Well I can see the sarcasm here. In terms of innovation as in "invention" the Chinese have, in past millennia, first used or invented many of the things that eventually led to the industrial revolution in Europe, created colonial powers and eventually subugated China. Perhaps, like India, the Chinese did not have a fascist religious ideology that unites people against aliens, although the Communists are certainly trying something similar now.

Paper, the printing press, the compass and gunpowder all came from China IIRC. Paper and the printing press led to the European renaissance, the compass and gunpowder fed colonial expansion.

I personally don't think China is boxing India in. In fact India has been boxed in by colonial Britain and later the US; Chinese acts are similar to the acts of bigger and older hegemonists in trying to corner and grab resources or influence over nations. It is a mental block, a mental "box" that Indians (who have been married by history to the anglosphere) have to see Chinese actions as more hostile than the flood of hostile acts against India from the west that have virtually turned Indian society into one that is at war with itself. You see how secularism is such a hated word on this forum - but not a chirp of how China is ruthlessly secular. India's are confused about religion and its geopolitical role. What Mao and the later Chicoms did was to ruthlessly remove all needless sentiment about old China for the purpose of a great forward march. Indians remain stuck to sentiment that is a mixture of traditional Indian memes and imposed western memes.

In many ways Indians may be naive. The old excesses against India from the British empire are all forgotten now while we struggle to impress fellow "commonwealth" nations on our ability to build stadia for games. But China that fought a short border war in 1962 and sends stinking farts our way from time to time is seen as a huge threat. I think Indians need a rethink about who is doing what in this world. But these are my views.

[naren]

You should study this chinese game, the westerners called "go". Explains a lot of Chinese actions.

Hmm. Indians did have a game called "Chaturanga". Even before that, Chanakya had his theory of "mandala". Not so surprisingly, the second ring -the "friendly" ring- of Mandala would be Russia, Japan, Vietnam etc.

But then, one has to keep in mind the modern innovations. Its stupid to blindly apply the ancient strategies for current scenarios. For example, Sun Tzu says "never attack the high ground". You only need to look at Kargil war to see how that went.

PS: strategy onlee, no p!$$ing contest here.

[archan]

Lets be careful not to make this thread a pissing contest, please. "Nuke this, nuke that" talk does not do any good.

+1.

And as usual the same agent provocateur, who has contributed little of relevance but has contributed plenty of deflections, diversions and wisecracks, is at the center of this well as well.

Well, actions speak louder than words. That such borderline-trollish-ness is allowed to survive speaks volumes about Yindian tolerance of dissent, openness to even hostile perspective and perhaps, an inherent sense of fairness, I guess. Not that the beneficiaries of doubt will care to listen, of course.

Oh, IMVVHO and other std disclaimers. Admins, kindly delete if inappropriate.

nah ji, nothing fairness vairness... we probably just enjoy it at times.
These also bring opportunities for some posters to learn a few things I guess...

[shiv]

I think the "Chinese threat" is at least partially due to Indians boxing themselves in with the anglophone world.

The old India died and was suddenly reborn to see the world through the eyes of the dominant English speaking world. Britain has been discarded, but its successor, the US, is largely viewed by Indians as "good" and "positive" and the US view of the world sinks in trough the enormous number of English publications and media that are accessible to a huge number of Indians who count.

We need not see the US as "evil" but if we do accept that the world has more viewpoints - I believe that the Chinese viewpoint will be easier to read. China itself is trying to break free of the highly non benign influence of the powerful anglosphere which has done as much ch**tiyapanti in China as in India. India is a non entity that still hasn't decided whether it belongs to the anglosphere or whether it can stand up as an independent civilization as the Chinese are trying to so. In the angloshpere India's rank is very much that of a disciple, a follower. Indians often don;t even realise when they act and talk like this. there is an automatic alignment with the anglosphere against "evil forces" - communism and China. Will stop here. Wrong therad.

[Pulikeshi]

India's are confused about religion and its geopolitical role. What Mao and the later Chicoms did was to ruthlessly remove all needless sentiment about old China for the purpose of a great forward march. Indians remain stuck to sentiment that is a mixture of traditional Indian memes and imposed western memes.

In many ways Indians may be naive. The old excesses against India from the British empire are all forgotten now while we struggle to impress fellow "commonwealth" nations on our ability to build stadia for games. But China that fought a short border war in 1962 and sends stinking farts our way from time to time is seen as a huge threat. I think Indians need a rethink about who is doing what in this world. But these are my views.

Shiv,

Indian civilization encountered Islamic imperialism and survived.
India civilization encountered Western colonialism and survived.

But for the occasional exuberance of idiocy in youth, India is comfortable with the West.
India understands that to be a global player, one needs to work first within the governance
structures that exists today. Similar to how the INC worked initially as respected
citizens of the British Empire. Eventually, India may see the futility of such a
position and not hesitate to take on alternate position a la Gandhi or Bose.

China's experience of the Mongol with the Yuan dynasty and more recently the Manchu
as the Qing dynasty. The Han have not only paranoid about the 'white devil' but secretly
worship the imperialism and colonialism. Internally, it does not want to ever again lose
control to any external group. Co-optation is not something that comes naturally if all
one has seen is brutal abuse and raw demonstration of power in the past. The way China
deals with Africa and even increasingly South East Asia, if not India or Japan,
has more to do with this experience.

What governance and economic structures has China created and nurtured to pursue policy?
It is one thing to prop a NK or PAK, it is another thing to create NATO, etc.
SCO comes to mind, but again to be a regional power one ought to demonstrate the ability
to organize structures with equally powerful or more powerful states.

Maybe my chiskology is all wrong, but I suspect the following -
China will have the learn the limits of hard power
India will have to learn the limits of soft power

[TonyMontana]

India is a non entity that still hasn't decided whether it belongs to the anglosphere or whether it can stand up as an independent civilization as the Chinese are trying to so.

India should leave the commonwealth.

[krisna]

The Lost Babies Of China's One-Child Policy

Thirty years after it was introduced the Chinese government claims the one-child policy has successfully reined in the country's population, but it has also led to the disappearance of millions of baby girls.

The little girls of Wuxue are not being denied an education. Rather, they simply don't exist. According to official statistics, for every 100 girls there are 197 boys.
It is the worst example of gender imbalance in China, but a similar pattern exists across the country. The cause is an unintended result of the one-child policy: sex selective abortions.

The Chinese government says that three decades of state-controlled family planning has prevented 400 million births, a feat achieved with the threat of heavy fines for extra births and the provision of free contraception.
Abortion - which is largely free of stigma in China - is also encouraged to terminate excess pregnancies.
But a traditional preference for male children and the increasing availability of ultrasound technology have intersected. The result: the widespread use of abortion to guarantee a baby boy, throwing the country's demographics off balance.

By 2020 it is thought there will be 50 million men who cannot find a wife. In a culture where marriage and reproduction are considered the highest moral duties the result is a social time bomb.

Kidnapping of women as brides is already common in China's countryside.

To try to even up the numbers, he government has banned pre-natal sex testing. But the regulation is ignored by many hospitals for which ultrasounds are a lucrative business.

[shiv]

India's are confused about religion and its geopolitical role. What Mao and the later Chicoms did was to ruthlessly remove all needless sentiment about old China for the purpose of a great forward march. Indians remain stuck to sentiment that is a mixture of traditional Indian memes and imposed western memes.

In many ways Indians may be naive. The old excesses against India from the British empire are all forgotten now while we struggle to impress fellow "commonwealth" nations on our ability to build stadia for games. But China that fought a short border war in 1962 and sends stinking farts our way from time to time is seen as a huge threat. I think Indians need a rethink about who is doing what in this world. But these are my views.

Shiv,

Indian civilization encountered Islamic imperialism and survived.
India civilization encountered Western colonialism and survived.

But for the occasional exuberance of idiocy in youth, India is comfortable with the West.

This is one way of saying what India did. Another way of saying it is as follows:

India encountered the Islamic civilization, became slightly Islamized but survived as an entity that was recognizably Indian, and not Islamic, where Islam too could live under Indian rules

India encountered western colonization and became slightly westernized, but survived as a recognizably Indian entity which was comfortable with western civilization

India has influenced Islam and Islam influenced India. India has, and will influence the west as the west has influenced India. The take away lesson here is that no civilization is totally evil and totally discarded by India.

On the other hand both Islamic and western civilizations have generally maintained their hegemony over many areas by and outright rejection of that which is alien, or coexisting with the alien in a subservient position. That is what they did to India and China.

if India is comfortable with the west, it is comfortable with Islam too. Considering China as an evil force in this world without any insight is playing right into the power games of the west whose dogma we subscribe to at our own long term peril. The west plays games with China via India and Indian reactions.

[shiv]

India is a non entity that still hasn't decided whether it belongs to the anglosphere or whether it can stand up as an independent civilization as the Chinese are trying to so.

India should leave the commonwealth.

What India will do is to break it open, change it, but preserve it. The enormous money generating Indian Premier League is only the first example.

[Arihant]

We can get them by engineering loss of face. Engineer enough "loss of face" episodes and the regime starts to teeter on the brink. Happened to the Qing dynasty - defeated by the Japanese, repeatedly humiliated by Western powers, their inability to save face for the Chinese triggered Sun Yat-Sen's rebellion against them.

You're gonna shame the Chinese to death? What?

"but I see these as problems that China need to deal with."

Did you hear the story of the Indian and the Chinese? The Indian says, "In our country, we have the freedom to stand outside the Indian parliament and criticise the Indian prime minister Mr.Singh". The Chinese then says, "We have the same freedom. We can stand outside the presidential building in Beijing and criticise the Indian prime minister Mr.Singh"

Touche! Sir. Well played. Freedom. You got me there. You're right, once again. I humblely retract my statements and apologise for my ignorance.

I hesitate to say this, but user TonyMontana's primary agenda on this forum seems to be "bait" with one-liners, and muddy what might have been a useful discussion.

[RajeshA]

The Anglo-Americans have boxed Indians in mentally. Chinese have boxed Indians in physically.

Trying my hand at some catchy one-liners:

1. "Awareness of one, blinds one to the other"!
2. "Awareness of one, colors the view of the other"!
3. "No amount of red or blue pills, gives you more oxygen"!
4. "The Matrix is all about convincing you that there is a Matrix"!
5. "I'd rather be in Reality pissing everywhere, than be in the Matrix pissing in,"!
6. Love for the Raper, is no protection against AIDS.
7. Mental gymnastics are no help, when your parachute fails.

[Dhiman]

I think the "Chinese threat" is at least partially due to Indians boxing themselves in with the anglophone world.

Sir,

I am not sure whether it is India boxing itself in with the anglophone world or whether it is our practical thinking that has become more western oriented over the last two centuries as a result of direct western rule and then indirect hegemony of last few decades. In either case, my thinking is that as India grows and as its perception changes (barring this commonwealth games fiasco), our cultural thinking which is very much alive (although latent) will again re-emerge and take center stage.

Both India and China are currently in the "catching up" phase, culturally we were subdued and now we are running breathless (more so in case of China). Once the catching up is taken care of, the natural question that will come up is "what's next?" At that point, India, by its very nature, will fall back and bring its cultural thinking into center stage, while as China will seek a path that is new and more fruitful in Chinese opinion because their ancient old path just leads back to India.

We need not see the US as "evil" but if we do accept that the world has more viewpoints - I believe that the Chinese viewpoint will be easier to read. China itself is trying to break free of the highly non benign influence of the powerful anglosphere which has done as much ch**tiyapanti in China as in India.

India is a non entity that still hasn't decided whether it belongs to the anglosphere or whether it can stand up as an independent civilization as the Chinese are trying to so.

But what is the "Chinese viewpoint" these days? I will go as far as saying that whatever Chinese viewpoint was, it died when CCP took over China and when Taiwan slipped under complete western hegemony. China today is like Iran, it ancient culture has been completely replaced by a completely new culture. In case of Iran it happened through Islamic invasions; while as, in case of China it happened through CCP's invasion that Chinese people passively supported (or at least did not oppose). In my opinion, ancient China is as dead as ancient Iran. I am not sure if there is anything the world can learn from modern day China in terms of culture, values, etc. They are simply in a rat race running around with a grudge to prove a point and that is something they will have to think about once they are done all "catching up".

[Dhiman]

China's experience of the Mongol with the Yuan dynasty and more recently the Manchu
as the Qing dynasty. The Han have not only paranoid about the 'white devil' but secretly
worship the imperialism and colonialism. Internally, it does not want to ever again lose
control to any external group. Co-optation is not something that comes naturally if all
one has seen is brutal abuse and raw demonstration of power in the past. The way China
deals with Africa and even increasingly South East Asia, if not India or Japan,
has more to do with this experience.

Belive it or not, if it is one group of people that the Chinese have any love or fond cultural memories of, it is the Indians (because of past cultural contacts). However, CCP, in its greatness, will most likely end up destroying that within the next decade.

[Pratyush]

if India is comfortable with the west, it is comfortable with Islam too. Considering China as an evil force in this world without any insight is playing right into the power games of the west whose dogma we subscribe to at our own long term peril. The west plays games with China via India and Indian reactions.

China is not CCP and CCP is not China. You need to differentiate between the two.
JMT

[PrasadZ]

@Shiv :
"India's are confused about religion and its geopolitical role. What Mao and the later Chicoms did was to ruthlessly remove all needless sentiment about old China for the purpose of a great forward march. Indians remain stuck to sentiment that is a mixture of traditional Indian memes and imposed western memes."
The middle line is an unquestioning acceptance of CPC doctrine, wouldnt ya say ?!
Put yet another way, China accepted a Western doctrine of communism and Chini-fied it. India accepted a Western doctrine of democro-capitalism and Indi-fied it. Both are aiming to reclaim strategic space they lost to Europe. Its only natural they compete for mind space in their neighborhood before they flex their muscles farther abroad. So far, uncontroversial
The demonisation of the CPC arises from its aim to have political control from the shadows. All shadows breed demons, innit?

[naren]

Both India and China are currently in the "catching up" phase, culturally we were subdued and now we are running breathless (more so in case of China). Once the catching up is taken care of, the natural question that will come up is "what's next?" At that point, India, by its very nature, will fall back and bring its cultural thinking into center stage, while as China will seek a path that is new and more fruitful in Chinese opinion because their ancient old path just leads back to India.

+1

It may be a good idea for us to think how we can use this to build a "Dharmic axis", long term, for geopolitical benefits. That is of course after all the short terms faults are ironed out.

China is in fact moving slowly towards Dharma.

[shiv]

The demonisation of the CPC arises from its aim to have political control from the shadows. All shadows breed demons, innit?

Whatever the truth or otherwise of this observation there are some things that follow from it.

1. Demonizing China could mean hating China and fearing it needlessly: the latter is what Indians seem to excel at
2) Demonizing China fits beautifully with the agenda of the west that has no express or hidden intent of giving up its power. If aligning with the west was perfectly benign and effective for us it would be a different issue. But it is not.

So we demonize China, fear China and align with the current western powers who were instrumental in bringing Indian down and keeping India down. We want to fight Islamism, We want to fight China. Many have asked for nuking Mecca as well as China on here. But the west - " Oh they are our friends." This sounds like the thought process of a seriously deluded western poodle of the Banana republic genre. I am surprised to see on this oh so patriotic form the underpinnings of the very worship of the west that the Indian government is accused of fostering. The same west that has played and still plays one off against the other. We are a nation of mental slaves to the west. Underlings to white massa.

[Hari Seldon]

nah ji, nothing fairness vairness... we probably just enjoy it at times.

[RajeshA]

How does one distinguish the two cases?

1. West playing India, to check Chinese influence, and further their own interests.
2. India taking the assistance of West, to push back PRC's anti-India designs.

[Pratyush]

Rajesh

I can't answer the question that you have raised, but will say this;

India will have to be sufficiently rattled if it chooses to play the western game, whether in acting in their interest to check PRC. Or using the west to push the PRC back. In either case it is the Indian fear of the PRC that is the driving factor.

The only way this fear can be controlled and reduced by the PRC if it was to reach an accommodation with the India. But its actions in the near past are not encouraging in this regard.

So regardless of what happnes unless the PRC modifies its behavior WRT India, one of the two scenario raised by you will come to pass.

JMT

[Hari Seldon]

^^ Oh, I have no doubt the goras are upto no good seeking to influence, by hook and by crook, India-China affairs. Perhaps, 26/11 Mumbai was also a ploy to have Dilli swat Izloo and have PRC join the fray in support of its munna, who knows? But Dilli, in refusing to rush to war like 'em khans did after 9/11 must have led to deep rethink and recalibration of extant social psych models only, perhaps. All cloaks and daggers only, hard to know what is really going on.

[chaanakya]

How does one distinguish the two cases?

1. West playing India, to check Chinese influence, and further their own interests.
2. India taking the assistance of West, to push back PRC's anti-India designs.

There is third scenario: China playing West and India against each other to protect its own interest.

[RajeshA]

How does one distinguish the two cases?

1. West playing India, to check Chinese influence, and further their own interests.
2. India taking the assistance of West, to push back PRC's anti-India designs.

There is third scenario: China playing West and India against each other to protect its own interest.

Well for one thing, we know that China plays Islamist groups (Paki kabila) against India.

China also seems to have developed several constituencies within India, most prominent of them was the CPI-M, which did its utmost to both sabotage the nuclear deal. Also when George W. Bush visited India, they were in the fore-front protesting against his visit along with several Muslim extremist groups.

The problem was CPI-M was so blatantly pro-Chinese, that they could not mask their loyalties, and hence proved ineffective. Nowadays, there are others like M.K. Bhadrakumar, etc. who can be a lot more convincing.

[Chinmayanand]

Chinese movie damns Mao with official approval using the ploy of love story

[chaanakya]

Well for one thing, we know that China plays Islamist groups (Paki kabila) against India.

China also seems to have developed several constituencies within India, most prominent of them was the CPI-M, which did its utmost to both sabotage the nuclear deal. Also when George W. Bush visited India, they were in the fore-front protesting against his visit along with several Muslim extremist groups.

The problem was CPI-M was so blatantly pro-Chinese, that they could not mask their loyalties, and hence proved ineffective. Nowadays, there are others like M.K. Bhadrakumar, etc. who can be a lot more convincing.

This is the sub text of Chinese theme.

China sees West as a rival in their bid to conquer /dominate the world politico economic scene while it sees India as a threat to its design and hence for them India is an unequal entity to be contained and stopped in its track before it becomes uncontainable.

To do this they try SL, Islamists, PK and Nepal/BD.

Internal constituencies both in liberal lefty circles and hard-hitting maoists are being encouraged by them to create internal disturbances to keep India busy. CPI underestimated the sentiments running against China within Indian mind.

China do realises POW is a threat to them , witness crushing of Uighur unrest but it would play that against India as containment measure .It contains India and keeps POW fixated upon India and Western world.

This is the Chakravyuha it has created for India and to break it you do not enter the Vyuha directly You avoid it and attack at the strongest point and not at the weakest point that is presented by enemy to you to lure you into the vyuha.Before you decide to enter you must know how to exit it.
Its strong point is its economy and that is what you need to attack.

Naga Pasha is only one of the weapons that China is using. Chkravyuha is the strategy to lure India into defeat. See it is attacking India at its strongest points: economy. Anywhere you see Chinese action is on Indian economy. Borders posturing is nothing but sabre rattling and luring India by presenting its weakest point.I am sure China knows that it can not sustain LAN assault upon India but if India attacks it for whatsoever reason, it can certainly give a good thrashing and immediately withdraw declaring ceasefire giving them a lot of H&D.

West have their own agenda and one of them is to ensure that growth of third world/developing countries do notypass them and they get enriched while keeping their pre-eminent position intact.

[shiv]

How does one distinguish the two cases?

1. West playing India, to check Chinese influence, and further their own interests.
2. India taking the assistance of West, to push back PRC's anti-India designs.

Let me put my view in the following manner:

What is the meaning of "India taking the assistance of West, to push back PRC's anti-India designs"?

What help is India taking? Let's say India is paying good money to the west for arms. India has managed to "buy off" the west in terms of a nuclear deal - but that gives us zilch in terms of extra nuclear deterrence. We get moral and diplomatic support against China? Maybe.

Ultimately we may have a military force to hold China at the borders and take out her string of pearls. Fine.

But which are the nations that can hit India and make things very difficult for India in case of war?

China is one - but hey the west is helping us.
Pakistan? The west is helping Pakistan

And even if you exclude these two you have the US sitting in bases in Diego Garcia, Pakistan and aircrfat carrier groups on the prowl. The US can take out critical targets in India any time. The US can restrict and take out critical Indian navy assets. We are nothing until we can dictate terms to any power. Don't forget the US. If you intend to forget/ignore the US - then stop being paranoid about China - a much less powerful and equally malicious power. How can we howl so miserable about China and delude ourselves about western powers. Just see the snake oil being thrown at us by their think tanks. And their restrictions. Stapled visas are nothing in comparison. Like a petulant child stamping his feet.

What is there to stop the US?

Goodwill? Hey I thought goodwill and Panchsheel etc are all useless Indian wet dreams? We scoff at such ideas with regard to China - but we completely ignore the huge mammoth in the room - the US. And we delude ourselves that "we are taking their help". They help only so much as it helps them One step beyond and they will supply China with something to screw us.

So please lets not delude ourselves. Power is power. The greater your independent power the better. The greater your ability to make the other power seek your help to fight a third party, the better it is for you.

[Arihant]

How does one distinguish the two cases?

1. West playing India, to check Chinese influence, and further their own interests.
2. India taking the assistance of West, to push back PRC's anti-India designs.

Very hard to distinguish. Simple strategy is to ask if there is any downside to playing along with the West, even if it were scenario one. Is there any scenario where the Chinese actually harbour benign intentions relative to us, with that goodwill getting muddied in this US-engineered belligerence? I think not...

[Arihant]

How does one distinguish the two cases?

1. West playing India, to check Chinese influence, and further their own interests.
2. India taking the assistance of West, to push back PRC's anti-India designs.

Let me put my view in the following manner:

What is the meaning of "India taking the assistance of West, to push back PRC's anti-India designs"?

What help is India taking? Let's say India is paying good money to the west for arms. India has managed to "buy off" the west in terms of a nuclear deal - but that gives us zilch in terms of extra nuclear deterrence. We get moral and diplomatic support against China? Maybe.

Ultimately we may have a military force to hold China at the borders and take out her string of pearls. Fine.

But which are the nations that can hit India and make things very difficult for India in case of war?

China is one - but hey the west is helping us.
Pakistan? The west is helping Pakistan

And even if you exclude these two you have the US sitting in bases in Diego Garcia, Pakistan and aircrfat carrier groups on the prowl. The US can take out critical targets in India any time. The US can restrict and take out critical Indian navy assets. We are nothing until we can dictate terms to any power. Don't forget the US. If you intend to forget/ignore the US - then stop being paranoid about China - a much less powerful and equally malicious power. How can we howl so miserable about China and delude ourselves about western powers. Just see the snake oil being thrown at us by their think tanks. And their restrictions. Stapled visas are nothing in comparison. Like a petulant child stamping his feet.

What is there to stop the US?

Goodwill? Hey I thought goodwill and Panchsheel etc are all useless Indian wet dreams? We scoff at such ideas with regard to China - but we completely ignore the huge mammoth in the room - the US. And we delude ourselves that "we are taking their help". They help only so much as it helps them One step beyond and they will supply China with something to screw us.

So please lets not delude ourselves. Power is power. The greater your independent power the better. The greater your ability to make the other power seek your help to fight a third party, the better it is for you.

No denying the nasty shenanigans of the US and other in the west...but if we were asked to choose between a world order dominated by China and one dominated by the US, which would we pick?

[chaanakya]

Thesis of Tibet as state of India and HHDL as President that you have presented in another thread is what will provide the exit to India from the Chkravyuha once it is entered by India. China will collapse just like former USSR after successful exit of India from the Vyuha though Chinese friends here may find it incredible. I would like China to invest massively in all sorts of deterrence/military build-ups etc. leaving nothing for its masses or teeming billions.

Monarchy is like a splendid ship, with all sail set; it moves majestically on, then it hits a rock and sinks for ever. Democracy is like a raft. It never sinks but, damn it, your feet are always in the water. (Fisher Ames, 1758-1808)

China is a Monarchy of CCCP/PLA. Get a rock under it and....

[chaanakya]

Shiv Why did US stopped with sending only 8th fleet USS Dwight D. Eisenhower and could not help in formation of BD.
It had the ability to do then what it can do now as you describe it.

So I infer that its not military power alone that is the prime factor in such decisions.

[Varoon Shekhar]

"China is in fact moving slowly towards Dharma."

The expectation when India became independent was that China would be a gracious, classy and ethereal Buddhist country, with whom India would have very friendly, even fraternal relations. What a rude shock India received when the Chinese started spewing out "Reactionary bourgeois paper tiger" and "Running dog of Anglo-American imperialism.." blah, blah blah.

The quote from the former Chinese ambassador to the US( probably representing Formosa/Taiwan?), that someone posted, was one of the most eloquent and incisive statements made by a Chinese. If the mentality displayed by the ambassador was representative, there would not be one morsel of a problem between the two countries.

[VinodTK]

A New Shenzhen

Beijing aims to turn the remote western city of Kashgar into the country’s next big boomtown.
:
This scheme, which involves military infrastructure near Indian territory in a disputed zone, worries India; in July, the country’s minister of state and defense expressed “concern” over the project.

[RajeshA]

shiv saar,

I've responded to your post here.

[Varoon Shekhar]

"Simple strategy is to ask if there is any downside to playing along with the West,"

There is a constituency in the West that is very friendly( though stopping short of being fraternal) to the idea of India, and its economic growth. You do see programmes in Canada, the US and the UK, and individual articles/ comments in all these countries' media, about India being an economic power, even an impending superpower. Individually, one can think of Mark Tully, Greg Sheridan( Australia) Thomas Friedman, John Griggs( oldtimer) Edward Luce, Jack Anderson, Francois Gauthier, Claude Arpi, and a host of others. There are also uplifting TV programmes in these places, produced by ethnic Indians( eg Sanjeev Bhaskar, Mihir Bose) about India's rise and importance.

It is such individuals and programmes that are conspicuous by their absence in China; China sees India as a challenger and potential enemy, so boosting India is not on their agenda. Yes, there are groups in North America and Europe who are troubled by India's rise, but they are balanced in those countries, by the upbeat and sympathetic persons.

[naren]

The Anglo-Americans have boxed Indians in mentally. Chinese have boxed Indians in physically.

Trying my hand at some catchy one-liners:

All of them are stolen from fortune cookies. See, it makes sense when you add "in bed" at the end:

1. "Awareness of one, blinds one to the other, in bed"!
2. "Awareness of one, colors the view of the other, in bed"!
3. "No amount of red or blue pills, gives you more oxygen, in bed"!
4. "The Matrix is all about convincing you that there is a Matrix, in bed"!
5. "I'd rather be in Reality pissing everywhere, than be in the Matrix pissing in, in bed"!
6. Love for the Raper, is no protection against AIDS, in bed.
7. Mental gymnastics are no help, when your parachute fails, in bed.

[svinayak]

The Anglo-Americans have boxed Indians in mentally. Chinese have boxed Indians in physically.

Trying my hand at some catchy one-liners:

I knew somebody would figure this out.
Mental chains are the most difficult shed and an entire Indian generation (born after 1940/DIE) has been confined to their own version of history.

[naren]

Chinese movie damns Mao with official approval using the ploy of love story

That is news indeed. Yimou Zhang is a well known critic of Mao era. He made several classics ("To Live" is a popular one, my favourite) and were very controversial back then. It seems that there is change of mood in the leadership. Good for China. Good for us too in the long run.