Indian Naval Discussion

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Sep 2010 14:33

bhailoge - is there a good primer on naval tactics in the guided missile destroyer age?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Sep 2010 14:48

you could try the warships1 or the all the worlds battlecruisers board. they may be able to help you better.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Sep 2010 19:26

PHOTOS: Indian Navy Warships Off Good Hope

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 28 Sep 2010 20:29

Mohan,

Since you have an interest in history, the following will be good reading for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_tact ... of_Galleys
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto_(1571) This describes European artillery vs Turkish composite bowmen in the naval context (fought around the same time as Talikota). And how archers could hold cause significant damage despite artillery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_tact ... ge_of_Sail
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_tact ... e_of_Steam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_naval_tactics

The article on naval tactics in the age of sail is exceptionally well written. The information contained here is similar to what I gathered reading over a hundred books over three decades.

In the present age, Falklands, Bangladesh Liberation and Arab Israeli wars in 1967 & 1973 were the only significant actions.

I believe Operation Trident is the only action since WW2 when an enemy fleet was pummeled in its harbor, and the most successful naval action since WW2.

The next significant action I would rate is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Latakia

Falklands was more naval power projection on land and naval vs air rather than naval vs naval in the classical sense.

The British didn’t use any notable tactics and the Argentinean inability to properly fuse and arm their bombs, and shortage of Etendards and Exocets.

Argentines had only 5 Etendards and 5 Exocets with pilots having only 45 hours of flight time on the type before they went to war. The 5 missiles were well used sinking destroyer Sheffield and transport Atlantic Conveyor. One land based missile was fired from an improvised launcher designed by Argentine technicians during the short war, and severely damaged HMS Glamorgan.

The British never learnt from Karachi and Latakia 11 & 9 years earlier. One of the factors we were discussing in the Historical Battles thread on how powers are complacent and refuse to adopt newer technologies. This would be one example of that factor.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Sep 2010 20:42

thanks tsarkar babu

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 29 Sep 2010 06:37

Indian Navy To Get Another Floating Dock By 2014
Aviation Week

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 29 Sep 2010 11:05

Indian Navy to acquire Floating Dock Navy-2 for Andaman and Nicobar Islands

PTI wires..

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 29 Sep 2010 12:14

ArmenT wrote :

You're right of course that it isn't only the steam turbines that limit the top speed. There is also the shafts and the power train and the whole kit and caboodle that transmit the power to the props. Again, the designers used parts that they had previous experience with. However, the nuclear reactors on board are definitely capable of producing more power than what the steam turbines are designed for.

There is also a limit to amount of power you can feed to the ships propeller.

From wikipedia:

Marine propeller cavitation

Cavitation can occur if an attempt is made to transmit too much power through the screw, or if the propeller is operating at a very high speed. Cavitation can occur in many ways on a propeller. The two most common types of propeller cavitation are suction side surface cavitation and tip vortex cavitation.

Suction side surface cavitation forms when the propeller is operating at high rotational speeds or under heavy load (high blade lift coefficient). The pressure on the upstream surface of the blade (the "suction side") can drop below the vapour pressure of the water, resulting in the formation of a pocket of vapour. Under such conditions, the change in pressure between the downstream surface of the blade (the "pressure side") and the suction side is limited, and eventually reduced as the extent of cavitation is increased. When most of the blade surface is covered by cavitation, the pressure difference between the pressure side and suction side of the blade drops considerably, and thrust produced by the propeller drops. This condition is called "thrust breakdown". This effect wastes energy, makes the propeller "noisy" as the vapour bubbles collapse, and most seriously, erodes the screw's surface due to localized shock waves against the blade surface.

There is also a video of propeller cavitation :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpklBS3s7iU&

The Wiki article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propeller

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 29 Sep 2010 12:20

US Senate OKs transfer of two minehunters to India

The US Senate has approved the transfer of two Osprey-class minehunter coastal ships to India.

The two minehunter ships are Kingfisher (MHC-56) and Cormorant (MHC-57). Both were decommissioned in 2007 and now awaiting it’s to India.

Osprey-class coastal minehunters are designed to find, classify, and destroy moored and bottom naval mines from vital waterways. They use sonar and video systems, cable cutters and a mine detonating device that can be released and detonated by remote control.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Sep 2010 13:36

interesting - the USN has around 14 older avenger class minehunters of arnd 1300t which are still in service but reported to be underfunded. these are considered capable of crossing the oceans alone long range.

the 12 osprey class minehunters (fiberglass) were inducted between 1993 and 1998 but all decommed and put in reserve in 2007
probably due to funding shortages and lack of mines to hunt. they are not trans oceanic ships and need lift from deckships for that
but in littoral and coastal waters, these 800t ships are fine.

they probably have 25 yrs life left with proper refit and customization because even the oldest is just 17 yrs old and newest is 13.

we should probably obtain 6 more and finish up the MCMV tamasha atleast - cheaper than a license build of new line @ Goa.

the kingfisher and cormorant we are getting are from 1996 and 1997. i.e. 14 and 13 yrs old only with 4 of that resting
confortably in mothballs.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Sep 2010 15:00

A good 2 page article on the "leaks" in the IN's sub fleet and its future prospects,a quite daunting task to keep both numbers and capability high enough to meet future challenges.

Leaks in India's submarine strategy
By Peter J Brown

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/LI29Df01.html

Xcpts:

India's emphasis on undersea warfare is growing, but too slowly for many experts. Today, the Indian navy's submarine fleet - India's "silent service" - is beset with numerous problems and delays.

In China, the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) shows no sign of backing off its plans to gradually increase its presence in the Indian Ocean. This influx of Chinese naval vessels does not pose an immediate threat to India's national security, but the situation could change.

Russia, however, may wield considerable influence over the flow of events. While Russia continues to serve as a vital cog in the vast
machinery that is driving the PLAN's construction and development of a modern submarine fleet, American submarine historian and expert Norman Polmar sees ample evidence that Russia is selling India better undersea systems than those it is selling China.

"China, unlike India, is a natural enemy of Russia, and despite China's distrust of Russia, the Chinese deal with the Russians because the Russians possess submarine and antisubmarine technologies that the Chinese want," said Polmar. "This is solely an economic relationship involving China as a customer whereas the Russian's longstanding military assistance relationship with India is based on a need to sustain both its economic and geopolitical bonds that Russia deems very important to its overall security."

At the same time, the US decision to sell India sophisticated anti-submarine warfare (ASW) aircraft known as P-8 India (P-8I) is significant as well in terms of countering any Chinese sub activities in the Indian Ocean. Although US Defense Secretary Robert Gates might have a submarine surprise up his sleeve for Indian Defense Minister A K Antony who is currently in Washington for talks, this seems unlikely given the current restrictions on high-tech exports to India.

"Keep in mind that in the P-8I aircraft, India is getting an ASW platform from the US, not comprehensive and advanced ASW systems such as sonar, or magnetic anomaly detectors," said Polmar.

"India's submarine force has declined because a good number of older subs will be retiring very soon - the Kilos start retiring in 2013, for example - and an insufficient number of newer subs have been acquired to replace them," said Dr Rajeswari Rajagopalan, senior fellow in security studies at the Observer Research Foundation in New Delhi.

"India's submarine fleet remains a coastal fleet because of a lack of nuclear-powered subs, and its reach is limited because the missiles on these subs have limited range. Finally, the focus of the Indian navy's attention also appears to be on large surface ships rather than submarines, which is hindering development of the sub fleet."

In mid-2009, India launched a nuclear sub, the INS Arihant. It is currently designated as an Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV), and it is undergoing sea trials. If all goes well, Arihant might be transferred to the Indian navy by the end of 2011. Plans call for two more ATVs with a goal of building five or six new nuclear subs. It is still unclear whether these ATVs are nuclear strategic missile subs (SSBNs) or simply nuclear - powered attack subs (SSNs). (See India's nuclear submarine plan surfaces, Asia Times Online, Feb 20, 2009).

"Some estimates suggest that if India is to maintain an effective nuclear triad [from air, land and sea], India would need at least a fleet of 24 subs, though this is likely out of India's reach,' said Rajagopalan. "Meanwhile, a Russian nuclear-powered Akula II SSN - the K-152 Nerpa - has departed Russia for India under a 10-year lease." [2]

Absent any replacements or additions to its existing fleet, the most upbeat assessment is that India's sub fleet could be reduced to around nine by 2014 or 2015. In fact, the Indian navy has already notified the government that there is strong possibility that only nine subs might be in service by 2012, and just five in the coming years. No matter which projection proves to be accurate, the result is still a single digit total.

India is in the process of getting six Scorpene subs from the French - with an option of six additional subs - to be built at the Mazagon facility in Mumbai under the supervision of French technicians, but this procurement is experiencing a slowdown. Mazagon Docks in Mumbai will construct three of the six, Hindustan Shipyard Ltd in Visakhapatnam will construct one, and the other two may be procured from foreign sources or built by another private shipyard in India

"The delivery of the first of the French Scorpenes, which was supposed to enter service in December 2012, has been delayed. Antony addressed this situation in parliament only a few weeks back. This will clearly impact upon India's undersea force levels," said Rajagopalan. "India has about 35 private shipyards, of which L&T [Larsen & Toubro Ltd] and Pipavav are believed to be competing to build the two submarines, of the six planned."

Some doubt that these two will be built in India after all.

India must focus on meeting its planned timetable for new submarine deployments to avoid critical challenges in the next decade. Among those who argue for submarines, there have been disagreements over whether to pursue nuclear-powered or conventional submarines. In fact, under the original P-75I program, there was a 30-year Submarine Construction Plan approved in 1999.

"Internal disagreements within the navy, however, have substantially undermined that plan. The fact that last two naval chiefs were naval aviators who did not appear to have great interest in allocating limited available funding for sub programs did not help matters," said Rajagopalan.

According to some reports, once Antony became defense minister in 2006, all the decisions relating to the nuclear triad were put on hold. Antony reportedly was of the opinion that decisions involving India's strategic nuclear program should be taken by the Prime Minister's Office. In the process, there was little or no real progress concerning any additional SSNs and SSBNs.

"Dr VK Saraswat, director general of India's Defense Research and Development Organization [DRDO] is of the view that SSNs can be developed easily once DRDO gets the go-ahead. He had noted that the essential difference is the weaponry and accordingly the size, but the technology for design and integration remains the same," said Rajagopalan. "Meanwhile, the Indian Atomic Energy Commission is continuing with its work on nuclear steam reactors for the ATVs which are powered by light-water reactors using enriched uranium as fuel."

Pg.2 continues....

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 29 Sep 2010 15:09

Singha,

Only two were left. The rest have been transferred to "friendly" navies.

And the Avenger class is now old.

New MCMVs are absolutely required and in greater numbers than what is currently planned.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Sep 2010 17:41

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 29 Sep 2010 19:43

This would seem to confirm that we are close to going with an Intermarine design for the future MCMV.

Anshul · Post by **Anshul** » 29 Sep 2010 19:56

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USS_K ... HC-56).jpg

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 29 Sep 2010 20:27

Rupak,

If that is indeed the case, then something like the MITO class sold to the Finnish Navy may be looked at.

http://tietokannat.mil.fi/data/3113/3.jpg

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 29 Sep 2010 21:24

Singha wrote: no way will India ever grab any opportunity quickly! we need a 10 yr decision cycle.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Sep 2010 21:44

the two MCMV might not mean anything. saw a couple of low hanging fruit and took it. no way a single vendor order will be tolerated by the 'fair, balanced and secular' MOD, unless the Italian connection works wonders.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Sep 2010 23:36

Oh we need quality new Ocean Capable MCMV , some old maintenance prone vessel is the last thing we need. Shows the attitude of MOD to MCMV.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Sep 2010 23:39

^^^ Any reasons for deeming them "maintenance prone"?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 29 Sep 2010 23:43

Singha wrote:interesting - the USN has around 14 older avenger class minehunters of arnd 1300t which are still in service but reported to be underfunded. these are considered capable of crossing the oceans alone long range.

the 12 osprey class minehunters (fiberglass) were inducted between 1993 and 1998 but all decommed and put in reserve in 2007
probably due to funding shortages and lack of mines to hunt. they are not trans oceanic ships and need lift from deckships for that
but in littoral and coastal waters, these 800t ships are fine.

they probably have 25 yrs life left with proper refit and customization because even the oldest is just 17 yrs old and newest is 13.

we should probably obtain 6 more and finish up the MCMV tamasha atleast - cheaper than a license build of new line @ Goa.

the kingfisher and cormorant we are getting are from 1996 and 1997. i.e. 14 and 13 yrs old only with 4 of that resting
confortably in mothballs.

they must have been made available for cheap as well..IMO, a valueable addition to the IN which is low on minesweepers. Will be likely inducted very fast as well.

I just hope that they show the same pragmatism in non-US sourced non-FMS deals as well, such as the likely sale of the U-214s originally meant for Greece.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Sep 2010 23:49

yes I hate to say it - but we need to be more like the pakis on this - always quick to create/spot tactical opportunities for gain. they have really done well on issues like acquiring a large fleet of mothballed helicopters and SP cannons.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Sep 2010 23:51

By the time it enters in the IN it will be more than 15 years old and being unique ship of her class it will again be a logistics over head. New class of 6- 8 ocean capable MCMV with new technology has been a demand of IN for nearly a decade now to be built by Indian SY , some how these types of ship do not get due attention over other capital ships and then IN is junked with some American decommisioned coastal mine hunter

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 30 Sep 2010 00:27

^^^ I do agree with that point. GSL was supposed to have started delivering the MCMVs from 2008! Till now it is still scouting for land for "additional infrastructure". I read somewhere that the revised dates for delivery were in 2011 ... I don't see that happening

. There has been no news of which international partner was selected between Intermarine, Kangnam, and IZAR.

Meanwhile, I think that MHC-56 and MHC-57 are being scampered to provide for INS Alleppey (M65) and INS Ratnagiri (M66) which would be decommissioned soon. The other six in remaining in the Pondicherry class have 6-8 years left in them. By that time the "indigenous" MCMVs will come through.

Even with that, we would have gone down from 18 minesweepers (including the Mahe class) to 10 (Pondicherry++ class). Obviously, not the ideal scenario.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 30 Sep 2010 04:13

CHACHING

India, US defence deal set to get bigger

NEW DELHI: India's biggest- ever defence deal inked with US till now is all set to get bigger. Plans are virtually final now to order another four P-8I Poseidon long-range maritime patrol aircraft to add to the eight already contracted under the $2.1 billion deal inked last year. Defence ministry sources say the project to acquire four more Boeing P-8I aircraft will be taken up for approval in the meeting of the defence acquisitions council, headed by A K Antony, on October 8.

It will be held in the backdrop of the recent visits of Antony and Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma to US. ''The new P-8Is will cost the same as each of the eight ordered in January 2009, without any cost escalation. There will also be similar offsets requirements. In the original $2.1-billion contract, the offsets were valued over $600 million,'' said a source.

India is going in for the 12 P-8Is to plug huge gaps in its maritime snooping capabilities in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR), which has become heavily militarised with even China increasingly making strategic forays into the region.

At present, Navy has a woefully-inadequate maritime reconnaissance fleet of eight ageing Russian Tupolev-142M turboprops and five upgraded Ilyushin-38SD aircraft, a dozen Israeli Heron and Searcher-II spy drones, and a few Dornier-228 squadrons.

Based on the Boeing 737 commercial airliners with cruise speeds of 445 knots, the P-8Is will not undertake just surveillance missions. They will also be capable of deadly anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare, armed as they will be with torpedoes, depth bombs and Harpoon missiles.

They will have ''a mission radius'' of 600 nautical miles, with 5.5 hours on-station loitering time, and 1,200 nautical miles, with 4 hours on station. With mid-air refuelling, their operational radius will further go up. The first of the eight original P-8Is is slated to be inducted by early-2013, with the others following by 2016. The US Navy, too, will begin inducting the first lot of its 117 P-8A multi-mission maritime aircraft around the same time.

P-8Is are being customised to Indian naval requirements, with communication, electronic warfare and other systems being sourced from India. For instance, defence PSU Bharat Electronics is delivering Data Link-II, a communication system to enable rapid exchange of information among Indian warships, submarines aircraft and shore establishments, for the P-8Is to Boeing. There is, however, the question of India having not yet inked the Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum Agreement (CISMOA) being pushed by the US as ''a sensitive technology-enabler'' for P-8I and other arms procurements.

But MoD and Navy are not too worried. Antony, in fact, told his American counterpart Robert Gates in Washington on Tuesday that while India appreciated the US government's view that pacts like CISMOA would ''facilitate access to high technologies'', there were still some concerns which needed to be addressed .

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Sep 2010 07:52

the bears and may's can maybe last another 5 yrs before they refuse to get up one morning.

if we are interested in a hi-lo mix, maybe another 3 P8I (to make it 15) and a smaller 2 engined "inshore" ASW bird like 40 units would be reqd. the Do228 has no ASW capability and is too small & short legged. these would sanitize the inshore areas near naval routes, andaman sea,
gujarat and so on, leaving the P8I's free for offensive ops in support of IN.

are there such products out there already ? the turkish and italian navy use the ATR72-500-ASW variant which looks like a good choice
because the basic a/c sells well, is in use in india via kingfisher & jet and price will be reasonable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATR_72#Other_versions

the CASA and dassault have MPA version but no ASW.

IN also needs a couple of specialized helicopter carriers to provide onsite ASW. perhaps with 10 big ASW helis each.

venkyt · Post by **venkyt** » 30 Sep 2010 10:47

W.r.t to Tu-142M & Il-38, We can always enhance the overall performance by, say, fixing minor but expensive issues to start with, which cumulatively yield very positive and considerable benefits in shorter period. Major issues will be looked up while upgrading, say, replacing fuel-guzzler engine with a better one, and so on so forth. One good example that comes to my mind is B-52, though she is more like our Silsila-fame Rekha, USAF does manage to keep her look like Preity. We can very well try to keep our Tu-142Ms like our Ramya Krishnan & Il-38 like our Madhuri Dixit.

Some thing [my instincts] says we are in big trouble marrying Lady Gaga [P8i]. .

Give us 2 Sqds of Tu-142MKI and Il-38MKI, then BoB, IO and AS can be our RESERVoir.

To be more assertive, I'd also like to rename the naval commands. Bay of Bengal Fleet, Indian Ocean Fleet, Arabian Sea Fleet and Far East[Andaman] Fleet and I am drooling about having true 'Western Fleet' based out of Madagascar / Tanzania / Seychelles &/ Uganda, Eritrea. JMT

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Sep 2010 11:27

the tu142 has one of the most powerful turboprop engines even known to man. not sure it has a modern designed successor.
the huge contra props were also leading edge for that era , a design bureau named Zhadanov made it.

with both bear and may out of production, I guess only mothballed airframes in russia are left....I am not sure how russia intends to be a
serious player without developing a worthy successor to the Bear - the pacific and artic is swarming with NATO submarines while russia barely has a few akulas left to go out and play.

the tu142 in IN service is said to have a huge downtime need perhaps due to its dated electrical, engine and mechanical design. it is
weak in crew comfort given the massive range and the slim fuselage inst too ideal for packing in lots of sensors , buoys and weapons.

venkyt · Post by **venkyt** » 30 Sep 2010 11:49

@ Singha ji.

Is it not at all possible to upgrade/improvise engines, electrical,mechanical systems, crew comfort etc?. Can't we lay hands on few younger among mothballed aircrafts?. I think Russians will be more interested to help us here and we could have saved a lot on finance, time and also L/Earn some technologies while upgrading. We could have easily keep em flying at least till 2025. Again, I feel compelled to compare what US is doing to their 'Rekha'.

Any time, any place, its always better to be with a known devil than with unknown angel. To me, Ruskkies are still irreplaceable friend.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Sep 2010 12:03

Pardon me if I am wrong, but aren't the TU-142 Bears also going through an upgrade which includes ability to carry air launched Brahmos.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Sep 2010 12:30

Singha,

If the desi RTA flies then that airframe will be a nice platform for low end MPA. With the high end being P8I.

venkyt · Post by **venkyt** » 30 Sep 2010 12:51

@Pratuysh, Desi RTA will take around 10 years to fly and MPA on top of that is another 5 years. Can we afford to wait that long and risk our security?. Getting a "Desi" version of everything is a good idea but is it really feasible?. Hope many of us will agree how difficult is to design and develop a 'Desi' Wrist Watch with Cent% Desi components, using Desi machinery.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 30 Sep 2010 12:59

Saw this on the newswire. Sorry, don't have a link.

India is planning to buy more U.S. maritime planes and warships to strengthen its naval operational capabilities, local media reported on Thursday.

India plans to buy four more U.S. newly-developed P-8I maritime long-range patrol planes worth about one billion U.S dollars for its Navy, and the project of new P-8I acquisition will be taken up for approval in the coming meeting of the defense acquisitions council headed by Defense Minister A.K.Antony on Oct. 8, the Times of India reported, citing the source of the Indian Ministry of Defense.

Meanwhile, India will acquire two so-called newly-decommissioned Osprey-class coastal minesweepers from the U.S. for its Navy, and the U.S. Senate approved the transfer of the two ships to India on Monday, reported Press Trust of India.

The Indian Navy said its air surveillance fleet and coastal mine-sweeping group are aging and inadequate, and need to be replaced .

Presently, the Indian navy's air surveillance fleet consists of eight Russia-made Tu-142 long-range patrol planes acquired in the 1980s and five Russia-made long-range Il-38s, which entered the service in the 1970s.

The Indian Navy's coastal mine-hunting group comprises eight Russia-made Pondicherry class minesweepers procured between the 1970s and the 1980s and some Russia-made Mahe class minesweepers bought in the 1980s.

P-8I is the world's most sophisticated maritime long-range patrol plane, and the two Osprey class minesweepers commissioned in the U.S. Navy in 1996 and 1997 respectively. Osprey class minesweepers are regarded as the second largest minesweepers and the largest glass-reinforced plastic warships in the world.

In January 2009, India signed an agreement with the U.S. to acquire eight P-8Is worth 2.1 billion U.S. dollars for its Navy. The Indian Navy will receive the eight P-8Is by 2016.

The four new P-8Is will greatly improve the Indian Navy's maritime long-range reconnaissance and striking capabilities over the Indian Ocean, and the two new minesweepers will boost the India's coastal operational capabilities, an Indian navy official said.

The P-8I is a new type of long-range reconnaissance plane with the functions of fatal anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare by carrying torpedoes, depth bombs and missiles.

Osprey-class coastal minesweepers are capable of using advanced sonar and other systems to find, classify and neutralize many types of mines in coastal areas. They are stealth ships with exceptionally low magnetic and acoustic signatures.

As the relation between the Indian and U.S. Navies develops in recent years, the Indian Navy is acquiring more and more U.S. weapons. In January 2007, the Indian navy procured the U.S. newly- decommissioned large amphibious ship Trenton with a full displacement of 17,000 tons at a cost of only 48 million U.S. dollars, and the ship becomes the second largest warship of the Indian Navy.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 30 Sep 2010 13:27

Both the American Minesweepers in question are barely 13-14 years old, I wonder why the USN decommissioned them within a decade of induction.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 30 Sep 2010 13:45

As Singha said, all Osprey class minesweepers were put in reserve in 2007 due to funding constraints and lack of mines to hunt.

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Sep 2010 15:49

Austin wrote:By the time it enters in the IN it will be more than 15 years old and being unique ship of her class it will again be a logistics over head. New class of 6- 8 ocean capable MCMV with new technology has been a demand of IN for nearly a decade now to be built by Indian SY , some how these types of ship do not get due attention over other capital ships and then IN is junked with some American decommisioned coastal mine hunter

Am sure this is the prelude to IN being made to acquire more of American MCMVs ( Amrikis will open a production line for IN if required)...

Will the IN also recieve the "advanced sonar" of the MCMV or the usual degraded one ( since we havemt signed the US specific pacts)?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Sep 2010 16:04

shiv aroor clarifies the 2 MCMV are cleared for bidding to a list of countries incl India. IN has no yet decided to bid for them.

also do not confuse between MPA and ASW - there's like 10 a/c suitable for MPA -vs- the ASW role.

MPA - EO sensors, sea search radar, radio, maybe a couple ASMs
ASW - EO sensors, sea search radar, datalink, trailing antenna to talk with subs(?), MAD, sonobuoys, depth charges, LWT, ASM, onboard sonar consoles....

ASW is a much more complex beast. as mentioned the ATR72-ASW seems like the only low end kit for ASW -vs- lots of smaller MPA birds. Do228 is MPA , it can never be ASW.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Sep 2010 16:07

there is nothing particularly gold plated imo about high frequency mine hunting/avoidance sonar. american balao/gato class subs in WW2 mounted the first sets and raided the sea of japan past moored minefields in tsushima straits.

we should be able to make such sonars on our own and use both in MCMV, ships like P28 and on P75/Arihant line of domestic subs

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Oct 2010 04:36

Singha wrote:...
if we are interested in a hi-lo mix, maybe another 3 P8I (to make it 15) and a smaller 2 engined "inshore" ASW bird like 40 units would be reqd. the Do228 has no ASW capability and is too small & short legged. these would sanitize the inshore areas near naval routes, andaman sea,
gujarat and so on, leaving the P8I's free for offensive ops in support of IN.

are there such products out there already ? the turkish and italian navy use the ATR72-500-ASW variant which looks like a good choice
because the basic a/c sells well, is in use in india via kingfisher & jet and price will be reasonab.
...

According to the award winning IN Vision 2020 document written by one of the officers, it was hinting along the lines of balancing the surface fleet with the airborne fleet with the submarine fleet. These were to be a hi-lo mix of 12 platforms each. [Note: It was a long time ago I read the document ... so some of these could be mixed with my own extrapolation

]

24 - Fleet Support Ships (12 6,000t + 12 3,000t)
24 - Multimission Maritime Aircraft (12 long-ranged + 12 medium-ranged)
24 - Submarines (12 SSK + 12 SSN)

Looking at the current/future orders, in 2025/30 IN looks to have the following fleet (roughly):
26+ - Major Multi-role Surface Combatants (3 P-15, 3 P-15A, 4 P-15B, 3 Krivak III, 3 Krivak IIIA, 3 P-17, 7 P-17A)
24+ - Multimission Maritime Aircraft (8+4 P-8I, 12 Medium MMA)
~24 - Submarines (6 P-75, 6 P-75A, 12 indigenous SSN based on P-75/75A experience)

To some degree, IN seems to have been guided by that 2020 vision document. However, due to delays, it will be past 2020 when IN will have achieved it vision of a very balanced fleet: surface, air, underwater.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 01 Oct 2010 07:40

A retired Admiral had mentioned that IN will have 90 combatants ( ships + subs) by 2022 along with 400 Aircraft by 2022.