Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

srai · Post by **srai** » 05 Oct 2010 01:42

chackojoseph wrote:
srai wrote:Some T-72s will have to be upgraded ... but not all 1,700.

With Arjun Mk.I (and in another 4 years Arjun Mk.II) being produced at 50-100 units/year (plus local T-90S production), there will be a transitional period where T-72s will need to soldier on while new Arjun and T-90S regiments are being raised between 2010 and 2020 timeframe. IMO, there will probably be a need to upgrade at least 600-800 T-72s as an interim measure so they can stay in service till 2020/25. These upgraded T-72s could be used in the reserve regiments after T90S and Arjun are fully inducted.
Please re read the bold line. This is exactly what I am thinking.

Then there is a quote from Distinguished Scientist W Selvamurthy (former CC LS and HR, now in admin) which he told me. He said that "once they start using the tank, they will be more confident." Actually, it looks like happening now. so far we have not seen anon officers cribbing over the bad Arjun. it could be calm before the storm or someone is seriously auditing Arjun induction from outside.

Doing some rough calculations to figure out how many T-72s would need to be upgraded ...

Roughly speaking, according to IA's ORBAT and current orders:

32 regiments of T-72 [@62 tanks per regiment = 1,984 tanks total]
27 regiments of T-90S [(310+372+1000) = 1,682 tanks @62 per regiment]
4 regiments of Arjun MK.I [(124+124) = 248 tanks @62 per regiment]
--------------------------------------------------------
63 tank regiments total

As it is evident from above, based on current orders T-90S is not directly replacing the T-72s in service. With Future MBT not going into production until 2020+ and Arjun MK.II going into production around 2014, the T-72 upgrade numbers depends on the number of regiments of Arjun MK.II orders.

Given that IA has major costs associated with the modernization of its artillery, helicopters, vehicles etc between 2010-2020, IA will be forced to limit how much budget allocation its MBT armored forces get. Let's say IA will spend around $500 million to $1 billion USD annually (not to exceed) between 2010-2020 for the upgrades of T-72, and induction of T-90S and Arjun MK.II.

Assuming the costs are roughly the following:
$1 million per T-72 upgrades
$5 million per T-90S
$5 million per Arjun MK.II
$5 million per FMBT

Given that IA would want to completely switch to FMBT production in around 10-15 years, we can assume that the T-90S and Arjun MK.II production run will roughly be 10 years. Although production follows typically a "bell curve" with a gradual increase to peak and then gradual decrease to finish, for simplicity sake let's just use the overall average produced spread out equally over 10 years.

Between 2010-2015
$500 million for 100 T-90S (2 regiments/year at @45 units + 5 reserves (12 reserves @ later schedule))
$248 million for 248 T-72s upgrades (4 regiments/year)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
$748 million/year for MBT purchase/upgrade

Between 2015-2020
$500 million for 100 T-90S (new regiments plus full 12 reserves for earlier regiments))
$310 million for 62 Arjun MK.II (1 regiment/year)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
$810 million/year for MBT purchase

Between 2020-2025
$310 million for 62 Arjun MK.II (1 regiment/year)
$620 million for 124 FMBT (2 regiments/year)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
$930 million/year for MBT purchase

Based on the above hypothesis, 620 Arjun MK.II (or 10 regiments) could be produced and 1,240 T-72 (or 20 regiments) could be upgraded. Remaining 2 regiments (or 124 units) of not-upgraded T-72s would be the first to be replaced by the FMBT after 2020. At 2 to 3 regiments per year, it will take around 7 to 10 years (2027-2030) for FMBT to replace all of the upgraded T-72s in service (20 regiments or 1,240 units) before it can begin replacing the T-90S and Arjun.

Between 2025-2030
$930 million for 186 FMBT (3 regiments/year)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
$930 million/year for MBT purchase

Upgraded T-72s would need to serve until 2030 based on the above rough calculations.

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 05 Oct 2010 06:12

Interesting little tidbit - could this be us...? Elbit Tank Upgrade.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... tract.html

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 Oct 2010 10:36

srai wrote:As it is evident from above, based on current orders T-90S is not directly replacing the T-72s in service.

AFIK They are replacing. The units are being re-equipped.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Oct 2010 12:00

Chacko,

If the T90 is replacing the 72 then what replaced the Vijayanta and the T 55s. IIRC the 55s went around 2003 and the Vijayanta around 2007 or threrabouts.

Because this would have left a short fall of approx 2000 tanks in the IA.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Oct 2010 12:27

It is inevitable that some of the older tanks are being replaced by T-90. And same are most likely to be T-72.

Here, one needs to keep in mind that apart from replacement of old MBT in existing Armored Regiments, newer Regiments are also being raised. IIRC, the four new regiments planned (2 raised and 2 other in 2011) were to equip with T-90. As per dberwal sahab of BRF, the plan was to equip all the Armored Divisions with T-90 by 2011. So, not all the addition of T-90 will go towards replacing old tanks in frontline Armored Regiments.

If one remembers the report couple of days back, five(5) Armored Regiments of 'White Tiger' Armored Division - which is the 31st Armored Division - are to receive 'Color' and all are T-90 Regiments. These Armored Regiments would have offloaded their older tanks. My guess is that these older T-72 in turn will be used to replace the T-55 in IA Service.

Pratyush, T-55 is very much in service. It is Vijayanta which has been withdrawn. AFAIK, these are primarily with Armored Regiments alotted to Infantry Divisions and some Armored Regiments with RAPIDs.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Oct 2010 13:59

Rohit,

The armour page of BRF is providing information contrary to your post regarding the 55s. It suggests that the 55s would have been withdrawn starting 2001 and the would be gone by 2008. Please see that.

However in 2001, the army decided to phase out the tank over a period of seven years and replace them with upgraded T-72M1 MBTs.

Admins it may need correction in the light of what Rohit has posted.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Oct 2010 15:18

The upgradation of T-72 has been stuck for quite some time and may happen in this Defence Plan - 2012-2017. And Project Gulmohar, the upgradation programme for T-55 was to ensured that these tanks will be in service till 2015 period.

I very clearly remember couple of pics posted by Shiv (our own pisskological dactar sahib) which consisted of T-55 tanks belonging 11 or 12 Infantry Division. And the best part was it also had pics of Vijayantas - and that too in with formation sign and tactical number same as the T-55. So, my guess was the said unit had a mix of T-55 and Vijayantas in same Regiment. So, some Vijayantas may well be around as well (I know that is contrary to what I posted earlier - but one cannot be definite of these things)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Oct 2010 15:44

^^^If we can keep those T-55 in good condition we can donate those to afganistan forces to fight the talibs.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 Oct 2010 15:56

Guys. I could be wrong. But, I will surely make up for this. Wait till I post some stuff in images thread. I was out clicking it.

Added later. ......For tank lovers.

srai · Post by **srai** » 05 Oct 2010 19:56

chackojoseph wrote:
srai wrote:As it is evident from above, based on current orders T-90S is not directly replacing the T-72s in service.
AFIK They are replacing. The units are being re-equipped.

Yes ... I was surprised myself too when I did the rough calculations.

For lack of a more current IA's ORBAT, looking at BR's ORBAT page:

Armour: 3 Armoured Divisions + 8 Independent Armoured Brigades = 63 Armoured Regiments;
..............13 T-55 Regiments
..............35 T-72M1 Regiments
..............14 Vijayanta Regiments
..............1 Arjun Mk.1 Regiment (Undergoing Trials)
*T-90S MBTs are currently being delivered to replace the older tanks.

Look at the number of T-55 and Vijayanta regiments and if you add them up that's 27 regiments (13+14), which is exactly the number of T-90S regiments [27 -> (310+372+1000) = 1,682 tanks @62 per regiment] according to my previous rough calculations. From the above as well, it seems like the 3 additional regiments of Arjun MK.I will be replacing 3 of the T-72M1 regiments (which leaves 32 regiments).

Note: It could very likely be that some T-55 regiments are being kept and instead T-72 regiments are being replaced. Or that T-72s are being moved from its current regiment (to make way for T-90S) and replacing what was previously a T-55 regiment.

We do need a more current ORBAT to discern what is taking place more accurately.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Oct 2010 20:17

chackojoseph wrote: Guys. I could be wrong. But, I will surely make up for this. Wait till I post some stuff in images thread. I was out clicking it.

Added later. ......For tank lovers.

Quick analysis of the Vijayanta in the pic - the formation sign on the tank is that of 18 Division - which is a RAPID. So, this tank was last with a RAPID and was subsequently phased out. Which would have been replaced with either T-55 or T-72.

CM, how old is that memorial? As in, when was it installed? Thanx.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 05 Oct 2010 20:41

rohitvats wrote: Quick analysis of the Vijayanta in the pic - the formation sign on the tank is that of 18 Division - which is a RAPID. So, this tank was last with a RAPID and was subsequently phased out. Which would have been replaced with either T-55 or T-72.

CM, how old is that memorial? As in, when was it installed? Thanx.

You mean CJ.

You know, I am trying to meet the parents of Capt. I will "try" to give you some details of the Tank if they give me. But, roughly in late 1990's. I should have seen the placards.

srai,

IMO, all T-55's ain't going and I don't see them going for sometime. IMO, some older T-72 are going.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Oct 2010 20:42

srai wrote: <SNIP> We do need a more current ORBAT to discern what is taking place more accurately.

It will be very difficult to ascertain the exact number of MBT type and number of Regiment of each type.

A more plausible approach can be to access the requirement of Armored Regiments and then see what course of action IA is likely to take.

Here is some calculation for reference -

3*Armored Divisions x 6* Armored Regiments = 18
8*(I) Armored Brigades x 3*Armored Regiments = 24
7*RAPID x 2*Armored Regiments = 14
2*Mechanized Brigades x 1*Armored Regiments = 2
11*Infantry Divisions x 1*Armored Regiments = 11

Total requirement - 69 Armored Regiments - This is the planned strength.

AFAIK, against the authorized strength of 63 Armored Regiments, IA had 59 or 60 Armored Regiments. So, with four (4) new raisings we'd reach the required level prior to 3 new Infantry Divisions being converted to RAPID.

We earlier had 4 RAPID Divisions, the planned number is 7. As per media gyaan, two have already converted while one is pending. So, over the earlier authorized strength of 63 Regiments, we'd need four (4) more Regiments.

MBT Regiments - It is highly likely that IA Armored Regiment strength will actually dip and then rise as Vijayantas are removed and T-90 are inducted. Also, some Regiments with older tanks (T-55/Vijayantas/T-72) will have very high number of tanks in reserve to make up for serviceability and maintain all up strength.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Oct 2010 02:22

chackojoseph wrote:
srai,

IMO, all T-55's ain't going and I don't see them going for sometime. IMO, some older T-72 are going.

This makes absolutely no sense to a layman. Why would you keep an obsolete tank and phase out a (comparitively) newer one. Can you or Rohit shed some light?

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 06 Oct 2010 03:01

This makes absolutely no sense to a layman. Why would you keep an obsolete tank and phase out a (comparitively) newer one. Can you or Rohit shed some light?

Nachiket: This is because some of the T-55s were upgraded in the mid-90s with a new gun ( 105 mm instead of the original 100mm) and new engines. The original batch of T-72s are therefore, for all practical purposes, older compared to the upgraded T-55s.

I also suspect that because the T-72 units were typically deployed in the strike formations, they would have been driven and operated far more than the T-55s which were primarily in the Infantry Divisions. Hence, the original batch of T-72s are really worn out.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 06 Oct 2010 07:25

There are at least 5 T-55 regiments around that I am aware of. The T-55 regiments have been converting to both T-72 and more recently T-90s, depending on availability. When I saw them 4-5 years ago EC's armoured regiment had given up its T-55s for T-72s. More recently, a buddy of mine was preparing his T-55 unit for conversion to T-90s.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 06 Oct 2010 07:30

Rohit, which are the two new RAPIDS?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Oct 2010 09:19

Rupak wrote:Rohit, which are the two new RAPIDS?

12 and 4 Infantry Divisions

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 06 Oct 2010 10:03

it makes sense to keep some t-55s around because they are true medium tanks.

Also afghanistan showed that the T-55s and T-62s are much better than the T-72 when it comes to really rugged mountainous terrain in terms of serviceability.

Decommissioned T-55s will probably be given the Tarmour APC upgrade . And given trends like the Namer APC worldwide, I think the APC conversion with the solid "block" on the hull will be given preference.

Lebanon 2006 showed that wheeled APCs just don't cut it as they can't carry enough armour.

SandeepS · Post by **SandeepS** » 06 Oct 2010 20:24

Each Med Regt used to have at least 2xVijayanta in Recce & OP role. Not sure whether they are still continuing with the same SOP or have adapted with access to better SATA - WLR, R&O flts, etc. In case they are still continuing with the same SOP, then some of these Med Regts might get a few hand-me-downs from mud corps. Though I struggle to understand what advantage an MBT will have over an APC or ICV in Recce role to survey and lay gun positions and in OP role to direct fire.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 07 Oct 2010 04:06

Thanks Rohit. Do we know the composition of the new RAPIDS, specifically which the new armoured brigades are? Are they new raisings or conversions?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 07 Oct 2010 13:16

Rupak wrote:Thanks Rohit. Do we know the composition of the new RAPIDS, specifically which the new armoured brigades are? Are they new raisings or conversions?

Rupak, the situation is pretty fluid and IMO, it is difficult to pinpoint the developments. I do not have definite answer to your question(s) but there are some plausible explanations -

(a) There will have to be new raisings of Armored brigades for a simple reason that we don't have any extra to spare. One can always amalgamate the existing (I) Armored Brigade of the Corps with new RAPID designate for quick conversion - but then again, the void will have to be filled up.

(b) As for the Armored Regiments in these brigades, the situation is not clear. We know that Armored Corps was deficient in strength prior to latest round of raisings - so, the latest raisings will simply bring Armored Corps to authorized level. However, additional demand placed on the AC like more RAPIDs means that we will continue to be deficient required number - we need 6 more Regiments to be raised to account for 3 new RAPIDS.

(c) So, the armored regiments for newer RAPIDS would have come from existing formations - which means some of the formation will continue to be deficient in strength for some time (till 6 newer raisings come up).

(d) Same is the case of Mechanized Regiments - We know OFB Jabalpur and Medhak are producing 200 new systems per annum. That is almost 4 Regiments worth. Accounting for replacement of BMP-I, I think we will have enough platforms for 6 newer MI Regiments in due course of time. Which further means that MR Regiment or Brigade of Guards will see increment in number of Battalions.

Hope this helps.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 08 Oct 2010 17:45

Thanks for your explanations, Rohit. I too suspect that (c) is the most likely scenerio.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Oct 2010 18:27

Rupak wrote:Thanks for your explanations, Rohit. I too suspect that (c) is the most likely scenerio.

You're welcome, Rupak.

You might want to check how many Regiments from a single Armored Division are to get colors.

http://netindian.in/news/2010/10/02/000 ... -regiments

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 08 Oct 2010 20:08

Yes, I saw the president's award of colours. What struck me was the absence of 85 Armoured Regt, which was also based at Babina (and AFAIK is also a T-90 regiment).

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Oct 2010 20:51

Rupak wrote:Yes, I saw the president's award of colours. What struck me was the absence of 85 Armoured Regt, which was also based at Babina (and AFAIK is also a T-90 regiment).

Rupak, are you sure that 85 AR is part of 31st Armored Division? Thanx.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 10 Oct 2010 23:38

I don't know if 85 AR is part of the divison, but recall them being based in Babina around 2008-09.

Added Later
See: http://www.aftdelhi.nic.in/benches/prin ... 042010.pdf

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Oct 2010 09:22

Rupak wrote:I don't know if 85 AR is part of the divison, but recall them being based in Babina around 2008-09.

Added Later
See: http://www.aftdelhi.nic.in/benches/prin ... 042010.pdf

Thank you for the news about 85 AR.

Armored Divisions were one of the candidates for lower strength - 5 as against 6 to compensate for newer requirements (RAPIDs). Guess, the 31 AD is upto speed....(if 85 AR is still there)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Oct 2010 09:28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_EVS1rs ... re=related

would this wheeled vehicle after removing the glass and replacing with armour be useful in tibet as a wheeled 'stryker brigade' of sorts, with
Namicas, Spyders and some SP artillery & mortar carriers for company ?

the AL stallion imo is a good vehicle for making stuff like wheeled mortar carriers and ZSU23-4 for ground attack role.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 12 Oct 2010 10:26

Singha,

I have seen a type of Vehicle being used by the UK forces in afghanistan (The name escapes me and google is not being very help full). Apparently, it has the turning circle of a land rover along with the road width of the same.

Looking at its Images & Videos quite often I have thought about converting the Stallion platform into an LRRP and direct action type vehicle by striping it of most of its cabin and adding a 50 cal or 14.5mm HMG along with modern ATGMs. The 4X4 cabability and the weight carrying capability of the vehicle makes it an ideal vehicle for the job. It will easily have a range of a 1000 kms and the space available will allow it to carry almost a ton of gear along with upto 7 fully armed men.

Will be very usefull in the senario envisiged by you.

JMT

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 12 Oct 2010 13:47

Pratyush,

You could try army-technology website...

Are you referring to any of these

a) Coyote - http://www.army-technology.com/projects/coyote/
b) TMV 6X6 - http://www.army-technology.com/projects/tmv6X6/

c) Mastiff - http://www.army-technology.com/projects/mastiff-2/

d) Husky - http://www.army-technology.com/projects/husky-tsv/
e) Cougar - http://www.army-technology.com/projects ... back2.html

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 12 Oct 2010 14:06

Manish,

Was talking of the Jackal.

Thanks

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 12 Oct 2010 21:03

Interesting concept, especialy the body evacuation at end.
Better than segway ripoffs

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 18 Oct 2010 22:08

The five units under the 'White Tiger' armoured division receiving the rare honour are 83, 12, 13, 15 and 19 Armoured Regiments in presence of Army chief General VK Singh and a host of other senior military officials

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_pr ... ow_1454424

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Oct 2010 20:23

A nice video on MBT Arjun.

[youtube]602U0PS1aiI&feature=related[/youtube]

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 24 Oct 2010 01:37

Then again apologies if posted earlier.

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfoc ... /oct10.pdf

Sweet!

but sweetest of all

1900 ICVs BMP-2/2K are in
service with the Indian Army and are
likely to remain operational till
An effort to modernise part of the
fleet to enhance the useful life is also
2017.
BMP-2
in progress Besides, Army has
projected requirements of approximately
2600 Futuristic ICVs (FICV) to
replace the existing fleet and also
to cater for force expansion/
restructuring.

Finally putting to rest years of "but but India has onlee 900 + BMP 2s".

so its 1900 BMP2s + 700 BMP 1s at the moment. with the latter on the verge of being retired given production of 200 BMP2s a year.

that 2600 figure totally tallies with the ATGM figures that were being worked out in the missile thread based on the 81,206 figure.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 24 Oct 2010 03:37

Thanks for the upate DRoy. Equally important is the fact that Abhay is meant as a technology development demonstrator. Puts to rest any speculations about it.

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 24 Oct 2010 06:14

Jaguar Land Rover launches armoured vehicles priced at Rs 4.75 crore

NEW DELHI: Tata Motors-owned Jaguar Land Rover launched the armoured range of its Range Rover and Discovery sports utility vehicles, with indicative prices of Rs 4.75 crore and Rs 3.75 crore respectively.

The company is also looking at launching the armoured version of Jaguar XJ sedan, which could be priced around Rs 5.5 crore.

"The armoured vehicles market is a very niche segment and we don't want to leave it out. We are launching these vehicles in India so that we have the complete range of offering here," Tata Motors Head, Premier Car Division Rohit Suri told reporters here.

Globally, the armoured vehicles market is estimated to be around 15,000 units annually but in India it is at a very nascent stage.

"We have just started exploring the market, we know there is some potential but it will be too premature to put a number on how many armoured vehicles we intend to sell in India," Suri said.

He said depending on the customisation levels, the price of the vehicles could vary but the Range Rover and Discovery sports utility vehicles will have indicative prices of Rs 4.75 crore and Rs 3.75 crore respectively.

This is in contrast to the price of normal Range Rover, which costs Rs 1.06 crore and Discovery that is pegged at Rs 63 lakh (ex-showroom Delhi).

Suri said Tata Motors and JLR are currently working on assembling some products from Land Rover in India in order to meet demands in India. He, however declined to comment on details stating "it is a work in progress at the moment".

On the overall sales of JLR, Suri said the company had sold 242 units last fiscal and this year it is doing "several times better" without disclose details and target.

He said JLR is on a network expansion drive with plans to have about 8-9 dealers in India by the end of this fiscal from the current four.

"The plan is to enter cities like Bangalore, Chennai Kochi and Kokata," Suri said, adding one dealership in Ludhiana will open soon.

Specs found from internet

• Advanced 5L V8 Naturally Aspirated engine
• Uprated suspension, handling and braking system
• Compliant with B6 ballistic level of protection
• Side blast and under floor grenade protection
• Independent ballistic and blast certification by QinetiQ
• Available in both left-hand and right-hand drive
• Wheels fitted with run-flat tyre system
• Full Land Rover Warranty

Quite sure market will be good for such vehicles.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 24 Oct 2010 08:56

If we need new and next gen AFV then why there is no news reports on follow up for Abhay project. Is BMP II not an old design?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 25 Oct 2010 16:52

Rohit,
You had asked me couple of years back whether 125 mm Mk2 ammo was successful and entered service. I didn’t want to answer that question then, but you have your answer here -

tushar_m wrote:ARMY EXPO AT RAIPUR CG