MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Dec 2010 09:24

I thought Dassault systemes (maybe their catia sw side) has a office in JP Nagar ring road near the mantri flats junction with bannerghatta road. said to have frightening level of IT security.
Areva power trans has a facility on the road to BIAL.
Airbus has a IDC in blr, not sure where ...
ATR has some kind of office - maybe a service center for the ATR72s here...formerly it was next to mainland china in domlur, now its moved.
http://www.airbus.com/en/careers/opport ... als/india/
Cap-Gemini is ramping up in BLR ORR (rmz ecospace)
Renault has plans to bring in some cars...

these are the only french cos I have seen around here. we have to understand that france is a much smaller economy and defence budget than Massa, so their dassault/snecma/eads share is a tiny fraction of LM/Ngrumann/Boeing/GE/PW/general dynamics/raytheon/ATK/honeywell/sikorsky....Massa feeds its MIL with $100b minimum capex every yr without fail.

Massa spends more capex/annum than the next 10 nations put together (barring perhaps China).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Dec 2010 09:31

our best bets in offsets are likely DCNM for large ships & nuclear subs (if we want to second source beyond Fincantieri italians), Areva, Airbus, EADS, Snecma, Dassault, Thales...the list is short.

we are already in bed with Thales & EADS, Airbus has a engg center , Areva and Snecma-eco-core.....just a question of more love making perhaps.

vcsekhar · Post by **vcsekhar** » 06 Dec 2010 13:13

Rahul M wrote: thanks you for the effort.
if it is a basic 360 turn by the missile based on target info from launching aircraft then I believe the R-73 has this too. as should all modern CCMs.
the way the video was projected I felt as if the missile could detect all around it which was surprising.

I am not too sure about the R73 capability, maybe it can do this too. The guys that I know, don't have the R73 on their planes, so i don't know for sure. But I have shown similar python 5 videos to my friends and they were not terribly impressed

These new gen missiles are known as A4M's (All aspect air to air missiles) and they train for interception in all aspects not just in tail on or head on. But there are a lot of issues and probability theory that goes into this type of missile launch, ex, if the trajectory of the targeted aircraft changes significantly after the target info has been transferred to the missile the seeker may not be able to find it after it has been released. So nothing is as easy as it seems like in most cases

pm me for any more details.

nike · Post by **nike** » 06 Dec 2010 13:20

A very good morning from BRF newbie, I have been a regular reader of BR threads especially MRCA

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Dec 2010 13:37

welcome to BR.

nike · Post by **nike** » 06 Dec 2010 16:49

I have a question for BRFites, is wikileaks going to affect the MRCA selection for (US teens), specially after selection of US engines for LCA

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Dec 2010 17:06

context: politics-
wikileaks may not affect the MRCA selection as much as CISMOA type agreements and other technology transfer and life support agreements. It is a matter of fact, that IAF has already given its liking to the selection group of Indian politicians (babooze) and their committee members.

Now, make them happy if you want teens to win. That may perhaps also mean, US may not push buttons from washington on Delhi politics and policies governing the zone. Where do you think US stands on this?

Furthermore there is no emphatic sounds from DC on the technology transfer, and in the history of american sales, nothing of this sort has been done. So there goes your riders.

Sandeep_ghosh · Post by **Sandeep_ghosh** » 06 Dec 2010 20:07

Dear BR Friends,

After following this thread for about last 3 months months, If Euro Fighter Typhoon/Rafale (High probability) does win the mmrca bids, how many a/c's will be produced per year?

As far as I know, HAL nasik division is fully occupied with MKI production and HAL Banglore division should be starting full scale production of LCA/AJT. In that case, will the new MMRCA have a dedicated manufacturing unit or as an additional line on existing factories?

How many years will it take to fulfill the 126 aircrafts needed?

Also off topic do we need an additional line of LCA to make up for the delay in production by rapid commissioning ??

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 06 Dec 2010 22:03

Rahul M wrote: if it is a basic 360 turn by the missile based on target info from launching aircraft then I believe the R-73 has this too. as should all modern CCMs.
the way the video was projected I felt as if the missile could detect all around it which was surprising.

Rahul ji, Neither Rafael nor any authentic material put any number as FoV for Python-5. Whereas we know Python-4 has 90 deg FoV. From the promo clip as one can see, for a Python-4 which has 90 deg FoV, covers half sphere, i.e. 180 deg circle.

So for a missile to cover a full sphere,360 deg, the missile has to have higher FoV than Python-4 or overall improved capabilities (mentioned by Rafael as seeker, LOAL, tracking) from Python-4.

As vcsekhar pointed out, these all aspect missiles can/has to do 180 deg turn. But 180 deg turn doesn't guarantee a full sphere or half sphere engagement. Even a missile with 60 deg FoV can do a 180 deg turn as the target continuously moves in opp. direction. R73 version is reported to have 60 deg FoV and can engage targets in 120 deg sphere; it can do 180 deg turn.

A Python-4, can engage any targets, if it is within the 180 sphere as it continues to seek the target based on LOAL update. And for Python-5 there is no such restriction as it is claimed. IOW, the launching aircraft can launch the missile as late as possible, without compromising on the lethality of the missile.

It is reported that Americans improved their AIM-9 missile, based on their exposure to Python family of missiles.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Dec 2010 23:54

Sandeep_ghosh wrote:Dear BR Friends,

After following this thread for about last 3 months months, If Euro Fighter Typhoon/Rafale (High probability) does win the mmrca bids, how many a/c's will be produced per year?

As far as I know, HAL nasik division is fully occupied with MKI production and HAL Banglore division should be starting full scale production of LCA/AJT. In that case, will the new MMRCA have a dedicated manufacturing unit or as an additional line on existing factories?

How many years will it take to fulfill the 126 aircrafts needed?

Also off topic do we need an additional line of LCA to make up for the delay in production by rapid commissioning ??

In most probability the first few years will see SKDs (Semi knocked-down kits) that are basically large modules (a bunch of assemblies together) alongwith instructions on how to put them together. Then, they will move on to CKDs (Completely knocked-down kits) where instead of sending fully assembled modules, they will send parts themselves to be assembled together. But all of this is basically screw-driver and rivet type work. Simultaneously, they'll be building up capability to manufacture the entire aircraft from raw materials up. That will require transfer of hundreds of tools/jigs, thousands of drawings/specifications, etc. Slowly they'll start indigenising and after they've mastered all this, they will move to fully indigenous manufacture.

the first 18 aircraft will be supplied directly from the OEM, so that leaves 108 aircraft to be assembled and built in India. If the IAF wants a compressed schedule of say 6 years in which it wants all the aircraft inducted, then that means 18 aircraft per year from the first year itself. But that is going to be a stretch (at least in the first 2 years) unless everything goes exactly as per plan. And from the Hawk experience we know that is difficult. So expect 6-10 or so in the first year and the remainder staggered among the rest of the years.

HAL had mentioned shifting the IJT Sitara production to HAL Kanpur, so that assembly space can be freed up in Bangalore, where the MRCA is to be built. There is an existing facility for the Hawks and that will continue to build Hawks till they finish delivering the latest 57 ordered as well. HAL's Jaguar assembly line is idle and will most likely be devoted to the MRCA. Keep in mind that for both HAL and IAF the MRCA is a priority item, so they will make sure there are no hiccups due to lack of space at HAL Bangalore.

Tejas will eventually need a larger assembly line I suppose than the one it has now. But with a small 40 Tejas Mk1 order on hand, they will not devote any more space or create new infrastructure unless the IAF orders more.

Basically they will build 8 per year (first 8 LSP Tejas Mk1s should be handed over in March next year) and ramp up to 12 per year.

That means that in 2011, they'll build 8 Tejas Mk1s, in 2012 they'll build 12, allowing the first squadron (20 Tejas Mk1) to be at full strength. In 2013, they'll build 12 and by 2014, they'd have supplied the remaining 8 to complete the second batch of 20 as well. Then they'll start work on the remaining Tejas Mk2 prototypes because the Tejas Mk2 is only going to come into squadron service around 2015-16 or so. Even the Indian Navy's N-LCA's are not going to be F-404 powered, so while NP1 and NP2 prototypes fly and validate the basic flight parameters and maybe do some captive landing trials at the new carrier mockup runway in Dabolim, HAL and ADA will be working on a re-engined N-LCA. Production for these N-LCAs may only begin in 2013 or 2014 after the F-414IN56 has been tested on board the N-LCA for around 100 flights or so, clearing the full envelope. After all, the contract with GE for F-414IN56 is not yet signed and will take another 5-6 months before signature. After that GE has to develop this India-specific highest thrust version of the F-414 and then sometime in 2013, give a few test examples to HAL to test fit and then test fly.

Now a few posters on this forum keep on cribbing about how HAL is not building them fast enough (one has even used such a ridiculous example as the Boeing 737, which has such a huge backlog that to compare it to a 40 order Tejas is plain stupid). But the fact is this- that HAL will only build as many as it economically can. They will not spend on more jigs, more fixtures, more tools, dies, more manpower, if the customer, ie. the IAF does not want more than just 2 squadrons till 2014. In a Parliamentary Defence Committee report, it was clearly stated that HAL could build upto 20 Tejas per year if required, but the current production rate and schedule was agreed upon with the IAF. If they build 20 per year then they'll have an idle line from 2012 onwards and then what do they do with the investment they've made in the equipment, tools, trained manpower, etc.?

A similar situation exists in France where Dassault only builds around 11 Rafales per year, which is the least amount it HAS to build to keep the line going and not make a loss. Dassault had already invested in setting up an assembly line, all the tools and fixtures, etc. and it was expected that they'd be supplying them at much more than 11 per year. But with budget cuts, the French govt. cannot afford more per year and Dassault cannot make any less than 11 per year since it has already invested in building at least that many per year, which makes an export order a necessity.

Sandeep_ghosh · Post by **Sandeep_ghosh** » 07 Dec 2010 01:24

thanks Kartik

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Dec 2010 02:11

Kartik, another of your wow posts. I don't miss reading your posts.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 07 Dec 2010 02:51

Thanks Saik.

I must backup what I stated about the ability of HAL to produce more than 8 Tejas per year. This is from the

Also, I was wrong about the Hawk and Tejas's dates. On further investigation, I found the production schedule for the Hawk and also the Tejas Mk1. HAL would build 1 Hawk in 2007-8 and then build 14 Hawks in 2008-9, going to 24 Hawks in 2009-10 and finally finishing off with 3 in 2010-11.

With the 57 new Hawks ordered, HAL could continue to build Hawks at the same pace as 2009-10 (24 per year), but even assuming that they reduce production rates to 18 per year, they will finish the second batch of 57 Hawks in 2014. That will then allow them to divert all the relevant resources (manpower, various production machines) to the MRCA and Tejas Mk2 production.

Tejas Mk1 production dates are as follows:
For first batch whose contract was signed in 2006-
2009-10 - 8 (including 1 trainer)
2010-11 - 8 (including 2 trainers)
2011-12 - 4 (including 1 trainer)

Second batch of 20 Tejas
2011-12 - 4
2012-13 - 8
2013-14 - 8 (second batch completed)

And this was the statement made by reps of the MoD regarding Lines of Production in HAL,
"He further stated that:
"As far as bringing the LCA into our planning process is concerned, I assure you that this homework has already been done. We are very clear about the rate at which the LCA is going to be inducted into the Air Force. However, the milestones that are there need to be crossed, whether it is with regard to engine or the radar or the weaponisation of the aircraft. They are the teeth to the aircraft. We are watching that very closely. As regards induction, we have even decided with the HAL as to what stage the aircraft will get ramped up from 8 to 14 and from 14 to 20, so that the per year production can increase substantively."

So, there- when there will be orders, the production CAN be ramped up to 20. There is no other impediment. I hope this stops the constant refrain of some posters about how slowly HAL is building the Tejas. The IAF has to be happy enough to order more and then HAL can go ahead and increase its production rate.

The Standing Committee on Defence also recommended that "the facilities created by HAL should be put for optimum use before any such further investment is made in such projects. For this, the Committee desire that the firm order for the manufacture of the required number of LCA should be given to HAL by the Air Force."

So, Tejas Mk2 prototypes and Tejas Navy (with F414) fighters will be additional to the list above. My guess is that as the program picks up momentum, more money will be used from the funding recently provided, to increase the production rates further to cater for the prototype and Tejas Navy fighters as well.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 07 Dec 2010 04:47

Germany Offers India Joint Defence Production for Third-Party Sale

Germany Offers India Joint Defence Production for Third-Party Sale
Indo Asian News Service (IANS)
Mon, Dec 6

New Delhi, Dec 6 (IANS) Pitching hard to grab lucrative defence deals worth billions of dollars, Germany Monday said it has offered India provisions for forgoing an end user monitoring agreement and transfer of technology in joint production of military hardware for third-party sale in future.

'Germany offers Technology Transfer on a Broader Scale. We Want to Offer you perhaps more than competitors. We want to Offer you Full Technology Transfer. We offer you to Forego the End-User Monitoring Agreement,' Matussek said about the offer that even India's close partners like the US insist on.

The EUMA allows the selling party to periodically carry out an inspection and inventory of all articles transferred to India.

Matussek said Germany Wanted to Develop Military Hardware 'Together with India also for Later on Sale to Third Countries'.

He said Germany's Eurofighter is a bidder for the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) together with three European partners namely Britain, Spain and Italy.

'What we are offering is a cutting-edge product. We stand ready to work together with India (for this) platform in future. That means this is not only an offer for sale but a Long-Term Technological Cooperation,' the envoy said.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Dec 2010 05:47

From 60 percent ToT to full transfer. I do not know from where they would compensate in terms of "reduced sale price" that they have to do a 126 fighter for $10-12b [95m per puppy - hopefully weapons integration and initial spares covered]. Still, that is indeed an awesome price-for-feature value considering pak-fa at the same range, but that would come 10 years from now is nice. I am not sure what is Rafale's response to this third party sale.

It must be that the more they produce, lesser is the manufacturing cost, and they must be near break even. Considering a fine future partnership, this is good.

Now, we shall see how khans and their component supplied a/cs react as well. Very interesting indeed.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 07 Dec 2010 06:01

NEW DELHI: “It would be a scandal if two years from now, the Security Council of the United Nations were not to have space for India.” These words, spoken by French President Nicolas Sarkozy to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and top Indian Ministers behind closed doors on Monday provided the political content to a visit that has cemented the close relationship the two countries have as economic and nuclear partners. Where Barack Obama's endorsement last month of India's UNSC ambitions seemed scripted and half-hearted, Mr. Sarkozy's words, a senior Minister told The Hindu, were spontaneous and “came straight from the heart.”….

During a 90-minute interaction, the two leaders touched on areas such as defence, infrastructure, energy, space, research and development, and joint ventures where cooperation could be stepped up…..
……

In the area of defence, in spite of the presence of the CEOs of most major French armament companies, no agreement could be sealed.

“We are going to sign the agreement soon. We are delighted that India places trust in us,” Mr. Sarkozy said of the long-pending agreement to upgrade the Indian Air Force's (IAF) Mirage fighters.

He pitched for the French fighter Rafale, which is one of the six competitors for a mega IAF tender for fighter planes. He also offered to cooperate with India in developing a fifth generation fighter aircraft.

Dr. Singh, in his opening remarks, termed France “India's most important and reliable defence partner,” and acknowledged its supply of advanced defence technologies to the Indian armed forces.

article link

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Dec 2010 07:02

Perhaps Sarkozy should be reminded "trust" is only one aspect in the big scheme of big deals. Good offer, but nothing sparkling compared to EADS reports.

India btw, will watch arms sale to pakistan - JF17 avionics and missiles, submarines, and other chin-pak deals that may be already drafted, and concealed till India signs up for the Rafale.

Let us hope MoD comes out with a plan and execute per merits.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 07 Dec 2010 07:31

it doesn't look likely that the French will be selling any weapons or avionics for the JF-17, if the recent reports from Zhuhai are to be considered as being correct. They said that the Chinese SD-10 will be the main BVR weapon of the JF-17 and its avionics will also continue to be Chinese. They are even talking about a JF-17 Block II with a swashplate AESA radar. The French have no such offering as of now, so it might be a Chinese radar or Selex ? My guess is that the Pakis put forth the begging bowl (please give us credit, no cash right now) and the French weren't interested. Anyway, expensive French weapons and avionics would've taken away the single biggest point about the JF-17- its price. If its expensive it cannot compete against Gripen/MiG-29s/second hand F-16s and that will hit their plans big time.

Same probably goes with the Merlin sub as compared to what the Chinese may offer at discounted rates alongwith easy credit options. The performance may be lower, but they'll be used to it now since most of their recent purchases are from China.

vardhank · Post by **vardhank** » 07 Dec 2010 08:42

Juggi G wrote:Germany Offers India Joint Defence Production for Third-Party Sale

Germany Offers India Joint Defence Production for Third-Party Sale
Indo Asian News Service (IANS)
Mon, Dec 6

New Delhi, Dec 6 (IANS) Pitching hard to grab lucrative defence deals worth billions of dollars, Germany Monday said it has offered India provisions for forgoing an end user monitoring agreement and transfer of technology in joint production of military hardware for third-party sale in future.

'Germany offers Technology Transfer on a Broader Scale. We Want to Offer you perhaps more than competitors. We want to Offer you Full Technology Transfer. We offer you to Forego the End-User Monitoring Agreement,' Matussek said about the offer that even India's close partners like the US insist on.

The EUMA allows the selling party to periodically carry out an inspection and inventory of all articles transferred to India.

Matussek said Germany Wanted to Develop Military Hardware 'Together with India also for Later on Sale to Third Countries'.

He said Germany's Eurofighter is a bidder for the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) together with three European partners namely Britain, Spain and Italy.

'What we are offering is a cutting-edge product. We stand ready to work together with India (for this) platform in future. That means this is not only an offer for sale but a Long-Term Technological Cooperation,' the envoy said.

Lovely to see everyone gyrating their hips so furiously to get India's attention, while we lie back like a good Bollywood villain, sniff the gajra tied to our wrist, and say, "Naacho!" Sweet position to be in

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 07 Dec 2010 08:56

all fake promises.

Transfer of Technology (TOT) is one of those useless buzzwords thrown around whenever there are arms to be sold to the third world.

In the end, screw driver turning is about all one learns. The brains of foreign scientists (where the real technology is locked up) cannot be downloaded into the brains of Indian scientists & engineers. That they acquired by *doing* not handing over bags of money to foreign countries.

kit · Post by **kit** » 07 Dec 2010 09:20

Neshant wrote:all fake promises.

Transfer of Technology (TOT) is one of those useless buzzwords thrown around whenever there are arms to be sold to the third world.

In the end, screw driver turning is about all one learns. The brains of foreign scientists (where the real technology is locked up) cannot be downloaded into the brains of Indian scientists & engineers. That they acquired by *doing* not handing over bags of money to foreign countries.

Right., it would also stymie indigenous effort.The armed forces wont care to put their weight behind an indigenous solution if they can get an equivalent foreign item off the shelf.Just like being offered the Patriot ABM once the desi ABM comes successful in tests.or even technology for the crystal blade when a Kaveri eventually powers a Tejas.

kit · Post by **kit** » 07 Dec 2010 09:23

That said I think on the positive side it would greatly speed up an indigenous solution if efforts are already under way in earnest for a technological product.Witness the AEW&C solution.

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 07 Dec 2010 10:11

Even if there is some truth to the offering of the Eurofigher, then it seems to have far ahead of the competetion in the race. With french and US made happy and PAKFA going to Russia, UN seat seems to be the dangling carrot which Germany and UK would be more than willing to give lip service to and might even vote in favour. So Eurofighter seems like the one gong to make the cut.

Also with recent prize money being distributed, seems like India is trying to buy itself into the warm embrace of the west - well India can afford it now and others want it.

nike · Post by **nike** » 07 Dec 2010 10:30

Full TOT for EF, does it contain engine technology

?

koti · Post by **koti** » 07 Dec 2010 14:09

^^ It should.
But there are several other components like AESA that are more important for us to get ToT for.
Full ToT will be only on paper in practice.

koti · Post by **koti** » 07 Dec 2010 14:13

Is there a clause in MMRCA contract that gives us right for resale of the AC?
Apart from the Mig, I think no other company would allow us into anything like that.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Dec 2010 14:15

industrial partnership is different to ToT - i believe that there is much to be learned about industrial engineering from the other companies in the consortium. my read on HAL/DRDO is that we are good at the 'science' but not there yet in terms of the 'engineering'. being a 'partner' in such a consortium is of strategic benefit to the mil-eng complex. a longer term strategy would be parallel to the automotive industry, where increasingly more and more manufacturing comes to india

besides, who on earth would ever give proper ToT like jingos salivate about? if x makes you money and no one else knows it, why will you let someone else learn how to make x? i wouldnt

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 07 Dec 2010 14:47

Wikileaks Cablegate : Indian air force had decided to drop French Rafale from MMRCA comptetions
Frontier India

koti · Post by **koti** » 07 Dec 2010 15:02

The report also claims the competition to be between American, Russian and Swedish firms.(Where is EF?)

And IMO the leaked document is obsolete. Rafale was back into competition little later thanks to French diplomatic efforts and also successfully completed the IAF trails.

nike · Post by **nike** » 07 Dec 2010 15:09

another US propoganda

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Dec 2010 15:33

Watch the propaganda war really heating up during Aero-India 2011 It may be open warfare by then! You will see various elements of the media batting for the Yanqui twins,while some will be fighting with the French Foreign legion,another team kicking the ball for EADS,a small number will be seducing babus for the Swedish babe,while Natasha will have her usual supporters en masse! I suggets that BR has a fashion show/competition for the best babe of the show -and I'm not talking about birds that fly! I'm sure a suitable prize could be arranged.Judges to be Shiv,Kersi-he's a longtime Aero-India lurker,yours truly,plus any other volunteers,numbers not more than 5.It shouldn't be aproblem getting the media to feature a pic of the winning babe!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Dec 2010 15:51

aah phillip-ji, welcome to the world of lal-chix!

nike · Post by **nike** » 07 Dec 2010 17:06

Obama, sarkozy, mededav (PAK FA) each one has got it's share

. So now EADS and SAAB left, would be interesting to watch wat our babooze thinking about them

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 07 Dec 2010 17:18

saab have already got the coastal radar contract

nike · Post by **nike** » 07 Dec 2010 17:34

Philip wrote:Watch the propaganda war really heating up during Aero-India 2011 It may be open warfare by then! You will see various elements of the media batting for the Yanqui twins,while some will be fighting with the French Foreign legion,another team kicking the ball for EADS,a small number will be seducing babus for the Swedish babe,while Natasha will have her usual supporters en masse! I suggets that BR has a fashion show/competition for the best babe of the show -and I'm not talking about birds that fly! I'm sure a suitable prize could be arranged.Judges to be Shiv,Kersi-he's a longtime Aero-India lurker,yours truly,plus any other volunteers,numbers not more than 5.It shouldn't be aproblem getting the media to feature a pic of the winning babe!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Dec 2010 17:44

How the wheel of fate turns full circle! During the last Century,in the age of the Indian maharajahs,the salesmen from Rolls-Royce wuld wait for months patiently outside the Maharajah's palace waiting for an appointment for orders.These days,the successor to our maharajahs,our much beloved be-turbanned cnstable,is feted not just by firang salesmen but by their bosses as well! Had I been in the shoes of constable Singh,I would've commanded a "fight to the finish",with weapons,not training exercises,between the rival contenders and watched the event from the ramparts of my fort! At the very least ,in order that blood not be shed,we could've had the usual system of evaluating the winner in air combat exercises.This would've brought out the best from the avian gladiators,a veritable feast for the eyes to behold!

PS:I'm willing to throw into the "hamper" for the winning babe a bottle of expensive French perfume and even a bottle of fine Grover La Reserva.I'm sure we can rustle up an exotic selection of Indian cosmetics (Biotique/Himalaya,etc.,),fagrant (massage) oils,accompanied with massuer (He!He!),aromatic incense and even some Mysore Silk (under) garments,trial fitting also thrown in for good measure.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 07 Dec 2010 18:04

The US cables also contended that the Rafale had "a high level of US content" -- and said the French bid could be undermined by telling Brazil that technology transfer of that jet was partially dependent on US approval.

http://www.swedishwire.com/component/co ... its-answer

This issue of "US parts in all indigenous aircrafts in the race and their export restrictions" is a major one. Seems like the only aircraft in the race that is free of any US parts is the Mig-35. The above logic can be used for every other bird in the race. Grrr.. Bloody arm twisting this.

I found this on one of the other forums (so not sure to take it for its word but the response, to a letter written to EF team, came from VP himself) - 'Wolfdietrich Hoeveler; Vice President Communications - Eurofighter GmbH' had this to say in response to a question on similar lines..

Dear Madam or Sir,

on the discussion forums of Key Publishing there has been lively debate regarding intellectual property held by US companies or the US government that currently might be utilized in the Eurofighter. Of main interest was the question whether the Eurofighter can be exported without US approval, and if not, which parts require US permission. Additionally, as relating to competitions like the MMRCA competition in India, we wondered about how this compares and relates to the Rafale for example and whether there are obvious key parts in the Rafale and other competitors that might require US approval as well.

An answer illuminating these matters would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much for your interest in the Eurofighter Typhoon. Of course there are many parts of the Eurofighter that are sourced in the USA. But this holds true for many other civil and military aircraft as well. Just that the issue of export approval by the USA does not present itself the way it is often reported to the public.

The export approvals of US parts in their respective constructions fall under the responsibility of those external suppliers, who source such parts in the US. This has worked well in the past. Should such approval not be given, then the supplier has to obtain the parts someplace else or produce them on their own. A general export approval by the USA regarding the aircraft as a whole is not needed. I cannot tell the quantity of American parts in the Eurofighter, except for this issue being no obstacle to exporting the aircraft to India.

nike · Post by **nike** » 07 Dec 2010 18:17

Apart from mig, every aircraft consist of US contents. Then why not choose Gripen NG, a cheaper option(compare to Rafale & EF). Gripen+Metor would be a deadly combination(we have US engines too).Sweden can assist in faster development of LCA( AESA & other components). Not only this, collaboration with sweden can open a lot of JV in (Tank, artillery) between India and Sweden. Sweden is a small country, but it has expertise in lot of areas, why are we not milking those opportunities to achieve the goal of self dependency. India would be having western tech and then there would be no (or minimal)compalins from Army or AF. We can take this collaboration further in AMCA

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Dec 2010 22:03

No point wasting tax payer money on collaborations, and what is the point of it other than giving more money for some firangone to keep holding on to the deep secrets?

DRDO labs must do everything all by themselves for any indigenous product development. Let them take time, and that is fine and as long as they can do it. This is one the reasons I feel we must persist with Kaveri versions.

Now on the Elta joint ventures, it is the same feeling as well. Else, DRDO should really say it out loud that they failed or can't do this for collaborations. It is okay as a stop gap arrangements on the failing projects to meet deadlines, and definitely not on a planned collaboration venture with SAAB for AMCA.

SAAB having fun with hard earned Indian money!?

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 07 Dec 2010 22:31

How much will Rafael cost ? I am asking because today I read that 51 Mirage will be upgraded for $ 3 billion. I thought for $5 Billion we would had newer fighters itself