Indian Naval Discussion

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 12 Dec 2010 12:04

What happened to the second Shivalik class frigate? Wasn't it supposed to be commissioned in Dec2010.2011 we should have 2 more frigates Teg and Satpura.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 12 Dec 2010 13:03

I do not agree with Srai on the projected blue water fleet numbers for 2022.

DDG : the Rajputs are undergoing a deep refurbishment and at least two of them will remain active even in 2022.

All major shipyards are undergoing modernization and modular construction techniques will ensure that in the next decade we do not see a repeat of what we saw in the 2000-2009 period. neither can we afford to. Both the Navy and Policy makers know this.

basically all P-15 Bs will be built by 2022.

so the DDG numbers are : 3 Delhi + 3 Kolkata + 4 P-15 B + 2 Rajput = 12 DDGs

FFG : All 7 P-17As will be operational by 2022 - 4 from MDL and 3 from GRSE.

Pipavav is likely to get an order to build 4 more FFGs of Russian origin could be either Talwar follow on or Project 22350.

So FFG numbers: 7 P-17A + 3 P-17 + 6 Talwar + 4 Pipavav + 3 Brahmaputra - 23 FFGs. the three Godavaris will probably be retired although they are also undergoing heavy refit.

So 35 and not 26.

SSN/SSBN - 3 is very conservative and does not include transfers from Russia.

And I definitely do not agree with the average 500 million dollar price he is estimating.

Its more like double of that. Just look at the project cost for the P-15B and P-17 A. Anything in 4000-8000 tonne category is coming in for a minimum of 7500 crores now.

Not to mention the Carriers and the SSNs. those are going to cost a hell of a lot if we want to make them contemporary, even with our lower labour costs. Productivity has to be enhanced.

And since we are including them in the average , the figure will much beyond 500 million.

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 12 Dec 2010 13:35

IN is also dividing up the order between different shipyards for larger orders. Out of the seven P17A ordered, 4 will be build in one shipyard and the other 3 in a different shipyard. Similarly with P-75A deal, 2-3 will be build in OEM, 2-3 in MDL, and 1 in another shipyard.

Aint all these supposed to be under the open bidding policy that kicks in, in Jan that will treat the PSU's and Pvt companies equally? or is that all just on paper and newsbites??????

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 12 Dec 2010 13:40

MDL will build the 15B's. God know when IN can commission the first of 15B's.

Any updates on status of Kolkata , P-28, rest of Shivalik class ?

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 12 Dec 2010 14:00

2nd Shivalik will be commissioned in March 2011. 3rd Shivalik by late 2011.

First Kolkata - end 2012.

First Kamorta class - mid 2012.

But ships will get built much quicker after these tranches are completed.

with the time between launch to commissioning reduced to 18 months and from being laid down to commissioning - 48 months.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Dec 2010 21:42

From Livefist
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/12/f- ... craft.html
F-35 in an artist's redition? Booboo or daydreams?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 12 Dec 2010 21:47

^^
I hope that you read the whole article?
http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/i ... ept_lg.jpg

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 12 Dec 2010 21:48

the Idiot has presented the early concept of CVF as the IAC.......

DDM

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 12 Dec 2010 22:11

Before shooting the messenger, it might be worthwhile noting that the image came from the Indian Navy's own document: http://indiannavy.nic.in/NavalAvnWebsite/005Mother-TheFlatTop.pdf

sombhat · Post by **sombhat** » 12 Dec 2010 22:14

Nice to see dhruvs in IN service. Wish they ordered more.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 12 Dec 2010 22:17

PratikDas wrote:Before shooting the messenger, it might be worthwhile noting that the image came from the Indian Navy's own document: http://indiannavy.nic.in/NavalAvnWebsite/005Mother-TheFlatTop.pdf

If the docment is official and not the project report of a cadet. Then the guy who approved it and the guy who wrote that report deserve a censure at the minimum.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 12 Dec 2010 22:42

^^^ Agreed!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Dec 2010 22:43

Indian Navy displays operational capabilities for the city of Kochi

I am doing the image gallery for this. will link in some minutes.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Dec 2010 23:28

Indian Navy Kochi Demo 2010

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 13 Dec 2010 00:10

Brahmos work complete

He said BrahMos scientists are now waiting for the Su-30MKI aircraft to be provided by Indian Air Force to act as a platform for testing the aerial version while a specially designed submerged vehicle will be used for trial of the submarine version.

As far as I know the submarines where the missiles are likely to be integrated will be manufactured in India. The missile is ready for installations

What is this submerged vehicle? is he referring to a submerged pontoon?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Dec 2010 00:48

A 2009 artists impression had F-15s.

That guy, who approved it, has resurfaced again.

Sigh.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 13 Dec 2010 00:49

Juggi G wrote:Russian Govt may give us Order Worth Rs 30,000-32,000: Nikhil Gandhi, Chairman, Pipavav Shipyard

Prospect of contract from Russian government fails to lift Pipavav Shipyard

Thats one outrageously funny interview. Just shows how ignorant(and or plain dumb) the journalists are in defense related even defense industry/business subject. All Mr Gandhi is trying to say is that they have an agreement with the Russians that if they win the tender for frigates in which they would required to build them in India, then Pipavav Shipyard would be building them. The questions go something like this..
-" so you bagged an order worth Rs 8000 crore from the Russian Government?"
.....
-"is it necessary that the Russian arm will select India as a country in which these ships would be built or they can also go to other geographies?" (WTF?)
......
-"Just to get it simply put, is it certain that Pipavav Shipyard in the next 3 months or 6 months would get an order to the size of Rs 8000 crore, Rs 16000 crore or possibly even Rs 32000 crore?"
....
-"It is not certain that Pipavav Shipyard would get the order (only now does he/she realize that Pipavav may not have actually got any sort of contract/order, so what could be the likely reason? hmm... the reason must be ..)because the orders may not come to India at all, they may go to some other geographies as well(of course that must be it, the Russians will supply ships to the Indian Navy if they win the contract and ask some third country to build them , no?); right, just to get a clarification? "
-"<..one more silly question...>"(nope, it still hasn't dawned on the correspondent that Pipavav hasn't really got any contract or order of any sort, even after 4 out of 6 of Mr Gandhi answers started with the words 'No' )

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Dec 2010 02:49

D Roy wrote:I do not agree with Srai on the projected blue water fleet numbers for 2022.

You make it sound like a total disagreement ... but upon reading your post, I don't think our number are that far apart. It is more like we agree on 90% of the things and differ on the 10%.

D Roy wrote: DDG : the Rajputs are undergoing a deep refurbishment and at least two of them will remain active even in 2022.
...
so the DDG numbers are : 3 Delhi + 3 Kolkata + 4 P-15 B + 2 Rajput = 12 DDGs

I have doubts about the last two Rajputs (Kashin II) still in service in 2022. The last two were inducted in 1986 and 1988 respectively. This means by 2022 they would be 36 and 34 years old. You can expect a vessel to serve typically for around 30 years (or bit longer only if in dire straits as in the case of Viraat whose replacement is not coming until 2013). It is more likely the P-15A and P-15B are replacing the 5 Rajputs.

D Roy wrote: ...

Pipavav is likely to get an order to build 4 more FFGs of Russian origin could be either Talwar follow on or Project 22350.

So FFG numbers: 7 P-17A + 3 P-17 + 6 Talwar + 4 Pipavav + 3 Brahmaputra - 23 FFGs. the three Godavaris will probably be retired although they are also undergoing heavy refit.

...

As far as the 4 more FFGs of Russian origin, this is just pure speculation at this point. Before this speculation, there was a similar story few years back about a follow-on order for 3 more Talwar with Russian shipyards. This did not happen. There is nothing confirmed as yet. I would not add those on the 2022 project list just as yet. We have to wait on this.

You are right about the 3 P-16A Brahmaputra class still in service in 2022.

D Roy wrote: SSN/SSBN - 3 is very conservative and does not include transfers from Russia.

Akula is being transferred on a 10-year lease and is about to be handed over to the IN early next year. So by 2021, the 10-year lease will be up. Unless we hear about an extension, we can't just add to the list.

So far only 3 ATV SSN/SSBN are projected for the next 10 years. After 2022, we can expect all new submarines inducted to be SSN/SSBN. But in the next 10-12 years it is likely only 3 ATVs will be inducted. It is likely there will be indigenous SSN/SSBN on order and under construction during this time. Maybe you can add 2 of more (as a plus/minus) for margin of error.

D Roy wrote: And I definitely do not agree with the average 500 million dollar price he is estimating.

Its more like double of that. Just look at the project cost for the P-15B and P-17 A. Anything in 4000-8000 tonne category is coming in for a minimum of 7500 crores now.

Not to mention the Carriers and the SSNs. those are going to cost a hell of a lot if we want to make them contemporary, even with our lower labour costs. Productivity has to be enhanced.

And since we are including them in the average , the figure will much beyond 500 million.

If you read my post, I have said that the average is more than $500 million each. This is exactly what you are saying.

srai wrote: 1. Power Projection (Blue Water Operations)

Provided by: Aircraft Carriers, DDG, FFG, SSK, SSN, SSBN

Average cost per ship: more than $500 million each

...

...

Maybe I need to start bolding

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 13 Dec 2010 03:24

Pratyush wrote:
PratikDas wrote:Before shooting the messenger, it might be worthwhile noting that the image came from the Indian Navy's own document: http://indiannavy.nic.in/NavalAvnWebsite/005Mother-TheFlatTop.pdf
If the docment is official and not the project report of a cadet. Then the guy who approved it and the guy who wrote that report deserve a censure at the minimum.

Why???

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 13 Dec 2010 09:17

For presenting a proposed RN ship as a representation of IAC. When it is most definately not. For arm chair admirals like us it may be acceptable. But for professionals it is not.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Dec 2010 10:49

NRao wrote:A 2009 artists impression had F-15s.

That guy, who approved it, has resurfaced again.

Sigh.

Well you can't say that he's not getting wiser, At least the F-35 will have a naval version which the F-15 never had. We can look forward now to 2011 for the next surprise the Indian Navy artist will spring on us no

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 13 Dec 2010 13:17

Pratyush wrote:For presenting a proposed RN ship as a representation of IAC. When it is most definately not. For arm chair admirals like us it may be acceptable. But for professionals it is not.

Its really appalling. It is not accepted from the navy. HMS Queen Elizabeth and IAC are so very diff ships. I don't know how this error was made. And F35s???

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Dec 2010 18:31

The IN/DRDO has the capability to build at least 6 nuclear boats by 2020.Reports that components for three hulls are being readied by L&T came out when the ATV was launched.The speed of SSBN construction would depend upon the perfection of the ICBM supposed to being developed for the strategic deterrence.It would be preferable if the IN built its SSBNs first,as these would carry our N-missiles,while SSGNs coulkd be acquired either on lease or bought from Russia (Akulas,etc.).In any case after 10 years,it is entirely possible that the Chakra-our Akula-2/3,would be offered to us at depreciated value.There was even a recent report of a senior Russian analyst who wanted Russia to offer India even even larger Oscar class SSGNs (and Backfire bombers),specifically designed as carrier-killers,to deal with China's planned future carriers.The size of the missile silos on this class of sub is far larger than even the proposed size of our ATV ICBM silos!

The new larger sized Russian DDG/FFG designs which contain a very large missile capability are worth taking a look as follow ons after the Talwar class is complete.The Paki ambitions being sponsored by China,which reportedly also include newer larger DDGs and even a Han class SSN,will require a alrger number of dedicated ASW warships and an even larger inventory of subs,both nuclear and AIP.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Dec 2010 06:33

via Livefist:
India Navy Dhruvs?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 769480.jpg

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Dec 2010 12:03

The naval Dhruv has not been a success because of non-folding rotors,etc.Its capability,range and endurance also is less than existing Sea Kings,which is why the NH-90 looks like being the frontruner as ASW/multi-role helo replacement.The IN may buy some more for utility duties,but then even its tasks will be limited.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 14 Dec 2010 12:10

Indian Navy issue alert for West Coast

Following fresh intelligence inputs of possible terror attacks on Navy ships, India Navy has issued an alert for West Coast. As per a confidential note issued by Western Naval Command, Navy ships have been asked to maintain a distance of at least 200 meters from fishermen boats and Merchant navy vessels plying on the western coast.

“The Headquarters has received intelligence input regarding possibility of attacks on Indian Naval ship by explosive-laden fast boats and trawlers. The modus operandi in such attacks is that a boat laden with explosive closes the target ship, rams into it and explodes next to the ship,” a newspaper report quoting the confidential note as saying.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Dec 2010 12:10

to me the EC725 looks like a superior product than the NH90 for that role. mostly its similar but it has around 1t of extra payload, 400hp more peak power , and is also empty 1t lighter.

the SH60 specs are inferior to both of these.

the EH101 is a bigger bird ... if we want it perhaps the P15B can be designed with such hangers. its useful payload is about the same at 5ton vs the EC/NH but range at cruise speed is 1300km vs 800km a huge gap. for a round trip it maps to around 200km better combat radius / more endurance reserve if it needs to stalk ships / sneak back using a more circuitous route...and its cabin is bigger. addl safety margin of 3 engines....

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Dec 2010 15:49

The NH-90 appears to be the IN's preferred helo,size wise in particular,given the size of IN hangars aboard most warships,but who knows what political pressure might be brought to bear through the insidious "FMS",which puts US products at a significant advantage against other rivals.The KA-28s will also be upgraded as they have a lot of life left in them.Maybe some Sea Kings too which are in good condition.The helo acquisition is quite large,both for utility helos to replace naval Chetaks and Sea King replacements.I would love to see EH-101s aboard the carriers fitted with the new AEW radar system,plus some long endurance UAVs too.These will be able to give the carrier 24/7

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 14 Dec 2010 16:26

shiv wrote:via Livefist:
India Navy Dhruvs?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 769480.jpg

nice catch. but in what role they are employed in IN? SAR?

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 15 Dec 2010 07:11

Indian Navy's Filmy Night in Mumbai

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Dec 2010 12:58

Talking about using another's pic for your own product,the cake was taken by L&T,when it had posters/ads of the ATV which in fact was a British conventional sub!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 16 Dec 2010 10:29

Indian Navy floats interest for 2 free Swimming Deep Submergence Rescue Vessels

One of the parameters Indian navy is looking for is continuous operation for 72 hrs.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Dec 2010 12:25

Here's a report on Brahmos equipped Amurs on offer for the IN from Rubin.

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/scienc ... 954195.ece

Submarine launched Brahmos in advanced stage of development’

Submarine launched version of the supersonic BrahMos cruise missile is in final stages of development, and Russia says that the new Amur subs being offered to India have the capability to launch these weapons.

“The submarine launched version of Indo-Russian BrahMos is in the very advanced stage of development,” Chief of NPO Mashinostroyeniya (NPOM) Corporation Alexander Leonov here said.

Mr. Leonov said St. Petersburg-based Central Naval Design Bureau “Rubin” has already worked out options for the deployment of BrahMos missiles on the new “Amur—1650” conventional submarines offered to India, which can be launched from underwater position.

The new Russian conventional submarines will be equipped with tubes for launching them from underwater position, he said. India is facing problems in testing these strategic new missiles in the absence of a platform.

Indian Navy’s current range of submarines including Russian Kilo Class, German SSK and the French Scorpene under construction at Mazagoan docks under a Indo-French joint venture do not have the capability to launch these supersonic missiles.

NPOM is equity partner in the Indo—Russian BrahMos Aerospace JV. Mr. Leonov said India—based BrahMos Aerospace JV has signed new contracts with the Indian Air Force, Navy and Army for the delivery of cruise missiles through 2017, ARMS—TASS military newswire reported.

I was going through some lit. on sub commns.It is interesting to note that despite a century of sub warfare,subs have still not been fully integrated into fleet ops,becuase of commns. difficulties.From coastal defence ops,they became scouts on patrol and finally were best used as raiders of merchant shipping-the Atlantic War in particular.The advent of the Nuclear sub has dramatically tilted the balance in favour of the sub as against the surface ship,best seen in the sinking of the Belgrano in the Falklands War.Despite modern advances in sub-tech,the small size of scopes,antennas,etc., raised for the purpose when submerged,prevent the sub from getting a total picture of events.Commn. buoys are the best method for communications.

Nevertheless,the sub is steadily becoming the true vessel of seapower and with the advent of AIP conventional subs,the proliferation of subs is on the rise in every ocean.Extremely urgent action at augmenting the IN's shrinking active sub fleet,which has reached alarming levels today,must be taken immediately and the Amur+Brahmos sub is a fast-track option that must be seriously considered.A further buy of more advanced AIP Scorpenes/U-214/new design, can also be examined as a simultaneous programme.

Speaking of the Falklands,Adm.Sandy Woodward was interviewed on the final Harrier sortie made in Britain,where the aircraft is being untimely retired along with its acrriers,only because of budget cuts.This will result in Britain not having any carrier aircraft at sea for another 10 years! Adm.Woodward was very critical about the decision which he said should be reviewed.This gives the IN an excellent opportunity to pick up many of these aircraft,along with a carrier for amphib/multi-role ops,at a bargain price.We need several amphibious vessels and can use the Harriers and one of the small carriers just as the USMC does for amphib strike/helo support.

Finally the DSRV need is being acknowledged!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Dec 2010 13:19

Philip the UK pocket carriers are pieces of junk. the invincible's report on current condition is no better than what gorshkov was.

the harrier is a evolutionary dead end - IN realizes that and has planned for that first with Mig29K (deliveries on), NLCA (1st flight soon) and later maybe JSF (us navy CTOL version) to supplement the Mig29K.

we'd be far better off using the VSTOL version of JSF when we get LPH ships than pottering around with few use sea harriers.

when we get LPH is still unclear - so far there is not even a RFI floated to vendors to indicate the beginnings of a deal making thought process.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Dec 2010 13:32

Singha,I was thinking more of the Ark Royal,not the Invincible.The Harriers have another decade+ of life left in them,available in plenty and can be used on the Virat too,which has barely half-a-doz operational.The Vik/Gorky and IAC-1 can operate the MIG-29Ks,as the LCA-N is going to take some more time to appear,undergo trials and then be commissioned.The JSF as I posted earlier, has engine-size problems,delays,etc.,and at a cost of at least $130m! Also remember that the IN's old plan was to have 5 carriers.I know that that is v.unlikely given costs,etc.,but used mainly for amphib ops it will shorten the time to acquire such assets.You've correctly mentioned the fact that amphib vessel requests have not been announced and even if announced,will take at l;east 5-6 years before the first vessel of Mistral class size is commissioned.We could examine the options.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 16 Dec 2010 13:38

5 carriers INS-Viraat,IAC-1,IAC-2, INS-Vikramaditya, then IAC3 , IAC-4 ???

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Dec 2010 13:48

is the Viraat going to be retired moment the Gorky enters service which is like 3 yrs away ? or will they keep pushing it another 5 yrs beyond that ?

N-Tejas mk2 should make the cut if the VSTOL JSF turns up too costly. to take the war to south china sea, we need naval aviation that can deal with the best of PLAAF land based fighters. a sea going Raptor at $40 mil each would be ideal but perhaps a naval version of FGFA - it already has a very sturdy looking landing gear and TVC will help for takeoff ?

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 16 Dec 2010 13:51

even if we opt for JSF we are not gona get it till 2018+

than if we need fighters for IAC1-IAC2 we need other options may be f18 with a mature naval fighter

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Dec 2010 14:21

Until 2020,we will most likely have the Gorky/Vik (2012),IAC-1 (2015/16) and the Viraat,which has been refitted to serve until the end of the decade.Once the first two mentioned are operational,the stress on the Viraat will be less.However,a three-carrier navy will be required to meet the multiple threats emerging from the Sino-Pak combine and our expanding naval footprint into the S.China Sea and Pacific waters.When one of the carriers is undergoing repaiurs/refit,the third carrier would do duty,keping our capabilities of having a acrrier on both seaboards in the IOR.

The Viraat even now requires more STOVL Harriers,the only aircraft that can operate from it.IAC-2 most prbably will be an even larger carrier than IAC-1,especially as the plan plan a fleet of around 5 large carriers of 65,000t size.Therefore,IAC-2 will realistically appear only by 2020.Until then,the third carrier-Viraat ,will also need a stand-by/complement,and if a light amphib carrier such as the early-retired Ark Royal and her harrier complement was available on the cheap,would give the IN considerable flexibility and the ability to operate three carriers for most of the time.

With the Viraat's retirement in 2020,and the arrival of IAC-2,the Ark Royal would also then be due for replacement by the first of the new dedicated flat-top amphib op vessels of Mistral/Juan Carlos class,which have a "swing" role capability,providing air defence for the fleet,ASW ops,and air strikes supporting amphib ops.It is essential that these warships also be of such a size as the future requirements of our fledgling Marine force may grow to at least three divisions in size,requiring considerable logistic support.A large number of flat-top amphib. vessels will also be in service by then in several Asian countries including China.Oz is also building upto 4 Juan Carlos class LHPDs which will operate JSFs.A second large LHPD of similar size to the first would then meet the IN's requiremenmts and give us a 5 "flat top" capability.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Dec 2010 16:33

Brilliant pic of the 16 Harriers in formation in their farewell flight among others.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ewell.html

Last hurrah for the Harrier: Jump jets take to the skies for their final farewell

The Harrier jets have been axed after falling victim to a savage round of defence cuts. Their next stop, after being decommissioned next year, will be the scrapyard.

Introduced by the RAF in 1969, they were famed for their ability to hover above the ground, a distinctive feature which enabled them to fly in and out of areas close to a battlefield that conventional aircraft could not reach.

The 700mph Harriers played a crucial role in defending the nation’s interests, seeing action in every conflict from the Falklands — where they were known as the ‘Black Death’ by Argentine pilots, after shooting down 25 enemy aircraft without a single combat loss — to the two Gulf Wars and five years in Afghanistan.

The aircraft also flew combat missions in Bosnia, Kosovo and Sierra Leone, providing close air support to troops on the ground.
But the 79-strong Harrier fleet was axed in the coalition Government’s strategic defence and security review, saving less than £1 billion. The decision sparked controversy, because scrapping the 130 RAF Tornados — which were retained — would have saved £7.4billion.

PS:79 Harriers available! That is a huge amount of a great aircraft that is going to the scrap heap unless it is picked up by Harrier operating navies.This is a great once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to pick up such a quality product for the price of scrap! The aircraft can easily deal with almost all the aircraft in the PAF and has in-flight re-fuelling capability too.C'mon MOD/IN,look at it closely!